The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

Tir McDohl · Jan 11, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

From what I've seen in debates, Cleriths write off the script as useless because there are a couple of scenes in it that didn't make the final cut of the film.

Yeah, like when Cloud "sees Aerith through the misty spray" and she says "Let's go, Cloud", or something like that.

As if the exclusion of that scene has any effect whatsoever on the story. And, who knows, it may be in ACC, anyway. But, I hope not. They're already stretching things with Aerith.

And one thing they really hate is that the script says that Kadaj reaches for a hand that he SEES there, which puts even more of a hurtin' on their "only Cloud(and for some reason, children)can see Aerith.

Does anyone have a link or scan of that part of the script?

Im currently debating at Northern Crater and it seems like Clerith see Cloud and Aerith meeting in Calling.

I own the Limited Edition that included the script. I'd be glad to show it to whoever.

I'll scan it later, but for now:

[80]A FARAWAY PLAIN, ROAD

As Cloud rides off on his motorbike into the world, the landscape grows more vivid as the screen's chroma slowly increases. (Composite with real-life shots.)

[90] FLOWER PATCH

Vestiges of Aerith(nothing with any presence in reality)silently watch Cloud as he rides away. Aerith looks a little lonely, but then she smiles.

Though, they will most likely harp on the fact that there's no whitespace(which, I don't know for sure, but I took to mean that it meant she wasn't interfering in the real world when it wasn't there), and that she looks more "solid" there.

Strangelove · Jan 11, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Most of the differences aren't major enough to change the meanings of the scenes. They play out differently, but are still the same basic scenes with the same basic effects.

And the credits don't even conflict with the script. Film is a collaborative process, so not everything is going to stay exactly the same. Even if the director wrote it, they can still change their mind about it. Just because the direction isn't the same in every scene shouldn't mean the whole thing is useless.

Otherwise that was a pointless extra for the very expensive Japanese limited edition (and cheaper American one). It's not different enough from the final film to be interesting in that respect, and it's meaningless in regards to getting a better understanding of the film? What was the point, then?

spirit_chaser · Jan 11, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I own the Limited Edition that included the script. I'd be glad to show it to whoever.

I'll scan it later, but for now:

[80]A FARAWAY PLAIN, ROAD

As Cloud rides off on his motorbike into the world, the landscape grows more ivid as the screen's chroma slowly increases. (Composite with real-life shots.)

[90] FLOWER PATCH

Vestiges of Aerith(nothing with any presence in reality)silently watch Cloud as he rides away. Aerith looks a little lonely, but then she smiles.

Thanks so much xd;

Cleriths main argument on that scene is that since Aerith is present and SE confirmed nothing (lets ignore the script, it means absolutely nothing), that means Cloud rides to meet her in that flowerfield.

Tir McDohl · Jan 11, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Cleriths main argument on that scene is that since Aerith is present and SE confirmed nothing (lets ignore the script, it means absolutely nothing), that means Cloud rides to meet her in that flowerfield.

And when they do bother trying to argue the script, it's always "Aerith appears without whitespace, meaning she has crossed over fully into reality"(wtf?), or "Do you see Aerith smiling? The script says she's smiles, but she doesn't!".

And the whole "vestiges of Aerith" gets hammered at, because they believe since Aerith could touch Cloud in whitespace, she's solid and as real as any living person, and that the absence of whitespace means there are no more barriers between them.

But was Aerith really physically touching Cloud in the first place?

Otherwise that was a pointless extra for the very expensive Japanese limited edition (and cheaper American one). It's not different enough from the final film to be interesting in that respect, and it's meaningless in regards to getting a better understanding of the film? What was the point, then?

Yeah, other than shoving it at Clerihs, it is useless. And, of course, they just ignore it anyway. So...

Well, I did get some nice postcards with my LE copy! XD

Madame Mayor · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

But was Aerith really physically touching Cloud in the first place?

No. Aerith never has a physical form in AC.

Part of the problem is though there is lots of evidence to disprove that Cloud is riding out to meet Aerith, ask them for their proof of it. Ask them where it's stated that Cloud is going out to meet Aerith, where it's stated that Aerith is actually there and that Cloud even sees her, etc. They need to provide that first before you need to start disproving it.

Ryushikaze · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

And that applies to things in general, NOT just to the flowerfield claim.

When you make a claim, you have made a declaration without any inherent validity, which needs to be supported by sufficient evidence to give it validity. The more outrageous the claim, the higher quality of evidence required.

Put simply, when the Clerii claim Cloud loved Aerith, period, demand they provide evidence, because without that basic premise validated, NONE of the subsequent conclusions can even approach validity.

