The Genesis Sequel

[strode78]

yes, but but to take it one step further, any argument that they have "closed the book" on the central conflicts of ff7 is really quite baseless, as they have been featured in ALL of the games thusfar. There is no evidence to support the statement that they are "continuing on with a new narrative" that is somehow unique to the compilation. Sorry, new themes doesn't mean dispensing with old ones.

also to reference a few pages back, they HAD to bring hojo back for DOC because it's a game about vincent and his main conflict is with hojo. (another example of them centering a new game on an old conflict while introducing new ideas).

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a good point, but we were really talking about direct connections regarding the characters (particularly Sephiroth) coming back and interacting in the narrative. Not the consequences of their past behaviors.

And they really didn't have to bring back Hojo directly.

To quote what you said, they could've had Hojo's influence in the game, and consequence of his actions, as his presence, rather than his digital/spiritual copy pulling the strings.

 

[strode78]

It follows that this game will be built on an old conflict, and be built on genesis, while exploring new themes. A complete list of genesis' existing conflicts are as follows (in order of importance):

1 - Zack

2 - Sephiroth

3 - Angeal (not really a conflict...)

Now, which is most likely?

since sephiroth has no real avenue to come back, it must be a consequence of his existence rather than he himself (unless square-enix totally cops out, which nobody here, myself included, wants).

 

[strode78]

AND as far as what we were originally talking about, as i was the one who brought it up.

from my first post-

"sephiroth in some form will be the enemy in the next one IMO"

I also made clear to state in another post that sephiroth may appear more as distortions in the lifestream (due to the monumental task of absorbing his will) than as an actual character.

BUT everyone jumped on the word "sephiroth" without taking the time to look at what i was actually saying.

 

[Kuraudo]

Was there a link to this Genesis Sequel? I don't think he deserves one, but anyways is there a link I could possibly look upon?

 

[strode78]

implied by the Dirge of cerberus secret ending/g reports throughout the game.

 

[curiousACfan]

I have no interest in taking part in another 16 pages of discussion on the subject, but I think Mako and a few others are giving SE's stockholders too much credit. You can give all you want to the writers -- though I think you're probably giving them way too much credit too -- but to say there's "no logical avenue" for Sephiroth's ressurrection is plain silly if they deemed it financially viable.

Do you guys remember the speculation before AC came out? Many people said the same things you're saying now. Sephiroth wouldn't appear because there was no logical basis for it to happen according to what we knew about FFVII's physics.

"We saw his spirit get broken apart and neutralized by the Lifestream. It turned from red to green. He's gone! He's not coming back!"

We all saw those arguments. So what happened? They invented a "logical avenue for ressurrection" via Sephiroth having such a strong will that his thoughts corrupted the surrounding Lifestream, pulled away from the larger body of it, and then took physical form.

To this they added a chunk of Jenova remaining, which both Shinra and Sephiroth's remnants somehow just knew would be there, even though Jenova Synthesis was toast before Seph was. So they go after that and now Sephiroth has a body if one of his remnants can just get in contact with those remains.

Now let's look at Hojo. He had even less of a "logical avenue for ressurrection" than Sephiroth did. So what did they do? They invent this worldwide network thing that wasn't there before at all.


If they want to bring Sephiroth back, they're going to do it. Simple as that.

Now I know a lot of you have said they would just piss people off if they brought Sephiroth back again. Well, for one thing, we're talking about years down the road, aren't we? This FFVII Compilation business is supposed to last 20 years.

Even in the present, how many people have complained that they're tired of the Sephiroth oversaturation from AC, KH, KH2, CC and Dissidia? Yet all of those titles have astronomical sales.

So, the guys in the boardroom calling the shots at SE have two things to consider their next move from:

1) A fear that maybe those few people on the internet -- who have been saying the same thing over and over, despite Sephiroth showing up again and again in titles that sell very well -- will be right this time about some kind of "Sephiroth fatigue" setting in.

2) The tried and true reality that their financial records show that everytime Sephiroth has been in a new title and the player fights him while One Winged Angel blares in the background, it does well for them.

Which do you think they're going to give more weight to?


By the way, Mako, I think it's a stretch to say Genesis doesn't have Jenova's genes at all. Jenova obviously altered Gillian's DNA. Gillian's DNA obviously altered the original DNA of Genesis as a fetus.

He even demonstrates what Hollander called "inheriting Jenova's power" when talking to Angeal about the copying process, so it can't be denied that he's got Jenova's genes.

