The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Cannon_Fodder]

Except, apple, that Cloud's likely to develop at least some amount of friendship with the trio before the collapse due to the extended amount of time he's likely to spend with them. So their loss very likely will affect him much more than you think. Losing three friends, especially all at once, isn't something you can just shrug off. And Cloud's not likely to, either. It's likely to hit Tifa hard too, because you forget that she's probably known them almost as long as Barret has and so she's already developed good friendships with them.

Losing those friends is something that would fuel Cloud's desire to protect those around him and keep them from suffering a similar fate and thus, it would contribute to his overall growth and development. Especially if Jessie (since she's the last of the three he sees in the pillar) during her last exchange with him were to have him promise to keep fighting and stop Shinra (regardless of whatever possible tender angle the conversation might or might not have, depending on the player's prior choices). And a desire to keep such a promise and honor his fallen friends in that way would certainly contribute to his heroic arc, especially since we know he's a guy who keeps his word.

I don't mean this as a shitty "Gotcha!" statement or anything, but I just want to point out that you said this to a different poster:

There's too much we haven't seen. So it doesn't make sense to say things with any amount of certainty. Unless you've seen the script and SE's internal documents, you don't know what they're going to do with it, none of us really do.

 

[Jairus]

That's why I put things in terms of "possibly" and "likely" as much as I can. I try very hard to avoid saying anything for certain, Cannon, because I'm aware there's a lot we don't know yet. I just want it to be acknowledged that it goes both ways, is all. And I would agree, apple, that the effects of the trio's loss on Cloud and Barret would be somewhat different between them, yes. But I do think Cloud will be affected by it, and possibly more than some people think.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The loss of Wedge, Biggs and Jessie represents a turning point for Cloud that was under-written in the OG. It's interesting that Tifa is moved more by the deaths of everybody living under the Sector 7 plate, and her go-to reaction is to blame herself, while Barret's grief is moved by the loss of named individuals who were close to him, for whom he feels personally responsible. He never forgets them. Cloud isn't and should not be as close to J, B and W as Tifa and Barret are, but their deaths stir something personal in him. The thing is, though, at this point he's still a poor-connected mess of a person with limited affect. Having Jessie evoke a romantic response in him at this stage of the game (literally) would be too soon in his story arc, I think. Any response she does evoke should be un-genuine, Cloud's subconscious imitating Zack's ladies' man persona.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That pretty succinctly sums up my feelings as well, @LicoriceAllsorts -- it's well and good for the new script to "put more meat on the bones," so to speak, but upon extensive reflection, I'm just not going to be able to put my support behind fundamental rewriting of main character arcs or their thematic resonance.

At the end of the day, the loss of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge needs to have a more profound impact on Barret than it does Cloud, or even Tifa. That belongs to his character arc. Cloud's initial softening needs to be largely attributable to Aerith. That belongs to their arcs.

And as far as the potential romantic angle goes, as I've said recently on this same topic, the question of "What could have been?" belongs to Cloud and Aerith's arcs. The thought of "Not again" comes into play for Cloud in "Advent Children Complete," not the original game.

There are such things as narrative frugality and thematic economics to consider. Those have always been particularly important with FFVII in my mind.

Absolutely Cloud needs to be affected by the loss of the Tragic Avalanche Trio, but treating it as a personal loss -- to be grouped alongside his mother, Aerith, and Zack -- just doesn't ring true for me.

 

[Jairus]

I just don't get why you don't think the loss of three friends, especially all at once, wouldn't be a personal loss. He's very likely going to get to know them better than in the OG, which I think keeps being forgotten. And that's likely to affect how much their loss affects him. Also, there's no reason Jessie can't possibly contribute at least somewhat to his softening - I never said it should be just her, it shouldn't and of course Aerith should play a role in it. I'm just saying she doesn't have to be the only one anymore, not with how much more he's likely to get to know Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge in Part 1. And also, he has to progress farther in his development in Part 1 than he did in Midgar in the OG because Part 1 is a complete game and thus, he has to have some growth.

You have to toss ACC out the window as far as the "not again" thing because the remake is its own thing and not really connected story-wise to the Compilation. Just visual elements and Easter eggs, from what we've seen so far. And besides, if any potential romantic interactions with Jessie were purely optional to begin with, being determined solely by player choices via the affection mechanic like the original - then what's the harm in it? What's the harm in having something that is not being forced but is completely up to the player? What's the harm in having her taking the same spot in the date mechanic that Yuffie did in the original? What's the difference?

You cannot go just by what happened in the OG or its pacing and development. Things are going to be different in the remake in many ways, and it's important to remember that. And there's a big difference, TTM, between losing someone he may have (depending on player choice) felt something for (Jessie) that he only just realized too late but never acted on or spoke to her of until it was too late, and someone (Aerith) who he could have actually begun an involvement with by the time of her loss. There's a romantic angle to both, but it's different in each both in progression and intensity, and enough that it keeps them and their impact separate and thus, could still work. Don't assume that romantic angle must mean full-on or the same depiction and development in each case. That's not what I've ever been saying

Lic, Cloud's mental struggles are why I mentioned the example I did, of him addressing Jessie's admission of her feelings by (again, depending on player choice) saying he wasn't ready for anything like that now but that he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something with her when he is ready and simply saying that he needs some time. Just because he's struggling doesn't mean he can't or couldn't feel anything. He's a human being, and so by definition, he can feel. Even things he wasn't planning or expecting to feel and even in the midst of other things happening.

Besides, your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well. And you don't generally flirt with someone you don't feel at least some attraction to.

 

[a_apple]

I just don't get why you don't think the loss of three friends, especially all at once, wouldn't be a personal loss. He's very likely going to get to know them better than in the OG, which I think keeps being forgotten. And that's likely to affect how much their loss affects him. Also, there's no reason Jessie can't possibly contribute at least somewhat to his softening - I never said it should be just her, it shouldn't and of course Aerith should play a role in it. I'm just saying she doesn't have to be the only one anymore, not with how much more he's likely to get to know Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge in Part 1. And also, he has to progress farther in his development in Part 1 than he did in Midgar in the OG because Part 1 is a complete game and thus, he has to have some growth.

You have to toss ACC out the window as far as the "not again" thing because the remake is its own thing and not really connected story-wise to the Compilation. Just visual elements and Easter eggs, from what we've seen so far. And besides, if any potential romantic interactions with Jessie were purely optional to begin with, being determined solely by player choices via the affection mechanic like the original - then what's the harm in it? What's the harm in having something that is not being forced but is completely up to the player? What's the harm in having her taking the same spot in the date mechanic that Yuffie did in the original? What's the difference?

