No, because Rinoa isn't a REAL princess, and she fails at life. Garnet was actually sweet and kind of awkward at first, but Zidane got her to open up. And Garnet's parent was a total douche bag of a woman at the time, and went so far as to try killing her. She had like no choice but to rebel, lmao. Rinoa was just being a whiney brat. I don't think these two are comparable at all.
And I don't think fans pulled Clerith out of their asses. =P I do see how they could get the impression, but I think they also ignore what happens in the game sometimes. There are things you have to consider, like the fact that Aerith never knew the real Cloud. And then when other games came out like Crisis Core saying that Aerith acted the way she did around Cloud because of Zack, I don't get why people still stick to what they thought in the original game. Now things are no longer optional and more expandable, things are getting settled. Cloud and Tifa have a life together, Aerith has become Mother earth. I could see potential Clerith in just FFVII alone, but it's more than that now. As for it crashing at her death, most fans seem to think it GREW at her death, lol.
I'm not saying these fit the cliches TO THE LETTER, btw. I'm using them as evidence to say 'okay, maybe this is where they're coming from'. I'm not saying it's right, just keeping an open mind. Aerith isn't a princess, no - I said in my second post on the matter that I made a mistake and was referring to the wrong cliche/trope.
Nor was I saying that every FF has characters that fall into these cliches. I specifically referenced IX, X, and Tactics for a reason - they do.
IX has Garnet, who is both the rebellious princess, as well as the 'last survivor of an ancient race' (as far as we know before Disc...2, I think). She's alsot eh game's primary (and by primary I mean BETTER) white mage. Because, let's face it - Eiko sucks. However, it's worth noting that Eiko ALSO has the hots for Zidane, so that part works no matter how you look at it. Freya, of course, has nothing to do with anything, though she fits the 'tough-as-nails female warrior that's not in love with the hero' part to the letter.
X has Yuna. Yuna is a Summoner, which, within the world, is fairly common, yes. However, she is the daughter of a HIGH Summoner, which are NOT common, and, as you see throughout the pilgrimage, bestows a kind of celebrity status upon her. She is the golden child of Spira, unlike the jealous bitch whose name escapes me atm (Dona, or something like that?). Also note the hullabaloo about Seymour marrying her, and the fact that she becamse a High Summoner herself, thus bestowing even greater popularity, etc. She is the white mage, as directed by the Sphere Grid until later in the game, making her the 'healing magic specialist'. She's also rather soft-spoken, or, at least, is for most of the game.
However, if we're to look at the 'rebellious princess' aspect...that's Rikku, who clearly has feelings for Tidus, and is the daughter of the leader of the Al Bhed. And those Al Bhed Potions sure are nice
FFT fits into this less with the 'sole survivor', and more with the rebellious princess, which is...what's her face (I haven't played in forever) the princess/noble that's kidnapped by the bad guys. Granted, she doesn't end up with the 'main character' (in fact, you could argue that she's forced to marry someone else), buuut...FFT is the story of how Delita became king, making him the ACTUAL main character, if you want to argue semantics.
'A lot of other games' refers to...well...other, non-FF games. Lunar i a great example, and Tales of Vesperia as well. I mean, c'mon...they're considered cliches for a reason. =/
On the subject of FFVIII - Rinoa fits the concept because she's the daughter of a big-shot general, not because she's ACTUAL royalty (which is lacking in FFVIII's world, if I recall). However, once she becomes a Sorceress, she does also gain that 'special girl' aspect. Yeah, it doesn't fit the two cliche concepts TO THE LETTER, but if you have a slightly more loose interpretation (rather than a strict one), it fits. It's not PERFECT, but it's there.
And their motives for rebelling aren't really the point. They're rebelling againt their parent, which is why it fits. =P (
although Garnet's mother wasn't actually her mom, soooo...
)
But just because something's a cliche, doesn't mean it always applies, either. The FFIV romance of Cecil/Rosa doesn't really fit any of those, though Rydia/Edge would...except Edge isn't the main character. Sooo...fail.
