Re: Love Triangle Discussion
warning: td:lr.
...like?
The date she asks him on is A) a mirror of Zack's words to her thrown back at Cloud B)feeding off her desire to see Zack again. Here Cloud falls into her church in the same way, wears the same uniform, carries the same sword, has the same eyes, claims to be a First Class, etc. It's why the woman chases him around when he'd prepared to leave her behind without a second thought (when he brings her home).
Everytime they sit down together, she has something to say about Zack (playground scene for example) and she says stuff like "you're just like him".
She figures out something's wrong with him when he's having seizures and acting like a dumbass. She says she wants to get to know him. Then she dies. Nothing accomplished there.
Cait Sith, whom you mentioned previously, is an unreliable robot puppeteered by Reeve. Not only is he shown to be unreliable in the game, but SE kindly remind you again and again in Ultimanias and such.
Then they go and make a game that expands on teh lovestory of Aeris and her dead boyfriend. They add unnecessary shit like Aeris wearing pink because of some never-ending hope of somehow seeing him again (denial) and wearing the ribbon in commemoration of their meetign until the day she dies. I think if SE wanted to say anything about a Cloud/Aeris romance they would not have gone to such lengths to underplay it. No?
It's entirely possible her attraction is a rebound off of Zack, considering how similar the two were and all of Cloud assuming Zack's personality. And yes, I agree the Cait Sith is unpredictable, but still makes one wonder if they never had any romantic intent for the two, why make it possible at all?
And you'd be surprised what writers would do if they thought the preception of their writing was going a way they didn't like it. Lord knows the Dragonalance writers have fun with that.
Tifa thought he was cute. She's a kid, is she supposed to be designing her wedding dress at this point? So when Cloud sets himself apart from the others, she notices him more. Pretty normal so far. What tifa asks him to do (be her knight in shining armor) is something Cloud wanted all along. She didn't just force him into it. He was the one who climbed a mountain for her and never backed out despite the dangers, like the other kids. When she was injured, he blamed himself.
He carries that promise in hsi heart for the rest of his adult life. That's not something that you can just label as a meaningless childish promise.
Yes, well, I agree that Cloud shows a huge amount of interest in Tifa, but it's not reciporcated at this point. Nothing is shown to me that Tifa cares very much for Cloud, yet suddenly ups and decides she wants a promise out of him. I thought that incredibly needy of her.
They did live together. Ultimanias state again and again that they made first a family of 3 and then with Denzel a family of 4. The kids look up to them as parent figures.
I conceded this point already. I just dislike the writers needint to clarify things after the fact.
Cloud doesn't leave because he doesn't love them though, and SE has gone to great lengths to make sure it isn't taken as such. Not to say that Cloud is excused because of this, and that's why Tifa and Marlene have that talk about lecturing him. Yeah, it was a dick move, but both the audience and Tifa come to understand why he did it. It has more to do with his fear of failure than any lack of love for his family and Tifa. That's a part fo Cloud that he can't just discard at will, and Tifa understands it. "Cloud is Cloud," she says and smiles. He's an idiot, but his intention was never to be a selfish ass and abandon his family. It is because he cared so much that he left. He's not like Zack - he runs from his problems a lot and has a constant fear of failure hanging over him. Cloud isn't meant to be a cool, brave and awesome hero who always faces his problems head on. He was never that. It's pretty consistent behavior, in that regard. But I digress - it ahs nothing to do with Tifa.
I agree it's not Tifa. It's him. And it shows a lack of maturity and responsiblity on his part. You don't abandon your family just because you have issues. You face them. If he really loved them, he'd have done the right thing and stuck by them. I don't go with this romanticized notion of love where the guy runs off and yet still loves them. To me, that shows he has a lot to learn.
People still dispute Harry Potter's love interest trying to prove he's in love with Hermione. However, the last book clearly stated otherwise. Does this mean JK Rowling, who I may not be a fan of, did a poor job storytelling? Same goes for this. You will always have crazy shippers trying to twist the story for their ship, that doesn't mean the writers are at fault.