You cannot go just by what happened in the OG or its pacing and development. Things are going to be different in the remake in many ways, and it's important to remember that. And there's a big difference, TTM, between losing someone he may have (depending on player choice) felt something for (Jessie) that he only just realized too late but never acted on or spoke to her of until it was too late, and someone (Aerith) who he could have actually begun an involvement with by the time of her loss. There's a romantic angle to both, but it's different in each both in progression and intensity, and enough that it keeps them and their impact separate and thus, could still work. Don't assume that romantic angle must mean full-on or the same depiction and development in each case. That's not what I've ever been saying

Lic, Cloud's mental struggles are why I mentioned the example I did, of him addressing Jessie's admission of her feelings by (again, depending on player choice) saying he wasn't ready for anything like that now but that he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something with her when he is ready and simply saying that he needs some time. Just because he's struggling doesn't mean he can't or couldn't feel anything. He's a human being, and so by definition, he can feel. Even things he wasn't planning or expecting to feel and even in the midst of other things happening.

Besides, your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well. And you don't generally flirt with someone you don't feel at least some attraction to.

I feel like you're too obsessed with Jessie to look at this subject more matter of factly...
she is a side character she won't be anything more for Cloud. First of all, she isn't popular enough to get that kind of treatment. And secondly, it would add nothing to the overall story. Too be honest here, from what we have seen so far, it seems to me that the Cloud/Tifa angle is what will get the most development in the Remake. Keep in mind tho that we are talking about trailers, it all might be just bait

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just don't get why you don't think the loss of three friends, especially all at once, wouldn't be a personal loss. He's very likely going to get to know them better than in the OG, which I think keeps being forgotten. And that's likely to affect how much their loss affects him.

They're not going to make it into the same Venn diagram circle for him as Zack and Aerith. They just aren't.

He will be sad about their passing in much the same way he's sad about the deaths of people he knew from Nibelheim who weren't his mom, but they aren't going to be included in the definition of the great personal tragedy that is his life in the way Zack, Aerith, his mom, or even his hometown at large are.

That's not his story; it wouldn't particularly improve upon his story to pick up any additional great personal losses as motivation; and I am confident Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase recognize all of this.

Also, there's no reason Jessie can't possibly contribute at least somewhat to his softening - I never said it should be just her, it shouldn't and of course Aerith should play a role in it. I'm just saying she doesn't have to be the only one anymore ...

She was never the only one. I said that it was largely attributable to her and should remain so.

And also, he has to progress farther in his development in Part 1 than he did in Midgar in the OG because Part 1 is a complete game and thus, he has to have some growth.

He had some growth by the time they left Midgar in the original game.

You have to toss ACC out the window as far as the "not again" thing because the remake is its own thing and not really connected story-wise to the Compilation.

The specifics of that aren't clear right now, but what is clear is our ability to analyze the overuse of plot elements or dilution of character-specific roles as they apply to the characters across their depictions in various media.

Of course, given how played out the relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth is, perhaps I'm expecting too much sobriety from the development team already. =P

And besides, if any potential romantic interactions with Jessie were purely optional to begin with, being determined solely by player choices via the affection mechanic like the original - then what's the harm in it? What's the harm in having something that is not being forced but is completely up to the player?

There isn't any, but that's not really how you keep approaching this topic.

You consistently raise the topic as a matter of what it could offer in narrative value, then retreat into describing and defending it as a harmless optional player mechanic once others have responded unfavorably to the idea from the perspective of narrative value. You don't stick to discussing the topic on the same terms upon which you raise it.

I don't think you realize you're doing this, though.

What's the harm in having her taking the same spot in the date mechanic that Yuffie did in the original?

I shouldn't need to keep pointing out that Yuffie never had an even halfway serious place in that mechanic in the original game -- which is the opposite of what you're proposing. Yet you keep invoking an apparently one-sided crush that was played for laughs in one scene, then never came up again no matter what the player chose to do.

If Cloud was even interested in Yuffie, nothing inside the game or out has ever said so. Here you're proposing for Jessie something of narrative comparability to the situation with Aerith, but advocating for its inclusion by conflating the suggestion with a gameplay option that ultimately yielded something opposite in tone.

Surely you see why going that route reads like a non sequitur.

And there's a big difference, TTM, between losing someone he may have (depending on player choice) felt something for (Jessie) that he only just realized too late but never acted on or spoke to her of until it was too late, and someone (Aerith) who he could have actually begun an involvement with by the time of her loss.

Jai, what you described right there for Cloud and Jessie is literally the circumstances that apply to he and Aerith. There is no active involvement between Cloud and anyone prior to Aerith's death, nor could there have been. That is very much part of the tragedy of it.

And that applies no matter how one played the game. Regardless of player choice, all roads ended in a mystery where Aerith and Cloud are concerned.

Lic, Cloud's mental struggles are why I mentioned the example I did, of him addressing Jessie's admission of her feelings by (again, depending on player choice) saying he wasn't ready for anything like that now but that he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something with her when he is ready and simply saying that he needs some time.

That is far more coherent, insightful and mature than any sentiment Cloud has ever been shown expressing about romance -- whether in the original game or the Compilation, during his fractured mental state or after.

For that matter, he didn't even know he was messed up while he was messed up. He very well can't express that he needs to get himself sorted out when his psychosis blocks him from recognizing the very reality that he has one. =P

 

[Roger]

I feel it bears pointing out that yes, new content will be added to the Remake but by no means will it all be before Jessie's death. We see her a lot in trailers because the trailers are from the beginning of the game mostly.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tres has made the same reply I was going to make, Jairus. Cloud can't say he's "not ready" because he doesn't know he's not ready. He doesn't even know who he is. The persona he presents to others is fake, but he doesn't know that. Like I said, at this point in the game he has very limited affect. The terrible tragedy of Sector 7 does, I think, manage to reach him, the real him deep inside, but only as a faint and distant echo. It's not like what Tifa and Barret feel. He's far, far more concerned about Aerith. It would be odd and jarring to allow the possibility of romance with Jessie to develop, only for him to brush her death aside and focus exclusively on rescuing Aerith, which is where the plot goes immediately after Sector 7. It would be equally odd and, I think, unpopular with fans if Cloud were to spend any length of time mourning Jessie. He needs to set off immediately in pursuit of Aerith, thus providing Tifa and Barret with the direction and purpose they so badly need at this juncture.

Unless they're planning to completely re-write his character arc, the only way I can see a romance with Jessie developing is in his fake persona as Zack-lite. Tifa remembers the real Cloud, and Aerith knew the real Zack, but Jessie could easily be fooled into thinking Cloud's Zack-self is his real self. She wouldn't know any different.