FFVI is a tricky one. PERSONALLY, and this is my OPINION (and I'm not going to take shit from anyone for having an opinion), I think that the game's 'main character' (male, anyway) is Locke. You control him more than most of the other characters, at least. There's more characterization and development and all that jazz. Celes and Terra are clearly the main female characters. However, Terra gets less story time than Celes. Hell, Celes is the first character you control when things go boom. It is my OPINION that she is the 'main character' (female). Locke x Celes is a pretty clear pairing. Celes isn't a PRINCESS, but she is a high-ranking member of the Imperial army whose loyalty does not remain with the Empire. You could interpret this as the rebelling princess, if you so chose, because the two concepts bear similarities, though they are not exactly the same. Now, I'm not saying I think that Celes fits that particular cliche (because I don't, at all), however, the point of view is certainly valid.
On the subject of IX- Pointing out that both girls fit a trope means that one of them doesn't mean the cliche is 'true', it means it's rigged.
Also, Eiko actually is the better healer, technically speaking. Garnet is far better as a Heavy Summon Bomber.
On X- Rikku's only sorta interested in Tidus, and mostly because of his relation to Yuna. She's really Rikku's focus the entire time.
On T- No, the story is about the true hero of the age, which is you, NOT delita.
Also, the princess is kind of 'who?' next to in game and fandom focus on Agrias.
Lunar 1 and Legends- fits the childhood friend trope in addition to special girl trope, though in Legends, there's no -getting-, and the specialness is refused in 1. In 2, it's valid, but then again, Hiro's an entirely different heroic archetype than Alex.
Referencing Tales games will really end up Zero Sum, with maybe a focus on fighter rather than healer chick. For reference, Rutee, Farah, Tear.
Celes is not a 'princess', literally or archetypally, nor is she 'rebelling' against a parental authority. Hell, Cid outright encourages her. No, she's actually CECIL'S trope of the Redemptive dark knight standing up against the rulers of a situation she helped create. Terra has a bit of Kain's 'I may have been controlled, but it is no excuse, I must make up for it' bit.
I'd love to discuss broad narrative structures all night, but I must adieu.
Yes clearly that scene where they talk about her Ex and ends with chasing after Tifa is the proof they were lovers. Or maybe it was the optional date scene?
Also, Dim or slight IS the actual meaning of the word, but related to detectability. 'I can slightly see the painting', or 'I am dimly aware', which is why Secret is literally incorrect, but might suggest the overall meaning better.
Can this be proven in a way that a reasonable educated person can`t deny it?
I have an issue with this "dim" or "slight" feelings translation and that it is understood as weak feelings. Especially Cleriths compare it to some kind of a highschool crush which you get over, over time. Literally, dim feelings/love implies that the feelings were weak, not of big importance, easily to get over, over time.
But this was not the case, maybe it wasn`t fully grown/developed/concrete Romantic love, because of his immaturity (he was very young after all), but the felt feelings had to be a lot stronger, they even had to be of big importance, if the person who these feelings are felt towards, is the key person who he shares the memories with, (and each one shows his strong affection towards her) that were the key memories that made him regain himself. (Memories locked deep within his heart)
Again:
If it were just weak feelings/a crush he would have probably get over her after leaving, which was not the case ("A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.").
A person in this young age doesn`t have to / can`t (fully) understand what romantic love is, but I`m claiming the feelings had to be strong/not weak because:
Quexinos said:
The three most important memories that end up bringing Cloud back together are about himself and Tifa.
These memories were the key to regain himself and therefore the most important ones.(Memories locked deep within his heart)
And these memories were mainly about himself and Tifa, which means that Tifa had to be a very important person to him.
The most important persons to us are the persons we have the strongest feelings towards.
We know that the feelings Cloud felt towards Tifa was and still is romantic ones.
And this is why I came to the conclusion that his feelings could not have been weak or just something like a “highschool crush”. Sure they probably weren`t fully developed but strong and the person they are felt towards important enough to be the key person that helped him to regain himself.
Also:
Tifa
"Talk to me. About anything, some important memory to you..."
"Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place?"
"I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......"
(Suddenly, the transparent Cloud high above speaks. Tifa doesn't hear.)
