The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Vorona]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Can anyone name some of the inconsistencies that are in MotP? I'm in a debate and have been asked for some, but I can't think of any off the top of my head :-\

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

- The date (and how?) Aerith met Zack?

- Hojo being in the Lifestream before the battle with Sephiroth. In DC, there's still life signs from in after the battle with Sephiroth (when the opening of DC takes place), but if Hojo's soul at returned to the planet that seems unlikely. Return to the planet = dead, isn't it?

 

[Frostwave]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Also, wasn't there a difference with how much of the Lifestream Aerith was able to utilize? I believe Maiden says she calls forth all of its power, but it was really only a portion?

I haven't read Maiden in a while, though. XD

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg7185#msg7185 date=1231613283]
- The date (and how?) Aerith met Zack?

- Hojo being in the Lifestream before the battle with Sephiroth. In DC, there's still life signs from in after the battle with Sephiroth (when the opening of DC takes place), but if Hojo's soul at returned to the planet that seems unlikely. Return to the planet = dead, isn't it?
[/quote]

Yes, Hojo couldn't have contributed his lifestream power to Sephy's efforts as he wasn't dead yet.

Maiden Also says something about 'first attracted her to him five years ago' as well as 'light taste of first love', both of these are very very wrong thanks to CC.

And the 'all the souls of the lifestream' vs 'used a portion' the Ulti says.

But even if it wasn't being ignored, remind the person you're arguing with that it hurts, not helps the C/A position, and furthers the C/T one.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Also, what about Benny confirming that MotP wasn't supervisied? 'cause SE never stated officialy that they supervised MotP.
I remember someone mentioned Benny's site with that quote, but I never saw it myself :-\

 

[A]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Does anyone mind if they can explain to me about the end of the movie, with the song Calling? Are there really lyrics there, and is it really based on Cloud and Aerith's relationship? I have no idea because I haven't seen the end credits...

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Benny: Studio Bent Stuff's site have comments about their books from the staff. For the FFVII UO, Benny's talks about how the head editor came to him and told him to write a story about Aerith. He mentions nothing about being supervised by Nojima or anyone else, though.

Calling: The song was written around a decade before FFVII was made by someone who has nothing to do with Square, so there's little chance it was written about Cloud and Aerith's relationship. There are lyrics, but them being about Cloud/Aerith is just someone's take on them. All that's been said about it is Nomura saying that the song was there to show Cloud's state of mind or something.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Eh? "Calling" is an old rock ballad from the 1980s. Its lyrics deal with fighting back against adversity, instead of giving up and letting it kick you in the ass. It's relevant to Cloud's tale, but has nothing to do with CloudxAerith.

 

[A]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg7253#msg7253 date=1231637768]
Benny: Studio Bent Stuff's site have comments about their books from the staff. For the FFVII UO, Benny's talks about how the head editor came to him and told him to write a story about Aerith. He mentions nothing about being supervised by Nojima or anyone else, though.

Calling: The song was written around a decade before FFVII was made by someone who has nothing to do with Square, so there's little chance it was written about Cloud and Aerith's relationship. There are lyrics, but them being about Cloud/Aerith is just someone's take on them. All that's been said about it is Nomura saying that the song was there to show Cloud's state of mind or something.
[/quote]
But if it refers to Cloud's state of mind, then wouldn't that mean it would be meant for Aerith, because Aerith is with him in that scene?
Sorry about asking this question... I'm a Cloti, really! I love Cloti, but I guess I've kind of been wondering after reading the Clerith Calling essay.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aerith is not "with him" in that scene. I hesitate to even call it a "scene"; it's just the closing credits. He's driving around making deliveries. She's watching over, unseen. He never sees her. The script says this. Any theories about him stopping to chat with Aerith in flower fields is simply fan imaginations running away with themselves.

 

[A]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg7258#msg7258 date=1231638736]
Aerith is not "with him" in that scene. I hesitate to even call it a "scene"; it's just the closing credits. He's driving around making deliveries. She's watching over, unseen. He never sees her. The script says this. Any theories about him stopping to chat with Aerith in flower fields is simply fan imaginations running away with themselves.
[/quote]
So they only had that song because Nomura liked it, right?

