The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Splintered]

Maybe, since then I've found more of the quotes on the web but no real source for them. I thought I once saw a quote that explicitly said, yes there are two heroines, one for the first half and the second, but the ones I saw more implied the fact. Although implied pretty strongly.

Thanks.

 

[jazzflower92]

In a way both of them play a different aspect of the female main protagonist. Tifa plays more into the supportive romantic aspect while Aerith plays into the overall scheme of the plot

 

[Dashell]

I think it's telling that we need an actual quote to support they're both heroines and protagonists

 

[NeoCrimson]

Excuse me, I'm curious about something about the Squall and Rinoa's romance. Is in the topic "The Love Triangle Debate (Round 6)" in the page 351.

Likewise, Squall and Rinoa do not begin with "favors" applying to them. She doesn't fall for him until the end of the first disc when he saves her from the Iguions and says "Just stay close to me." Both Rinoa herself and the Ultimanias have pointed out that moment as the moment she fell in love with him.

Squall, for his part, doesn't fall for her until after she's gone into a coma, and he realizes how much he misses her. Up to that point, he was mostly annoyed by her and was opposed to the idea of being her boyfriend. He knew that to be what she wanted and knew their friends were trying to set them up too..

About that, my question is, On which page of the Ultimania is it mentioned the "favors" of this quote?
Thanks.

 

[Dante]

Hi guys, Dante has a question.

Why did Hito translate kobito as lover for Noel & Yeul and Snow & Serah in Tres's newest article but has not updated the Clerith translation even though its been officially translated as such in the French version of CoL?

On pg. 10 of the FFXIII-2 Ultimania Omega guidebook, Noel and and Serah are only described as “partners” (パートナ&#12540 while Serah and Snow are still described as “koibitos” (恋&#20154 — meanwhile, Yeul is identified as Noel’s “taisetsu na sonzai” (大切な存&#22312, or “important person.”

Added to that, Yeul is referred to as Noel’s koibito on pg. 18 of the same book:

(translation by hitoshura)
—
“Your time-gazing friend”
Noel, a descendant of the Farseer tribe, has heard about Valhalla and the gates from Yeul, the Farseer maiden from his time and his lover. Because Lightning also knows this, she is hinting at Yeul with the expression “your time-gazing friend.”
—

Japanese text:
—
「時を視る彼女」
時詠みの一族の末裔であるノエルは、ヴァルハラやゲートについて、同時代の時詠みの巫女であり恋人だったユールがら聞いていた。ライトニングもそれを知っているため、「時 を視る彼女」という表現でユールのことを示唆している。

I do not want to debate the validity of the French translation as it is official but it seems as if kobito has two meanings? One for Clerith as beloved and one for every other couple.

I have heard that the whole novella is written in third person limited, which would imply that ONLY Aerith's feelings are described in the novella. If the whole novella was written in third person omniscient, then the feelings of other characters would be described in the novella, too.

If the sentence "Cloud was [Aerith's] friend, lover" was describing how Cloud feels about Aerith as well as how Aerith feels about Cloud, then "koibito" would have to be translated as "lover" because it's describing both of their feelings. I don't think this is impossible because CoL:White does describe the feelings of characters other than Aerith.

These examples would appear to indicate that CoL:White *IS NOT* written in third person limited. The feelings of characters other than Aerith are described in CoL:White. For example:

Paragraph One: "The man could sense the Lifestream trying to erode his spirit– the memories of his former experiences, thoughts and emotions. If he allowed himself be taken into the current, the being he once was would soon disseminate and disappear amongst the spirit energy cycling around the planet. The man thought this unacceptable. The planet was to be his to rule, and to become a part of that system would be nothing short of defeat."

That's describing the feelings of Sephiroth, not Aerith.

Paragraph Eight: "The woman discovered that there was a growing number of spirits within the Lifestream who refused to be absorbed by it. While they were different from the man’s spirit, they rejected the Lifestream due to the same emotion. Hatred. Their feelings towards the planet were steeped in hatred, just like that man’s. This is the result of his influence reaching the surface, she thought. The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream, spirits filled with hate, and tried to heal them."

That's describing the hatred felt by new souls entering the Lifesream. Hatred isn't what Aerith feels - that feeling is felt by the new souls entering the Lifesream. So it's discussing what the other souls feel, not Aerith.

Paragraph Eight: "She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking."

That's describing the feelings of Ancients other than Aerith. It says the other Ancients accepted what Aerith was doing, so it's describing how the other Ancients felt about what Aerith was doing.

These are just a few examples, but because CoL;White and Black describes the feelings of characters other than Aerith, then isn't it really written in third person omniscient, not third person limited. Because CoL:White appear written in third person omniscient, then "koibito" should be translated as "lover" - not "beloved". Why hasn't this been updated in the fan translation? The official translation not being translated as beloved appears to me to validate my point that CoL is written in third person omniscient as kobito is not translated to the French version of the word beloved.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

About that, my question is, On which page of the Ultimania is it mentioned the "favors" of this quote?
Thanks.

It was done in a couple of places -- pg. 232-233 of the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character guide and pg. 121 of the 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2.

