I don't mean this as a shitty "Gotcha!" statement or anything, but I just want to point out that you said this to a different poster:Except, apple, that Cloud's likely to develop at least some amount of friendship with the trio before the collapse due to the extended amount of time he's likely to spend with them. So their loss very likely will affect him much more than you think. Losing three friends, especially all at once, isn't something you can just shrug off. And Cloud's not likely to, either. It's likely to hit Tifa hard too, because you forget that she's probably known them almost as long as Barret has and so she's already developed good friendships with them.
Losing those friends is something that would fuel Cloud's desire to protect those around him and keep them from suffering a similar fate and thus, it would contribute to his overall growth and development. Especially if Jessie (since she's the last of the three he sees in the pillar) during her last exchange with him were to have him promise to keep fighting and stop Shinra (regardless of whatever possible tender angle the conversation might or might not have, depending on the player's prior choices). And a desire to keep such a promise and honor his fallen friends in that way would certainly contribute to his heroic arc, especially since we know he's a guy who keeps his word.
There's too much we haven't seen. So it doesn't make sense to say things with any amount of certainty. Unless you've seen the script and SE's internal documents, you don't know what they're going to do with it, none of us really do.
I feel like you're too obsessed with Jessie to look at this subject more matter of factly...I just don't get why you don't think the loss of three friends, especially all at once, wouldn't be a personal loss. He's very likely going to get to know them better than in the OG, which I think keeps being forgotten. And that's likely to affect how much their loss affects him. Also, there's no reason Jessie can't possibly contribute at least somewhat to his softening - I never said it should be just her, it shouldn't and of course Aerith should play a role in it. I'm just saying she doesn't have to be the only one anymore, not with how much more he's likely to get to know Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge in Part 1. And also, he has to progress farther in his development in Part 1 than he did in Midgar in the OG because Part 1 is a complete game and thus, he has to have some growth.
You have to toss ACC out the window as far as the "not again" thing because the remake is its own thing and not really connected story-wise to the Compilation. Just visual elements and Easter eggs, from what we've seen so far. And besides, if any potential romantic interactions with Jessie were purely optional to begin with, being determined solely by player choices via the affection mechanic like the original - then what's the harm in it? What's the harm in having something that is not being forced but is completely up to the player? What's the harm in having her taking the same spot in the date mechanic that Yuffie did in the original? What's the difference?
You cannot go just by what happened in the OG or its pacing and development. Things are going to be different in the remake in many ways, and it's important to remember that. And there's a big difference, TTM, between losing someone he may have (depending on player choice) felt something for (Jessie) that he only just realized too late but never acted on or spoke to her of until it was too late, and someone (Aerith) who he could have actually begun an involvement with by the time of her loss. There's a romantic angle to both, but it's different in each both in progression and intensity, and enough that it keeps them and their impact separate and thus, could still work. Don't assume that romantic angle must mean full-on or the same depiction and development in each case. That's not what I've ever been saying
Lic, Cloud's mental struggles are why I mentioned the example I did, of him addressing Jessie's admission of her feelings by (again, depending on player choice) saying he wasn't ready for anything like that now but that he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something with her when he is ready and simply saying that he needs some time. Just because he's struggling doesn't mean he can't or couldn't feel anything. He's a human being, and so by definition, he can feel. Even things he wasn't planning or expecting to feel and even in the midst of other things happening.
Besides, your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well. And you don't generally flirt with someone you don't feel at least some attraction to.
I just don't get why you don't think the loss of three friends, especially all at once, wouldn't be a personal loss. He's very likely going to get to know them better than in the OG, which I think keeps being forgotten. And that's likely to affect how much their loss affects him.
Jairus said:Also, there's no reason Jessie can't possibly contribute at least somewhat to his softening - I never said it should be just her, it shouldn't and of course Aerith should play a role in it. I'm just saying she doesn't have to be the only one anymore ...
Jairus said:And also, he has to progress farther in his development in Part 1 than he did in Midgar in the OG because Part 1 is a complete game and thus, he has to have some growth.
Jairus said:You have to toss ACC out the window as far as the "not again" thing because the remake is its own thing and not really connected story-wise to the Compilation.
Jairus said:And besides, if any potential romantic interactions with Jessie were purely optional to begin with, being determined solely by player choices via the affection mechanic like the original - then what's the harm in it? What's the harm in having something that is not being forced but is completely up to the player?
Jairus said:What's the harm in having her taking the same spot in the date mechanic that Yuffie did in the original?
