The Good and The Bad of Final Fantasy XII

[LicoriceAllsorts]

My two chief objections to this game are
- it's hard to keep track of the plot, not because the plot itself is so complex but because there's so much running around and fighting and fetching things between one point of plot exposition and the next.
- the awful cheesy mock-medieval dialogue. Much of the time it's ungrammatical or clunky or just plain wrong, which really grates. Why couldn't they have hired somebody who knew how to write in this style properly and with grace?

I like Penelo.

 

[Ghost X]

I'd have to disagree with the comment on the mock-medieval dialogue. The script was written with the support of some top language expert (or something) if I recall correctly, and I think its awesome the amount of effort that went into it, as compared to the other games. I found reading/listening to it all rather interesting.

I disagree with your other point too, now that I think of it .

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I see nothing wrong with the script either.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I had weeks to even a month at one point breaks in the game and I was able to follow the story alright. And the times I did get confused it was because I was suppose to be confused (as in we weren't suppose to know everything yet).

 

[Username]

The battle system was rubbish.

 

[DLPB]

The battle system was rubbish.

That's better than the argument I made because that 1 sentence sums it all up neatly and factually.

Short answer: No.

Role Playing Game. Vaan was the role we were to identify with (like Tidus, Tina, Squall, Cloud). He was the main character but because he failed so much, we cannot identify him as a main character. That sucks. Trying to pretend he wasn't the main character won't make the sour taste leave the mouth.

If Vaan isn't the main character nor were Squall, Cloud, Tina or the others. I could easily make arguments why Rinoa is the main character of VIII or that Kuja is the main character of IX or that Yuna is the main character of X, but all these would miss the point entirely as to the main ROLE character with which everything is based around for the gamer.

Let me guess, people are now going to argue even with the structure of RPG? Well... take it away boys!

 

[Tetsujin]

It was already explained what Vaan was supposed to be, and it is not the main character.

 

[DLPB]

So we have a main player character which the story is unfolded around, and to which the player should be identifying with, not being the main protagonist in the slightest?

Hang on a second, isn't that actually another bad mark against FFXII for fucking things up again?

Yup. I think it is. I don't think you can make that kind of logic a good thing when it has gone against the very structure of RPG. People generally expect RPG based story when they play an RPG? RPG

ROLE
PLAYING
GAME.

Is this too fantastically simple? What exactly are you arguing with? People wonder why FFXII was hated by a lot of people, and don't expect that altering a key fucking structure of an RPG will provide a negative response?

I played FF6,7,8,9,10 and all of these had the same story based format which is correct to the genre. 12, by your own admission, did not, and that is to be welcomed and expected and cherished? HMMm?

 

[Madame Mayor]

He was the main character but because he failed so much, we cannot identify him as a main character. That sucks. Trying to pretend he wasn't the main character won't make the sour taste leave the mouth.

And I couldn't identify with Cloud and think he's a moron and a loser. OH NOES FFVII MUST SUCK.

Vaan was a regular guy who got sucked up in everything. When I played the game that's the way the story presented itself so yes I did feel like I was seeing it through his, and well Penelo's as well, eyes. But the whole 'no main character' aspect has been done before. FF6 has Terra, a character who you can leave behind and never see again after the World of Ruin begins.

People wonder why FFXII was hated by a lot of people, and don't expect that altering a key fucking structure of an RPG will provide a negative response?

Lots of people hate FFVII because it wasn't enough like FFVI. Lots of people think FFVI is crap. Every game is hated and FFXII isn't as universally hated as you wish it was.

 

[ForceStealer]

A lot of people hate every FF. And XII was better than VIII, stop including it in the classics. Draw sucked ass and the story - though it has a compelling start - completely unravels halfway through. None of the characters were likable and Squall is just about the least relatable main character ever. He's a self-absorbed, manic depressive prick who doesn't actually get over it, he just gets a hard-on for Rinoa. I give XII's cast a hard time, but Balthier is unquestionably likable - which is already one more character than VIII's main cast. (Laguna's not part of the main cast.)

I know there are people here and every where that do like VIII, and that's my point. It's an opinion, you really need to learn this concept. You can say "opinion's not an excuse to put any two viewpoints on an equal plaything field" all you like, but you also can't deny that your opinion is one just in some attempt to give you the high ground.

Furthermore, JRPGs NEVER really exemplify "Role-Playing." Its just a character you're directing, western RPGs are the ones where you actually make the character yourself.

