The Gunblade

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
Final Fantasy's weapons have always had fantastic but implausible designs.

The Gunblade - has a very odd grip, first, it's on an angle to the blade unlike other swords, and second you have to hold it to touch the trigger. Basically, you hold it more like a gun than a sword. But with the weight of the sword, it would likely put a great strain on your wrist when you swing it. Combined with the weapon's key design mechanic is that it's meant to vibrate as you swing it, and the Gunblade is not a weapon you can handle easily. You'd have to be very strong to withstand the strain on the wrist and to maintain your swing as the sword vibrates in your hand.

Buster Sword - oversized and presumably very heavy. The large width of the blade does make it seem like it could parry strikes very well, the large, flat surface area would handle the impact of an enemy's weapon better than normal swords which are much smaller. The weight would also likely give the weapon more momentium for attacking. But size aside, the mere weight of the weapon would require tremendous strength to be used, to both pick it up and be able to slice and hold it like you would other swords.

Masamune - I've always noticed Sephiroth's fighting in AC doesn't take full advantage of his weapon. The Masamune is what, six, seven feet long? That's a tremendous boost in reach compared to other weapons, and a lagre advantage in one-on-one combat. When your weapon is longer than the opponent's, simple logic - you have a longer reach and can fight at a safer distance. I realize AC's fight scenes aren't realistic at all, but this is how the weapon shoud be used. The problem here is it's lenght, you'd have to constantly be aware of the weapon to avoid swinging it in the ground and such. Also, out of battle it would be impossible to transport, it's too long for a sheath and if you strap it to your back the handle would be too high to reach.

I have a friend who is a bit of an expert on weapon designs and fighting, I'm gonna see if I could get her opinion on some of these.

EDIT - And of course, the most glaring design flaw of all three of these weapons: they exist in worlds where firearms are manufactured and used on a large scale.

The Spoony One said:
You're a soldier, get a gun, why do you need a sword!?
 
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Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
The thing about the FFVII Masamune is that, "A weapon is only as good as its wielder." The fact that Sephiroth doesn't use it properly is another indication that he doesn't take his fights seriously.

I realize KH isn't canon, but there's a line of Sephiroth's that I think is really fitting. "I see, so that's a Keyblade...and I suppose you must be its chosen wielder? ...I wonder if it won't change its mind once I defeat you?"

Meaning, I think Sephiroth uses the Masamune because no one else can wield* it. Yes, I know that Tifa uses it on him in Nibelheim, but her swing was kind of slow & awkward, & Sephiroth just takes it back from her. The asterisk is because this verb is always used in English translations, & "use" carries a different connotation than "wield." "Wield" denotes a degree of prowess that "use" doesn't (& it's also the common way to refer to the usage of weapons, but that isn't the point).
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
...There's no need to infer that from Kingdom Hearts, Cloud actually says "Only Sephiroth can use that sword" in FF7 about the Masamune.

And all Sephiroth's referring to there is the numerous references to the Keyblade and that it chooses the people that can use it.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
You're missing the point of the quote. The whole thing about only Sephiroth being able to use the Masamune? That's all from FFVII. However, the idea that he used it specifically BECAUSE it was unique to him didn't dawn on me until that line from KH. Moreover, I know what Sephiroth is referring to, but the point is in the 2nd part of the quote. "...I wonder if it won't change its mind once I defeat you." In other words, the Keyblade is more special than his Masamune (in the KH world, anyway), so he wants it. It's kind of amusing, actually.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
...FFX's Masamune. Actually, I note that everyone made this mistake. So, I'll have to resort to CAPS LOCK! Unleash the Fucking Fury! for this next remark: READ THE CONTEXT, GOD DAMN IT!

Context in which you also spoke of Buster, in which the most well known and talked of Masamune in the series is from.

I'd like to see some videos. Complete with them smacking it against a hard surface. Because most people who know a thing or 2 about physics tell me that it would snap due to the ratio between the tang & the rest of the blade.

Depends on the metal. Buster is essentially a thicker Zweihander or Zanbato. In essence, the idea that the handle would snap is ludicrous, since the tang is the rest of the blade. If the blade and the handle are a single piece of metal, even though the handle is a natural weak point, the weight of the blade will not be enough to snap the handle, any more than a man's weight will destroy a section of metal flooring.

First, don't tell me what to do. Second, I know. Third, it's an unofficial nickname. Fourth, I'm going to keep using it, because it's simpler than, "The sword Cloud uses in AC."