Jairus said:And there's a big difference, TTM, between losing someone he may have (depending on player choice) felt something for (Jessie) that he only just realized too late but never acted on or spoke to her of until it was too late, and someone (Aerith) who he could have actually begun an involvement with by the time of her loss.
Jairus said:Lic, Cloud's mental struggles are why I mentioned the example I did, of him addressing Jessie's admission of her feelings by (again, depending on player choice) saying he wasn't ready for anything like that now but that he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something with her when he is ready and simply saying that he needs some time.
They're not going to make it into the same Venn diagram circle for him as Zack and Aerith. They just aren't.
He will be sad about their passing in much the same way he's sad about the deaths of people he knew from Nibelheim who weren't his mom, but they aren't going to be included in the definition of the great personal tragedy that is his life in the way Zack, Aerith, his mom, or even his hometown at large are.
That's not his story; it wouldn't particularly improve upon his story to pick up any additional great personal losses as motivation; and I am confident Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase recognize all of this.
She was never the only one. I said that it was largely attributable to her and should remain so.
He had some growth by the time they left Midgar in the original game.
The specifics of that aren't clear right now, but what is clear is our ability to analyze the overuse of plot elements or dilution of character-specific roles as they apply to the characters across their depictions in various media.
Of course, given how played out the relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth is, perhaps I'm expecting too much sobriety from the development team already.[ /quote]
If similar plot elements and roles are implemented differently, in different ways to give them their individual feel, then there's no danger of overuse.
There isn't any, but that's not really how you keep approaching this topic.
You consistently raise the topic as a matter of what it could offer in narrative value, then retreat into describing and defending it as a harmless optional player mechanic once others have responded unfavorably to the idea from the perspective of narrative value. You don't stick to discussing the topic on the same terms upon which you raise it.
I don't think you realize you're doing this, though.
It's because people seem to keep confusing the two. They don't need to be exclusive.
I shouldn't need to keep pointing out that Yuffie never had an even halfway serious place in that mechanic in the original game -- which is the opposite of what you're proposing. Yet you keep invoking an apparently one-sided crush that was played for laughs in one scene, then never came up again no matter what the player chose to do.
If Cloud was even interested in Yuffie, nothing inside the game or out has ever said so. Here you're proposing for Jessie something of narrative comparability to the situation with Aerith, but advocating for its inclusion by conflating the suggestion with a gameplay option that ultimately yielded something opposite in tone.
Surely you see why going that route reads like a non sequitur.
The point is that she was a part of it, and what I'm talking about is the simple existence of a third option in the date mechanic, which she has already provided precedent for in the original. Jessie's feelings for Cloud are a part of her character, and they've been deliberately played up in Part 1 from what we've seen so far. Think about it. In the demo alone, she's much more flirtatious both in intensity and frequency than in the OG, and it wasn't even the entire reactor mission. If they've increased it this much in just this small part of the game, how much more of it are we bound to see across the rest of the game, if the demo is any indication?
I doubt they'll leave her feelings unaddressed as they did in the OG, given what they've done with them so far. And having her as a third option in the affection mechanic would be one way to address that, even if it's a more serious tone than how they did Yuffie in the original. And that's what I'm saying. Including her as a third option doesn't have to be comedic like Yuffie was. Still optional, but fleshed out and more serious.
Jai, what you described right there for Cloud and Jessie is literally the circumstances that apply to he and Aerith. There is no active involvement between Cloud and anyone prior to Aerith's death, nor could there have been. That is very much part of the tragedy of it.
And that applies no matter how one played the game. Regardless of player choice, all roads ended in a mystery where Aerith and Cloud are concerned.
That was the OG. The remake doesn't necessarily have to follow the same path. Cloud and Aerith could be beginning to be involved by the time of her loss (possibly depending, again, on player choice). The reason the OG had no active involvement is because it was meant to be up to player choice and interpretation. So there's still room for his romantic potentials with Jessie and Aerith to play out differently in the remake. Again, it's all in the implementation, the how.
That is far more coherent, insightful and mature than any sentiment Cloud has ever been shown expressing about romance -- whether in the original game or the Compilation, during his fractured mental state or after.
For that matter, he didn't even know he was messed up while he was messed up. He very well can't express that he needs to get himself sorted out when his psychosis blocks him from recognizing the very reality that he has one. =P
I've said this before, but there's an attitude that some people seem to have about certain characters and their development, that they're fine with them getting more but only within certain very limited parameters
Without seeing SE's game script or internal documents, we don't know any of this about Jessie. The remake isn't the OG, so maybe she wants something from Cloud this time around?Something else about Jessie that you might not remember is that unlike Tifa and Aerith, she doesn't really want anything from Cloud. She doesn't twist his arm into staying with a childhood promise or see flashes of an old boyfriend in him. She's just there and simply wants to be with him. She's actually the first of the girls we see do something nice for him, and without expecting anything in return - giving him a materia, showing him the train route and making him a special ID. Sure the ID didn't work out so well, but all she wanted was to help him and make him happy and notice her even a little. While Aerith and Tifa have other reasons for what they do that they can't even tell him.
