The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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No, the most popular ship right now is Sephiroth/Angeal/Genesis/Cloud/Zack, sometimes with Reno thrown in for added colour.
Anyway I prefer love triangles where nobody gets what they want and they spend all their time pining and sad.
Also Tseng/Aerith. That is all.
Anyway I prefer love triangles where nobody gets what they want and they spend all their time pining and sad.
Also Tseng/Aerith. That is all.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
I will never not feel a little weirded out by a Tserith (is that a new one? Oooh I hope) pairing... In my headcanon, he's just too much older
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Yeah, it's good they both get attention. But what's interesting is that they've shown him with Jessie almost as much as with them. And on the official FF7R site's character section, no mention is made in either Aerith or Tifa's bios of their feelings for him despite the fact that it was quite blatantly laid out in the original FFVII's manual. Might not mean anything, but then again, it might. Aerith won't die in Part 1, either, but Jessie will. So this might be more her time to shine, as you put it, than the other girls, who'll have the luxury of being guaranteed parts in later installments - which won't come out for a few more years yet, in either case, which means Aerith's big moment is still quite a long way off, and I don't think SE's going to want to wait until then to hit us with something like it when they have the opportunity to do so now in Part 1 with Jessie (and of course, the plate collapse). I guess we'll find out in March, though.
Random Nobody
local roach
If you're talking about Jessie getting more attention than ever before than I agree completely. But to be honest here, Jessie has probably zero relevance in the overall story, her role won't ever get close to rival Aerith and Tifas as Clouds main harem chicks
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
We don't know that, apple. In Part 1 she's sure to have a lot of screen time, as prominently as she's been featured - as I said, almost as much as the other two - there's a good chance that she'll be a third option in Part 1. The OG never forced a canon interest, it was all in certain choices you made that determined the outcome of certain scenes, and if you chose in certain ways, neither Aerith nor Tifa would get the Gold Saucer date or better Highwind scene (in Tifa's case), leaving them both in the friend zone. There's already precedent in FFVII for the existence of a third option - in the case of the OG, Yuffie - so it's not unreasonable to assume that, with the confirmed presence of choices-dependent events in the game, that Jessie could be a third option for Part 1's love mechanic and its equivalent of the Gold Saucer date.
And what you also forget is that in Part 1, Aerith and Tifa have a built-in limit as to how far their potential love arcs can go in this first game, because they have to be stretched out for the entire time they're in the series. Jessie, however, has no such limit, as this is her only game, which gives SE the freedom to expand that part of her story and make her a third possible option for Part 1. The foundations for it are already there, in her existing and increased interest in him, the likely ability to flirt back with her just as in the OG, and the existence of choices and choices-dependent events and scenes in the game. So it may be more likely than you think.
And what you also forget is that in Part 1, Aerith and Tifa have a built-in limit as to how far their potential love arcs can go in this first game, because they have to be stretched out for the entire time they're in the series. Jessie, however, has no such limit, as this is her only game, which gives SE the freedom to expand that part of her story and make her a third possible option for Part 1. The foundations for it are already there, in her existing and increased interest in him, the likely ability to flirt back with her just as in the OG, and the existence of choices and choices-dependent events and scenes in the game. So it may be more likely than you think.
well you're right about us not knowing for 100% for sure, but Jessie having any real impact in ff7r seems so unlikely that I think you're reaching.
I'm trying to imagine how you're seeing this unfolding, Jairus, but all I can figure out is this: Cloud has romance options for Tifa, Aerith and Jessie in the first game and chooses Jessie. Jessie dies. Cloud gets over it, has romance option for Tifa, Aerith and Yuffie in the second game and chooses Aerith. Aerith dies. Cloud gets over it, falls into the Lifestream in the third game, remembers who he really is and remembers he loved Tifa all along.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Except, Lic, that depending on the choices you make over the course of the series, it's possible that you would only get the friendship version of the Highwind scene and thus, no romantic angle at all between him and Tifa. What I see is something of how the OG didn't enforce a canon pairing but basically let the player decide and interpret for themselves. And there's no reason that Part 1 can't do that as well while still including Jessie as a third option. The point is to allow the player (and thus, Cloud) to have the choice while it's still available to them, and to give them more than they were able to have in the OG. Just because he could be with Tifa at the end of the series doesn't mean that he couldn't ever have felt anything for anyone else before that. People are capable of caring in that way more than once over the course of their lives. Cloud doesn't have to be any different.
