The Genesis Sequel

[Makoeyes987]

You're entitled to disagree with people, but when you contest criticism on a regular basis it gives the impression that you can't accept difference of opinion.

Well that's not the impression I mean to give, and really, just because you disagree doesn't mean you're intolerant. Intolerance denotes disrespect, and i respect people's opinions, regardless of how often I choose to discuss it. I just enjoy discussing things, as that's primarily the purpose of a forum and its stimulating to me.

FFVII was never truly nihilistic, because the Lifestream theory contradicts that right away. People die, but their spirits live on and are reborn. As opposed to people becoming worm-food full-stop. Yes Aerith's death was permanent, but the line between life & death was a thin one in FFVII and its subsequent titles.

Well I'm not trying to say its nihilistic, but Nomura did say that's what they were going for. The line blurs, but the theme of death being the check out for a person, is what they intended as a theme.

So you disagree with this in AC? Because you either do or you don't, otherwise you're flip-flopping.

No, I'm not flip-flopping. I accept it in AC because of its context in terms of AC's creation, the explanation given within the plot, and how AC shows her finally going back now that she has "concluded her business." I can accept things once if validly explained. I would not accept it if she became a recurring character in subsequent stories. If she had been in DC, I would've thought it be inappropriate and absurd.

How exactly could they have tied a future threat from Sephiroth into the game, when it finishes at the beginning of FFVII?

How was BC able to tie in a future threat of DG SOLDIER, and the WRO in their story that took place before FFVII? C'mon, don't be so literal. They could've easily inserted a revelation in Crisis Core that shows that all of what happened in FFVII and AC was foreseen and that Sephiroth would intend to come back. Or that there was more than one Jenova specimen, or whatever retcon or revelation tickled their fancy.

They could've included a secret ending of Sephiroth being reborn to tie into the future. There's a lot. The Compilation can cross reference itself regardless of what place in continuity their installment takes place. Instead, they stuck with Genesis and a NEW threat/savior/character as well as opening up the importance of who or what Minerva the Goddess really is.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

That's my point. It was a bad choice plotwise to bring Hojo back, but they did it anyway because of fanservice.

And I wasn't even impressed, so really, who were they catering to? This devoted Vincent fangirl says yawn plz.

 

[Nocturne]

I wouldnt say it was a horrible idea, but I would have rather them show more of a goal of deepground rather than Hojo be pulling the strings.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I'd say it was a horrible idea. The plot has stretch marks.

They could have tied DG to Vincent and his past, newly written or pre-existant, without falling back on LOL ITS HOJO.

 

[Nocturne]

yeah, thats kinda what I was saying. They could have done ALOT worse, but they could have done alot better too. But overall I liked the story of Dirge.

I think they could have went alot more into the background of Deepground and given the main villains, or at least some of them, more back story.

 

[Restless]

DoC had some nice ideas...They just weren't executed properly. Compare DoC and CC. What's the difference? CC feels more whole, there aren't a huge amount of characters that feel shallow to the core, we can understand and sympathize with characters. Not only that, but there were characters who served a purpose, but had relatively minor roles. Kunsel and Luxiere gave the player information, and during the final events kept sending emails, pleading Zack to let them help. In DoC, we had some returning characters and new characters. There were no new characters with roles about the same size as Kunsel, but even the ones with larger roles I didn't care much about. Only Nero, actually

DoC was very short, too short IMO. Part of that explains why character were never developed, I guess, but it can't explain everything. The online player mode helped a little, but still left more desired. I guess I can forgive Azul's role a bit, because he appeared in BC. If we actually had been able to play it, it would have been one of those "OMG I know that character!" moments...

Hojo was brought up to connect Vincent to the story is my guess, but from what we've seen in CC, the Compilation is improving. I don't think we'll need to worry much about a rushed storyline or bad gameplay. Things are different now.

 

[OWA-2]

[quote author=Restless link=topic=488.msg18820#msg18820 date=1234841606]DoC had some nice ideas...They just weren't executed properly.[/quote]

I agree. The story would be much better, if they included the cutscenes of DoC Online, and the levels(and cutscenes) of Lost Episode.

 

[strode78]

a few things to point out

-AC as fanservice may have made sense when it came out, but i think that ACC may very well shed some light on some of these issues. They have said that it's intended to be a replacement for AC. So it only makes sense that some of the alterations will be made to make it better fit into the compilation. In a way we can therefore make the argument that AC was not cannon, whereas ACC will be. If they are going to bring sephiroth back in FF7-2 I think it's reasonable that the ending will allow more wiggle-room for this to happen.

-It's also important to note that bringing sephiroth back being "bad" writing, is really an opinion based argument in its truest sense (a value judgment). Thus, mako's logic would make it invalid.