 

[Jairus]

They're not going to make it into the same Venn diagram circle for him as Zack and Aerith. They just aren't.

Unless you've seen SE's game script and internal documents, you can't say anything for sure.

He will be sad about their passing in much the same way he's sad about the deaths of people he knew from Nibelheim who weren't his mom, but they aren't going to be included in the definition of the great personal tragedy that is his life in the way Zack, Aerith, his mom, or even his hometown at large are.

Again, you're saying things with a certainty that you cannot have given we've seen so little of the game. The remake is not the OG.

That's not his story; it wouldn't particularly improve upon his story to pick up any additional great personal losses as motivation; and I am confident Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase recognize all of this.

You don't know that because you don't know how it would be implemented or play out. You're making judgements about things you haven't even seen yet. That makes a difference, how something happens being as important as what happens.

She was never the only one. I said that it was largely attributable to her and should remain so.

I understand that, but there's no reason Jessie couldn't be included in that given how much more interaction she'll have with him this time around. Obviously not to the same degree as Aerith, but it doesn't have to be none at all, either.

He had some growth by the time they left Midgar in the original game.

Yes, but he's likely to have much more than that by the end of Part 1, and as he'll have had significantly more time with the trio than in the OG, his friendships with them and their loss will likely play a part in that.

The specifics of that aren't clear right now, but what is clear is our ability to analyze the overuse of plot elements or dilution of character-specific roles as they apply to the characters across their depictions in various media.

Of course, given how played out the relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth is, perhaps I'm expecting too much sobriety from the development team already.[ /quote]

If similar plot elements and roles are implemented differently, in different ways to give them their individual feel, then there's no danger of overuse.

There isn't any, but that's not really how you keep approaching this topic.

You consistently raise the topic as a matter of what it could offer in narrative value, then retreat into describing and defending it as a harmless optional player mechanic once others have responded unfavorably to the idea from the perspective of narrative value. You don't stick to discussing the topic on the same terms upon which you raise it.

I don't think you realize you're doing this, though.

It's because people seem to keep confusing the two. They don't need to be exclusive.

I shouldn't need to keep pointing out that Yuffie never had an even halfway serious place in that mechanic in the original game -- which is the opposite of what you're proposing. Yet you keep invoking an apparently one-sided crush that was played for laughs in one scene, then never came up again no matter what the player chose to do.

If Cloud was even interested in Yuffie, nothing inside the game or out has ever said so. Here you're proposing for Jessie something of narrative comparability to the situation with Aerith, but advocating for its inclusion by conflating the suggestion with a gameplay option that ultimately yielded something opposite in tone.

Surely you see why going that route reads like a non sequitur.

The point is that she was a part of it, and what I'm talking about is the simple existence of a third option in the date mechanic, which she has already provided precedent for in the original. Jessie's feelings for Cloud are a part of her character, and they've been deliberately played up in Part 1 from what we've seen so far. Think about it. In the demo alone, she's much more flirtatious both in intensity and frequency than in the OG, and it wasn't even the entire reactor mission. If they've increased it this much in just this small part of the game, how much more of it are we bound to see across the rest of the game, if the demo is any indication?

I doubt they'll leave her feelings unaddressed as they did in the OG, given what they've done with them so far. And having her as a third option in the affection mechanic would be one way to address that, even if it's a more serious tone than how they did Yuffie in the original. And that's what I'm saying. Including her as a third option doesn't have to be comedic like Yuffie was. Still optional, but fleshed out and more serious.

Jai, what you described right there for Cloud and Jessie is literally the circumstances that apply to he and Aerith. There is no active involvement between Cloud and anyone prior to Aerith's death, nor could there have been. That is very much part of the tragedy of it.

And that applies no matter how one played the game. Regardless of player choice, all roads ended in a mystery where Aerith and Cloud are concerned.

That was the OG. The remake doesn't necessarily have to follow the same path. Cloud and Aerith could be beginning to be involved by the time of her loss (possibly depending, again, on player choice). The reason the OG had no active involvement is because it was meant to be up to player choice and interpretation. So there's still room for his romantic potentials with Jessie and Aerith to play out differently in the remake. Again, it's all in the implementation, the how.

That is far more coherent, insightful and mature than any sentiment Cloud has ever been shown expressing about romance -- whether in the original game or the Compilation, during his fractured mental state or after.

For that matter, he didn't even know he was messed up while he was messed up. He very well can't express that he needs to get himself sorted out when his psychosis blocks him from recognizing the very reality that he has one. =P

Well, he doesn't have to know anything specific to feel that something might be off and be a bit wary about being involved with anyone until he figures it out, even if it's just a vague feeling he can't really identify yet. Especially with his visions and stuff, he could be afraid of her getting hurt if he gets too close to her too soon, which would fit with his tendency to be protective of the girls around him and not wanting them in danger.

Apple, you don't know what it would add because, as I've said, it's all in the implementation and how it's done. And being an NPC doesn't mean she can't be liked or get development. You can't say anything for certain because there's too much we haven't seen. So please stop acting like you've seen all of SE's development materials, internal documents, and other stuff when you haven't. And there's no reason, with a remake, that certain characters have to stay limited to what they were before and not be given more. You forget that SE specifically said in past interviews that they wanted to really develop Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge in the remake and really explore their characters. So their popularity will likely go way up with the remake once it hits.

Rog, they didn't have to show her at all, or in the situations she's in. I know there's going to be new content after platefall as well, of course there is. But it's likely that'll be pushed as late into the game as possible to maximize our time with the AVALANCHE trio. But as I was saying before, they deliberately chose to show Jessie as much as they have, and they deliberately chose to create those scenes and events with her and Cloud together the way they were. They didn't have to have her with him on the bike. They could have just as easily created the scene in such a way as to give them each a bike or put Biggs behind him instead. But they didn't.

They deliberately chose to put Jessie there, in a position and situation that would fuel her attraction to Cloud. And they didn't have to have her looking at Cloud during the parachute scene, but they chose to have her do that after she looks away from Biggs. And then (in the trailer, at least), flashed to a closeup of him. And they didn't have to have her give him the materia, but again, they deliberately chose to have her do it. All of these scenes and elements as well as every other part of the game are very likely planned and storyboarded well in advance and for very specific reasons, not just what they are but how they are. Everything you see on screen in any game, movie, show, or whatever is there for a reason, decided upon long before the scenes are shot or created. Not only that, but the choice of scenes and parts of scenes used for the trailers also matters.

