The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah she's like a manifestation or some shiz Cloud and Aerith aren't and they are included in the couples montage in the credits - not the original KH one with other characters but the actual couples one in 2.856789 or whatever

Yes. There's really no other good faith reading to take of that montage.

Yes Tifa is included, they both are.

I just watched it again and only saw Aerith?

Squall sees her and speaks to her when she goes around Ansem's study looking for Cloud.

Are you one hundred percent certain of this? I feel like you may be mistaken.

Not that it really much matters to the larger points on the table.

But while Cloud may not be literally romantically tied to this "light" there is a thematic parallel which is being relayed here, especially in light of AC being used as inspiration for their characters KH2. The person closest to Cloud's heart, his literal light in the darkness that is aiding him conquering said darkness, is Tifa. That's a very telling role to have Tifa fit in.

It certainly is, but so is Aerith's -- particularly when we have an inversion of the situation in the universe of FFVII. In both realities, both women have a significant personal association with Cloud; and in both realities, one isn't (or is no longer) a normal flesh-and-blood human who belongs in the human world.

KH Tifa belongs there as much as KH Sephiroth as much as FFVII Aerith as much as FFVII Sephiroth.

 

[Strangelove]

It's also not necessary for an external bearer of one's light to be their romantic interest. It's long been understood by many fans that Sora is Riku's light, and Riku himself does specify that Sora is the light in his own heart in the novelization of KHDDD -- but short of taking an unsupportable reading of the narrative, they aren't romantically entangled.

this is homophobia, ban this man at once

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh I'm positive. Squall acknowledges Tifa there in Ansem's study. So regardless of Tifa and Sephiroth being being of light and darkness spawned from Cloud heart, they are visible and able to interact with the world.

Interesting point regarding the inverted roles Tifa and Aerith play. However even with that in mind, Aerith's role in Cloud's story as a support is far more hands-off than her role in AC. And it certainly doesn't mirror Tifa's role in AC either. Aerith shares a brief conversation with Cloud and reminds him to not get loss chasing his darkness and remember he has a place to come back to. And then the ending shows Aerith waiting for Cloud to return.

Compared to the more active role Tifa performs in Cloud's battle with Sephiroth, Aerith is a support, but more on the periphery compared to Tifa.

Which is again odd compared to the active role she played in AC along with Tifa. This could be due to time constraints or whatever but it is a difference that exists.

I'm not familiar with the couple montage in KH however. What is that from and where?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh I'm positive. Squall acknowledges Tifa there in Ansem's study.

Hm, I'm going to have to look it up. I really think you're remembering wrong. No offense. XD

Interesting point regarding the inverted roles Tifa and Aerith play. However even with that in mind, Aerith's role in Cloud's story as a support is far more hands-off than her role in AC.

And it certainly doesn't mirror Tifa's role in AC either. Aerith shares a brief conversation with Cloud and reminds him to not get loss chasing his darkness and remember he has a place to come back to. And then the ending shows Aerith waiting for Cloud to return.

She's still literally the only non-keyblade entourage human in the game to have some sort of emotionally supportive role for Cloud. And not for nothing, he shows enough concern for her to bother explaining his intentions in disappearing, as well as offers a promise to return.

To conclude this is all a one-sided irrelevance is, I think, a disservice to the characters, and not much better than arguments in ye olden days that SE's intent with Tifa in FFVII and the Compilation is that of a pathetic, clingy piner.

I'm not familiar with the couple montage in KH however. What is that from and where?

It starts around 3:30 in this:

 

[Maidenofwar]

Oh! sorry I didn't mean the montage especially for Tifa, but more of a Tifa is included in everything in general, cameos, tie ins, merc, etc, plenty of content for both

Interesting thing about those credits is they do have friends/supportive section set beforehand ?

 

[ForceStealer]

I mean sure, if you manage to ignore KH2 and Tifa being Cloud's light and all that.

In fairness, that Tifa is the manifestation of the light in that Cloud's heart, same as that Sephiroth is the manifestation of that Cloud's inner darkness -- so it's unlikely they're romantically entangled ...

In terms of the tangible narrative, yeah Tifa is Cloud's manifested light. Although how it relates to her precise existence is ambiguous because while she may be incorporeal in comparison to a person

lol. Oh, KH...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hm, I'm going to have to look it up. I really think you're remembering wrong. No offense. XD

Starting at 4:23.