Hi guys, Dante has a question.

Why did Hito translate kobito as lover for Noel & Yeul and Snow & Serah in Tres's newest article but has not updated the Clerith translation even though its been officially translated as such in the French version of CoL?

There are several reasons:
-hito doesn't concern himself with updating translations he did years ago, particularly when his life is as busy as it has been over the past year and he hasn't even been able to work on new translations

-Wording picked for official translations doesn't invalidate alternate but equally valid wording used in fan translations (official translations have errors all the time anyway; for example, the French word used in that official translation is the kind of lover one cheats on their spouse with, even though that's obviously not what was meant to be implied =P)

-We have no desire for fan translations conducted prior to official translations to then be edited into copies of the official translations; our work is work, their work is their work

-hito did originally translate the word in Lifestream White as "lover"; MakoEyes987 asked him if he minded changing it to "beloved" because it looks and sounds prettier/more romantic

-"Beloved" is an accurate meaning of "koibito" and doesn't preclude the simultaneous applicability of "lover" in either English or Japanese, while "lover" carries a sexual connotation in English that "beloved" does not (again, one's used more for romantic sounding stuff)

tl;dr: It isn't a big deal.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Oh my god there were no posts for like a month we were doing so well

 

[Dana]

I like the word beloved being used, myself. It has a nice poetic feel. I really don't believe it was meant as some slight to Cloud/Aerith fans by the translator/this site or anything. You know how many times the datalog in XIII calls Serah Snow's beloved? It's adorbs.

 

[Splintered]

Hey Hito, why don't you use a translation of a translation of the original source, instead of your own translation of the original source? Obviously because you are bias scum.

It's almost like in other fandoms where there is an english adaptation, translators still have their own opinion on ways things are translated. Oh my.

The word koibito has been discussed to death, even before case of white. Koi Bito for example. Good times.

 

[Strangelove]

i was so happy when this topic was silent

-hito did originally translate the word in Lifestream White as "lover"; MakoEyes987 asked him if he minded changing it to "beloved" because it looks and sounds prettier/more romantic

i actually put 'sweetheart' in the original draft because of the reunion files (though i wasn't 100% about going with that)

the reason i used other words for ultimanias and the like is that i translate those in a different style than prose fiction. ultimanias/etc are information books so i do those in a more straightforward fashion than i do fiction, where i take more liberties rather than just straight up replacing each word for what the dictionary says. (though as tres said, this particular liberty was mako's suggestion and i still think it sounds nicer than 'lover').

unless there was some grievous error i don't tend to go back and edit things that are already complete. it's a product of its time and can stay that way. why go back and change it now because a french version came out? didn't the german version go with a 'beloved' translation? why does the french version matter more than the german one?



why did i post in this topic again

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Which German version?

 

[Tetsujin]

This one

 

[Dante]

i was so happy when this topic was silent


i actually put 'sweetheart' in the original draft because of the reunion files (though i wasn't 100% about going with that)

the reason i used other words for ultimanias and the like is that i translate those in a different style than prose fiction. ultimanias/etc are information books so i do those in a more straightforward fashion than i do fiction, where i take more liberties rather than just straight up replacing each word for what the dictionary says. (though as tres said, this particular liberty was mako's suggestion and i still think it sounds nicer than 'lover').

unless there was some grievous error i don't tend to go back and edit things that are already complete. it's a product of its time and can stay that way. why go back and change it now because a french version came out? didn't the german version go with a 'beloved' translation? why does the french version matter more than the german one?



why did i post in this topic again

Thanks for your reply. Of course I meant no disrespect to your translations. I just noticed and figured I would ask rather than possibly make a wrong assumption. Thank you for your reply too Tres. I was just curious and did not want to make a false assumption. That happens far too much in the LTD. Being a multishipper and Clerith means I don't usually get involved in LTD's much.

Can either of you too link me to the official German scan of Geschichte des Lebensstroms (Case of Lifestream)? I would be curious to see the word used for beloved as I speak German as well.

Hey Hito, why don't you use a translation of a translation of the original source, instead of your own translation of the original source? Obviously because you are bias scum.

It's almost like in other fandoms where there is an english adaptation, translators still have their own opinion on ways things are translated. Oh my.

The word koibito has been discussed to death, even before case of white. Koi Bito for example. Good times.

If I truly thought Hito was biased I would not have bothered asking my question rather than make a hasty generalization which you appeared to have done. I am also a multishipper so Clerith is not the exclusive pairing I ship.

 

[Dante]

Hito,

If you got the German version of CoL from this site:

http://cetraconnection.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile/geschichte-des-lebensstroms/

I can understand why you might think the kobito is translated as beloved but that site is not a scan of the text, so its a fan translation. Furthermore,

Cloud war ihr Freund, ihr Liebster – ein Symbol für etwas, was ihr wichtig war und jemand, den es zu schützen galt.

In "Google translate" (a site I never use as its usually pretty terrible at grammar)

Cloud was her friend, her lover - a symbol of something that was important to her and someone had to be protected.

Freund means boyfriend because the fact that it is capitalized. Liebster means lover/sweetheart/boyfriend definition. In any case, its a mutual term. Beloved in German has a paramour context and its most commonly used term is geliebte (mistress).