And apple, just because she's only in Part 1 doesn't mean she shouldn't be given that opportunity of being a third option for Cloud while she still can be. It's something that can affect the part of his story that happens in Part 1. His interactions with her before you even really meet the other girls (saving her twice in the reactor, potentially flirting with her on the train, etc.) are actually the first sign that he's not the selfish guy that he tries to pretend he is. So it's not so unreasonable to think that, depending on the choices the player makes, she could play a part in thawing him out just as Aerith does, since he's sure to develop friendships with her, Biggs, and Wedge by the time of the plate collapse and thus, their loss will hit him harder than in the OG and he'll likely feel it as much as Barret and Tifa. And so, apple, that means that she can have an impact on FF7R, at least Part 1.
Also, SE's deliberately put Jessie in at least one new situation that's very likely to feed her feelings about him - riding with him through a harrowing bike chase and clinging to him is bound to have that effect on her. SE could have easily created the scenes and minigame with Biggs behind him instead of Jessie, but they deliberately chose to put her with Cloud and not only that, show multiple closeups of the two of them instead of keeping the camera zoomed out on all four the whole time. They didn't have to do it that way, but they chose to. They could have also had Cloud find the Restore materia himself like in the OG, but they chose to have Jessie give it to him instead.
And it's possible they they've made his saving of her in the reactor something more dramatic than just pulling out a stuck leg. We haven't seen that yet, so there's no way to know, but it is possible. And when she's in the parachute with Biggs, after she looks away from him (she never does look him in the eye, only sideways to listen to what he's saying, and a bit abruptly at that, as if she was startled to hear him talk - notice how quickly her head moves up, like she was lost in thought), the camera shifts to bring Cloud into view, and if you follow Jessie's line of sight at that moment, you'll see she's looking right at him. SE doesn't seem to be hiding her attraction to him, and if they weren't going to do anything with it, you'd think they wouldn't have deliberately increased it the way they already have or put her in situations that would fuel it even further.
Having Jessie as a third option for Part 1 (remember, that's optional, just like the way the OG did it - it all would depend on the choices you make through the game) wouldn't hurt anything and would give her the chance to potentially have something she was denied before. It would also give those who don't care as much for Aerith and Tifa a third option for Cloud so that they wouldn't be forced into choosing between two options they may not like. Me, I like all three girls, I just want the underappreciated one to be given her chance in the sun with Cloud for once now that she has this opportunity, one that doesn't come along that often and one that she won't have again after this game.
And apple, just because she's only in Part 1 doesn't mean she shouldn't be given that opportunity of being a third option for Cloud while she still can be. It's something that can affect the part of his story that happens in Part 1. His interactions with her before you even really meet the other girls (saving her twice in the reactor, potentially flirting with her on the train, etc.) are actually the first sign that he's not the selfish guy that he tries to pretend he is. So it's not so unreasonable to think that, depending on the choices the player makes, she could play a part in thawing him out just as Aerith does, since he's sure to develop friendships with her, Biggs, and Wedge by the time of the plate collapse and thus, their loss will hit him harder than in the OG and he'll likely feel it as much as Barret and Tifa. And so, apple, that means that she can have an impact on FF7R, at least Part 1.
Also, SE's deliberately put Jessie in at least one new situation that's very likely to feed her feelings about him - riding with him through a harrowing bike chase and clinging to him is bound to have that effect on her. SE could have easily created the scenes and minigame with Biggs behind him instead of Jessie, but they deliberately chose to put her with Cloud and not only that, show multiple closeups of the two of them instead of keeping the camera zoomed out on all four the whole time. They didn't have to do it that way, but they chose to. They could have also had Cloud find the Restore materia himself like in the OG, but they chose to have Jessie give it to him instead.