Tetsuya Nomura
In the scene where they parachute into Midgar. You wanted everyone to die there!
Yoshinori Kitase
Really? Wait, I’m starting to remember …
Tetsuya Nomura
Yeah, remember? You and [writer Kazushige] Nojima-san were all excited about this. I was the one who said ‘No way!’ and stopped you guys. You wanted to kill everyone except the final three characters the player chose for the endgame.
[…]
The theme of Final Fantasy VII was ‘life,’ and we sacrificed Aerith in order to give weight and depth to that theme. Her death is a tragedy but, if we suddenly just killed off everyone else after that, it would dilute the meaning of her death.
[…]
When a character in a video game dies, no one thinks it’s that sad. They’re just characters in a game, after all — you can just reset the game and try again, or you can always revive them somehow. I felt that their lives just didn’t have much weight. With “life” as our theme for FF7, I thought we should try depicting a character who really dies for good, who can’t come back. For that death to resonate, it needed to be an important character. So we thought killing off the heroine would allow players to think more deeply about that theme.
I know the Remake isn't the OG, but nobody wants a new story with a new character arc for Cloud. The whole point about Cloud in the first part of the OG is that he doesn't seem to have any idea there is anything off about him; it's everybody else who notices. As far as he's concerned, he's a smooth-talking hard-living ex-SOLDIER 1st class mercenary. He doesn't remember anything between attacking Sephiroth in the Jenova chamber at the Nibelheim reactor and working for Avalanche in Midgar. I'm not even sure he remembers meeting Tifa at the train station. As I keep saying, he has very few authentic emotions, and almost none that he is conscious of. The first time he shows real concern for another human being is when he decides they must urgently rescue Aerith from Shinra. (I'm not saying this is because he doesn't care about Tifa; it's because he's such a fragmented human being).
If he wasn't like this, he wouldn't be Cloud, and then the Remake would be about some another, new character, also called Cloud, that nobody really cares about.
While there are others of us that appear to have a fixation on a certain character...
Without seeing SE's game script or internal documents, we don't know any of this about Jessie. The remake isn't the OG, so maybe she wants something from Cloud this time around?
And story content being optional does not make it exempt from criticism. To use a radical example, if they add the ability to revive Aerith--even if it's optional!--I'm going to moan and complain about that until I'm senile.
This is from Final Fantasy 7: An Oral History, a relatively recent article with insightful interviews on the genesis of the original game. To me, having Jesse fill a very similar role as Aeris would be a bad idea not just because Cloud's love life is enough complicated as it is. There's a real risk that pushing that angle would dilute the meaning of Aeris's death, which also happens to be one of the most influential deaths in gaming history. I don't have the remake's scripts, but I do hope that Nomura has still such a firm grasp on the legacy of the game that he personally contributed to create. He's the one who notoriously "killed" Aeris after all.
This is not about who's the best partner for Cloud. Adding even optional romantic undertones to Jesse would ultimately lead to a weaker and less impactful version of Aeris’s death, not because Jesse doesn’t “deserve” to be expanded, but because Aeris is one of the most important playable characters in the story, arguably even more important than Cloud himself. She’s the last Ancient, in certain ways she’s a better foil to Sephiroth than Cloud, everything about her screams “female protagonist who ends up with the male protagonist,” and then she just dies without even getting to say a proper goodbye. Making sure that her death resonates loud and clear like it has been doing for more than twenty years should be more important than a bonus romance option with a side character, no matter how lovely or interesting that side character might be.
Let me be blunt here, Jessie has no relevance. Nothing the devs said hinted that she will become anything more than the rest of the og avalanche gang. You're obsession with her is clouding your mind.Except that he has to have real progression in Part 1 since it's an entire, full story. So he probably won't be what you say he is nearly as long as you think. He'll likely start to change sooner. And I don't think it's ever officially made clear how much he does or doesn't remember of the time between Nibelheim and the first reactor mission, so you can't say for sure that he doesn't remember anything at all. He is human, therefore he can feel and has feelings, even if he doesn't always understand it.