Fan-Übersetzungen

Lange lagen die Geschichten nur auf Japanisch vor, obwohl es schnell diverse Fan-Übersetzungen in verschiedenen Sprachen gab. Erst 2011 gab es eine offizielle deutsche Übersetzung des Buches mit allen Geschichten. (Eine offizielle englische Übersetzung aller Geschichten gibt es nicht!) Wir haben schon vor vielen Jahren Fan-Übersetzungen angefertigt und bieten sie hier an. Bitte beachtet, dass die hier angebotenen ersten drei Geschichten aus den ursprünglichen Quellen heraus übersetzt wurden. Die Geschichten über Denzel, Tifa und Barret in dem 2009 bzw. 2011 veröffentlichten Buch weichen von ihrer ursprünglichen Fassung ab.

This statement on there site indicates its a fan translation and there translation is different than the 2011 one (which would be official).

I am not interested in debating kobito as we agree it means lover, I just like linguistics. I don't think the French translation is better than the German one, I just like official translations personally because it tends to decrease argument over interpretation of the words.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Tets, I think we've had that exchange before

Not that I disagree with you Dante, but Tets is an actual German

Spoiler

Pretty sure

 

[Ⓐaron]

Tetsujin is indeed German. I think we can take his word on German language matters.

 

[Dante]

The Amazon link Tetsujin linked is the official link. I am not contending that. The site I think most people think of when they think of the German version are what I linked to.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I wish I had more understanding of the nuance to all languages. From just Googling, I see "geliebter" defined as both "beloved" and "lover" in different (sometimes the same) places. The best I think we have to go by is how German folk take it, and I have seen a couple of German folk (Tets and then Lady Lifestream over at the Cloud x Aerith forums) say it comes off as "beloved" to them.

Particularly since Tets doesn't really care about the LTD, and since Lady Lifestream actually ships Clerith, I feel like "beloved" is probably the best way to take it, but, again, I have no understanding of the nuances of the language and why it's more likely to mean one thing in one sentence and something else in another.

 

[Tetsujin]

Cloud war ihr Freund, ihr Liebster – ein Symbol für etwas, was ihr wichtig war und jemand, den es zu schützen galt.

In "Google translate" (a site I never use as its usually pretty terrible at grammar)

Cloud was her friend, her lover - a symbol of something that was important to her and someone had to be protected.

Freund means boyfriend because the fact that it is capitalized. Liebster means lover/sweetheart/boyfriend definition.

Freund can mean both friend or boyfriend. There is no way to make a proper distinction in the German language though. Every noun is capitalized in German.
Liebster I would actually translate as dearest/beloved, though not as lover. I think the Geliebter/beloved translation would sound better in this case (and that is what the official German translation went with iirc).

 

[Dante]

Interesting. Thanks for the linguistics lesson. I was just going off definitions from linguee.de (the online dictionary) which my professor recommended. Anyway, do you have a scan of the official German translation?

 

[Dashell]

Weren't even the German Cleriths questioning this? I thought I remembered reading that

There was an article or something I think saying that it was weird... i dunno

did I dream this?

 

[Skan]

From my general understanding, If you want to say "my friend who is male," you would say "ein Freund von mir," a (male) friend of mine. If you want to say "my boyfriend," you would say, "mein Freund." The noun itself does not distinguish between friend or SO. If I were reading the translation above (ihr Freund), I would immediately assume that it's talking about "her boyfriend." If the translator wanted to imply otherwise, I believe it would be "ein Freund von ihr," a friend of hers.

I think there are some cases where people will assume you're talking strictly about a friend, like if you're female and you say, "meine Freundin," or male and saying "mein Freund," but I never got around to asking about that ...

Source: my German instructors who said they had a laugh over reading about everyone's multiple girlfriends and boyfriends in our essays.

 

[Dante]

Weren't even the German Cleriths questioning this? I thought I remembered reading that

There was an article or something I think saying that it was weird... i dunno

did I dream this?

Hey Q. I think no one's actually seen an official scan. The unofficial translation apparantly was all anyone could find. Anastar questioned whether Clerith was canon after these two translations since it has not been translated into English yet. Other people disagree and say Clerith is canon which would be cool and is my personal opinion. That's probably what you are referring to.

 

[Dante]

From my general understanding, If you want to say "my friend who is male," you would say "ein Freund von mir," a (male) friend of mine. If you want to say "my boyfriend," you would say, "mein Freund." The noun itself does not distinguish between friend or SO. If I were reading the translation above (ihr Freund), I would immediately assume that it's talking about "her boyfriend." If the translator wanted to imply otherwise, I believe it would be "ein Freund von ihr," a friend of hers.

I think there are some cases where people will assume you're talking strictly about a friend, like if you're female and you say, "meine Freundin," or male and saying "mein Freund," but I never got around to asking about that ...

Source: my German instructors who said they had a laugh over reading about everyone's multiple girlfriends and boyfriends in our essays.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier to Tet. Thanks.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel like there were scans going around back when this thing was first released, but I can't seem to find one. I would have swore I saved one, but I guess not.