 

[DLPB]

VIII was infinitely better in terms of gameplay and certainly its story was better, and well structured (this can be demonstrated).

In terms of sticking to the formula of RPG, VIII did, XII didn't. I don't see your argument. You are saying that adjusting a key component of story based RPG structure isn't a bad thing? Good luck with that.

 

[ForceStealer]

VIII was infinitely better in terms of gameplay and certainly its story was better, and well structured (this can be demonstrated).

Well I'd love to see you try and demonstrate it. The story was well-structured? Yeah, it only used the absolute worst "twist" in the history of fiction. They decide they all grew up together and just don't remember it. Why? "uh....GFs!" For there to be a twist, there has to be some hint at it earlier, so that you COULD have theoretically seen it. VIII did not do this, and it is instead an asspull. THAT is demonstrated crappy storytelling and, you'll like this, NOT an opinion.

Infinitely better in terms of gameplay? Draw is the most tedious, abstract magic system in the series. It is an absolute drag, and junction - though a cool idea, is broken and makes the characters even less distinct than in XII. In XII, if you expend some effort, you can make the characters be unique. In VIII you really can't because you just transfer your junctions around. They are stat-receptacles. This, however, is an opinion.

 

[DLPB]

I would love to see it as well, but it would mean a massive post and replaying both games again, something that isn't going to happen. Amount of dialogue, character development, side quests, variety of minigames and non battle components, for starters, would all favour VIII by a margin. That is a fact.

User reviews also indicate that VIII scores higher on average than XII.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation/final-fantasy-viii 9.0

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/final-fantasy-xii 7.7

7.7 is a bad score for a FF game and seems to be the worst user score of any main FF game from VII-XIII (except possibly X-2).

XII is voted the worst by user scores by a margin as well. No coincidence I am afraid.

 

[ForceStealer]

The characters don't really develop though. How are they any different? Squall is still an asshole, he just likes Rinoa, but he doesn't become any more empathetic towards anyone else. He is every bit the jerk he started as. Actually, I guess I see how you can relate to him.

Now, I'm not of this impression that you seem to be under that if a character doesn't actually change over the course of a story than it is bad story-telling. Largely because that's bullshit. But since you do feel that way, I'm surprised you like VIII. Seriously, how are Rinoa, Zell, Quistis, Irvine, or Selphie at ALL different by the end? They're all exactly the same. And, as I said, so is Squall, save him wanting to get in Rinoa's pants.

Again, the fact that they don't change isn't a reason I dislike the game, but it should be a reason why you do.

 

[Madame Mayor]

And yet people who actually review video games as a profession seem to give it ratings similar to other main FFs.

http://www.metacritic.com/search/all/final+fantasy/results

 

[Celes Chere]

He was the main character but because he failed so much, we cannot identify him as a main character.

Unless you yourself are a failure. Anyway, I don't see what everyone's problem with Vaan's character is. I recognize that his point in the story seems small and you're wondering: "Why is this the main character?", but his actual personality? I like it. His love for his brother, his dorky attitude, the fact that he's an orphan trying to make it in the world... I liked his character. ;_;

People wonder why FFXII was hated by a lot of people

It's also loved by a lot of people. I remember when it first came out Xplay rated it a 5/5, and other magazines gave it high ratings too (I forgot what Game Informer's was ;P). As for fans, I saw a lot of lovers of the game, and a lot that were rubbed the wrong way by it. But I wouldn't say it's one of the most hated. People disliked certain things about it, but still thought it was a great game, which it was.

In my opinion, FFXII is better than FFVIII, and is as good as the past FFs.

Agreeing with Brooke on so many levels, but adding on that though Terra is technically the main character of VI (or IS she? xD), she sits a good portion of the game - out of the party. You control different characters for long periods of times, seeing each of their stories. It's pretty much the same for XII, except you see less of their individual stories. ;P

and certainly its story was better

How? I actually prefer XII's story line too... XD

Also, game ratings don't always mean everything. Resonance of Fate for example only got a 7, but a lot of people adore the game. Not to mention each place you look is going to have a different rating, so don't base everything just on that. I saw it get lots of high ratings so... :I

Also:

Final Fantasy XII was recognized by the website GameSpot as the "Best PlayStation 2 Game" in their Best Games and Worst Games of 2006 feature, as well as nominated in the "Game of the Year" and "Best Role-Playing Game" categories

 

[Max Payne]

ROLE
PLAYING
GAME.