OneWingedDemon · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aerith is never solid in AC.
Even in the Bahamut scene there is a clear zoom on the tendrils of Lifestream. Yes, Cloud and THE REST see her whole, but that's only an image. She's not actually there.
Aeris isn't physically pulling Cloud into a different world and off his fucking bike to stand behind him. That's ridiculous.
He is still on his bike and Aeris isn't physically there.

When Galadriel appears to Frodo to give him strength when he's out of Shelob's humble home, she isn't physically there, despite the white light and falling leaves and her looking pretty fucking solid.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyFPtapPLbo"]YouTube - Galadriel and Frodo out of Shelob's Lair[/ame]

A · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Does anyone have an answer regarding to Tifa's 'complex feelings,' on Cloud and Aerith's special bond? *cries* I don't know what that means...
And wait, I thought she held his hand?

spirit_chaser · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Part of the problem is though there is lots of evidence to disprove that Cloud is riding out to meet Aerith, ask them for their proof of it. Ask them where it's stated that Cloud is going out to meet Aerith, where it's stated that Aerith is actually there and that Cloud even sees her, etc. They need to provide that first before you need to start disproving it.

Though I provided all evidence needed, Cleriths keep ignoring it. How they often do, anyway.

Does anyone have an answer regarding to Tifa's 'complex feelings,' on Cloud and Aerith's special bond? *cries* I don't know what that means...

Zacloud formed a "special" bond with Aerith. Tifa's feelings were complex, because she wasn't aware of the real Cloud's feelings.
"Special" bond doesn't necessarily mean "love", too. For example, Aeirth's feelings for Tseng were described as "special", but it was never confirmed that she was in love with him.

Fighter · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=butterflybookmark link=topic=53.msg7461#msg7461 date=1231751670]
Does anyone have an answer regarding to Tifa's 'complex feelings,' on Cloud and Aerith's special bond? *cries* I don't know what that means...
[/quote]

Don't fret over it. It means exactly what it says. Tifa's feelings towards Aerith are complicated because on one side Aerith was a cherished friend, on the other side her connection to Cloud is having a negative effect because he can't get over his guilt. Plus Aerith was once a rival for Cloud's affection and Tifa feels uneasy about Cloud's actions as any woman would.

Does that mean Cloud's 'special bond' means he's in love with Aerith? Just look at the facts.

- Kingdom Hearts manual says Cloud has a special bond with Sephiroth. Need I say more about 'special bond'?

- The nature of Cloud's connection with Aerith is explained in 10th Ultimania. She symbolizes his inability to protect people important to him.

- Cloud's actions have been explained a dozen times by now in various official sources. 1) He fears losing his family because he will fail them like he failed people before. 2) He is dying of Geostygma. It's not because he wants to be with Aerith.

- Tifa is the lover. If that 'special bond' quote is about love then Aerith's different bond is not one of lovers because that's Tifa's stated role.

So don't worry about it.

Tir McDohl · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aerith is never solid in AC.
Even in the Bahamut scene there is a clear zoom on the tendrils of Lifestream. Yes, Cloud and THE REST see her whole, but that's only an image. She's not actually there.
Aeris isn't physically pulling Cloud into a different world and off his fucking bike to stand behind him. That's ridiculous.
He is still on his bike and Aeris isn't physically there.

When Galadriel appears to Frodo to give him strength when he's out of Shelob's humble home, she isn't physically there, despite the white light and falling leaves and her looking pretty fucking solid.

Exactly. I thought it was obvious that Aerith wasn't phsically there. It'd be pretty dumb of SE to make Aerith "barely dead"; it'd be way worse than what they've already done. Well, at least Aerith stopped popping up after AC.

Ha. For all their babble about spiritual love and how death cannot stop love, the Clerii sure are hung up on the physical, aren't they?

And one thing I never got, beyond the fact that the Clerii will latch onto one thing and try to change everything else to support that, is why they think showing Aerith first, and more than other people, mean Cloud cherishes her the most? Like Ryu(I believe) mentioned, they break up the shots of Aerith with the one of Zack. And also, they show Zack before Tifa, y'know? Is Zack more important to Cloud than Tifa?

Don't Cleriths look for holes in their arguments before they tote them as fact?

Ryushikaze · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Aeris isn't physically pulling Cloud into a different world and off his fucking bike to stand behind him. That's ridiculous.
He is still on his bike and Aeris isn't physically there.

An amusing side note: someone described this scene as Cloud not paying attention to the road, as if he had a choice.
This is why psionic conversations need a 'hold' button.

[quote author=Naoto Shirogane link=topic=53.msg7577#msg7577 date=1231793007]Exactly. I thought it was obvious that Aerith wasn't phsically there. It'd be pretty dumb of SE to make Aerith "barely dead"; it'd be way worse than what they've already done. Well, at least Aerith stopped popping up after AC.[/quote]

The less death affects Aerith, the less her death means. The same with Zack, but he doesn't get as whored out.