Doesn't necessarily it, yes, but dosen't mean writers aren't capable of trying to recant their work. Castlevania's full of it. So is Dragonlance.
In this case you must also feel he was attracted to Tifa, Yuffie and Barret since he can "date" them just as much as he can "date" Aerith. However, he is disinterested in the date with Aerith, you can even be mean to her, and she admits to not knowing him. Not the greatest first date.
That's a valid point, but I think the Yuffie and Barrett things were jokes, because neither of their "dates" were lead up in a way as was the one with Aerith and Cloud.
I met my boyfriend at the age Tifa and Cloud made their promise. *shrugs* Which is closer to 13/14 fyi.
Your point? I'm not being snide. I honestly have no idea the relevance.
First, it was obvious she was giving a quote stating that Cloud and Tifa lived together for 2 years before AC, and after DC. Second, that's not how debating works. You need to provide proof Cloud and Aerith were dating before a rebuttle is needed. You can't assume something to be true with nothing to back it up, and then expect the other side to find a quote saying it isn't true.
The reason I disputed her quote was that I asked for proof that Aerith and Cloud were indisputably never romantically linked. Then she presented a quote that dosen't prove that point at all. She only proved that Tifa and Cloud were romantically linked which wasn't a point I was arguing at all.
I'm arguing a theory. A thought. A possiblity. Unlike her, which stated they knew for certain that Cloud and Aerith were not connected romantically, I never stated that I knew Cloud and Aerith were connected romantically. There is a difference.
If you want to know which books it came from, that's fair enough, but calling them random and trying to discredit them before giving the person a chance to give you the information you seek is showing you feel threatened somehow, or you're just snapping for no reason. It's good to ask for where quotes came from, but don't automatically act like there isn't an answer.
That one is from the creators, from the CC Ultimania. Translated on the very site you are posting on right now. But even without that, the entire Case of Tifa novella is about Cloud and Tifa building their life together, only to fall into hard times because of Cloud's disease and guilt.
Because I didn't recognize the name of the book as quoted. I've had so many cases were people quote some random website that claims to be official or they are some amatuer Japanse translator and they purposely misinterpetted a point to prove something incorrect.
Not that I'm saying the case is here, but that I often doubt irrefutably proof. A lot of stuff in life is up to debate.
I'm...snapping? Where?
And as for the second paragaph, this point has already been conceded.
This is just... wow. You have quite the vision of relationships then. Now, in real relationships, problems happen, people make stupid mistakes. Just because Cloud makes a mistake thinking that he must run off because he's afraid of loosing his happiness with her does not mean he couldn't possibly love her.
People make mistakes and fix them. Not repeat them. Not run from them. Running off so as "avoid ruining happiness" is about the dumbest thing a person can do for a relationship. At the very least I prove that Cloud isn't showing a capacity for a proper relationship, at that stage, at least.
Careful, you've shifted your claim a bit. In any case, when before the date would they have properly had a chance? At least Cloud and Tifa have the time after he is found before the game and after it.
And I'm not allowed to shift my views on a stance when presented with a new information?
Attraction can happen in five minutes or less. Dating may have been phrasing is badly, but I still at this time contest there's enough evidence to prove an attraction may have developed.
No, but one would expect a hint of this attraction. Not for the man to unoptionally declare his desire to impress the other girl, for him to realize the girl feels the same and for them to confirm it, and for him to say he wants to be with the other girl. As a writer, to say he may have had an attraction for A while HAMMERING the point in about B makes little narrative sense.
Don't follow. Can you rephase?
You've NEVER come across the 'Leaves his family in order to protect them' cliche? NEVER?
I have. Many times. And it still tells me that Cloud needs maturity and responsiblity to have a maintianable relationship with Tifa.
The upcoming Left Hook, just like with his own overstated demise and immediate ressurection. His overdramatic statements are supposed to get you thinking the LOLDIE cliche has been taken care of, and get you softened up for the kebabing.
Again, don't follow.
Cloud was 14, and Tifa was 13. They are in their teens. And again, the fact it meant that much to them, speaks volumes to their commitment.