And it's possible they they've made his saving of her in the reactor something more dramatic than just pulling out a stuck leg. We haven't seen that yet, so there's no way to know, but it is possible. And when she's in the parachute with Biggs, after she looks away from him (she never does look him in the eye, only sideways to listen to what he's saying, and a bit abruptly at that, as if she was startled to hear him talk - notice how quickly her head moves up, like she was lost in thought), the camera shifts to bring Cloud into view, and if you follow Jessie's line of sight at that moment, you'll see she's looking right at him. SE doesn't seem to be hiding her attraction to him, and if they weren't going to do anything with it, you'd think they wouldn't have deliberately increased it the way they already have or put her in situations that would fuel it even further.
Having Jessie as a third option for Part 1 (remember, that's optional, just like the way the OG did it - it all would depend on the choices you make through the game) wouldn't hurt anything and would give her the chance to potentially have something she was denied before. It would also give those who don't care as much for Aerith and Tifa a third option for Cloud so that they wouldn't be forced into choosing between two options they may not like. Me, I like all three girls, I just want the underappreciated one to be given her chance in the sun with Cloud for once now that she has this opportunity, one that doesn't come along that often and one that she won't have again after this game.
you're waaaaay over thinking this, Jessie Biggs and Wedge are minor characters, which means they won't get any big character development, they will be used as a tear jerker when the plate falls but not much else.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
You don't know that. I'm just going by what we've been shown. The game is going to be huge, which means that we'll have a lot of time with them. It's not going to be just the events of the original anymore, there's going to be a lot more. FF7R is going to be a lot more new content than remade, and for people to really connect to the trio, they'll have to be able to spend a lot of time with them. SE expressly said they wanted to explore who these characters are, their backgrounds and stories, so we're likely to get a lot more interaction with them than you think. Maximizing the impact of their loss requires maximizing the amount of time and character development they get prior to that, such that it'll feel like they're just as much a part of the team as the rest of the crew. FF7R is not the original, and you can't go just by how things happened in the OG because things are going to be different, more so than I think you realize.
To quote Yoda: "You must unlearn what you have learned."
And the High Aldwin: "Forget all you know, or think you know."
The original game, the remake is not. Very different will it be. Seen only a fraction of it, we have.
To quote Yoda: "You must unlearn what you have learned."
And the High Aldwin: "Forget all you know, or think you know."
The original game, the remake is not. Very different will it be. Seen only a fraction of it, we have.
Well, we do know that Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are not main characters, ergo they won't get development and interactions the same way the main cast gets. Of course you can say "we don't know that for sure!" I'm just going with what is most likely. Jessie will never get treated as a real competitor for Clouds affection. She is cursed to be a side character. Sure you probably can go and do some fun shit with her but like I said earlier, it won't have any real impact on Cloud asides from him feeling bad for Barret and Tifa for losing their home and friends while also feeling guilty for letting so many people die
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Again, you don't know that. What you know or think you know of the OG limits your thinking. Part 1 is going to be a complete adventure, and as there are only four confirmed playable characters thus far, the trio will have to have a significantly larger presence in Part 1 to make up for the smaller playable cast size and to maximize the impact of their loss. Plus, the game is going to be huge - Nomura said that it's on 2 blurays for reason - so there's plenty of room to give the trio a lot of screen time and development. You still seem to be stuck thinking in terms of the FFVII story as a whole and not Part 1 alone.
And you can't say for sure what impact spending time with Jessie and the rest of the trio will have on Cloud because you haven't seen the rest of the game, which as I said before is far more new than remade, or seen SE's scripts and storyboards on the matter to know what they're planning. He's likely to develop friendships of his own with them and begin to connect with them by the time of the pillar collapse, which is likely to be pushed as late into the game as possible for that very reason so as to maximize the impact their loss has on him as well as the player.