What makes the scene particularly humorous is that in the Japanese script, Squall says roughly, after realizing Ansem's password is lost due to Ansem already being defeated by Sora, that trying to recover it is like "grasping at a cloud."

....Which then prompts Tifa to suddenly appear and say, "grasping a what now?"

The English script removes the pun and instead has her just casually discover them in the secret room. But I mention the scene because both Sora and Squall hear her words and turn towards her. Furthermore, Squall doesn't seem surprised at all. So clearly she's been seen before hanging around the castle.

Thats the only other person who acknowledges Tifa's presence.

She's still literally the only non-keyblade entourage human in the game to have some sort of emotionally supportive role for Cloud. And not for nothing, he shows enough concern for her to bother explaining his intentions in disappearing, as well as offers a promise to return.

To conclude this is all a one-sided irrelevance is, I think, a disservice to the characters, and not much better than arguments in ye olden days that SE's intent with Tifa in FFVII and the Compilation is that of a pathetic, clingy piner.

It's not to say Aerith's side is irrelevant, it's that she has a different role in her adjacency to Cloud here. One that's not as tied to the hip or his literal heart as Tifa's portrayal and placement in the story.

I mean, Tifa is literally given the role as a manifestation of his heart's light. A somewhat on the nose metaphor towards AC and how Tifa was Cloud's light of hope towards the future and family. Tifa, Denzel and Marlene were the happiness Cloud was afraid to be near because of his past and painful memories. And just like he ran from Tifa in KH, he ran from his family and was depressed while wallowing in the past.

Yes, Aerith clearly is the only person in Radiant Garden Cloud seems to care about and have any meaningful dialogue and deep conversation with. But Nomura made a clear metaphorical choice in Tifa's depiction here. Aerith's role has a parallel to her role in AC too, except it's not as properly executed given the brevity of the scene with no follow up. Aerith was encouraging Cloud to not give up or forget about his future and happiness. To not be saddled with guilt or obsession with the past.

Also, I think another issue is Aerith isn't dead either. Whatever past trauma or tragedy Cloud wants to get revenge on Sephiroth for in KH, is different than in VII/AC. Birth by Sleep heavily implies it could be connected to Zack. But at this rate, who knows...

It starts around 3:30 in this:

....LOL, oh wow....They totally just did that. Huh.

I mean..Yeah, you're right. They totally did throw a nod to a Cloud and Aerith pairing there in that montage placement. Square loves to tug at that heartstring and make nods to that pairing on one hand but then totally go and throw fuel on the fire for Zack/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa somewhere else.

I believe they're fully aware that some fans prefer seeing one and others prefer the other. And they make a point to tease both every so often.

 

[a_apple]

Oh! sorry I didn't mean the montage especially for Tifa, but more of a Tifa is included in everything in general, cameos, tie ins, merc, etc, plenty of content for both

Interesting thing about those credits is they do have friends/supportive section set beforehand ?

But didn't those credits also include Namine and Roxas as a couple which later turned out to be wrong? To me KH always seemed to be a attempt to give Aeris also a happy ending but Nomura being a huge Tifa fanboy just couldn't help himself and just nuked the entire FF casts subplot

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But didn't those credits also include Namine and Roxas as a couple which later turned out to be wrong?

Yeah, I suppose so since it now seems like Riku and Naminè are a thing. But at that time, Naminè and Roxas was certainly the impression (I mean, just look at that KH2 ending).

To me KH always seemed to be a attempt to give Aeris also a happy ending ...

They really should have gone ahead and leaned into it. The incomplete feeling to those subplots in KH is a lingering frustration.

But I mention the scene because both Sora and Squall hear her words and turn towards her. Furthermore, Squall doesn't seem surprised at all. So clearly she's been seen before hanging around the castle.

Thats the only other person who acknowledges Tifa's presence.

Hm, but closely looking at the blocking, you can see that Squall turns to look a second after Sora, such that he may just be following Sora's gaze. Sora also then leaves the room without conversing further with Squall.

I think this is an example of what Nomura meant when he said that he toned down the explicitness of Nojima's script in regard to Tifa so that it could still look like she might just be a random resident of Radiant Garden rather than a non-human entity.

 

[billy22]

Somewhat off-topic, but is there a precise moment when Tifa fell in love with Cloud?

