So you're saying it's still valid to view "koibito" as meaning "beloved" despite the French translation using "lover"?
yes, because what the french translation says doesn't mean anything when you're interpreting the japanese version. i've said that a bunch of times
If "koibito" has two meanings in Japanese, and the source material isn't obvious enough, then yes, they do.
and if no french translation was released? if no translation was ever released? they're doomed to wallow in uncertainty forever?
the original version is complete on its own (even if it is ambiguous in places, because that's not a problem), it doesn't need a translation to make it whole.
I'd say they were unofficial lovers by the time she died, but lovers in the eyes of everyone else. IMO, they will eventually reunite together in their Promised Land that is within the lifestream, similar to Dyne and his wife, Eleanor.
well, that's all you're ~opinion~ i guess. what exactly are 'unofficial lovers'?
Why would sex be the automatic assumption? Couldn't they have simply shared a kiss?
sex is the assumption because did you read what you were replying to?
me: was there a sexual component to their relationship, as can be implicit in 'amant'?
you: The screen fading to black at the end of their date.
your reply to this, about sexual connotations (because of the adulterous connotations of 'amant'), was to bring up the date ending with a fade to black. now you're asking why sex is assumed when the scene fades to black
you really need to stop doing this, where you lead a conversation in another direction then act surprised that's where it ended up
The French translation gives credibility to interpreting "koibito" as "lover" rather than "beloved".
not even going to copy my reply this time
of course it is, that's why i put 'maybe'. i'm not say that's fact.
what do you call 'someone at square who knows french and japanese will have looked over the manuscript' despite there being no evidence anyone did? because you've been bannering that around with impunity so far
Yeah. You'd rather take fan translations over official translations that are done by people that are trained in the field of translating, and have been given the go-ahead by Square Enix.
i personally don't take fan translations over official ones??
i just read them in japanese and take that over translations??
you act like any criticism of official translations is tantamount to saying 'all and every official translation is worthless and should be disregarded' or something. but it's not. they're fine most of the time, just not perfect 100% of the time. in which case you look at the original.
If I'm going to take an educated position on which way to interpret the original Japanese text, using the official French translation is one of the tools I'd use.
are you saying people who don't take the french translation are using an 'uneducated position'?
maybe the most educated position would be to look at the original language the text was actually written in. the one the actual author wrote it in.
i'll let that sink in for a minute
The purpose is to let people who don't speak Japanese have access to the same information.
why are you telling me this that's literally what i already said to you
you're the one saying that japanese fans should wait for things to be translated before they can fully understand them, because translations are apparently meant to tell people how they should read the original version
experience? i've seen enough examples of it? i'm sure other people have probably seen more since i don't usually actively go looking at translations any more
one of the things anime and manga fans who use fan subs and scans like better about them (excluding 'it's free') is the fact that they are seen to be more faithful and closer to the original than the officially licensed versions. they think it's more authentic, and are less likely to change things like cultural references into american things. they think that because it's fans doing the work, there's more love and respect going into it than with a company hired to do the work who just wants to turn a profit and aim for the widest audience possible.
which in some cases isn't true, and the average fan might not have the ability to judge which is more accurate. but it's not like it never happens. that's why they started released 'uncut' versions, because people complained about this practice.
professional translation/localisation for a mass market isn't about making a literal and faithful rendition about the original, but about making a product the company believes will have the most appeal in their market. even if that means changing things. sometimes for censorship or cultural reasons, other times just because they think that's what is better for their intended audience
just going back to square, ffxiii used 'the maker' instead of the more direct 'god', the aforementioned changes to lightning returns' ending, changing the ages of characters in bravely default
(before you bring up the 'koibito' quote again, this isn't about that quote. this is about officially licensed translations taking liberties. which is what i said before, and what you were asking for proof of)
have you ever heard of the game 'chaos wars'? the developer who made that gave the localisation rights to some small company who proceeded to make one of the worst dubs ever made, mainly because the ceo just seemed to get his family to do the voices. sometimes companies just sell the rights and don't really care. like all those anime companies who sell the rights to america where they make dubs that hack the story up. is that how the original creators wanted their show to be viewed, rather than the way they made it? i mean, they sold the rights to these companies. some are more picky about it, but others just seem to let things happen.
it's not like square have shown much interest in bringing the novels to the west. they have dozens of them for a bunch of games, some of which add backstory to the games. yet so far all they've done is release this one book, years after the release of both the novel and the film it was meant to accompany, in europe. they really don't seem that concerned about them, they're more of an afterthought
now can i get some proof that square actually took the time to look over and 'approve' the novel translations, and didn't just sell the rights and leave it at that?
The final scenes of Lightning Returns in English CHANGED the tone of the ending. But the French translation didn't CHANGE the meaning of the word "koibito," it simply ascribed one of the two valid meanings to it. Your comparison is invalid.
'beloved' and 'lovers' are different in implication. 'beloved' is describing aerith's feelings, but doesn't specify exactly what their relationship is. 'lovers' locks it in as a relationship that has advanced to the point of a mutually expressed and recognised romantic relationship. (cloud being described as unaware of aerith's feelings, even on their date, doesn't sound like they both recognise this.)
a relationship which apparently square decided to keep vague (because everyone needs to use the french translation to understand it) until they released a book that's like 5 years old in france just now
(unless you want to believe that 'amant' is informing us that aerith was already in a relationship with someone and took cloud as a lover on the side, which is a ~perfectly valid meaning~ of 'amant')
The French translation of "koibito" doesn't make the Japanese version incorrect, it simply ascribes one of the two valid meanings to it.
to the french version. nothing else
i guess i missed the part of school where everyone pulls out the french translations (that they can't even understand) of shakespeare in order to properly understand what the english version means
If "koibito" has two meanings in Japanese, then yes, Japanese fans will need to look at other translations if they want to find out which of the two meanings to apply to the word "koibito".
that is fucking ridiculous i'm sorry
you're saying square expects people who don't even know these languages to go search out what these translations say, because the original book they released wasn't good enough or something
But the original has two interpretations. Therefore, using this official French translation is one way to determine which of the two interpretations is correct. Sure, "koibito" could still mean "beloved," but that's far less likely now that we have the official French translation.
you're right, it is one way. but it's by no means the most valid (especially since you're cherry picking the french translation over the german one just because the french one says what you want to hear)