Fusion Sword.

I believe it's the Fusion Sword, but not 100% sure. That's not to hard to type, right? :)

Fusion sword was used on several occasions, even as the header of the section describing it in RF.

Fusion Sword is also a nickname. No more or less viable than First Tsurugi.

It actually appears in official materials, is said by more than one person, isn't a mistake made by english readers trying to parse a transcription of the director's commentary, and is the header of the section discussing the sword.

It's also referring to the whole set, and First Ken is only the central blade to which the others attach.

Edit: And besides, First Tsurugi is more widely-known. I'm compromising the VERY slight bit of additional accuracy I'd get from Fusion Sword to get my point across.

Except that very slight bit of accuracy is the difference between being very wrong and being correct.

...There's no need to infer that from Kingdom Hearts, Cloud actually says "Only Sephiroth can use that sword" in FF7 about the Masamune.

Though he's technically wrong, and should revise that to 'effectively'.

And all Sephiroth's referring to there is the numerous references to the Keyblade and that it chooses the people that can use it.

Further, there's no indication that the statement is self reflexive regarding him and mune at all.
He can wield Masa not because he's 'chosen' to wield it, but simply because he's capable.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
"...I wonder if it won't change its mind once I defeat you." In other words, the Keyblade is more special than his Masamune (in the KH world, anyway), so he wants it. It's kind of amusing, actually.

Maybe, but I have a hard time believing he'd put down his sword for a key. I always gathered he was saying that he would humiliate Sora so much that the Keyblade would reject Sora as its weilder - which it did when he doubted himself in KH1.
 

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
Ryu, I saw a Play Arts figure of Cloud with Fenrir and the fusion swords earlier today. The info on the back of the box identified the sword as "Cloud's signature Buster Sword".
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Ryu, I saw a Play Arts figure of Cloud with Fenrir and the fusion swords earlier today. The info on the back of the box identified the sword as "Cloud's signature Buster Sword".
Wat. :monster:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Yeah, because merchandising and box advertisements are surely the best source :monster:

The FFXII Gabranth play arts doesn't even get the name right for his two weapons. The toy company doesn't know crap about the actual canon.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
Context in which you also spoke of Buster, in which the most well known and talked of Masamune in the series is from.

It was obvious that my post was my commentary on the weapons mentioned thus far in the thread (context). The most recent--possibly only--Masamune mentioned up to that point was Auron's.

As for the First Tsurugi/Fusion Sword thing, I've only seen Fusion Sword used unofficially up until now, hence why I've been under the impression that it was also a nickname. I don't suppose you have a reference?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It's called the Fusion Sword several times in the AC Reunion Files.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Ryu, I saw a Play Arts figure of Cloud with Fenrir and the fusion swords earlier today. The info on the back of the box identified the sword as "Cloud's signature Buster Sword".

Ah, Merch. How shoddy the packaging of it all is.

Still sounds amusing. Pictars, I demands them.

Yeah, because merchandising and box advertisements are surely the best source :monster:

The FFXII Gabranth play arts doesn't even get the name right for his two weapons. The toy company doesn't know crap about the actual canon.

In other words, this.

It was obvious that my post was my commentary on the weapons mentioned thus far in the thread (context). The most recent--possibly only--Masamune mentioned up to that point was Auron's.

Apparently, it was not, otherwise it would have been obvious and the mistake would not have been made.

As for the First Tsurugi/Fusion Sword thing, I've only seen Fusion Sword used unofficially up until now, hence why I've been under the impression that it was also a nickname. I don't suppose you have a reference?

Frosty's links say it all.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
First Ken. Ken.

I'd a shame if people are going to use the wrong name, they can't use the correct wrong name :monster:
 

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
My friend replied about the three weapons, here's what she had to say.

Fenikkusuken said:
Cloud/Strife's weapon is a classic zanbato and saw battlefield action according to the historical record. These massive swords of Chinese origin (called zhan ma dao) made their way to Japan just prior to the Heian Era; they were used by heavy infantry against mounted calvary units, but there are doubts as to their effectiveness because they were so damn heavy! They were used primarily as a stabbing/hacking weapon due to the straight blade.