So you can't say that Jessie can't be a third option for Cloud in Part 1 when SE has already done something like that before, and in FFVII itself no less (just with Yuffie instead). You remember how surprised everyone was to see Jessie on the bike with Cloud in the E3 trailer? It's a pretty good bet that you can expect more such surprises in Part 1. SE said they want to surprise us with the remake and not simply do a retread of the same old thing. So it's not that much of a stretch to assume that throwing a wrench into the old LTD by way of Jessie could be such a surprise. We don't know for sure, of course, but it's not as impossible as you seem to think.
And you can't say for sure what impact spending time with Jessie and the rest of the trio will have on Cloud because you haven't seen the rest of the game, which as I said before is far more new than remade, or seen SE's scripts and storyboards on the matter to know what they're planning. He's likely to develop friendships of his own with them and begin to connect with them by the time of the pillar collapse, which is likely to be pushed as late into the game as possible for that very reason so as to maximize the impact their loss has on him as well as the player.
So you can't say that Jessie can't be a third option for Cloud in Part 1 when SE has already done something like that before, and in FFVII itself no less (just with Yuffie instead). You remember how surprised everyone was to see Jessie on the bike with Cloud in the E3 trailer? It's a pretty good bet that you can expect more such surprises in Part 1. SE said they want to surprise us with the remake and not simply do a retread of the same old thing. So it's not that much of a stretch to assume that throwing a wrench into the old LTD by way of Jessie could be such a surprise. We don't know for sure, of course, but it's not as impossible as you seem to think.
Jairus, you're staking so much on this thing of making Jessie the equal to Tifa and Aerith and Cloud being able to romance her in Part I, I'm a bit worried how you'll react if the game doesn't turn out as you hope and predict.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Well I don't expect her to really be equal, I know there's a difference, I just think that with the sheer size of the game, how they've promoted her so far, her already existing affection for Cloud (which SE has deliberately increased), the increased time he'll be likely to spend with her, the existence of choices-dependent events in the game and thus, the possibility of a Gold Saucer-type date event, and SE's own precedent for including a third option for Cloud, that it's not so farfetched that they could include Jessie in the love mechanic for Part 1 in that role. I just think, with all of that together, it's too much to just dismiss the possibility. And I don't see why people have such problems with it when, if they follow FFVII's example, she'd be just a possible option, one of three. Optional.
Meaning that if a player doesn't want Cloud to go that route, they don't have to have him do it. It's all in the choices they make, just as in the original where how you treated Aerith, Tifa, and Yuffie (and Barret) determined who Cloud went out with at the Gold Saucer and how Tifa's Highwind scene played out. I don't see what the harm is in letting Jessie take Yuffie's slot as the third option for Part 1, albeit in a less comedic fashion, or why people have such a problem with giving her at least that much. It's not like I'm saying she should be a forced interest, of course she shouldn't. None of them should. Just that, for Part 1, she could be a possible third option that can be chosen but doesn't have to be. Why do people fight something they aren't being forced to do?
In any event, it's just a game, and I'm sure I'll find lots of things to like about it regardless of how things turn out with Jessie. So don't worry about me, Lic. I'll be fine.
Meaning that if a player doesn't want Cloud to go that route, they don't have to have him do it. It's all in the choices they make, just as in the original where how you treated Aerith, Tifa, and Yuffie (and Barret) determined who Cloud went out with at the Gold Saucer and how Tifa's Highwind scene played out. I don't see what the harm is in letting Jessie take Yuffie's slot as the third option for Part 1, albeit in a less comedic fashion, or why people have such a problem with giving her at least that much. It's not like I'm saying she should be a forced interest, of course she shouldn't. None of them should. Just that, for Part 1, she could be a possible third option that can be chosen but doesn't have to be. Why do people fight something they aren't being forced to do?
In any event, it's just a game, and I'm sure I'll find lots of things to like about it regardless of how things turn out with Jessie. So don't worry about me, Lic. I'll be fine.