They were childhood friends but didn't hang out a whole lot. Breaking it down:

a) Cloud as a 14 year old was madly in love with her for a while and calls her up to the well- a common date spot. Tifa comes along and dresses nicely. Since there is no way she isn't aware of this being a date spot, she probably knows what this is. At the very least, she had some interest in him. She thought he was cute & interesting. But love? Maybe his confidence about joining SOLDIER and becoming like Sephiroth made her fall in love here without realizing it?

b) Cloud leaves for SOLDIER and Tifa thinks about him a lot. Did she fall in love with him while he was gone?

c) Tifa meets Cloud at the train station. She's happy to see him but he's a mess. So she watches over him and convinces him to join AVALANCHE. Was it after this meeting? Feels unlikely to me.

d) They perform missions and Tifa continues watching over Cloud. At the second reactor bombing, Cloud is going to fall from the explosion and Tifa says she has "a lot of things she wants to tell him." I'm not sure if she wanted to tell him she loves him or if it's about his messed up memories? Probably both? Seems unclear to me.

e) Her date which is optional is similar. She wants to tell him things but can't get the words out. Although also unclear if it's her affections for him or his memories she wants to take about. However given the tone, I feel like at this point she knows she loves him. Perhaps I'm wrong though?

f) They go around the world on their mission to stop Seph and Shinra...maybe here? I definitely feel like it's earlier though.

g) The lifestream sequence happens. They find out Cloud's real self and that he loved her. Then the highwind scene happens.

My guess is somewhere around b - d. My instinct is b though. Are the others possibilities? Am I forgetting something obvious?

 

[Ite]

I’m actually gonna say G, although “love” is probably the most difficult to define word. Attracted to? Certainly, he’s hot and probably smells nice. Attracted to the idea? Yeah, she’s a victim of her own storytelling as much as Cloud is (albeit in a more realistic, self manipulation way rather than alien influence memory replacement way). Obsessed with? By the end of Disc 1, certainly. But I don’t think she loves him — like, the unbreakable bond — until she solves the mystery and learns who he really is. Finding that memory of him following her into Mount Nibel is a meeting of true hearts.

 

[youffie]

Agreed. It's also the culmination of her arc, the moment when she can finally put her past to rest, when she realizes that in the worst night of her life she was not alone – that someone had been looking after her the whole time, feeling her own pain, trying to save her against all the odds. And Cloud must have felt really loved too when he realized that Tifa believed in him and looked after him at his worst.

I really like that Cloud and Tifa are notoriously terrible at talking about their feelings, but will show just how much they care for each other every step of the way.

 

[billy22]

Those are all good points, thanks.

I think the thing that is making me double-take though is her thinking about him a lot while he was gone and the date. If she only found him interesting/cute, I don't know why she would be 'thinking about him a lot' while he was gone for 7 years. She recognizes him very quickly at the train station too. That is a hell of a long time for someone you only found interesting to be on your mind.

Then the date thing...I don't know. I know there's nothing concrete there. Her date is more ambiguous than Aerith's and arguably Yuffies. But the tone of the date feels romantic. It feels like more than a crush/interest at that point.

 

[youffie]

I don't think she necessarily thought about him non-stop for 7 years, but her interest was piqued that night, and over the years those thoughts and her ideas of Cloud muddled in her brain so much that she ended up believing they were really close friends as children – and of course you’d recognize a close friend even after years. Since her life turned so horrible and sour, I also like to think that this childish idea of a hero that would come to her rescue was a really comforting anchor to her life before the Nibelheim incident, which may be another reason why Cloud never left her mind completely. Bear in mind that only two years had passed since the promise when the Nibelheim incident occurred. It's not necessarily romantic up this point.

I think she was pleasantly surprised when she first met Cloud, then shocked when she heard him reopen those terrible wounds from her past, and then became genuinely fond of him while watching over him. The mild crush that she had developed for him reignited, but she was too confused by all the inconsistencies to make anything of it. Whether she realized it or not, I think that by the time she chooses to stay by his side in Mideel she’s already fallen in love with him, but only opens her heart to him completely after the Lifestream sequence.

All their interactions from the first disc including the date are fun because there’s all these layers combined. They appear as mostly romantic on a first playthrough, and they are romantic, but as you go back, it’s clear that there’s so much going on at once: it's about him and his inconsistencies, it's about her developing feelings, it's about the fact that she's never really moved on and Cloud might be her chance to deal with her past. One does not exclude the other.

 

[Vortigern]

It is hard to say exactly when her feelings for Cloud transitioned from a crush to true love but I do think it is before the Lifestream sequence. I've always found this short chat she has with the stray dog during the first visit to Mideel to be rather telling:

Tifa
What's the matter? Are you all alone?
You got lost didn't you? Separated from someone you love......? Silly thing...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

For what it's worth, I think she didn't so much realise she loved him, as realise she had already been in love with him for quite some time without knowing it (due to being so wary and deliberately divorced from her feelings).