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Yes, because he liked it, and because the theme of the song (fighting back instead of giving up) does coincide with Cloud's story in AC.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Not everything has to do with Aerith all the time. Sometimes a song for Cloud is just a song for Cloud.

 

[A]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=53.msg7262#msg7262 date=1231639074]
Not everything has to do with Aerith all the time. Sometimes a song for Cloud is just a song for Cloud.
[/quote]
I just looked back at the lyrics, and I agree that it focuses on Cloud; it talks about Cloud's sadness and pain, and everything he's endured!
Thanks so much you guys =) Sorry about the trouble!

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

It's no trouble.

Bito, you were astute in naming this a love triangle discussion thread rather than a debate thread. It's become a "cut through the pink bull" thread. =D

 

[Tir McDohl]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

It's become a "cut through the pink bull" thread.

Heh. Well, keeping to that theme, I came across this sort of "out there" interpretation of Sephiroth's reasoning behind some of his in-game actions.


From...where else, the C/A forum. Specifically, the Northern Crater. It's sort of long, but:

Cloud and Aerith were Sephiroth's greatest obsticles in summoning Meteor and therefore, those were his two main targets; Cloud was a constant and Aerith suddenly came up.

So there, Sephiroth takes out one target and has one left to go. But why not kill two birds with one stone and get rid of one target and majorly devistate the other to the point where the remaining target barely has the will to go on. Sephiroth more than liekly new the destruction it would cause Cloud to lose Aerith regardless of how it happened but Sephiroth, being the mad man that he is, decided to wait for Cloud to find her and then bring the devistating blow and kill Aerith in front of him. He didn't so much kill her as ALLOWED her to live up to a certain point. What he didn't time correctly, I suppose, is her summoning Holy. But once he saw that she was alone, it would've been to easy to kill her and have Cloud find her dead at the altar in the Forgotten City.

So he let Cloud chase after her. Sephiroth practically used the opportunity to bait Cloud, having him chase the one he cherished most in hopes that he'd find her. He let Cloud find her and speak with her one last time. He gave let Cloud believe that everything was going to be okay up until the VERY last moment, the tiniest bit he could allow. And the suddenly, when Cloud would think that no harm has been done and Aerith can safely return to him, Sephiroth swoops down from above and takes all Cloud holds dear. How's that for devistating? He played Cloud like a fool and really let him have it where it hurts the most.

He taunts him, telling him that Aerith will become part of the Planet and even then she will be in pain once Meteor strikes. Sephiroth continues to tease and torture him with the fact that her soul will continue to suffer even though she's dead. Like Angel Alex mentions, he binds Holy, Aerith herself, to prevent what she set out to do. He mind controlled Cloud to beat Aerith at the Temple of the Ancients, he came into Cloud's dream to show him, "Yes, I'm going after her. Yes, I will take her away." Thus causing Cloud to spiral into a frenzied panic to find Aerith as soon as possible.

Not once, not ONCE do I remember Sephiroth going to such lengths to bring such pain and torture to Cloud by using Tifa. You could say he tried to kill her during the Niblehiem incident but that was only because she was brazen enough to try to take him on herself. Sephiroth, I'm sure, was well aware of the importance of Aerith to Cloud's life and by using her to bring pain to him, in a way, Aerith was the ultimate weapon against Cloud BECAUSE he cared so much for her. Sephiroth was using Cloud to hurt was he loved most and because of that, Cloud was being torn apart. Sephiroth would've probably continued that had he not discovered Aerith's plans to summon Holy. So he got rid of her AND damanged Cloud both permanently and devistatingly. By killing Aerith in front of Cloud, Sephiroth brought Cloud to his knees. He devistated him in the present and that one night is what continues to haunt Cloud. Sephiroth gave him the ultimate wound that would continue to haunt Cloud forever because even though he realizes he's not alone at the end of AC, Sephiroth, always being present in his mind even slightly, can continue to taunt him with her death almost saying, "You couldn't do a thing."