I wouldn't even be keeping this discussion going if people didn't keep responding and beating down whatever I say like nothing I think has any value. That's how it feels when you all gang up on me like that and insist that only your way can ever be right and nothing else could ever possibly work because it seems like you're only looking at it in a few certain ways and not allowing that it could be done in ways you haven't even thought of.
Being optional also doesn't make it exempt from being possible, either. And while it's not the OG, they've kept pretty close to the original characterizations. So she probably still won't want anything from him. Just realize that there may be ways to carefully implement such an option that you haven't even considered or thought of.
Except that Jessie dies before Aerith, and not after, and already has several things in common with her - they're the same age, both are interested in Cloud, both are lively and energetic, both try to help him in different ways, and both have a period of forced separation from him before seeing him again just prior to their deaths, among other things. And as I already said, if the two different arcs are implemented differently enough, then there's no risk of dilution. And Aerith's loss will not come for probably another three to five years. Do you really think they're going to wait that long to hit us with a moment like that when they can do it right now in Part 1?
And you don't know that adding optional romantic undertones to Jessie would weaken the impact of Aerith's death. It's in a completely separate game that's at least several years away. And besides, as I've said before how those undertones are implemented and how far they go can be very different between the two women, and that very contrast would keep Aerith's loss from being diluted, as you say. Her death - which does not happen in Part 1 - can still resonate like you want it while still having that optional affection path available in Part 1 with Jessie. Having that available doesn't mean it has to play out the same way as Aerith's does. It can be done differently, so that each is distinct from the other and thus, wouldn't interfere with each other.
It's like people simply assume any path with Jessie, even optional - and thus, able to not be seen at all - would get in the way of Aerith without even waiting to see how it plays out first to decide or to even consider that there may be ways to implement such a thing that wouldn't hinder Aerith's arc. But SE said they want to surprise us with the remake. What better disruption and surprise than to throw a wrench into the old LTD? They probably know what people are expecting to see in regards to it, and letting Jessie into it for Part 1 would be a way to play on those expectations and completely throw them off. I think people's knowlege of the OG may limit their thinking in considering new possibilities and how they may be implemented. Just remember that there may be more ways to do things that the ways you happen to think of, so don't be so quick to dismiss an idea just because you personally haven't thought of a way it could be done.
In case Cannon's point isn't clear enough, this is another thing you're inconsistent about when discussing this topic. If someone invokes the original game, you're very quick to say that this isn't the original game -- but you show no such hesitation when saying something like "your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well."Without seeing SE's game script or internal documents, we don't know any of this about Jessie. The remake isn't the OG, so maybe she wants something from Cloud this time around?
Unless you've seen SE's game script and internal documents, you can't say anything for sure.
Yes, but he's likely to have much more than that by the end of Part 1, and as he'll have had significantly more time with the trio than in the OG, his friendships with them and their loss will likely play a part in that.
...
I understand that, but there's no reason Jessie couldn't be included in that given how much more interaction she'll have with him this time around.
...
Rog, they didn't have to show her at all, or in the situations she's in. I know there's going to be new content after platefall as well, of course there is. But it's likely that'll be pushed as late into the game as possible to maximize our time with the AVALANCHE trio.
Jairus said:But as I was saying before, they deliberately chose to show Jessie as much as they have, and they deliberately chose to create those scenes and events with her and Cloud together the way they were. They didn't have to have her with him on the bike. They could have just as easily created the scene in such a way as to give them each a bike or put Biggs behind him instead. But they didn't.
They deliberately chose to put Jessie there, in a position and situation that would fuel her attraction to Cloud. And they didn't have to have her looking at Cloud during the parachute scene, but they chose to have her do that after she looks away from Biggs. And then (in the trailer, at least), flashed to a closeup of him. And they didn't have to have her give him the materia, but again, they deliberately chose to have her do it. All of these scenes and elements as well as every other part of the game are very likely planned and storyboarded well in advance and for very specific reasons, not just what they are but how they are. Everything you see on screen in any game, movie, show, or whatever is there for a reason, decided upon long before the scenes are shot or created. Not only that, but the choice of scenes and parts of scenes used for the trailers also matters.
As I said, they chose to include Jessie in the trailers, and fairly prominently at that, even though they didn't have to. They chose to include closeups of her and Cloud together, even though they didn't have to - and they didn't even have to have closeups of them in the scene at all but could have kept the camera zoomed out on all four of them the whole time. But they didn't. They chose to focus on Cloud and Jessie in those moments, and they chose to include them in the trailers. It's not something that should just be dismissed.