 

[OWA-2]

[quote author=strode78 link=topic=488.msg19091#msg19091 date=1234899136]yes, but but to take it one step further, any argument that they have "closed the book" on the central conflicts of ff7 is really quite baseless, as they have been featured in ALL of the games thusfar.[/quote]

If by "central conflicts" you mean, experiments with Jenova... Then I have to remember you that they had nothing to do with the main conflict and threat of Before Crisis.

[quote author=strode78 link=topic=488.msg19107#msg19107 date=1234900072]
AND as far as what we were originally talking about, as i was the one who brought it up.

from my first post-

"sephiroth in some form will be the enemy in the next one IMO"

I also made clear to state in another post that sephiroth may appear more as distortions in the lifestream (due to the monumental task of absorbing his will) than as an actual character.

BUT everyone jumped on the word "sephiroth" without taking the time to look at what i was actually saying.[/quote]

Everyone? Do not include me on that, please. I paid attention to what you said:

And strode78 said that Sephiroth could return in a different form. But you said he couldn't, using Zeromus as an example.

And I agree with everything said by curiousACfan.

 

[strode78]

True, you didn't, thanks.

BC is a bit tough for me to accept as a major title of the compilation, as it hasn't been widely distributed. It's certainly canon, but i really did mean to imply (and had stated in earlier posts) that these statements were directed towards the MAIN titles in the compilation. Jenova byproducts don't show up in on the way to a smile either, but these are minor stories to add depth to the characters.

as for the comment before about the money issue, yes there will be pressure from square execs to include him in his full form, and there will certainly be pressure from at least some writer to not. My theory is a compromise between the two, which makes it more likely than either IMO. Again, it's just as likely that square will cop out and bring sephiroth back totally (like they did with hojo in DOC), but i think that it simply makes more sense plot-wise (while still satiating the fanboys/girls) to have the struggle be about a consequence of sephiroth, such as his will leaving an impurity in the lifestream that would erode the planet from the inside-out. i can't see another way to please everyone and wrap up the compilation decisively.

 

[Makoeyes987]

@curiousACfan

I remember those discussions, but when the trailers were showing Kadaj and then Kadaj's image superimposing on Sephiroth, then people really kinda stopped thinking Sephiroth wasn't coming back. Especially when the specifics of Geostigma were revealed and the trailer with Vincent saying "They could recreate Sephiroth" came out.

To be fair, the original FFVII did put the lid on Sephiroth, but the element of Jenova's cells being dispersed in the Lifestream due to the death of Jenova SYNTHESIS made sense. And Sephiroth having a strong will made sense within FFVII as well.

You're right. If they want to do it. They'll do it. But going by how they have closed the book on Sephiroth definitively AGAIN and have closed his avenues of return, I guess I do give them credit that they won't cop out and play out the same scenario a third time. Again, the context of AC was unique and they specifically wanted a reunion of all the main characters on the silver screen. Villain resurrection isn't always a bad thing and can work when done properly. But if its repeated obnoxiously, it becomes absurd.

I don't think it takes any special sense to know that by having Sephiroth come back a third time just to be killed by Cloud in the same continuity would be pushing the envelope of creative integrity a bit too far.

And my statement was regarding Jenova cells. I said Genesis does not have Jenova cells. Because he doesn't. I'm not saying he doesn't have some of the genes that the cells of Jenova contain and that he had some of its abilities.

 

[OWA-2]

[quote author=strode78 link=topic=488.msg19166#msg19166 date=1234903877]BC is a bit tough for me to accept as a major title of the compilation, as it hasn't been widely distributed. It's certainly canon, but i really did mean to imply (and had stated in earlier posts) that these statements were directed towards the MAIN titles in the compilation. Jenova byproducts don't show up in on the way to a smile either, but these are minor stories to add depth to the characters.[/quote]

But BC is a main title of the Compilation. It have it's own plot, characters, and conflict. And it explains a lot of things about Shinra and Avalanche's past.
On the Way to a Smile on the other hand, is just a side story of AC, like Tseng's Mission and Reno's Mission are side stories of BC.

 

[curiousACfan]

[quote author=strode78 link=topic=488.msg19166#msg19166 date=1234903877]
Again, it's just as likely that square will cop out and bring sephiroth back totally (like they did with hojo in DOC), but i think that it simply makes more sense plot-wise (while still satiating the fanboys/girls) to have the struggle be about a consequence of sephiroth, such as his will leaving an impurity in the lifestream that would erode the planet from the inside-out.
[/quote]

I hope that's what they do. I actually liked your idea about Sephiroth's essence being an enemy that had to be defeated somewhat like Sin -- going inside the planet and diluting his will there. At least, I should say I liked it better than bringing him back in the flesh once again.