Ha. For all their babble about spiritual love and how death cannot stop love, the Clerii sure are hung up on the physical, aren't they?

Recall that these are the people who insist that 'Clotis' are simply obsessed with sex. They're just projecting.
It's especially hilarious with AA, who thinks all guys who recognize Cloud and Tifa imagine their life as an endless sexual orgy... and wrote a Cloud and Aerith ghost sex lemon.

And one thing I never got, beyond the fact that the Clerii will latch onto one thing and try to change everything else to support that, is why they think showing Aerith first, and more than other people, mean Cloud cherishes her the most? Like Ryu(I believe) mentioned, they break up the shots of Aerith with the one of Zack.

I have before, but not in this thread as I recall. I was more interested in Tifa and the kids being presented seperately and then together at the very climax before he returns to kicking bishy keister.
The inclusion of Zack in the beginning kind of makes the distinction obvious- 'People I lost who I cared about,' and 'People I care about I am not going to lose.'

And also, they show Zack before Tifa, y'know? Is Zack more important to Cloud than Tifa?

Yes. Because she's a clingy bitch according to the Pinkers.

Don't Cleriths look for holes in their arguments before they tote them as fact?

That they try and use Marketing as teh proofzes? Hell no.
To say nothing of trumpeting the meanings of Itadaki Street Special or Dissidia without ever playing the damn games.
I'm quite amused that they thought 'Great Gospel' and 'Princess guard' were Clerith reference when it didn't even appear in arcade mode. I guess Venus Gospel appearing in story mode means we've got a Cloud/ Cid romance in the wings too.

Or the fact that weapons bearing her weapons' names apparently appear in Dissidia... none of which can be wielded by Cloud.
Or how the Flowerfield means ZOMFG true Clerith evidence when it has more to do with Firion's dream than anything else.

Frostwave · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Hee! A while ago, someone showed me the Itadaki opening, and said that it was very meaningful that Cloud was shown walking with Aerith. They also said that Aerith and Cloud were standing right next to each other, just as every other canon couple was.

But, no. Tidus and Yuna weren't next to each other(like that means anything anyway), and there is actually a part where Cloud is speaking to an animated Tifa, alone, without Aerith, while our cute little flowergirl seems to be talking/being chatted up by...Angelo or someone? I couldn't tell who it was, exactly. It looked like him, though.

Celes Chere · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

.Angelo or someone? I couldn't tell who it was, exactly. It looked like him, though.

I'm in full support of this pairing. >D Aerith does a lot more interacting with him, than with Cloud. REALLY, I'm getting tired of the "omg they're standing next to each other lolz" 'proof'.

Recall that these are the people who insist that 'Clotis' are simply obsessed with sex

And, the only reason we like Tifa is because of her boobs and perfect figure, because we're vain and only care about appearances. I think that Aerith and Tifa are both gorgeous inside and out, so I don't know what put these crazy ideas into their heads. Maybe it was because of that flamer that kept calling them all fat. xD

Because she's a clingy bitch

Funny, didn't Cloud try leaving Aerith behind, and then if you made the floor squeak while trying to leave, she'd shove you back into her room? And even when you do make it out, Aerith seems to have teleported to the spot in which you need to go? That sounds more clingy to me. X_x They mistake only loving one person for years and years as clingy. It's called true love, actually. >>;

spirit_chaser · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

And, the only reason we like Tifa is because of her boobs and perfect figure, because we're vain and only care about appearances. I think that Aerith and Tifa are both gorgeous inside and out, so I don't know what put these crazy ideas into their heads. Maybe it was because of that flamer that kept calling them all fat. xD

I was quite stunned actually, when I read Clerith seriously discussing this as a reason we love Tifa (and hate Aerith, wtf?)

Ryushikaze · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Leanan Sidhe link=topic=53.msg7584#msg7584 date=1231795344]
Hee! A while ago, someone showed me the Itadaki opening, and said that it was very meaningful that Cloud was shown walking with Aerith. They also said that Aerith and Cloud were standing right next to each other, just as every other canon couple was.[/quote]

How much of DQ or FF does this person know? The vast majority of people standing next to each other aren't romantic pairings. Yuna and Rikku and Auron, for example.

But, no. Tidus and Yuna weren't next to each other(like that means anything anyway), and there is actually a part where Cloud is speaking to an animated Tifa, alone, without Aerith, while our cute little flowergirl seems to be talking/being chatted up by...Angelo or someone? I couldn't tell who it was, exactly. It looked like him, though.