As I said, they chose to include Jessie in the trailers, and fairly prominently at that, even though they didn't have to. They chose to include closeups of her and Cloud together, even though they didn't have to - and they didn't even have to have closeups of them in the scene at all but could have kept the camera zoomed out on all four of them the whole time. But they didn't. They chose to focus on Cloud and Jessie in those moments, and they chose to include them in the trailers. It's not something that should just be dismissed.

I've said this before, but there's an attitude that some people seem to have about certain characters and their development, that they're fine with them getting more but only within certain very limited parameters, especially in terms of Jessie and her relationship with Cloud. "Sit down, shut up, and don't even think about being more than you are." But is that attitude right? If a character has the opportunity to grow and expand beyond what they once were, is it right to deny them that simply because some people might be uncomfortable with certain aspects of that growth? Especially if those aspects were made purely optional?

Lic, as I said above, Cloud doesn't have to know anything specific to still have a vague feeling that something might be off. And you don't know that they'll set off right away like they did in the OG. The remake is not the OG. I feel like people keep forgetting that. And again, I think you're assuming something full-on developing when I never said it had to be like that. There can also be a balance between mourning and action, it doesn't have to go overboard in either direction, and some people don't stop but rather grieve as they act. It doesn't have to be either/or. And by saying he wouldn't have much concern for the trio's loss, Lic, you make him sound callous and uncaring when he's really not, and their loss is a place where that can really be shown.

Something else about Jessie that you might not remember is that unlike Tifa and Aerith, she doesn't really want anything from Cloud. She doesn't twist his arm into staying with a childhood promise or see flashes of an old boyfriend in him. She's just there and simply wants to be with him. She's actually the first of the girls we see do something nice for him, and without expecting anything in return - giving him a materia, showing him the train route and making him a special ID. Sure the ID didn't work out so well, but all she wanted was to help him and make him happy and notice her even a little. While Aerith and Tifa have other reasons for what they do that they can't even tell him.

And again, any potential romantic interaction would likely be optional, as per the affection mechanic and the choices the player makes. So if it is, and it doesn't have to be seen if one doesn't want to, what does it hurt? Why fight something you wouldn't have to do or see anyway?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know the Remake isn't the OG, but nobody wants a new story with a new character arc for Cloud. The whole point about Cloud in the first part of the OG is that he doesn't seem to have any idea there is anything off about him; it's everybody else who notices. As far as he's concerned, he's a smooth-talking hard-living ex-SOLDIER 1st class mercenary. He doesn't remember anything between attacking Sephiroth in the Jenova chamber at the Nibelheim reactor and working for Avalanche in Midgar. I'm not even sure he remembers meeting Tifa at the train station. As I keep saying, he has very few authentic emotions, and almost none that he is conscious of. The first time he shows real concern for another human being is when he decides they must urgently rescue Aerith from Shinra. (I'm not saying this is because he doesn't care about Tifa; it's because he's such a fragmented human being).

If he wasn't like this, he wouldn't be Cloud, and then the Remake would be about some another, new character, also called Cloud, that nobody really cares about.

 

[ForceStealer]

I've said this before, but there's an attitude that some people seem to have about certain characters and their development, that they're fine with them getting more but only within certain very limited parameters

While there are others of us that appear to have a fixation on a certain character...

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Something else about Jessie that you might not remember is that unlike Tifa and Aerith, she doesn't really want anything from Cloud. She doesn't twist his arm into staying with a childhood promise or see flashes of an old boyfriend in him. She's just there and simply wants to be with him. She's actually the first of the girls we see do something nice for him, and without expecting anything in return - giving him a materia, showing him the train route and making him a special ID. Sure the ID didn't work out so well, but all she wanted was to help him and make him happy and notice her even a little. While Aerith and Tifa have other reasons for what they do that they can't even tell him.

Without seeing SE's game script or internal documents, we don't know any of this about Jessie. The remake isn't the OG, so maybe she wants something from Cloud this time around?

And story content being optional does not make it exempt from criticism. To use a radical example, if they add the ability to revive Aerith--even if it's optional!--I'm going to moan and complain about that until I'm senile.

 

[youffie]

Tetsuya Nomura
In the scene where they parachute into Midgar. You wanted everyone to die there!

Yoshinori Kitase
Really? Wait, I’m starting to remember …

Tetsuya Nomura
Yeah, remember? You and [writer Kazushige] Nojima-san were all excited about this. I was the one who said ‘No way!’ and stopped you guys. You wanted to kill everyone except the final three characters the player chose for the endgame.

[…]

The theme of Final Fantasy VII was ‘life,’ and we sacrificed Aerith in order to give weight and depth to that theme. Her death is a tragedy but, if we suddenly just killed off everyone else after that, it would dilute the meaning of her death.

[…]

When a character in a video game dies, no one thinks it’s that sad. They’re just characters in a game, after all — you can just reset the game and try again, or you can always revive them somehow. I felt that their lives just didn’t have much weight. With “life” as our theme for FF7, I thought we should try depicting a character who really dies for good, who can’t come back. For that death to resonate, it needed to be an important character. So we thought killing off the heroine would allow players to think more deeply about that theme.

This is from Final Fantasy 7: An Oral History, a relatively recent article with insightful interviews on the genesis of the original game. To me, having Jesse fill a very similar role as Aeris would be a bad idea not just because Cloud's love life is enough complicated as it is. There's a real risk that pushing that angle would dilute the meaning of Aeris's death, which also happens to be one of the most influential deaths in gaming history. I don't have the remake's scripts, but I do hope that Nomura has still such a firm grasp on the legacy of the game that he personally contributed to create. He's the one who notoriously "killed" Aeris after all.

This is not about who's the best partner for Cloud. Adding even optional romantic undertones to Jesse would ultimately lead to a weaker and less impactful version of Aeris’s death, not because Jesse doesn’t “deserve” to be expanded, but because Aeris is one of the most important playable characters in the story, arguably even more important than Cloud himself. She’s the last Ancient, in certain ways she’s a better foil to Sephiroth than Cloud, everything about her screams “female protagonist who ends up with the male protagonist,” and then she just dies without even getting to say a proper goodbye. Making sure that her death resonates loud and clear like it has been doing for more than twenty years should be more important than a bonus romance option with a side character, no matter how lovely or interesting that side character might be.

 

[Jairus]

I know the Remake isn't the OG, but nobody wants a new story with a new character arc for Cloud. The whole point about Cloud in the first part of the OG is that he doesn't seem to have any idea there is anything off about him; it's everybody else who notices. As far as he's concerned, he's a smooth-talking hard-living ex-SOLDIER 1st class mercenary. He doesn't remember anything between attacking Sephiroth in the Jenova chamber at the Nibelheim reactor and working for Avalanche in Midgar. I'm not even sure he remembers meeting Tifa at the train station. As I keep saying, he has very few authentic emotions, and almost none that he is conscious of. The first time he shows real concern for another human being is when he decides they must urgently rescue Aerith from Shinra. (I'm not saying this is because he doesn't care about Tifa; it's because he's such a fragmented human being).