I'd rather see them leave him alone now. But if they insisted on bringing him back again, I'd prefer it to be the way you suggested.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg19177#msg19177 date=1234904437]
@curiousACfan

I remember those discussions, but when the trailers were showing Kadaj and then Kadaj's image superimposing on Sephiroth, then people really kinda stopped thinking Sephiroth wasn't coming back. Especially when the specifics of Geostigma were revealed and the trailer with Vincent saying "They could recreate Sephiroth" came out.[/quote]

Oh, of course, people gave up on that idea after a few trailers had come out. But at first, there were deep battle lines drawn between those who said there's no way he was coming back and those who insisted he would.

To be fair, the original FFVII did put the lid on Sephiroth, but the element of Jenova's cells being dispersed in the Lifestream due to the death of Jenova SYNTHESIS made sense. And Sephiroth having a strong will made sense within FFVII as well.

Sure, and I don't doubt that the next explanation would make at least as much sense. Off the top of my head I can easily come up with an idea that would make sense, and also tie together various parts of the Compilation. It might not be particularly inspired, but it would make sense.

Here, I'll give it a shot:

DoC showed that not all the people with Jenova's cells decided to go have them removed. They may not have even understood why they had Geostigma in the first place.

So we have people all over the world still living with small fragments of Jenova inside their bodies (see, I'm even throwing the word "fragments" in there so it kind of sounds like the stuff they did in DoC).

Because Lucrecia's cave is where Chaos and the tainted mako were discovered, it also made for a great place for what remained of Sephiroth's Lifestream to take up residence, hiding out until he grew strong enough to act through it again.

So, the remaining Jenova cells scattered through all those people are gradually brought together in the body of one Lucrecia Crescent, the person with the most Jenova material still inside her body. Maybe this happens because Sephiroth's will manipulates someone into it, or maybe he takes over her body. Isn't really important right now.

At the same time that all this is going on, we learn that it was either Chaos' full awakening or the destruction of Omega Weapon near the end of DoC that awakened Genesis. Because of the prior loss of the rest of the Weapons, Minerva accepted him as the planet's new guardian, to awaken in its time of need, and granted him all the power of a Weapon during his sleep.

Since he didn't wake up when Meteor was summoned, he probably sealed himself away after it happened, shortly before the Tsviets defeated the Restrictors only to be trapped during Meteorfall.

Now awake, Genesis senses the growing danger to the planet as Sephiroth tries to revive. Also, because he's hanging out with Weiss, whose body Nero merged with, he knows about tainted Lifestream, which is connected to Lucrecia, who's connected to Shelke.

Believing that Shelke could be useful in locating or hindering Sephiroth, who's gathering/acting through Lucrecia's body, he kidnaps her, bringing him into conflict with Cloud and the rest of the team.

Various things happen, but Genesis and the others are unable to prevent Sephiroth's eventual rebirth, which takes place in the body of his own mother.

Genesis decides that the only way left to save the planet is to try bringing back Zirconiade. Elfe and the Turks obviously oppose him, as does Avalanche.

Things culminate in a three-way battle between all factions (maybe even a three-way battle between Cloud, Genesis and Sephiroth, thematically tying things back to the three-way fight in CC between Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth), with Sephiroth and Genesis being defeated for good.

I don't think it takes any special sense to know that by having Sephiroth come back a third time just to be killed by Cloud in the same continuity would be pushing the envelope of creative integrity a bit too far.

I really don't think a second return would push it much further than anything else they've done has. But that's just me.

And my statement was regarding Jenova cells. I said Genesis does not have Jenova cells. Because he doesn't. I'm not saying he doesn't have some of the genes that the cells of Jenova contain and that he had some of its abilities.

Ah, okay. Just making sure we're on the same page.

 

[Makoeyes987]

curiousACfan....

You're diabolical. You're...very frightening in how you crafted that.

Oh goddamnit. I don't even know how to respond to that accept that erriely made sense in a sickening but very possible sort of way. Like the perfect mixture of good, interesting plausibility and plot disaster.

I have no words. I...still think Sephiroth's will is gone but if they want to bring it, as you said...

They'll bring it back.

Just. Wow.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Yes, very interesting plot that CuriousACfan crafted.

It would be interesting to see Vincent's reaction to the fact that he would probably had to kill Lucrecia to prevent Sephiroth's ressurection.

 

[Shademp]

I am highly impressed too, curiousACfan. In fact you scare me. Are you from the future?