-It's also important to note that the compilation really hasn't moved past the initial conflict and has shown no signs of doing so. even DOC was still rooted in the experiments that made sephiroth (deepground) and revived vincent's primary conflict (hojo). CC also didn't stray away. Yeah, they introduced genesis, but sephiroth and the experiments that made his still figured heavily into the plot. While they certainly have introduced new themes, they still havn't let go of the old ones thusfar. I'm not really sure where mako's idea that they're "closing the book" on those conflicts (his main argument which is the necessary precondition of all of his following arguments) comes from as there seems to be no evidence in the text to verify it. Seems to me like raw speculation based simply on preference.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess destroying Sephiroth and Jenova for good isn't really closing the book to you then.

And how in the world does Deepground have anything to do with the Jenova Project?

 

[strode78]

Genesis - created from the jenova experiments

Tsviets - Created from Genesis

therefor Tsviets - created from jenova experiments (2nd generation, like the sepiroth clones)

Therefore EVERY major badguy in DC in a consequence of the jenova experiments. Except of course for hojo who certainly had no tie to jenova whatsoever (/sarcasm)

 

[strode78]

destroying sephiroth and jenova for good maybe, but not the consequences of the experiments. this is what i've always argued as being preferable to a literal re-appearance of sephiroth, the conflict of ff7-2 should center around some consequence of sephiroth's existence.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Tsviets weren't created from Genesis. They were created from their own unique experiments and given Genesis's genes in order to strengthen them.

And that's a very distant relationship to the Jenova Project, which really doesn't even give the Tsviets any part of Jenova proper at all.

Nero, Rosso, or Azul did not result from the Jenova Project at all.

 

[strode78]

They are the "Hellspawn of G" to directly quote from the text.

Again what made genesis's genes so powerful? jenova. therefore what about genesis would strengthen the tsviets? Jenova.

They are 2nd generation jenova experiments. (again like the sephiroth clones or even cloud)

cloud's relationship to jenova is equidistant to the tsviet's relationship to jenova.

therefore the tsveit's relationship to jenova is only as distant as cloud's (that is to say, not very distant at all)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually, if you read the CC Ultimania interview, the secret to why his genes are so powerful is still a secret. They never say its Jenova.

And Tsviets being called his Hellspawn doesn't make them hellspawn of Jenova. Especially when Genesis didn't have Jenova cells at all. That's a very weak chain of connection.

Which still is overrided by the fact that the experiments that created each and every Tsviet did not have anything to do with the Jenova Project.

And experiment on injecting stagnant lifestream into a fetus has nothing to do wtih the Jenova Project.

Or an experiment done to try to create a shape changing monster, or a person who's immortal. No, it DG had nothing to do with Jenova. At all.

 

[strode78]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg19060#msg19060 date=1234895559]

And Tsviets being called his Hellspawn doesn't make them hellspawn of Jenova. Especially when Genesis didn't have Jenova cells at all. That's a very weak chain of connection.

Which still is overrided by the fact that the experiments that created each and every Tsviet did not have anything to do with the Jenova Project.

And experiment on injecting stagnant lifestream into a fetus has nothing to do wtih the Jenova Project.

Or an experiment done to try to create a shape changing monster, or a person who's immortal. No, it DG had nothing to do with Jenova. At all.
[/quote]

didn't say they were the hellspawn of jenova. I said that they were to hellspawn of genesis, who was created from the jenova project (later split up into project G and project S)

"Hollander's plan was to inject Gillian with Jenova Cells. However, Gillian herself was not to be the ultimate result of Project G. Rather, those who would be later injected with Gillian's cells would hold the Jenova traits. Genesis Rhapsodos was one of the more successful creations of this experiment."

genesis came out of the jenova project, the tsviets clearly have a genestic relationship to genesis, therefore the tsviets have a genetic relationship to jenova.

again, i'm NOT saying that they were PART of the jenova project, i'm saying that they are a CONSEQUENCE of the jenova project. In other words, since Genesis would not exist without the jenova project, and they are the "hellspawn of G", they would not exist without the jenova project.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're trying to say they were the result of the Jenova Project when they aren't. They'd have been created whether or not the Jenova Project happened. They received Genesis's genes in order to get a boost in power AFTER their creation.

Take the time to actually read the profiles of the Tsviets and what spawned them and you'd see that nothing regarding the Jenova Project created them. They were done independently by different scientists.

 

[strode78]

actually just genesis being in the next one is proof that the next game will be related to the jenova experiments as he was created from them. Again, not exactly closing the book.

 

[strode78]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg19065#msg19065 date=1234896195]
You're trying to say they were the result of the Jenova Project when they aren't. They'd have been created whether or not the Jenova Project happened. They received Genesis's genes in order to get a boost in power AFTER their creation.