Like I said, I do know that she is no main character and I'm just going with what's most likely
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
And yet there is precedent, even within the world of FF7 itself, for PC's to be involved with NPC's, past or present - examples include Cid & Shera, Vincent & Lucrecia, Snow & Serah (FFXIII), Ashe & Rasler (FFXII), and Locke and Rachel (FFVI), among others. So Jessie being an NPC makes no difference in that regard. You seem to be going only on what you think is most likely, not necessarily what is or could be. There's a difference. We've only seen a very small fraction of the game, so there's a lot of room for SE to work with. Don't be so quick to dismiss it or to think only in terms of the OG. And again, my question remains unanswered. Why fight something you wouldn't be forced to do?
all these npcs were deliberately design to expand the characters they were connected to. Jessie isn't. Of course you can say again, that I don't know if the Remake won't go there for sure, but like I already told you I'm just going with what makes the most sense here. Jessie won't impact Clouds character. But maybe she will play a bigger role for Barret or Tifas arc later on
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
Well, to say she won't impact Cloud's character is a bit misleading. There's definitely a chance that the consequences of her death will affect him and his fight against Shinra/for the Planet moving forward—going with the knowledge that there is going to be expansion on character and character relationships, this isn't completely implausible. With that being said, I believe the Remake won't take it further than that in regards to the exposition surrounding his character later on in the narrative. Her death, along with everyone else, might be a driving force for him, but most likely nothing more, especially as much as romance is concerned.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
We don't know that for sure, Melodic. There's too much we haven't seen. So it doesn't make sense to say things with any amount of certainty. Unless you've seen the script and SE's internal documents, you don't know what they're going to do with it, none of us really do. It seems like you're still thinking in terms of the OG, when the remake is NOT the OG. And why is it okay for Yuffie to be a third option in the OG but not for Jessie to serve the very same role in Part 1 (just in a less comedic fashion)? What's the difference?
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
To be a bit more clear, I meant in regards to Cloud's character overall as part of the narrative moving forward, not just limited to what we experience there in Part 1 as per the "player proxy" aspect and limitations of player choice. Sorry about that. Other than that, I mean, sure? I'm sure there will be certain conversation choices and maybe certain activities/side games that can be expressed with Jessie's character in the first part, or even other characters at that (whether romantically inclined or not)—that isn't implausible either. I don't see why it would be. Observing even right now (and also knowing that this part is meant to be a FULL game), there could be a ton of different things placed in that we didn't get to experience before in our interactions with characters in the OG. If that's what you're getting, then yeah, balancing what we don't know and expectation leaves room to be had in what this game will tell. I honestly thought you were talking about how Jessie would affect Cloud in a more canonical way for his character in the narrative long-term, the way we've seen this implemented from Tifa/Aerith, not just optional interactions designated very specifically.
On that note, are we actually expecting Affection Points to be a thing again, or did they just say there are just different dialogue options that might impact certain story moments?
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Ah, sorry if I confused you. I meant Jessie being a third option for a Gold Saucer-type date event sort of thing like Yuffie was in the OG. Nomura confirmed that there are choices-dependent scenes and events in the game, so it's possible the affection points could be there. I don't recall if it was ever officially confirmed, though. But I think there's a pretty good chance of it. The OG itself never forced a canon pairing, so I don't expect the remake to do that either. It was largely left up to player choice and interpretation through the affection point system.
But even so, that still wouldn't have to stop Jessie from being able to affect Cloud at least somewhat in a more canonical way, as you put it, with the how being dependent on what the player chooses, be it just a friendship or—again, if certain choices are made—potentially the very early beginnings of a little more, or even just the acknowledgement of the possibility. What I mean by that is, there doesn't have to be anything full-on. It could just be, upon finding out how she feels, him simply realizing and telling her that while he doesn't feel ready for anything like that now (what with all the strange things going on around him and his own mental uncertainty), he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it when he does feel ready and wouldn't mind it being with her, just that he needs some time. Though as we know and they don't, that chance would never come thanks to the plate collapse, and he could come to regret putting her off—which could make him more willing to explore something with Aerith later on and not hold back as he did with Jessie. It's just one possibility I came up with, but there might be others that could work as well.