Sephiroth's 'Masamune' blade does have a few real-life examples enshrined as 'heavenly swords' in Japanese temples. The real blades are ten to fifteen feet long and are more than likely meant to be showstopper examples of the swordsmith's art as opposed to actual military-use weapons, mainly due to weight and therefore slower reaction times on the part of the user. If a regular 30" katana (blade length) weighs in the neighbourhood of 3lbs (including hilt), then a 144" (12 foot) example weighs in at roughly 12lbs. That's bloody heavy! Try hefting a 10lb bag of sugar or flour a few times in one hand and you'll see what I mean! Curved blades are primarily slashing weapons, and the weight of 'Masamune' would in reality put Sephiroth's back/shoulder out due to the torque of the follow-through.

Squall's 'Gunblade' is also based on real-life examples of pistols combined with swords; I've seen them in European collections, mostly dating to the 17th century and highly elaborate examples in Asian collections from the 18-early 19th centuries. The fact that the detachable bayonet became standard in most armies tells you how practical the gunblade was in battle. Basically, the weapon was trying to combine both hand-to-hand and distance fighting aspects, but didn't do either very well, which is why development was abandoned. The pistol-grip handle is one of the weakest styles of hilts, best suited to a thin rapier-like blade, and you'll often seen this style in walking-cane swords. For effective use of a sword the size of Squall's, you'd need a hilt more like that seen on Ichigo's 'Zangetsu' (Bleach) to balance the weight of the weapon. The user of a gunblade would need incredible upper-body strength to brace the weapon in order to keep it level and fire it; effective one-handed operation is impossible.

As for the vibration-enhanced attacks used in the video games, to me they seem to squander the most effective aspects of a gunblade, which is the fact that you can pick off an enemy from a distance with the gun before closing the range to finish him off with the blade. If held steady enough, the blade could theoretically act like the barrel of a rifle to extend the pistol's range and thereby give the user even more of a distance advantage.


And yes Ryu, I know, I laughed when I saw that. I don't have a picture of the actual sentence, but this is the figure itself.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/cloud fenrir play arts/soulx00/Final Fantasy Figures/DSC01465.jpg

 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I can't remember, but it was something generic and wrong. The real names from the FFXII Ultimania are Chaos Blade for the main, larger weapon, and Highwaster for the other, smaller one.
 

XwingsofaresX

わたし は つか
the gunblade seems a little too complex for my taste, but in my opinion, it depends on design. Squall's gunblade from VIII didnt seem too realistic, but Yazoo's gunblade from AC was a bit more like it can exist in the real world. so, thats my idea.:joy:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Yazoo doesn't have a gunblade though...that's one of those wonderful "additions" to the english version of the Reunion Files that didn't exist in Japanese.
 

XwingsofaresX

わたし は つか
Yazoo doesn't have a gunblade though...that's one of those wonderful "additions" to the english version of the Reunion Files that didn't exist in Japanese.

oh, thanks for correcting me. his weapon just looks like a gunblade to me, so i dunno.:joy:
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
The deleted scene of him slashing at Cloud with it kinda hinted at that fact too, which is why I had originally thought that it was.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
For Xwing's benefit: The guns the Remnants use are called Velvet Nightmares.

For everyone else: Very well, I'll call it a Fusion Sword from now on.

Although personally, I think that name is gay.

As for the gunblade thing, it's not as effective as you might thing. They do exist IRL (pistol swords), Drake's friend is right about that. However, it was very different from a bayonet, which was just a detachable, dagger-like blade attached to the end of the weapon.

Wikiquote:
Pistol swords were not widely used and became uncommon relatively quickly, due to their expense and because instead of getting two weapons in one, one got a heavy pistol and a heavy, off-balance sword, as shown by the poor performance of the Elgin pistol.[11]

As for the zanbato, Wikipedia & various other websites will tell you that its usage "is disputed," & it was probably more for ceremonial purposes. If it was used, it was likely very much the same as the Pistol Sword: It looked good on paper, but it didn't work in real life.

As for evidence that a sword like the Buster Sword, with about an inch-wide handle & a foot-wide blade, probably made of either steel or iron, could possibly work IRL, even if you were "strong enough," I'm still waiting for evidence.

Edit: Particularly, I want to see it crash against a solid object, preferably metal, several times with no damage to the hilt.
 
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ForceStealer

Double Growth
What does it matter if it would work or not? You already said you liked other swords despite the fact that they would not work.

But the hilt would not freaking break, it goes the whole way up the sword. The sword is simply impractical, not a functional impossibility
 
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Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
For Xwing's benefit: The guns the Remnants use are called Velvet Nightmares..
The gunblade looking weapons are called that. No idea what Kadaj's is called, however.
 
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