Gonna ignore the rest of the stupidity because TLDR and everyone else has dispelled the rest nicely, but FF games tbh AREN'T REALLY RPGS. Gamers and developers place them in their own genre now called JRPGs and have for years.

Traditional role playing games are all about building your own character and making your own story, actual role playing. It started with pen and paper, and eventually made it to consoles. In Final Fantasy games you aren't playing any role, you're just directing a character through a prescripted to plot, a lot like an interactive movie or book, so it's kind of retarded to knock Vaan as a main character because ROLE PLAYING GAME when you're not assuming Vaan's role as a main character at all. You're just following his story. If you had said jrpg then you would have a point.

Whether or not you identify with him is another story and an actual viable argument, though I could a bit because he's always in the background, never in the limelight, he's the guy the others don't really take seriously that dreams big. I've been there. I know what that is like.

 

[DLPB]

THEY ARE ROLE PLAYING. They have characters who the player assumes the ROLE OF.

The clue is in the RPG part. What can't you comprehend here? Are you just clinically insane or something?

 

[ForceStealer]

THEY ARE ROLE PLAYING. They have characters who the player assumes the ROLE OF.

The clue is in the RPG part. What can't you comprehend here?

Well by that definition EVERY video game is a role playing game.

 

[DLPB]

You are mincing words again, you know exactly what I mean. Again, what is the point debating with you about an RPG if you do not actually understand what an RPG should and should not involve? You can't just start ripping things out of an RPG or a FF game which many people expected and loved because it was part of the genre, and then expect that to be brushed under the carpet.[and you can swap RPG for jRPG, it makes NO difference edit. TO MY ARGUMENT.]

Final Fantasy XII was recognized by the website GameSpot as the "Best PlayStation 2 Game" in their Best Games and Worst Games of 2006 feature, as well as nominated in the "Game of the Year" and "Best Role-Playing Game" categories

Except generally, thousands of gamers all gave the game the worst score of any FF game, from VII-X-2. A few companies and reviewers do not equal the sum total of thousands of people, nor are they who the GAME WAS INTENDED FOR.

The end user was. Thousands of user scores and votes beat a handful of magazine reviews which were written by people with vested interests. User reviews are far more unbiased and resourceful, and big companies frequently lie.

Anyway, a cup of tea awaits and FFXII isn't nearly as satisfying....

 

[ForceStealer]

lolwut?

I'm afraid I do not know exactly what you mean. A true "role-playing game" a la dungeons and dragons or generally "western" RPGs, the player creates a character and determines how he or she behaves.
In the typical JRPG, you control how that character fights, but other than that he or she is a fully realized character that you have little to no control over. They have no obligation to be "relatable," as they are their own character.

And, its unfortunate to keep coming back to this, but a character's relatable-ness IS AN OPINION.

What is the point of debating with you if you do not actually understand what an opinion is?

 

[Max Payne]

lmao.

Do I have to link to articles explaining the difference between an RPG and a JRPG?

Meh, it's not even worth it.

 

[ForceStealer]

One thing remarkable about you DLPB, is that your "arguments" are so browbeaten and contrived you make it difficult for people that even agree with you. I have always thought Vaan was a stupid choice for a main character. You could remove Vaan and the game would change very little. Or least make him another party member, but Ashe or Basch should be the main character. It's not really all that important though given that you kinda control whoever you want in XII, only in towns does it default to Vaan.

But your reasonings are just so absurd so as to make it impossible to agree with you.

 

[DLPB]

lmao.

Do I have to link to articles explaining the difference between an RPG and a JRPG?

Meh, it's not even worth it.

We weren't arguing about those differences, Mr. Straw Man.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I like the fact that JRPGs are like animated interactive novels. It's like the difference between reading a story and writing one. Both are fun. I like Vaan; he appeals to my imagination and I can flesh him out. Balthier is a disappointment, though; I was expecting more, somehow. But the biggest disappointment is that this game has never once moved me. Not the way Dyne's death moved me, and the all the backstories moved me, in FFVII. If any of my party died, I really wouldn't care, as long as I was able to replace them with somebody new and keep my strength up. Even the destruction of that Temple thingy in the Paramina Rift wasn't tragic in the way the destruction of Corel was.

edit: Maybe it's because, while people in FFXII are sometimes sad, so many of the NPCs in FFVII are embittered and cynical. But I have to admit, I don't often stop to talk to NPCs in XII.