If he wasn't like this, he wouldn't be Cloud, and then the Remake would be about some another, new character, also called Cloud, that nobody really cares about.

Except that he has to have real progression in Part 1 since it's an entire, full story. So he probably won't be what you say he is nearly as long as you think. He'll likely start to change sooner. And I don't think it's ever officially made clear how much he does or doesn't remember of the time between Nibelheim and the first reactor mission, so you can't say for sure that he doesn't remember anything at all. He is human, therefore he can feel and has feelings, even if he doesn't always understand it.

While there are others of us that appear to have a fixation on a certain character...

I wouldn't even be keeping this discussion going if people didn't keep responding and beating down whatever I say like nothing I think has any value. That's how it feels when you all gang up on me like that and insist that only your way can ever be right and nothing else could ever possibly work because it seems like you're only looking at it in a few certain ways and not allowing that it could be done in ways you haven't even thought of.

Without seeing SE's game script or internal documents, we don't know any of this about Jessie. The remake isn't the OG, so maybe she wants something from Cloud this time around?

And story content being optional does not make it exempt from criticism. To use a radical example, if they add the ability to revive Aerith--even if it's optional!--I'm going to moan and complain about that until I'm senile.

Being optional also doesn't make it exempt from being possible, either. And while it's not the OG, they've kept pretty close to the original characterizations. So she probably still won't want anything from him. Just realize that there may be ways to carefully implement such an option that you haven't even considered or thought of.

This is from Final Fantasy 7: An Oral History, a relatively recent article with insightful interviews on the genesis of the original game. To me, having Jesse fill a very similar role as Aeris would be a bad idea not just because Cloud's love life is enough complicated as it is. There's a real risk that pushing that angle would dilute the meaning of Aeris's death, which also happens to be one of the most influential deaths in gaming history. I don't have the remake's scripts, but I do hope that Nomura has still such a firm grasp on the legacy of the game that he personally contributed to create. He's the one who notoriously "killed" Aeris after all.

This is not about who's the best partner for Cloud. Adding even optional romantic undertones to Jesse would ultimately lead to a weaker and less impactful version of Aeris’s death, not because Jesse doesn’t “deserve” to be expanded, but because Aeris is one of the most important playable characters in the story, arguably even more important than Cloud himself. She’s the last Ancient, in certain ways she’s a better foil to Sephiroth than Cloud, everything about her screams “female protagonist who ends up with the male protagonist,” and then she just dies without even getting to say a proper goodbye. Making sure that her death resonates loud and clear like it has been doing for more than twenty years should be more important than a bonus romance option with a side character, no matter how lovely or interesting that side character might be.

Except that Jessie dies before Aerith, and not after, and already has several things in common with her - they're the same age, both are interested in Cloud, both are lively and energetic, both try to help him in different ways, and both have a period of forced separation from him before seeing him again just prior to their deaths, among other things. And as I already said, if the two different arcs are implemented differently enough, then there's no risk of dilution. And Aerith's loss will not come for probably another three to five years. Do you really think they're going to wait that long to hit us with a moment like that when they can do it right now in Part 1?

And you don't know that adding optional romantic undertones to Jessie would weaken the impact of Aerith's death. It's in a completely separate game that's at least several years away. And besides, as I've said before how those undertones are implemented and how far they go can be very different between the two women, and that very contrast would keep Aerith's loss from being diluted, as you say. Her death - which does not happen in Part 1 - can still resonate like you want it while still having that optional affection path available in Part 1 with Jessie. Having that available doesn't mean it has to play out the same way as Aerith's does. It can be done differently, so that each is distinct from the other and thus, wouldn't interfere with each other.

It's like people simply assume any path with Jessie, even optional - and thus, able to not be seen at all - would get in the way of Aerith without even waiting to see how it plays out first to decide or to even consider that there may be ways to implement such a thing that wouldn't hinder Aerith's arc. But SE said they want to surprise us with the remake. What better disruption and surprise than to throw a wrench into the old LTD? They probably know what people are expecting to see in regards to it, and letting Jessie into it for Part 1 would be a way to play on those expectations and completely throw them off. I think people's knowlege of the OG may limit their thinking in considering new possibilities and how they may be implemented. Just remember that there may be more ways to do things that the ways you happen to think of, so don't be so quick to dismiss an idea just because you personally haven't thought of a way it could be done.

 

[a_apple]

Except that he has to have real progression in Part 1 since it's an entire, full story. So he probably won't be what you say he is nearly as long as you think. He'll likely start to change sooner. And I don't think it's ever officially made clear how much he does or doesn't remember of the time between Nibelheim and the first reactor mission, so you can't say for sure that he doesn't remember anything at all. He is human, therefore he can feel and has feelings, even if he doesn't always understand it.



I wouldn't even be keeping this discussion going if people didn't keep responding and beating down whatever I say like nothing I think has any value. That's how it feels when you all gang up on me like that and insist that only your way can ever be right and nothing else could ever possibly work because it seems like you're only looking at it in a few certain ways and not allowing that it could be done in ways you haven't even thought of.



Being optional also doesn't make it exempt from being possible, either. And while it's not the OG, they've kept pretty close to the original characterizations. So she probably still won't want anything from him. Just realize that there may be ways to carefully implement such an option that you haven't even considered or thought of.



Except that Jessie dies before Aerith, and not after, and already has several things in common with her - they're the same age, both are interested in Cloud, both are lively and energetic, both try to help him in different ways, and both have a period of forced separation from him before seeing him again just prior to their deaths, among other things. And as I already said, if the two different arcs are implemented differently enough, then there's no risk of dilution. And Aerith's loss will not come for probably another three to five years. Do you really think they're going to wait that long to hit us with a moment like that when they can do it right now in Part 1?

And you don't know that adding optional romantic undertones to Jessie would weaken the impact of Aerith's death. It's in a completely separate game that's at least several years away. And besides, as I've said before how those undertones are implemented and how far they go can be very different between the two women, and that very contrast would keep Aerith's loss from being diluted, as you say. Her death - which does not happen in Part 1 - can still resonate like you want it while still having that optional affection path available in Part 1 with Jessie. Having that available doesn't mean it has to play out the same way as Aerith's does. It can be done differently, so that each is distinct from the other and thus, wouldn't interfere with each other.