Jairus said:I've said this before, but there's an attitude that some people seem to have about certain characters and their development, that they're fine with them getting more but only within certain very limited parameters, especially in terms of Jessie and her relationship with Cloud. "Sit down, shut up, and don't even think about being more than you are." But is that attitude right?
Jairus said:If a character has the opportunity to grow and expand beyond what they once were, is it right to deny them that simply because some people might be uncomfortable with certain aspects of that growth?
I wouldn't even be keeping this discussion going if people didn't keep responding and beating down whatever I say like nothing I think has any value.
Jairus said:That's how it feels when you all gang up on me like that and insist that only your way can ever be right ...
Jairus said:... and nothing else could ever possibly work because it seems like you're only looking at it in a few certain ways and not allowing that it could be done in ways you haven't even thought of.
In case Cannon's point isn't clear enough, this is another thing you're inconsistent about when discussing this topic. If someone invokes the original game, you're very quick to say that this isn't the original game -- but you show no such hesitation when saying something like "your forgetting that in the OG, Cloud could flirt back with her, and he'll likely be able to in Part 1 as well."
What's your justification that this is likely? Because of the original game and literally nothing else, yes?
You're being awfully intellectually dishonest with us, and I fear yourself as well.
Really now, let's not go there. Let's look at what you've said in just this one post I'm replying to:
One of those times you even forgot to use "likely." =P
But let's get real: you can claim that you "try very hard to avoid saying anything for certain," but when you're insisting upon "likely" as much as you are (and it's a lot -- 30 times since you began this shit show about 80 hours ago), you're effectively claiming "all but certain" -- if not "definitely certain."
Especially as you obtusely condescend to people with cringingly myopic comments like "You seem to be going only on what you think is most likely, not necessarily what is or could be."
So let's just pretend I had said --
"They're not likely going to make it into the same Venn diagram circle for him as Zack and Aerith. They likely just aren't.
He will likely be sad about their passing in much the same way he's sad about the deaths of people he knew from Nibelheim who weren't his mom, but they likely aren't going to be included in the definition of the great personal tragedy that is his life in the way Zack, Aerith, his mom, or even his hometown at large are.
That's not his story; it likely wouldn't particularly improve upon his story to pick up any additional great personal losses as motivation; and I am confident Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase are likely to recognize all of this."
And the purpose could only be what you're suggesting? Or -- let me rephrase -- it's likely to only be what you're suggesting?
There's a terrible irony here that -- while you're passing bullshit inaccurate judgments on other people -- you're acting like "being more" could only mean having a romantic entanglement with the lead character.
To anyone being reasonable, that is actually what sounds like "very limited parameters," and you come across as the only one with a predetermined agenda.
That's without even getting into your complete disregard for the points being brought to the table about how your suggestions may negatively impact other characters or the wider narrative structure.
Is it right to confine their growth to a single possible direction? =P
Dude, it is you and only you who continuously raises the topic when it's not even being discussed otherwise.
Now lose the pity party. Everyone here has some pet theory, ship, pipedream, or political opinion (shit that matters a tad more than ships) that doesn't get pulled into the warmth of everyone else's bosom.
Grow the hell up. You have one idea that people think is shit. If that's the worst you ever do, you'll be sitting pretty. Seriously, though, grow up.
So now you're resorting to outright lying about people who disagree with your one idea? That's not a good look on an adult.
It has been thought about endlessly at this point, courtesy of you. Articulate, contemplative people still disagree for many articulate reasons they have contemplated and articulated to you. This is not people having irrational knee-jerk reactions. Only you are doing that.
Yes, they've thought about it. But seemingly only within what they came up with or within the frame of reference of what they already know. I've seen no one allow for what they don't know and haven't come up with or thought of, that there might be ways or things they haven't thought of or don't know about yet that could allow it to work. I wasn't trying to have any knee-jerk reaction, and I'm sorry if I did. It's just that the more I'm disagreed with and argued with on an issue or idea that I care about, the more I dig in and try to stand my ground because of how surrounded I feel.
Except that he has to have real progression in Part 1 since it's an entire, full story. So he probably won't be what you say he is nearly as long as you think. He'll likely start to change sooner. And I don't think it's ever officially made clear how much he does or doesn't remember of the time between Nibelheim and the first reactor mission, so you can't say for sure that he doesn't remember anything at all. He is human, therefore he can feel and has feelings, even if he doesn't always understand it.
It's in a completely separate game that's at least several years away.
That makes two of us. @MelodicEnigma, I am now a big fan.I like this newcomer.
Hell, if it's an option, I'll take it too.Jairus hoping for the ObstinateMelon interpretation of Jessie's "special ID" she makes for Cloud.