 

[Ite]

Tifa ??

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know, right?

 

[Clement Rage]

I reckon they had a long talk sometime post AC. It's a very complicated relationship with a lot of things to unpack, lots of things that will take a long time to get through like 'are my memories real'? 'Can I afford to love someone? What if they get destroyed like everything else in my life' 'Is this love, or am I just clinging desperately to the only thing I have left' and so on.

I feel like they'll need a long time to untangle all those things and figure out how they really feel.

 

[SailorStarDust]

Notices page #

Nice.

Anyway, as much as my VII-fangirl heart these past 23 years would love something like Clerifa or the OT4 in Remake, I'll happily settle—again—for end game CloTi with Lifestream Reunion Zerith (just like OG/the Compilation, in other words).

For the narrative's sake alone and to clarify Squenix's stance so this silly mess can finally end , have Aerith Date the default option (Replays that open up dating the whole Party—Cid would be a riot!) alongside a default of Highwind Tifa High Affection. There's no need to make things so "ambiguous" these days (although the original's various choice mechanics with inserting yourself as screwed up Cloud who's finally his own man again mid-Disc 2 was brilliant, on various levels) when the numerous official supplemental materials and the Compilation gives us this same outcome countless times, you know?

 

[Nandemoyasan]

I don't understand why anyone thinks 'actual romantic feelings which make a person favor one person among all others to be their lifelong companion' aka 'true love' can be measured. It's literally something that human beings can only feel, and possibly the most powerful and least understood emotion there is.

Circumstances, anecdotes and what people happen to say don't have nearly the impact on whether a person can be shown to feel what you're deeming "in love" with another particular person as the lightness with which you're employing the phrase would suggest.

In fact, I think I'd challenge anyone to demonstrate an instance in which someone in a story can be shown to have "fallen in love" without them explicitly saying it. It can be done in media, but I'm curious what kinds of examples people might come up with.

The most cliched of all such images is two people running through a sunny meadow towards each other and meeting in an embrace while unnecessarily loud orchestra music plays in the background.

 

[rkss]

Hope SE'd just say "that's it" and push for canon coupe, whatever it is in remake.
That'd end our misery. Wishful thinking

 

[ForceStealer]

That would be dumb on their part. It's part of what has kept the game relevant all these years, unfortunately enough

 

[rkss]

I know. Part of me enjoy it, other part just laugh at me for hanging up to this debate for so long. (Self loathe e?)
I'm Cloti just because it's the only thing that makes sense, even though it's poorly written. I like Aerith's interaction with Cloud when she's alive but don't like it when they keep writing her as a Mary Sue after her death.

Well, with Japan & Square nix 's favoritism for Aerith, I expect nothing less from the remake. Just hope at least they add different layer (Not you, Advent Children) to their relationships this time .

 

[Vortigern]

I know. Part of me enjoy it, other part just laugh at me for hanging up to this debate for so long. (Self loathe e?)
I'm Cloti just because it's the only thing that makes sense, even though it's poorly written. I like Aerith's interaction with Cloud when she's alive but don't like it when they keep writing her as a Mary Sue after her death.

Well, with Japan & Square nix 's favoritism for Aerith, I expect nothing less from the remake. Just hope at least they add different layer (Not you, Advent Children) to their relationships this time .

I'm hopeful that they'll have an ending that brings a more satisfying closure to where Cloud and Tifa stand at the end of the game. From what we have seen so far, they are approaching this Remake in a much more mature and somber way while filling in gaps that were previously left to the imagination.

Spoiler

I'm also hopeful given that there is solid proof in the leaks from January that they are using material from the written Compilation novella, amongst which is, bar none, the strongest canon moment for Cloud and Tifa.

Just like you I am obviously biased in what I'm looking for but the OG always rubbed me a bit in the wrong way in how they handled their relationship after the Lifestream sequence. After both had laid bare their true thoughts and feelings, its not broached again unless you took the High Affection route for the Highwind scene and even then its an evasive fade to black that is played up for laughs and embarrassment shortly thereafter. And after that, the ending cutscenes just further muddy the waters to sway away from a definitive closure to the LTD. I dunno, I get that the budding romance isn't central to the game's plot in any way whatsoever but its just such an unsatisfying ending amidst the other plot lines being wrapped up.