It's like people simply assume any path with Jessie, even optional - and thus, able to not be seen at all - would get in the way of Aerith without even waiting to see how it plays out first to decide or to even consider that there may be ways to implement such a thing that wouldn't hinder Aerith's arc. But SE said they want to surprise us with the remake. What better disruption and surprise than to throw a wrench into the old LTD? They probably know what people are expecting to see in regards to it, and letting Jessie into it for Part 1 would be a way to play on those expectations and completely throw them off. I think people's knowlege of the OG may limit their thinking in considering new possibilities and how they may be implemented. Just remember that there may be more ways to do things that the ways you happen to think of, so don't be so quick to dismiss an idea just because you personally haven't thought of a way it could be done.

Let me be blunt here, Jessie has no relevance. Nothing the devs said hinted that she will become anything more than the rest of the og avalanche gang. You're obsession with her is clouding your mind.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Without seeing SE's game script or internal documents, we don't know any of this about Jessie. The remake isn't the OG, so maybe she wants something from Cloud this time around?

In case Cannon's point isn't clear enough, this is another thing you're inconsistent about when discussing this topic. If someone invokes the original game, you're very quick to say that this isn't the original game -- but you show no such hesitation when saying something like "your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well."

What's your justification that this is likely? Because of the original game and literally nothing else, yes?

You're being awfully intellectually dishonest with us, and I fear yourself as well.

Unless you've seen SE's game script and internal documents, you can't say anything for sure.

Really now, let's not go there. Let's look at what you've said in just this one post I'm replying to:

Yes, but he's likely to have much more than that by the end of Part 1, and as he'll have had significantly more time with the trio than in the OG, his friendships with them and their loss will likely play a part in that.

...

I understand that, but there's no reason Jessie couldn't be included in that given how much more interaction she'll have with him this time around.

...

Rog, they didn't have to show her at all, or in the situations she's in. I know there's going to be new content after platefall as well, of course there is. But it's likely that'll be pushed as late into the game as possible to maximize our time with the AVALANCHE trio.

One of those times you even forgot to use "likely." =P

But let's get real: you can claim that you "try very hard to avoid saying anything for certain," but when you're insisting upon "likely" as much as you are (and it's a lot -- 30 times since you began this shit show about 80 hours ago), you're effectively claiming "all but certain" -- if not "definitely certain."

Especially as you obtusely condescend to people with cringingly myopic comments like "You seem to be going only on what you think is most likely, not necessarily what is or could be."

So let's just pretend I had said --

"They're not likely going to make it into the same Venn diagram circle for him as Zack and Aerith. They likely just aren't.

He will likely be sad about their passing in much the same way he's sad about the deaths of people he knew from Nibelheim who weren't his mom, but they likely aren't going to be included in the definition of the great personal tragedy that is his life in the way Zack, Aerith, his mom, or even his hometown at large are.

That's not his story; it likely wouldn't particularly improve upon his story to pick up any additional great personal losses as motivation; and I am confident Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase are likely to recognize all of this."

But as I was saying before, they deliberately chose to show Jessie as much as they have, and they deliberately chose to create those scenes and events with her and Cloud together the way they were. They didn't have to have her with him on the bike. They could have just as easily created the scene in such a way as to give them each a bike or put Biggs behind him instead. But they didn't.

They deliberately chose to put Jessie there, in a position and situation that would fuel her attraction to Cloud. And they didn't have to have her looking at Cloud during the parachute scene, but they chose to have her do that after she looks away from Biggs. And then (in the trailer, at least), flashed to a closeup of him. And they didn't have to have her give him the materia, but again, they deliberately chose to have her do it. All of these scenes and elements as well as every other part of the game are very likely planned and storyboarded well in advance and for very specific reasons, not just what they are but how they are. Everything you see on screen in any game, movie, show, or whatever is there for a reason, decided upon long before the scenes are shot or created. Not only that, but the choice of scenes and parts of scenes used for the trailers also matters.

As I said, they chose to include Jessie in the trailers, and fairly prominently at that, even though they didn't have to. They chose to include closeups of her and Cloud together, even though they didn't have to - and they didn't even have to have closeups of them in the scene at all but could have kept the camera zoomed out on all four of them the whole time. But they didn't. They chose to focus on Cloud and Jessie in those moments, and they chose to include them in the trailers. It's not something that should just be dismissed.

And the purpose could only be what you're suggesting? Or -- let me rephrase -- it's likely to only be what you're suggesting?

I've said this before, but there's an attitude that some people seem to have about certain characters and their development, that they're fine with them getting more but only within certain very limited parameters, especially in terms of Jessie and her relationship with Cloud. "Sit down, shut up, and don't even think about being more than you are." But is that attitude right?

There's a terrible irony here that -- while you're passing bullshit inaccurate judgments on other people -- you're acting like "being more" could only mean having a romantic entanglement with the lead character.

To anyone being reasonable, that is actually what sounds like "very limited parameters," and you come across as the only one with a predetermined agenda.

That's without even getting into your complete disregard for the points being brought to the table about how your suggestions may negatively impact other characters or the wider narrative structure.

If a character has the opportunity to grow and expand beyond what they once were, is it right to deny them that simply because some people might be uncomfortable with certain aspects of that growth?

Is it right to confine their growth to a single possible direction? =P

I wouldn't even be keeping this discussion going if people didn't keep responding and beating down whatever I say like nothing I think has any value.

Dude, it is you and only you who continuously raises the topic when it's not even being discussed otherwise.

Now lose the pity party. Everyone here has some pet theory, ship, pipedream, or political opinion (shit that matters a tad more than ships) that doesn't get pulled into the warmth of everyone else's bosom.

Grow the hell up. You have one idea that people think is shit. If that's the worst you ever do, you'll be sitting pretty. Seriously, though, grow up.

That's how it feels when you all gang up on me like that and insist that only your way can ever be right ...

So now you're resorting to outright lying about people who disagree with your one idea? That's not a good look on an adult.

... and nothing else could ever possibly work because it seems like you're only looking at it in a few certain ways and not allowing that it could be done in ways you haven't even thought of.

It has been thought about endlessly at this point, courtesy of you. Articulate, contemplative people still disagree for many articulate reasons they have contemplated and articulated to you. This is not people having irrational knee-jerk reactions. Only you are doing that.

 

[Jairus]

In case Cannon's point isn't clear enough, this is another thing you're inconsistent about when discussing this topic. If someone invokes the original game, you're very quick to say that this isn't the original game -- but you show no such hesitation when saying something like "your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well."

What's your justification that this is likely? Because of the original game and literally nothing else, yes?

You're being awfully intellectually dishonest with us, and I fear yourself as well.

I never said to disregard the OG completely. Just to not rely on it alone.

