The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Vendel]

I pretty much agree with everything she said. But if some people see others saying that the flowers on Zack's grave are Zerithy, it's only natural some would think the flowers in the end of Dissidia are Clerith.

Except "Clerith" NEVER HAS NOR EVER WILL EXIST. Whereas "Zerith" has a basis in canon.

People that see "clerith hints" are idiots mistaken.

 

[Dashell]

People that see "clerith hints" are idiots mistaken.

And that's why these topics exist

 

[Ryushikaze]

The flowers on Zack's grave are not in and of themselves the symbolism.

The flowers, COMBINED WITH THE FUCKING SWORD IN THE CHURCH is the symbolism.

It's the RECIPROCAL MERGING OF THE SYMBOLS OF ZACK AND AERITH BY CLOUD in their symbolic places that makes this fucking symbolism.

So the next time you want to talk about AC/C vs Dissidia, remember that FLOWERS ON THEIR OWN ARE NOT WHAT MAKE THE SYMBOL IN THE END OF AC/C.

Got it yet? Can I stop screaming? Because I feel like I need to be screaming, because some people aren't fucking getting it.

Anything examined in isolation is not examined at all.

And BTW, Cloud stomping over flowers is totally not a 'good' Clerith hint.
Also, if we want to bring Dissidia shit into it, Aerith is relegated to the status of 'fallen comrade.'

Listen, the ending symbolizes people returning to their worlds. Both Squall and Cloud return to their worlds via the fields. Tidus goes home through water. Cecil goes home symbolized through the moon. Zidane goes home towards the sun, Bartz through the woods. These exits all symbolize PLACES, not PEOPLE.
It makes NO FUCKDAMN SENSE for Cloud to be the single exception, especially when he shares his exit background with someone else.

 

[Winter]

Except "Clerith" NEVER HAS NOR EVER WILL EXIST. Whereas "Zerith" has a basis in canon.

People that see "clerith hints" are idiots mistaken.

lol

 

[Vendel]

lol

Well, I didn't know you wanted to get involved with the discussion, Mr. Helper. But since you want to help, maybe you can help me, OK?

What are your feelings on the idea of clerith hints? Do you give weight to the idea that SE would throw either side a bone on the subject of Clouds love? Do you think that any mention of Aerith in a 50 mile radius of Cloud is somehow 'clerith'?

Or do you believe it is the thinking of a delusional shipper?

 

[Super Mario]

Hey guys sorry to bother the LTD but do you know the one who once posted 50 cent rolling with the muppets in a gif? please post it here. it'll be much appreciated. <3

 

[Vendel]

So someone tell me if this looks familiar. The reasoning that is.

Hmm, one of these topics. I may as well respond even though I can already tell I'm out numbered. To start off, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Cloud was in love with Aerith. I mean if he was in love with Tifa, he sure didn't show it. All he seemed to care about in Advent Children was Aerith.

But really there's no truth either way. You can play the game either way and I'll never understand why some fans insist on being "right" about how you play the game. There's no right or wrong way to play it. If you like Tifa, be nice to Tifa, if you like Aerith, be nice to Aerith. The thing I still don't get is that no matter what the outcome of the game, Cloud seems obsessed with Aerith in Advent Children, so to me Cloud and Aerith seems like the more likely couple that Square wanted.

Cloud loves Aerith. But there is no answer. But later on he is still obsessed with Aerith.

 

[Celes Chere]

I thought Cloud seemed more obsessed with his family, but okay. =P

 

[Max Caulfield]

If Cloud is obsessed with Aerith in AC/C, doesn't that also mean that he's also obsessed with Zack?

I mean, the two go hand and hand throughout the entire movie.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Drive by thread drop:

http://obstinatemelon.deviantart.com/gallery/#FF7-Comic

Funniest fucking thing EVER.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So someone tell me if this looks familiar. The reasoning that is.



Cloud loves Aerith. But there is no answer. But later on he is still obsessed with Aerith.

I always love reading these, because you always have to wonder... if they wanted X couple to happen, then why did they kill half of it?