In AC, this proves to be true because when the question of what is most precious to Cloud comes up, Aerith comes to mind immediately. Yes, Tifa and the kids come up later, but Aerith was first in his mind, because she was the most precious thing that Sephiroth took away. Sephiroth took his home, his mother and his best friend. But of all those things, the most precious of them all, the one that holds the most value to Cloud's heart was Aerith. Tifa and the kids are what COULD be taken away. In a sense I viewed that scene as, yes, Tifa and the kids are extremely precious to Cloud and they could be taken away because they're still there, alive and in danger. So Cloud fights. But Cloud first thinks of Aerith and the way I viewed it was, Sephiroth's already taken her away, the most important person to him, what more could he lose? And then that's when the thought of Tifa and the children come up, because he could lose them too. Besides, if they wanted to illustrate Aerith as being important, then WHY would they show her three times? I'm just saying that on SE's part, that was bold move.

Cloud promised to protect Aerith and knowing that she died while under his care, knowing that he had to protect her because it was his duty and later, because he felt he had to because he grew to love her, is what would hurt the most. Sephiroth is a very intelligent man because he knew here to hit Cloud the hardest. And he got it right on the nose. Not once did I see him focus that much attention on Tifa. Why go to all the trouble of getting rid of Aerith if he didn't believe that Cloud cherished her so much? Sephiroth's a smart cookie; if I were him, I would've done the same thing because no other event, I believe, that's been shown to us has caused Cloud that amount of pain.

And that, ladies and gents, is why I think Sephiroth was Cleris and he used that to his advantage. I think everyone was aware of the affection growing between Cloud and Aerith during the time that she was alive, hence why a few of them, after giving their respects to Aerith, tried to comfort Cloud at the time of her death. They more than likely knew the saddness he felt at losing someone who, probably very obviously to them, he cared for as more than a friend.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I see again that 'thought of her first' means she's most precious, and not the family which flashes thrice at the climax, and Sephiroth was wanting to take that which was most precious to Cloud away from him, meaning he had not done so already. If he had already done this, and KNEW he had done so to years prior, why would he ask this in their battle?

BTW, 'Thus causing Cloud to spiral into a frenzied panic to find Aerith as soon as possible' is raw BULLSHIT. Tifa had to convince Cloud to come along. He initially did not want to go.

The thing is, Sephiroth doesn't see the party as a threat to his plans. He wants to fuck with Cloud, but he considers him a toy and a tool, not a threat, nor the rest of the party. He only killed Aerith because Holy was a threat to his plans. He told Cloud about it because he wanted Cloud to know powerlessness. "I can tell you exactly what I plan on doing and you can't even stop me".

I've said it before and will again- IF Aerith was the thing of utmost importance to Cloud, you would expect her to at least APPEAR in the core of Cloud's being, and you would not expect his tender memories and secret wishes to not revolve around another girl entirely.

 

[A]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg7266#msg7266 date=1231640168]
It's no trouble.

Bito, you were astute in naming this a love triangle discussion thread rather than a debate thread. It's become a "cut through the pink bull" thread. =D
[/quote]
Mind if I ask you another question concerning the whole "Tifa Jealousy thing?"

There's a quote in the Ultimania where it says:

?Both of them share feelings for Cloud ? — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

What do you think of this 'bond' that Cloud and Aerith are forming? Because I'm not sure what you guys think on this...

 

[Madame Mayor]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aerith seemed very close to Cloud right after they had met. To Tifa, who doesn't know why (Zack), it seems like Cloud and her already have this special bond. But in the end, it's not a romantic bond, and this is before Tifa knew about Cloud's feelings for her, or Cloud was his real self.

 

[Vorona]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Ah cheers, I shall be sure to bring all those points up. There are more of them than I'd thought.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aerith is not "with him" in that scene. I hesitate to even call it a "scene"; it's just the closing credits. He's driving around making deliveries. She's watching over, unseen. He never sees her. The script says this. Any theories about him stopping to chat with Aerith in flower fields is simply fan imaginations running away with themselves.

Does anyone have a link or scan of that part of the script?

Im currently debating at Northern Crater and it seems like Clerith see Cloud and Aerith meeting in Calling.
I wonder if it help though, since I provided a scan that says Cloud was smiling at Tifa in the end, not Aerith, but Clerith continue to bash me for twisting the ending

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Aerina link=topic=53.msg7336#msg7336 date=1231696022]
Ah cheers, I shall be sure to bring all those points up. There are more of them than I'd thought.