Definitely Angelo. He and She flirt a LOT in the quips people make to each other during the game. Similar to Cloud and Tifa's chatter.

looneymoon · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg7586#msg7586 date=1231796256]
Funny, didn't Cloud try leaving Aerith behind, and then if you made the floor squeak while trying to leave, she'd shove you back into her room? And even when you do make it out, Aerith seems to have teleported to the spot in which you need to go? That sounds more clingy to me. X_x They mistake only loving one person for years and years as clingy. It's called true love, actually. >>;
[/quote]

Oh my, this actually made me stifle a snort in the middle of class. I always wondered how the fuck she got there.

Also, I never paid much interest to Itadaki Street Special, much less consider it for any hints or anything... I always assumed the characters didn't really interact with eachother at all, to be honest ???

Strangelove · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

They only really have little dialogues during matches, which from what I can tell are mostly just parodies of things from their original games. (Haven't played it in a long time.)

I don't think it really does mean much, though. It wasn't made by FFVII's staff, I don't think any of them actually worked on it at all. Itadaki Street is one of Enix's title.

If Last Order, which was at least supervised by FFVII's staff, doesn't count, why would a casual game made without the FF staff's involvement?

Frostwave · Jan 12, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

No VII team involvement? Yeah, big surprise. =D

The C/A-ers think that SE are always thinking of ways to put teh canon Clerith in non-FF titles, like it's super-important to them to make them appear together. They are just scary, man.

A · Jan 13, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Ah, thank you all of you! I finally understand

And to reference to Itadaki Street - all canon pairings (such as Inyusha and Kagome, Ranma and Kakane, and many more... they fight as well. And yes, you do have the choice of choosing Aerith in the game M.A.G.O.N.E (which, is an accepted game from Square Enix, otherwise it'd be an illegal game because of copyright), and there is a video of Cloud and Tifa fighting against Aerith and Sephiroth (apparently, the game player wanted it to be that way).

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mugen-cloud-and-tifa-vs-aerith-and-sephiroth-watch-mode/1811593082/?icid=VIDURVENT04

Credit goes to crackitlackin for showing me this.

Rinoa · Jan 13, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

How much of DQ or FF does this person know?

The bigger questions are:
Does this person even know what kind of a game Itadaki Street is?
And does this person realize how desperate he/she looks right now?

spirit_chaser · Jan 13, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Did you notice how much more accepting of Cloud Aerith is?

Aerith:I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That's all that matters.
Tifa (After being pummeled by Loz):You're LATE.
Clearly, Tifa is blaming him. I think Marlene does too. The last thing she says before she's kidnapped is 'Cloud...' as if expecting he's going to miraculously show up on time.

And then what happens at 7th heaven? Nag nag nag nag nag nag go save the kids Mr. Hero of my dreams nag nag nag. One wonders if Cloud went after them just to get away from the nagging. Cloud tries to pass the burden of saving the kids on Reno and Rude. They won't have it, though, and toss it back on him.

At least Vincent understands what Cloud's going through. One need only play Dirge of Cerberus to understand why. He's got the same (or, at least, a VERY similar) deal going with Lucrecia.

And Im supposed to argue these!
What I got myself into...

Max Payne · Jan 13, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

lol Pinkers.

carry on.

Isabella · Jan 13, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

"Nagging" is what you do when your guy won't pick his dirty boxers off the floor and put them in the hamper. We're talking about kidnapped children here. Cloud's not avoiding it because he doesn't feel like it or he never liked those brats. He thinks he's incapable of saving them. Very different. Tifa's using words to snap him out of it, as, natch, SE specified. Funny how SE never mentions that Tifa's a nag, but quite the opposite.

That these shippers sabotage the characters for a ship is possibly the worst thing about this stupid debate.

Celes Chere · Jan 13, 2009

Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Their opinions over-ride SE, though!

Common sense fails. :'(

Did you notice how much more accepting of Cloud Aerith is?

Aerith:I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That's all that matters.
Tifa (After being pummeled by Loz):You're LATE.
Clearly, Tifa is blaming him. I think Marlene does too. The last thing she says before she's kidnapped is 'Cloud...' as if expecting he's going to miraculously show up on time.

And then what happens at 7th heaven? Nag nag nag nag nag nag go save the kids Mr. Hero of my dreams nag nag nag. One wonders if Cloud went after them just to get away from the nagging. Cloud tries to pass the burden of saving the kids on Reno and Rude. They won't have it, though, and toss it back on him.

At least Vincent understands what Cloud's going through. One need only play Dirge of Cerberus to understand why. He's got the same (or, at least, a VERY similar) deal going with Lucrecia.

I seriously thought this quote was a joke. Then I see that it was a real post made by a 'pinker'. Dear Lord. This post really isn't worth 'debating' about, but I responded to it anyway. More like exploded, really. ;D

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