It's like saying "Even though Leia married Han Solo in the EU, I really think the intended pairing for her was with luke. Incest? No, it wouldn't be incest, that wouldn't make any sense, they're a couple!" for all the backwardness of the thought process.

Neoseeker, I'm guessing?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seeing how the scene was called, "Understanding", I always thought that since Tifa had been in his head, she understood how he felt without him saying anything (since he didn't know what to say anyway). She didn't need him to make some lovey dovey speech (which would have been more awkward than anything, imo, it's CLOUD).

"Without words" can mean a lot of things, including, but not only sex.

Point of order. Was the night under the Highwind really called "understanding"? Or was it something someone made up?

It was something someone (Little Chiba) made up as a chapter title for the script they compiled for the game almost 12 years ago:
http://members.fortunecity.com/sephkatana/ff7stuff/ff7sc.html

For whatever reason, quite a number of people -- only Cleriths, actually =P (not a jab at any Cleriths; just an observation) -- reference it as though it were official, though.

Doesn't Cloud go off on deliveries for like, weeks at a time? If his job keeps him away, there's no reason to decorate his room.

And maybe he likes the smell of tires. Don't judge him.

Also Clouds office is not his bedroom. He had long hours but it was never stated he was away for weeks at a time.

Vendel's right. It's never said that he goes away for weeks at a time. In fact, the opposite is stated in Case of Tifa -- that he's home every night and leaves each morning.

It's on two separate occasions as well. Once when his delivery service is first discussed, where it's said that after taking up the business he was only at home in the evenings and in the morning, and again after Denzel joins the family, with it said that Denzel and Marlene would sit at a table with Cloud after hours while he drew up his schedule for the next day.

The point is also made on the second occasion that Cloud always made sure he had time for the kids at night.

also why would he need a wardrobe the guy has like two outfits.

That we've seen anyway. But the same is true for Marlene and Denzel, who do have furniture for clothing.

For that matter, the same is true of Tifa, and we've never even seen the room she sleeps in, but we wouldn't assume she doesn't have one, nor any other clothing, nor any furniture to put clothing in.

 

[Celes Chere]

Vendel's right.

Lol.

 

[Vendel]

Vendel's right.

Lol.

Don't hate me just because I'm beautiful. You'll find that it's really not unusual.

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't hate you because you're fat, you're fat because I hate you.

 

[Max Caulfield]

Don't hate me just because I'm beautiful. You'll find that it's really not unusual.

 

[Dashell]

Alright here goes. So you guys all know about FFG's Cloti perspective right? Well even though it's a joke or whatever, I've always been bothered by it. I always wanted to write up a "REAL Cloti perspective" but then thought "Meh what's the point?"... but I actually have a chance to show someone the real deal here with out the "liberties." I put in sources and such whenever I could. I know it's all repeated stuff and what not, but I want you guys to take a look at it and tell me what you think or if I should add anything or not. Also I'm using the "dimly fell in love with" translation because I don't want to get into a translation debate.


-----------------


Cloud and Tifa are left alone at the Highwind. ... no wait I'm going to start BEFORE that, because I think that's when Cloti really starts.

The real story of Cloti begins during the Lifestream event. It is in that moment when Tifa literally walks through Cloud's mind and sees the window to his past and true self. Many of Cloud's old memories and actions revolve around Tifa herself. In fact, the three most important memories that end up bringing Cloud back together are about himself and Tifa. The first memory is that Cloud would get into fights constantly because he was angry at himself for not being able to protect Tifa from falling Mt Nibel. The second memory is the night Cloud made the Promise to Tifa to come to help her if she ever needed it. This was significant to Cloud because Tifa had been called out to the water tower before by many other boys, but always turned them down. Cloud was the one she paid attention to which shows that even at the time, Tifa was taking an interest him even without knowing him that well. Cloud also had feelings for Tifa, but because he was young, they hadn't the time grow yet. This is IMO, why they were called "dim" or "slight" feelings, because his feelings changed to that of love overtime as he grew.

(SOURCE: Cloud's Crisis Core Ultimania Profile "Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he dimly fell in love with, and made a promise to protect her")

The promise also means much to Cloud, for it is forever etched in his mind/memory.