[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg7217#msg7217 date=1231624930]
But even if it wasn't being ignored, remind the person you're arguing with that it hurts, not helps the C/A position, and furthers the C/T one.
[/quote]

Oh yes, i've brought that up. Going on 3 times now. And so far they have all completly ignored that point and have instead decided to keep talking about how LO isn't canon and Maiden is. Even though, like you say, it damages Clerith more than helps it. You'd think they'd be the first ones to ignore it
[/quote]

It's worth pointing out that LO had been included in every relevant Ulti since its creation, whereas maiden has not, in addition to the cavalier disregarding of it SE has done.

[quote author=spirit_chaser link=topic=53.msg7341#msg7341 date=1231699763]

Does anyone have a link or scan of that part of the script?

Im currently debating at Northern Crater and it seems like Clerith see Cloud and Aerith meeting in Calling.

Firstly, get on their case about caliing the credit sequence 'calling' or 'a calling music video'.

I wonder if it help though, since I provided a scan that says Cloud was smiling at Tifa in the end, not Aerith, but Clerith continue to bash me for twisting the ending

It probably won't convince the pinkers, but it's not the hardline people you want to convince. They are simply a bonus. As for scans of the script, I don't, but I do know other people in this thread have it. You might want to echo your quoting of the script with Uematsu's reading of the script and writing Cloud Smiles for the smile that was in the script (which is the smile to Tifa), and the Cloud's shy smile entry in the Ulti which shows his smile immediately after the zoom in to Tifa, before Zack and Aerith appear.

Also, laugh at them and tell them they're calling the kettle black as far as ending twisting goes.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Cloud thinking of Aerith first in the Sephiroth battle means she's most important, and Aerith appearing last in the relay battle means she's most important.

Having pictures that looks like fields on the walls means Cloud visits fields to be with Aerith, but having the photo of Tifa and the children on his desk just means he's miserable with them.

Cloud goes to meet Aerith in AC's credits despite nothing being seen and the script saying differently, but when the Highwind scene fades out it could mean anything means he rejected her all night long.

 

[spirit_chaser]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Firstly, get on their case about caliing the credit sequence 'calling' or 'a calling music video'.

I spend four posts trying to point out that Cloud didnt stop his bike during Calling and failed =D

It probably won't convince the pinkers, but it's not the hardline people you want to convince. They are simply a bonus. As for scans of the script, I don't, but I do know other people in this thread have it. You might want to echo your quoting of the script with Uematsu's reading of the script and writing Cloud Smiles for the smile that was in the script (which is the smile to Tifa), and the Cloud's shy smile entry in the Ulti which shows his smile immediately after the zoom in to Tifa, before Zack and Aerith appear.

Also, laugh at them and tell them they're calling the kettle black as far as ending twisting goes.

I already lost count how many times I brought up Cloud's smile for Tifa, the Promise scenes in every FFVII game/movie etc... Pinks keep ignoring it or calling it Cloud's natural concern for his friend

Cloud thinking of Aerith first in the Sephiroth battle means she's most important, and Aerith appearing last in the relay battle means she's most important.

Having pictures that looks like fields on the walls means Cloud visits fields to be with Aerith, but having the photo of Tifa and the children on his desk just means he's miserable with them.

Cloud goes to meet Aerith in AC's credits despite nothing being seen and the script saying differently, but when the Highwind scene fades out it could mean anything means he rejected her all night long.

 

[Isabella]

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

From what I've seen in debates, Cleriths write off the script as useless because there are a couple of scenes in it that didn't make the final cut of the film.

I would love for someone to show me any script from any movie that is an exact replica of the finished product. If such a thing exists, it's because it was rewritten after the film was finished. Does that make all scripts useless?

And here's a peeve of mine that never seems to be addressed: Cloud putting his past behind him and moving on with his family vs. Cloud meeting Aerith in flowerfields are two different conclusions to his story. You can't give a character a new resolution without making substantive changes along the way. If SE decided at the last moment to give Cloud a resolution that's a 180-degree shift from where the script had him going, why weren't related changes made to the rest of the script?