Oh, I never knew that. Were was that clarified? Not that I think you're not right--you probably are as I'm not an expert on FF7--but rather that I never got that point ever. That might have went over my head.
But judging black and white a character who has hardly had a normal life, let alone any bonds or interactions with the opposite sex due to being a lab experiment, to rules and guidelines dictated by society's norms and practices, doesn't quite fully encompass the reasoning behind said action. You're only choosing to look at one part of the reason behind his leaving and neglecting to see the full picture. Sometimes couples break up for the wrong reason and come back right after.
That's an interesting and valid point. Considering how complex and complicated Cloud's life is it might be very difficult to assess what exactly is going on in his head. I still atest that love isn't shown by running away, but Cloud might be developed enough to understand that.
Not to be anal, but they were much older than 8/9. And some people do remember. I remember my life at 8/9 (best damn years of my life). Also, you have to look at this in the context of a "story". It's very possible, and like the user you quoted said, " it carried on" until their adulthood and is solidified by Cloud reiterating this same "promise" later in FF7 (and literally does so at the end by saving her from a fall.)
Point already concealed about the age (you wouldn't have seen that though). I don't remember 8/9 very clearly. I still don't see Tifa's real interest in Cloud back then, but apparently it had some impact to remanifest itself later on.
Nobody scours the newspaper for a guy they weren't the least bit interested in.
Yes, but that's after the promise. I was stating prior. Clearly Tifa developes an interest later on.
Edit:
At the age of 13 and 14, you mean. Definitely at the age where they would remember.
Point already conceded.
She does some strange things for a boy she doesn't seem to care about. She came to see him when he asked her to, even though they were never that close. She asked him, and only him, to promise to come back to her. She scoured for news of him from newspapers and from people who worked in the same organisation as him. She wore that scandalous cowgirl outfit in the hopes of catching his eye.
My point is strictly on the promise thing, not the stuff after. Although I agree that the evidence after does seem to support the evidence before. I just happen to find her actions more needy and selfish than actually caring.
The age thing was already pointed out above.
Point...aw fuck it. xD
How did Cloud push Tifa's interest away? And what was there to push away anyway if, as you said before, Tifa didn't seem all that interested in him?
I don't follow were did I state this? Clarify please.
I thought that if a writer were to write about something because he or she saw the need to clarify a point, then, barring any dramatic plot twists, the reader should understand that this point is being emphasised for good reason.
Not necessarily. Writers can make mistakes too.
If realism is the only thing that decides what's acceptable and what's not, then pretty much everything that makes up the FFVII world should also be rejected.
Depends. Are we suspending belief relatives to human actions and reactions or simply suspending belief on the basis of magic/etc.? I thought FF7 was ignoring strictly the physical foundations of earth but not the emotional ones.
The things is that Cloud's actions were consistent with his reasons, his state of mind, and his past behaviour. That, IMO, is one of the most important things with regard to believability in fiction.
His motives for his actions are well explained, but still doesn't validate a point that he's capable of a mature, responsible relationship.
I find this comment lacking any attention to detail. The promises echoes through the entire story all the way to and including AC. It's important because it shaped Cloud's character and became symbolic of their relationship.
It's lacking in detail because you cut off half of it and minced it only to the purposes of your point.
If I recall correctly, didn't Cloud's mind pretty much revolve around that promise? Didn't he obsess over it in BC? Aren't promises stressed a lot in FFVII?
Alas I didn't play BC so if he did, I didn't know of it. I only work off what I know.
I also hope that this thread won't be derailed into anti-other forum thread. My interests in this thread is to debate a point I find interesting, not listen to rantings about some random forum. I'd much, much rather to stick to the topic at hand, which is having a delightful and insightful discussion about the whole Tifa-Cloud-Aerith dispute.
: When there is nothing for potential love interest Q, Z, and Muffin, but BOATLOADS for potential love interest B, and moreover Q and her prior love interest Sigma Theta's love is given an entire game to reinforce and give new information about her interctions with Guy Friday in the original game, why assume there is something for Q by Guy Friday when the focus of the story has been all about two other pairings.