Vincent's reaction would be epic. "What? First I have to kill the son of whom I love, and now this?!"
Perhaps this would be a reason for Vincent to avoid fighting.

I'm getting immensely irritated by not hearing anything about new Compilation titles. It probably won't happen before ACC is released. Or even worse, not before FFXIII is released.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Its interesting and impressive.

But again, also frightening because...yeah.

 

[curiousACfan]

Glad you liked it, guys. Or were frightened. Whichever feeling was dominant. XD

I'm sure that guys like Nojima and Watanabe could make it -- or something better -- work.

 

[Nocturne]

That does sound pretty damn cool.

 

[strode78]

I REALLY like the theory about genesis being a new WEAPON. That would fit in beautifully. I also REALLY like the idea of lucrecia's body being host to sephiroth.

I think there is finally developing some sort of feeling of probability that sephiroth, or rather the threat of sephiroth acting as a mcguffin, placed in the background, and tastefully done, first of all might not be that bad, and second of all would probably be extremely likely.

 

[Mitch Connor]

Wow, that seems like a very plausible way for the story to progress. That was awesome how you tied everything together there into a story that I would have been happy with were it true (Relative to a story like DoC's). And too bad Cloud doesn't wield the Buster Sword anymore either cuz that would have been perfect for an epic 3 way finale between Sephiroth, Cloud, and Genesis.

 

[wayfarer]

I just came, that's probably the most plausible plot i've ever heard from a fan. A threeway battle's kinda cliche but whatever.

On a side note, I thought it'd be cool if everybody got new costumes again. Barret, Vincent, and Yuffie (DoC), maybe could stay the same. But Cloud, Tifa, and Cid should get a new makeover. It'd be like 4 years of the same outfit otherwise.

 

[OWA-2]

If this forum had a rep-system, I would rep you now curiousACfan. Seriously.


I can even see Cloud's reaction when Sephiroth come back again:

"Hello, Cloud." Sephiroth greets his old enemy, with a sadistic smile.

Cloud looks at him, relieved, "Oh, it's you Sephiroth. How you doin'?"

Sephiroth is surprised "No screams? Not even an eep?"

"Hey, I'm not afraid of you. Every time we fight, you wind up dead. I'm three-and-zero."

"I'll admit that the record is a little one-sided. But this time I cannot fail." With that, Sephiroth begins to advance menacingly, but then he sees Genesis, "Genesis, my old archenemy."

Cloud is confused "I thought I was your archenemy."

"I have a life outside of you, Cloud."

 

[ElMonk86]

The next Compilation game will center around Denzel, Genesis, and Minerva.

Every Compilation title gave a hint as to what the next would include.

Before Crisis and Advent Children hinted at Dirge of Cerberus. BC had Azul and Shalua as side characters, and AC had Cloud asking Vincent about his problems, to which Vince replied, "I never tried."

DoC hinted at Crisis Core with the whole mysterious SOLDIER G, which CC would elaborate on. And then, Genesis came back.

CC told us all about Genesis and introduced the concept of the Goddess Minerva. And lately ACC is beginning to make a big deal of Denzel, what with the OVA.

So, yeah...it'll center around Denzel, Genesis, and Minerva. Most likely the protagonist will be Denzel.

The FFXIII saga is showing that Square has an interest in doing stories set within the same universe but not involving the same characters. So, who knows? Maybe it'll focus entirely on Denzel, Genesis, and Minerva without any past references.

 

[NoenGaruth]

[quote author=ElMonk86 link=topic=488.msg29696#msg29696 date=1236908095]So, yeah...it'll center around Denzel, Genesis, and Minerva. Most likely the protagonist will be Denzel.
[/quote]

No. Just no.

I got no problem with Genesis and Minerva, but if they make a game with Denzel as the protagonist, then it will be the first FF7 title I pass up. He's jut not interesting enough to have a game centered around him, not to mention his back story is 'Shinra killed my parents!', well too bad for you kid the President and executives who conspired with dropping the plate are all dead.

Also i might add that if Denzel were to be the main he'd have to be older or will die within minutes of the game's start, and in order for him to grow up Genesis would have to be sitting around twiddling his thumbs (dilly dally shilly shally) for 10 or so years.

 

[Max Payne]

There is nothing at all implying that Denzel will the center of a future title. I'd say you're reading far too much into it.

Denzel has no stake in a battle with genesis and it would be a stupid forced move to do so. SE isn't retarded enough to do such a thing, and if they do I will lose all respect I ever had for them as creators of inventive fantasy.