Really now, let's not go there. Let's look at what you've said in just this one post I'm replying to:

One of those times you even forgot to use "likely." =P

But let's get real: you can claim that you "try very hard to avoid saying anything for certain," but when you're insisting upon "likely" as much as you are (and it's a lot -- 30 times since you began this shit show about 80 hours ago), you're effectively claiming "all but certain" -- if not "definitely certain."

Especially as you obtusely condescend to people with cringingly myopic comments like "You seem to be going only on what you think is most likely, not necessarily what is or could be."

So let's just pretend I had said --

"They're not likely going to make it into the same Venn diagram circle for him as Zack and Aerith. They likely just aren't.

He will likely be sad about their passing in much the same way he's sad about the deaths of people he knew from Nibelheim who weren't his mom, but they likely aren't going to be included in the definition of the great personal tragedy that is his life in the way Zack, Aerith, his mom, or even his hometown at large are.

That's not his story; it likely wouldn't particularly improve upon his story to pick up any additional great personal losses as motivation; and I am confident Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase are likely to recognize all of this."

I use the word because I don't want to simply say "is" or "will be". Because doing that is claiming certainty, and I wasn't trying to claim certainty no matter what you may think. I was just trying to say that it might affect him more than you think because it's possible he'll have begun to develop friendships with them by the time of the plate collapse. Losing friends affects a person more than just losing fellow townsfolk.

And the purpose could only be what you're suggesting? Or -- let me rephrase -- it's likely to only be what you're suggesting?

I'm not saying anything for certain. I'm just saying, adding all that together, it just seems like it's too much to just ignore or dismiss, is all.

There's a terrible irony here that -- while you're passing bullshit inaccurate judgments on other people -- you're acting like "being more" could only mean having a romantic entanglement with the lead character.

To anyone being reasonable, that is actually what sounds like "very limited parameters," and you come across as the only one with a predetermined agenda.

That's without even getting into your complete disregard for the points being brought to the table about how your suggestions may negatively impact other characters or the wider narrative structure.

No, I never said that was the only part of her character and growth that should be expanded. I was just saying that that part doesn't necessarily have to be left out, is all. And people are only saying what they think it would do. We haven't seen enough of the game to know for sure. And we don't know enough about how the characters and story have been expanded for the remake to say whether it would harm them or not. It just seems to be an automatic assumption that it would.

Is it right to confine their growth to a single possible direction? =P

Again, I never said anything about confining her to that. I was only saying, again, that that part doesn't necessarily have to be left out. Of course I want the rest of her character developed as well. It just seems like everyone else wants to confine her by not even allowing the possibility of that aspect to even be addressed, let alone explored.

Dude, it is you and only you who continuously raises the topic when it's not even being discussed otherwise.

Now lose the pity party. Everyone here has some pet theory, ship, pipedream, or political opinion (shit that matters a tad more than ships) that doesn't get pulled into the warmth of everyone else's bosom.

Grow the hell up. You have one idea that people think is shit. If that's the worst you ever do, you'll be sitting pretty. Seriously, though, grow up.

You misunderstood me. What I was saying is that if people didn't keep arguing with me after the initial post I made here, I wouldn't have kept responding. I wasn't talking about the boards overall. And this thread is about Cloud and his love interests, so I don't know that it's entirely off topic to begin with. I never expected everyone to agree with me, I knew that wouldn't happen. I'm just asking you to think about how it feels to be disagreed with seemingly on all sides and have what you say, your idea, repeatedly bashed down.

So now you're resorting to outright lying about people who disagree with your one idea? That's not a good look on an adult.

I wasn't lying. I exaggerated, and I'm sorry for that and how I put it. But not one of you would at least concede the possibility that there might be a way it could work and allow for it. So in a way, people seemed to be insisting that what they thought was the only way it could be, that it could only ever not work.

It has been thought about endlessly at this point, courtesy of you. Articulate, contemplative people still disagree for many articulate reasons they have contemplated and articulated to you. This is not people having irrational knee-jerk reactions. Only you are doing that.

Yes, they've thought about it. But seemingly only within what they came up with or within the frame of reference of what they already know. I've seen no one allow for what they don't know and haven't come up with or thought of, that there might be ways or things they haven't thought of or don't know about yet that could allow it to work. I wasn't trying to have any knee-jerk reaction, and I'm sorry if I did. It's just that the more I'm disagreed with and argued with on an issue or idea that I care about, the more I dig in and try to stand my ground because of how surrounded I feel.

And apple, nothing they've said indicates that she won't or couldn't have some relevance, either. It goes both ways.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Yes, they've thought about it. But seemingly only within what they came up with or within the frame of reference of what they already know. I've seen no one allow for what they don't know and haven't come up with or thought of, that there might be ways or things they haven't thought of or don't know about yet that could allow it to work. I wasn't trying to have any knee-jerk reaction, and I'm sorry if I did. It's just that the more I'm disagreed with and argued with on an issue or idea that I care about, the more I dig in and try to stand my ground because of how surrounded I feel.

To be honest, I do feel for you. Really. The thrill of being "one vs. many" in the art of discussion isn't ideal for everyone. But, just as TTM pointed out earlier (and was part of my misunderstanding prior), I'm starting to feel that there's truly a split in this conversation with your approach that's causing a jarring effect in how this discussion is going—two different prospects divided by a line that people are expressing they don't want to necessarily cross for character construction reasons.

On one side, which is what I'm getting mostly, is that you're proposing that there're certain expressions that can be implemented through dialogue choices or even activity/side events that allow us, the player, to experience something with Jessie, which could also potentially be a part of the more non-optional, narrative impact on Cloud, as a character, moving forward after her death—which, would also be applied to Biggs and Wedge, as well, not necessarily tied to romance for all three in what this means for him. I don't doubt this, as we're getting the premise that this story “goes much deeper into the world and characters of FINAL FANTASY VII than ever before.” So, could this promise allow us to care about these characters more, and also create the opportunity to see this reflected in Cloud himself? Sure. If anything, I am expecting that in the very least for how it would make sense for their characters and their corresponding influence on the plot.

Then, on the other side of the line, you're also emphasizing a much more profound impact, mainly in regards to romanticism, that Jessie specifically could have on Cloud that honestly, if it amounted to what it would be that you're proposing, would be something that would hold meaning and relevance throughout the rest of the story—something that goes beyond the optional, not necessarily player dependent effect that we've seen given to Tifa/Aerith, and should arguably, still be reserved for them only. Especially, in regards to the LTD ideal here that goes beyond whatever Cloud experienced with Yuffie as a "third option". I believe this is where most people are really trying to draw the line in their reasoning of what could be done with Jessie's character in regards to Cloud's own as per romantic storytelling—her impact on his character wouldn't create a "wrench" such as this for the spectrum of his romantic feelings. I think mostly, the idea is that most people here are expressing that this would be unnecessary and ill-placed for Jessie's role in the story anyway.