"......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The Cloud of the well echoes these same words.)
"......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The next words come only from the Cloud of the well.)
"I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice........."
Cloud says here that he wanted to join SOLDIER in order to be noticed by Tifa.
Now, that`s a rather too big goal just to impress someone you have dim or weak feelings towards.
Yeah I covered that. I know I've heard "Cloud wanted to be noticed by everyone and that's why he joined. It wasn't just Tifa." I mean yeah he says that but he ALSO singled out Tifa twice (I think or am I remembering the Japanese script and the English script at once?) I think that speaks volumes about his intent.
I figured it's time for some youtard quotes! The oldest is from a week ago.
youtards! said:
But just because Him and Tifa had kids doesn't mean he doesn't miss her and still love her. Cloud didn't glance away from Aerith/Aeris when she reappeared in the church with Zack. He stared at her and when she turned to walk tell me what his expression was. He still loves her, but he didn't end his life because she's gone.
..................
for you to deny any sort of feelings between the two means that you can't have a good grasp of their storyline. Yes, Aerith is with Zack at some point, but if you've watched AC, then you know that it is to Aerith that Cloud always turns when he doesn't know how to go forward and she is the one who offers him comfort
.................
Cloud may visit Zack's grave, but he lives in Aerith's church, not with Tifa. So he's constantly around someplace where he is reminded of her. And what scene does AC choose to end with? One in which Aerith is once again comforting Cloud and he realizes that he can move forward. Yes, there is some guilt, but that guilt is all the more pervading because of Cloud's feelings for Aerith.
.................
If during his greatest suffering and doubt he cannot live at 7th Heaven, then what does that tell you? Obviously he feels that staying there hinders him in some way. Cloud does spend time living at there too, point taken. But simply living with Tifa under the same roof does not mean they are in a relationship....And yes, Zack is there. But it is not to Zack that Cloud ever talks to. It's always Aerith. That means something.
Also if anyone from CxA is reading this now, since I can't reply there... the reason Tifa didn't write a letter to Cloud while he was in SOLDIER is because she didn't know where he was or even if he was there or not. She DID however write a letter to Zack ASKING about Cloud... so... yeah... the ball was in Cloud's court to contact HER first to let her know where he was.
But it is not to Zack that Cloud ever talks to. It's always Aerith.
Lot's of people ignore AC/C because the revisions seem to trample on their previous ideas about what AC was about. With Zack's increased role as helpful dead dude, the taking out of Aerith in the credits, and Cloud telling Marlene the real reason he left.
I'm all for people sticking by and defending their otp. And I can understand the Clerith thinking behind AC. But ACC strengthening the bond? Sometimes a loss is a loss.
@Quexinos
Ok I looked up something; it seems that honoka (仄か/側か/ほのか can also be understood as indistinct, which would make more sense in this case imo. And It doesn`t say anything about the strength of the affection/feelings.
I stay by my point that his affection/feelings towards her were and still are strong. The feelings were not weak! Except that, I mostly agree with you.
It`s a nice essay btw, congratulations. I enjoyed reading what you wrote.
Ok I looked up something; it seems that honoka (仄か/側か/ほのか can also be understood as indistinct, which would make more sense in this case imo. And It doesn`t say anything about the strength of the affection/feelings.
I know, but when I asked 3 people about it and they all told me weak/slight/vague, I'm more inclined to agree with them. Although I'm guessing knowing about the context helps out too.
The context is the main reason why I`m against this "weak" translation.
And I`m sure you know better than me that the japanese language is all about the context.
It's not a big deal if you think about it. It just means Cloud's love for Tifa grew into something even greater. I mean if he did all that when his love was "weak" imagine what his love is like now
The best way to understand "honoka" as "dim" -- and the reason that "secret" is the right choice for the translation into English -- is because the word refers to how clearly something is noticed by others. The word deals with perception, not with potency.
If Cloud fell in love with Tifa and it wasn't plainly seen by others, then he secretly fell in love with her.
can also be understood as indistinct, which would make more sense in this case imo. And It doesn`t say anything about the strength of the affection/feelings.