Take the time to actually read the profiles of the Tsviets and what spawned them and you'd see that nothing regarding the Jenova Project created them. They were done independently by different scientists.
[/quote]

Correct. But in their final form they do HAVE genesis' genes. Genesis HAS jenova's genes. therefor the tsviets HAVE jenova's genes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Umm, again. That's a very weak and loose connection.

I guess you can say the Compilation installment that features Cloud is going to be focusing on Jenova and Sephiroth since Cloud had their cells then.

That's very weak. We're talking in the context of Sephiroth's actual CHARACTER being in the installment.

And you said the experiments that created the Tsviets were a direct relationship and consequence of the Jenova Project when they wren't. You're backpedaling now. Their final forms having the genes of Genesis...who only had the genes of ANOTHER person, who had Jenova cells, does NOT make a strong connection or consequence to the Jenova Project.

Especially when the main reason they have his genes is due to a unique factor unique to Genesis. It wouldn't be much of a unique factor relating to Genesis if it was related to Jenova, since Sephiroth has most of the abilities of Jenova.

 

[strode78]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg19060#msg19060 date=1234895559]
Actually, if you read the CC Ultimania interview, the secret to why his genes are so powerful is still a secret. They never say its Jenova.
[/quote]

just scanned through it again, can't find the passage that you're referring to, pls quote for proof

 

[strode78]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg19070#msg19070 date=1234896649]
Umm, again. That's a very weak and loose connection.

I guess you can say the Compilation installment that features Cloud is going to be focusing on Jenova and Sephiroth since Cloud had their cells then.

That's very weak. We're talking in the context of Sephiroth's actual CHARACTER being in the installment.

And you said the experiments that created the Tsviets were a direct relationship and consequence of the Jenova Project when they wren't. You're backpedaling now. Their final forms having the genes of Genesis...who only had the genes of ANOTHER person, who had Jenova cells, does NOT make a strong connection or consequence to the Jenova Project.

Especially when the main reason they have his genes is due to a unique factor unique to Genesis. It wouldn't be much of a unique factor relating to Genesis if it was related to Jenova, since Sephiroth has most of the abilities of Jenova.
[/quote]

this argument is applicable in that clearly they're not "closing the book" or "moving on". it all ties back to the jenova experiments. from genesis to cloud to every conflict thusfar. the jenova experiments and their consequences are the thread that binds the whole thing together.

AND its not that distant at all -

again Tsviet's relationship to jenova=cloud's.

just like the tsviets, cloud existed before being implanted with sepiroth's cells, and this established the connection to jenova (though one generation apart).

The tsviets existed before they were implanted with genesis' genes, and this established a connection to jenova (one generation apart). this is true regardless of any unique quality of genesis.



Therefore if you can postulate a connection between cloud and jenova (nobody would disagree i think), you HAVE to postulate a connection between the tsviets and jenova. period. therefore as much as cloud as he existed in ff7 was a result of the jenova experiments, the tsviets were as they existed in DOC.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The argument was about Sephiroth coming back and them closing the book on his direct threat to the planet, not closing the book on anyone and anything that loosely connects to the Jenova Project. Because that's a good chunk of the cast in and of itself.

And what you missed was:

Q7-1: In DC’s G Reports, it says that “G”, one of the ‘two taboos’, bears an epithet signifying ‘unique’. What does this mean?

some of the scientists who knew detailed information on Genesis began to refer to Genesis as “G, to whom has been added a word signifying ‘unique’”. This is just like how Weiss, Nero, Rosso and Azul were given codenames corresponding to colours.

As for what exactly the name meaning ‘unique’ is, that’s a secret at present.

And no, that's not a direct connection that you claimed several posts ago. It's a connection but not a direct connection. A direct connection would be akin to Sephiroth and the Jenova Project. You can't claim they have a direct connection if by your own words, they're "one generation apart." Their existence isn't the result of Jenova or its projects.

 

[strode78]

so then are you suggesting that cloud has merely a "weak" connection to jenova?

also that quote just suggests that there is something unique about genesis that we don't know about yet. it doesn't necessarily mean that this quality is genetic, or that it was passed onto the tsviets, or that they were injected with his cells because of that quality. All it means is that there is a unique quality to him.

again, i didn't ever say it was direct, i said that they were second generation, and that their connection to jenova is only as far as cloud's. Therefore they are as much of a consequence of the jenova experiments as cloud is.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I think what he may be trying to say (I'm just translating here), that if it wasn't for the Jenova Project, none of this mess would have happened in the first place.

Come to think of it, Shinra may not have even won the Wutai War without SOLDIER and Sephiroth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually you kinda did say there was a direct connection but if you want to back pedal on it, I won't stop you

Yes most of everything connects back to the Jenova Project. That was never really the question at all.