Just remember that in Part 1, Aerith and Tifa both have a limit to how far their love arcs can go. They can only go so far with him in Part 1, and no farther. I've said this before, but it seems like it's getting overlooked. It's because their arcs have to span the entire time they're in the series, while Part 1 is Jessie's only game (unfortunately). That means that, unlike Aerith and Tifa, Jessie doesn't have that limit. Which gives SE more freedom in how they develop her interactions with Cloud and how far they can potentially take them. Again, also probably dependent on player choice. Just something to keep in mind.
But even so, that still wouldn't have to stop Jessie from being able to affect Cloud at least somewhat in a more canonical way, as you put it, with the how being dependent on what the player chooses, be it just a friendship or—again, if certain choices are made—potentially the very early beginnings of a little more, or even just the acknowledgement of the possibility. What I mean by that is, there doesn't have to be anything full-on. It could just be, upon finding out how she feels, him simply realizing and telling her that while he doesn't feel ready for anything like that now (what with all the strange things going on around him and his own mental uncertainty), he wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it when he does feel ready and wouldn't mind it being with her, just that he needs some time. Though as we know and they don't, that chance would never come thanks to the plate collapse, and he could come to regret putting her off—which could make him more willing to explore something with Aerith later on and not hold back as he did with Jessie. It's just one possibility I came up with, but there might be others that could work as well.
Just remember that in Part 1, Aerith and Tifa both have a limit to how far their love arcs can go. They can only go so far with him in Part 1, and no farther. I've said this before, but it seems like it's getting overlooked. It's because their arcs have to span the entire time they're in the series, while Part 1 is Jessie's only game (unfortunately). That means that, unlike Aerith and Tifa, Jessie doesn't have that limit. Which gives SE more freedom in how they develop her interactions with Cloud and how far they can potentially take them. Again, also probably dependent on player choice. Just something to keep in mind.
I genuinely don't think so, at least in regards of Clouds motivation and development. The lost of the Avalanche gang will probably hit Barret the most, since it makes sense that he will feel responsible for their fate. The same will go for Tifa, but to a lesser extent. Everything else seem too farfetched to me. Cloud is already destined to suffer because of Aeris and Zacks death (and his mom will probably also get her far share in the remake) to add to this even more characters, just lessen their uniqueness in the overall story :p
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Except, apple, that Cloud's likely to develop at least some amount of friendship with the trio before the collapse due to the extended amount of time he's likely to spend with them. So their loss very likely will affect him much more than you think. Losing three friends, especially all at once, isn't something you can just shrug off. And Cloud's not likely to, either. It's likely to hit Tifa hard too, because you forget that she's probably known them almost as long as Barret has and so she's already developed good friendships with them.
Losing those friends is something that would fuel Cloud's desire to protect those around him and keep them from suffering a similar fate and thus, it would contribute to his overall growth and development. Especially if Jessie (since she's the last of the three he sees in the pillar) during her last exchange with him were to have him promise to keep fighting and stop Shinra (regardless of whatever possible tender angle the conversation might or might not have, depending on the player's prior choices). And a desire to keep such a promise and honor his fallen friends in that way would certainly contribute to his heroic arc, especially since we know he's a guy who keeps his word.
Losing those friends is something that would fuel Cloud's desire to protect those around him and keep them from suffering a similar fate and thus, it would contribute to his overall growth and development. Especially if Jessie (since she's the last of the three he sees in the pillar) during her last exchange with him were to have him promise to keep fighting and stop Shinra (regardless of whatever possible tender angle the conversation might or might not have, depending on the player's prior choices). And a desire to keep such a promise and honor his fallen friends in that way would certainly contribute to his heroic arc, especially since we know he's a guy who keeps his word.
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