Granted, these two sides of the line don't have to be mutually exclusive in ALL possible varying degrees, but I also don't attribute that setting a limit to either expectation is an attempt to simply just put you down Jairus, nor are we blatantly disregarding the spectrum of possibility (well, not everyone). If anything, we have considered it and provided reasons as to why we don't believe it'll be represented that far, for either side of the line people are talking about. This especially for the romantic aspect for the sake of Cloud's actual character, which for me personally, doesn't fit within even the Part 1 storytelling that he as a character will generate genuine romantic tones with her—something that should arguably thus be recognizable for him personally even after he regains himself later on. I don't believe that's the impact that Jessie, Biggs, or Wedge are meant to have on his character, honestly.

Yes, we don't know exactly what the Remake will entail. But, this doesn't really discount the framework of understanding one could use to surmise what would make sense for the character-narratives in what we know is still important for the story that is FFVII. The "universe of FFVII" is still going to be intact, as Nomura has put it, which this idea goes beyond just simply world-building concepts, but arguably also extends to certain character traits and background/development as well. There's a reasonable capacity we can have in our expectations of what will be expressed or what fits the bill for a story we still know quite a lot about despite the exciting expansion and depth that will be added that goes beyond what the original has done prior.

Either way, everyone stands where they do, just as much as you do. And that's fine. I hope I'm being c

If you believe that Jessie could potentially have a deeper, romantic impact on Cloud's character, not necessarily delegated to and/or dependent on just fun, optional dialogue/activities—then you have that, and that's fine—if that's truly what you're trying to get at other than the optional, player experience aspect. The same way that it is for people to not believe it'll be issued that way for his character and as part of the story even moving forward after her death. Not that I'm turning the cards away from the sake of discussion, but when I can tell people are at the "agree to disagree" stage, along with getting a bit verbal, it seems needless to keep going on something that is mainly hypothetical anyway.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I like this newcomer.

 

[Roger]

Except that he has to have real progression in Part 1 since it's an entire, full story. So he probably won't be what you say he is nearly as long as you think. He'll likely start to change sooner. And I don't think it's ever officially made clear how much he does or doesn't remember of the time between Nibelheim and the first reactor mission, so you can't say for sure that he doesn't remember anything at all. He is human, therefore he can feel and has feelings, even if he doesn't always understand it.

It's in a completely separate game that's at least several years away.

I think it is a mistake to look at it like this, it's multiple games, one story. The telling of Cloud's character arc will stretch well past this game, we do know that. He needs to still convinced of his own BS at the end of Midgar. I consider that as certain as Aerith still dying.

 

[youffie]

You know, the funny thing about this kind of options in games is that often they don’t really exist. They’re a crafty illusion that is more about how the player experiences certain events than about the characters or the story themselves. I currently work in videogame localization and two of my main projects so far have been choice-based games. You’d be amazed by how little the choices weight on the overall text. But that makes sense: the writers can’t create a wildly different game every time a choice appears, so while a character can be upset in choice A and fine in choice B, they still have to go back to the same shared route after said choices have played out, though the choices themselves may add up eventually.

This is especially true for the original game, where the fact that it’s all an illusion is driven home spectacularly when we gradually lose control over Cloud, only to find out that he has been subconsciously role-playing what his sixteen-year-old mind thinks is a cooler, badass version of himself, in an RPG that for many people has exactly that purpose. You can romance Barret to your heart’s content, and everybody should do that because Barret is awesome, but at the end of the day Cloud will still be devastated when Aeris dies because he cared deeply about her, and he will crumble to little pieces when he feels Tifa’s support slip from under him for just a second. That's just how the game is written, romancing Aeris or Tifa or both only amplifies what's already there and cannot be changed. The Cloud romancing Jesse and being crushed by the death of a blossoming love should be fundamentally the same Cloud who, while touched and shocked, is more focused on saving Aeris in that moment in time, and that’s no easy feat. That applies to the later parts as well: what happens in Part 1 should not be erased, but built upon. If a player romances Jesse and in the later parts Cloud is not that affected by her death specifically they'd feel cheated, and rightly so. The fact that it would “only” be optional doesn’t cut it for me.

Jairus, let me absolutely clear. I get why you’d want to see Cloud and Jesse have a thing. As far as side characters with no more than ten lines go, Jesse is great. I liked her even in the original game and from what we’ve seen in the trailer, she looks really fun and I can’t wait to get to know her better. And unlike Aeris or Tifa, she doesn’t have any personal or emotional baggage that might affect Cloud directly, so their relationship could be different and fresh. I was really into fanfictions ten or so years ago and let me tell you, back in my day, I liked some weird pairings that not only had no basis in the actual game, but were also probably illegal in several countries. #noregrets So nobody understands better than me the appeal of wanting to see certain dynamics play out because the characters would bounce off each other in interesting ways that speak to us. But the only reason I commented in the first place was that I’m afraid you’re zeroing in so much on this tiny aspect that you’re forgetting the big picture. I don’t even blame you, since Square Enix has begged us to only focus on Part 1 for now, but hopefully the remake “series” will be finished by the time we introduce Final Fantasy VII to our grandchildren, and when that finally happens, each Part has to fit into a cohesive whole that doesn't repeat the same concepts and arcs over and over again. Otherwise it’s a just a big mess.

Having Aeris’s death be something unique and unparalleled in the remake series at large and not just her own Part is not necessarily about what I want. It’s about what’s best for this remake, so that when newcomers get to Aeris’s death they’ll understand what the fuss was ever about, and won’t just go “Oh so I guess Aeris is the Jesse of this Part?” You’re right, the remake and the original game are two separate entities. That doesn’t change the fact that the remake should be first and foremost a celebration of what made the game stand out, and Aeris in particular dying just like that, with that kind of impact, was truly special.

That said, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just like to gush on the game. I’ve agreed to disagree on worse matters, so I think I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[ForceStealer]

Jairus hoping for the ObstinateMelon interpretation of Jessie's "special ID" she makes for Cloud.

Spoiler

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I like this newcomer.

That makes two of us. @MelodicEnigma, I am now a big fan.

Same to you, @youffie_17.

Jairus hoping for the ObstinateMelon interpretation of Jessie's "special ID" she makes for Cloud.

Spoiler

Hell, if it's an option, I'll take it too.

 

[Erotic Materia]

"Sir, this looks nothing like you"