(SOURCE: Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile. "A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory."

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind.")

Cloud also decided to join SOLDIER because he wanted someone to notice him, and the one person he singles out, is once again, Tifa.

(SOURCE: FFVII "Cloud: If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......").

The third and final memory is of when Cloud defeated Sephiroth and came to Tifa's rescue even though he was a tad late. All of these memories show just how important Tifa is to Cloud. Even the young Cloud says to Tifa that she should tell the adult Cloud about how she was looking for information about him in the newspaper when he left. The younger Cloud knows the adult Cloud cares about Tifa a great deal and knows this will make him happy because his feeling have changed from slight feelings to that of love.

(SOURCE: FFVII:
Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."

*Young Cloud looks down.*

"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

*Tifa nods* )


It is then Tifa realizes just how important she is to Cloud and that those feelings he had when he was a kid have grown to love, and we know she still carries her feelings for him from when she was younger.

THIS is what Tifa and Cloud talked about under the Highwind. When they were left alone (left alone as in no one watched them even if they did have sex... )

(SOURCE: U20: As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."),

they realized how important they were to one another. They realized they loved one another and wanted to be by each other's side. They also related their feelings to each other without using words, which would indicate some form of romancing going on.

(SOURCE(s): "FFVIIUO, pg. 15: Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 198: When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

"CCU, pg. 33: She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

"FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition: Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary: And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." )

"U20 Scenario, pg. 394 VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match

"U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232: Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

"FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game"

"U20 Scenario, pg. 199: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book)

Later on, on the Highwind, Cloud and Tifa get teased momentarily. None of the friends actually saw what happened, but Tifa is very embarrassed obviously concerned about what they might have seen which furthur implies that something romantic happened. If not, Tifa is embarrassed for no reason at all. Cloud puts his hand behind his head as he's also embarrassed but not as much as Tifa. That moment is quickly forgotten as the story moves on.

After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud is lead back to his consciousness by Aerith, and is awakened just in time to save Tifa as she nearly falls to her death. Having seen Aerith's hand moments ago, Cloud speaks about the promised land, saying that he thinks he can find his fallen friend there. He is already looking for forgiveness from the one that he wronged and wishes to meet her again someday to be forgiven. Tifa agrees with Cloud and expresses an interest to see her fallen comrade as well.

At the start of CoT, Cloud smiles as Tifa stands by his side. Cloud expresses, once again, that he wishes for forgiveness for his sins. He believes starting a new life and living it the best he can will lead him to his salvation. And with a smile, he tells Tifa he believe he can do this now, and not fail like he has in the past, because he has her with him and he is very content with this.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)

When Case of Tifa progresses, Cloud and Barret build 7th Heaven as their home, and Barret decides at one point to leave. He leaves Marlene and Tifa and Cloud's care and calls them a family. Cloud begins to live like he said he would, and he's very happy with his new life. He even starts his own business and begins a delivery service. It is when this happens that things begin to change. Cloud starts to become distant and Tifa and Marlene notice this. This is because of the feelings of guilt he begins to feel. He had to deliver flowers to the Forgotten City which reminded him of how badly he failed Aerith. He begins to feel that because he could not protect his friends and those important to him, that he doesn't deserve this wonderful family he has. He starts to feel worthless and grows more and more distant as time goes on.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary: "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"

Nomura in Distance: "The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes.")

Because he grows so distant, Tifa becomes concerned and starts to wonder if their love for one another is enough to get through the crisis they are dealing with. She even becomes angry with Cloud because of his behavior toward her and Marlene and snaps at him a time or two. They are a couple in peril and many couples go through similar things like this. She asks Cloud one night if he loves her and he awakens perplexed for a moment. Afraid of the answer, she changes the question to ask if he loves Marlene to which he says, "Yes I just don't know how to approach her sometimes." Tifa then asks if they'll be okay, but doesn't get a response.

At some point during all this, Cloud begins visiting Aerith's church searching for salvation. One day when he's there he runs across Denzel, a young boy with Geostigma. He decides to bring Denzel back to join his family and Tifa agrees. They start to raise Denzel along with Marlene and their family life starts to get back to normal.

(SOURCE Case of Tifa: Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.)

One night Cloud tells Tifa that he feels Aerith brought Denzel to him and confesses to visiting the church. Tifa, not wanting Cloud to suffer alone, tells him that she'll go with him next time, and reaffirms his belief about Denzel, but adds that she believes Aerith brought Denzel to their home and family. Cloud smiles at hearing this, knowing that he has people who care about him and want to help. Tifa and his family are always with him and this makes him happy.

Shortly afterwards, Cloud begins searching for a cure for Denzel to redeem himself for his past sins;

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”

Tifa nodded silently.

“But maybe we can save the lives who are in a crisis just now. Maybe even I can do it.”

“You mean Denzel?”

“Yeah.”)

however one day when he's out and about, he comes in contact with the disease. He feels that his one shot at redemption is completely blown and once again, he feels worthless. He thinks he doesn't deserve the friends and family he has, so he runs away to hide himself from his shame, and begins to live in Aerith's church possibly looking for another chance for salvation.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary Timeline: "[ ν ] – εуλ 0009

· Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family.

· Because he contracted Geostigma, Cloud left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church."

FFVII 10th Anniversary Cloud's Profile: "Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.")

As FFVII AC goes on, Aerith is finally able to speak to Cloud to tell him to move on and that she never blamed him for anything. Thanks to Aerith, Marlene and Tifa, Cloud is able to fight again, and rises up to defeat Sephiroth once again. He wakes up in the church, surrounded by his loved ones, finally free of his guilt. This is truly his promised land. A place where he can live among his friends, and family without guilt or insecurities. As Aerith leaves along with Zack, Cloud smiles and think to himself that he isn't alone. He isn't alone because he has his family and he knows they will be there for him and he doesn't have to suffer alone and that his family and friends will always be there for him.

 

[Vendel]

After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud is lead back to his consciousness by Aerith, and is awakened just in time to save Tifa as she nearly falls to her death. Having seen Aerith's hand moments ago,

What?

Because he grows so distant, Tifa becomes concerned and starts to wonder if their love for one another is enough to get through the crisis they are dealing with. She even becomes angry with Cloud because of his behavior toward her and the children.

Wasn't it just the three of them at that point?

As FFVII AC goes on, Aerith is finally able to speak to Cloud to tell him to move on and that she never blamed him for anything. Thanks to Aerith, Marlene and Tifa, Cloud is able to fight again, and rises up to defeat Sephiroth once again.

His conversations with Vincent and Zack should make them worthy of being included in this.

He wakes up in the church, surrounded by his loved ones, finally free of his guilt. This is truly his promised land. A place where he can live among his friends, and family without guilt or insecurities. As Aerith leaves,

And Zack.

Cloud smiles and think to himself that he isn't alone. He isn't alone because he has his family and he knows they will be there for him and he doesn't have to suffer alone and that his family and friends will always be there for him.

You should also mention something about him being the one to cure Denzel and Tifa's "reassuring" smile.


Otherwise not bad. I've seen better. But not many.

 

[Dashell]

What?

I was under the impression that this is what happened since Aerith's theme starts up.

Wasn't it just the three of them at that point?

Oh yeah... whoops...

You should also mention something about him being the one to cure Denzel and Tifa's "reassuring" smile.

Good idea.

Thanks.

 

[Isabella]

Looks good, Q.

 

[Dashell]

Thanks, also I think there's 3 quotes that say the happier Cloud is, the more miserable he becomes... I can't find the third one. Did I Just dream that or is there only two?

EDIT:
Okay added a couple edits to it.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't want to get into a translation debate.

This is why this thread is no fun. No transration battoruzu.

 

[Dashell]

Oh I'm sorry, Hito please tell me why it's secret instead of dim or slight even though I had a Japanese native tell me it was slight

 

[Vendel]

even though I had a Japanese native tell me it was slight

And the source for that? Your pinker buddies?

 

[Dashell]

No, a friend's friend actually