The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Also, the story of FFVII revolves around numerous themes. One theme is a love triangle. I never said the story doesn't revolve around other themes, but that one of the themes it does revolve around is a love triangle, which is why Square has given evidence to support both sides. One side might view their evidence as stronger, but Sqaure has yet to officially say anything black or white.

Bah! I keep getting sucked back in...nooo! Must. Resist. The. Urge.

 

[Unlucky]

This distinction points out that the Highwind scene of Cloud and Tifa is an optional scene, therefore they are an optional couple. This is a distinction that was made for no other couples but Cloud and Tifa. This distinction is important and worth noting.

If Cloud and Tifa are only an optional couple, does that mean Advent Children is an optional movie? Because in that movie, they ARE a couple, whether or not they act like it. A couple undergoing a problem, that is.

Imma try to keep this short and direct to the point.

The problem here is AC, according to you, failed to convince you to see Cloud and Tifa as having a relationship. You know, just because they aren't kissing or canoodling in the flick does it mean that they are any less of a couple. First of all, they are going through a tough time, so showing them doing so would be ridiculous. Secondly, just like the original game, AC is not about romance, so even if they did work it out in the end, don't expect any mushy scenes to convince you of their status. Lastly, SE said they are a couple and nobody can argue against that. Even if they aren't showy about their feelings, hell, even if they are shown strangling each other and beating the living daylights out of one another, if SE says that they are a couple, THEY ARE.

 

[Wolfmania]

Also, the story of FFVII revolves around numerous themes. One theme is a love triangle. I never said the story doesn't revolve around other themes, but that one of the themes it does revolve around is a love triangle, which is why Square has given evidence to support both sides. One side might view their evidence as stronger, but Sqaure has yet to officially say anything black or white.

Bah! I keep getting sucked back in...nooo! Must. Resist. The. Urge.

No. Sorry, no. Please just stop. When someone says 'revolves around', It means It's a theme that keeps popping up constantly and is a vitaly important plot point to the overall plot.

The love triangle IS NOT. IN ANY WAY. A VITAL PLOT POINT.

Cloud's illusion and the puppet persona? Sure. Shitty Love triangle projection? No.

 

[JayM]

A love triangle is not a theme. It's a plot device. It's a gimmick. It's a means of keeping people talking about a video game fifteen years after it was released.

FWIW though, I think this proves the point I tried to make earlier: we're experiencing different compilations, here.

Also, I know we've sort of moved past this and are now addressing BlankBeat's most recent posts, but I am seriously skeeved by how badly that Clerith tumblr analysis paints Tifa. If anyone in this thread mischaracterized Aeris so badly, it would (RIGHTLY) be called bashing. It's fine if you prefer Aeris. It's fine if you prefer the Clerith pairing. Heck, hate Tifa if you want, just hate her for things she actually does, or personality traits she actually exhibits.

Insert rant here about fandom misogyny etc etc no1curr.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

i just dislike the fact people call the highwind scene optional. it seems like weird phrasing. it is optional to find out garnet's name and junk in madain sari. it is not optional to go through a low affection or high affection highwind scene if you want to continue the game. variable, yes! optional, no!

Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on an optional scene doesn't make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square gave us on page 232 (a page number that was blatantly listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa).

but given that another quote says they live together based on their shared feelings (unlikely to have happened in the low affection scene since it was short and apathetic) and the fact that the high affection scene is one of the impressive scenes from ff7, i assume that square enix is assuming the player got the HA scene

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It's fine if you prefer Aeris. It's fine if you prefer the Clerith pairing. Heck, hate Tifa if you want, just hate her for things she actually does, or personality traits she actually exhibits.

This distinction points out that the Highwind scene of Cloud and Tifa is an optional scene, therefore they are an optional couple.

Uhm, again, I must have played a different game. The Highwind scene isn't optional. Variable, yes. And as I mentioned eons ago that variable is NOT Cloud's feelings. The Highwind scene only changes based on TIFA'S affections at the time. Now, anyone that argues Tifa doesn't want Cloud's Buster sword foreverafter is just box-o-crackers crazy. Even if you get the LA scene, it's reasonable to conclude that eventually she confides in him and he her (CoT for example) and they move on accordingly. So, no, the HW scene is not now, nor ever was optional.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

PS: Just wanted to clarify so my post makes sense. Vendel keeps saying the story doesn't revolve around a love triangle (lol) and that Square didn't make a distinction between Cloud, Tifa and the rest of the Final Fantasy couples on the romantic love page. Although they did not make a distinction on the specific page in question, they did include a distinction on page 232. Page 232 was clearly and blatantly listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa. This distinction points out that the Highwind scene of Cloud and Tifa is an optional scene, therefore they are an optional couple. This is a distinction that was made for no other couples but Cloud and Tifa. This distinction is important and worth noting.

Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on an optional scene doesn't make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square gave us on page 232 (a page number that was blatantly listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa). Just wanted to clarify I was referring to the distinction made on page 232 because Vendel didn't seem to catch that or pretended not to catch it.

No, he (and Ryu, and myself, and everyone really) caught your meaning. You don't seem to be catching anyone else's however, being as we been telling you page 232 is not a "distinction" since it does not mean what you want it to mean.

Oh, and just to make sure this gets said at least one more time, FFVII does not, repeat, does not revolve around the love triangle. It does not even revolve around romance. The romance, both the actual and the red herrings early on, are a mere facet on one jewel in an entire display case of other, more important jewels.

 

[Celes Chere]

LOVE is a theme, LOVE TRIANGLE is not a theme. There are different kinds of things that fit the theme of love in FFVII. Love for your friends, family, and lover if you so chose to believe that there is one. It's not the main focus of the game, but it is there. In my opinion.

To be honest, I find that the Lifestream scene where Tifa helps Cloud over come all of that shit, to be way more intense than the stupid HW scene everyone is going on about, lol. I believe the Ultimania says that they get to see the thoughts/feelings each other is holding. Not quite the same as mutual feels, but still... it's still a pretty damn big deal. You get to see that Cloud's mind revolves around Tifa (and other things). You get to see just how important she is to him. And none of this is optional or variable.

and ffs, when it comes to the HW scene I do not recall it ever being stated that Cloud and Tifa only share mutual feelings in the high affection version? I believe it's been said that they share feelings, but it's less obvious in the other version. No matter which version it is, they still share their feelings. They still spend their believed to be last moments together.
^correct me if I'm wrong on that of course. :'D

edit: Here's the quote about the Lifestream I was thinking of:

Quote: text near the screenshot of Cloud and Tifa remembering the promise on the well
She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings each other were holding.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

No, you're right. I've been pointing that out for ages, along with many others.
It's just a less ...emotional scene, for lack of a better word rn. You can pretty much tell by Tifa's reaction the next morning: "You were watching?" vs "you were listening?"

The idea that the gang would tease them for talking about what great buddies they are and that Tifa would be embarrassed because of that is just fucking nonsensical.

 

[Blade]

A love triangle is not a theme. It's a plot device. It's a gimmick. It's a means of keeping people talking about a video game fifteen years after it was released.

Quoted for truth...especially in this case.

 

[Celes Chere]

the pivotal points that I think might irk Cleriths, and maybe that's because they don't fully understand 'love', or at least the love portrayed by FFVII.

This... bothers me. It's kind of a stretch to say that Clerith fans don't understand love because of the LTD. Do you realize that's like... really insulting? I think that all of us understand what love is, it's just that we have different views on it. Love isn't a simple term - it's like hate, it's very powerful and people see it very different ways. It doesn't mean they don't understand.

 

[Roger]

This distinction points out that the Highwind scene of Cloud and Tifa is an optional scene, therefore they are an optional couple. This is a distinction that was made for no other couples but Cloud and Tifa. This distinction is important and worth noting.

Again, there's not a lot that the high affection scene does that the low affection scene doesn't do anyway.

And Cloti doesn't fall or stand solely with that scene. Cloud still endures half a decade of bullying so she doesn't have to find about what she did following her mother's death, he still hid his face cause he failed to do what he felt he needed to impress her, then invented an all new Cloud for the same reason, and afterwards, moved in with her permanently, and was initially happy and confident he'd be okay cause he was now with her in a different way then before.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

This is one of the pivotal points that I think might irk Cleriths, and maybe that's because they don't fully understand 'love', or at least the love portrayed by FFVII.

SHIPPING

IF YOU SHIP THE WRONG THINGS YOU DONT UNDERSTAND LOVE

 

[Marle]

I think it's unfair to say all people who ship a fictional pairing think like that. That person from tumblr was the only individual I was aiming everything at. She made it sound like couples can't have problems otherwise omg incompatible! Or like, people who love one another never hurt each other. Fairytale romances are nice, but unrealistic. And also, Cloud and Aerith would also have issues. Not because it's Aerith's fault but because Cloud is just baggage. Hell, it doesn't matter who you pair CLoud with, there will be problems because he just has issues period. Every relationship is work.

Also, in defense of the clerith pairing, I think something that the fans of it like so much is that it involves symbolism and interpretation rather than cold, hard facts. I myself find those things interesting. They don't make anything canon or official or prove love and whatnot. But it's fun to discuss and notice anyways.

I can understand it. I always loved CloTi, but how it was handled in the compilation turned me off of it tbh. I much preferred it when it was the OG, where their dialogues and conversations had so much profound meaning and beauty. I still like them and ship them but I never really needed SE to confirm jack. The LS told me everything tbqh.

 

[Wolfmania]

This... bothers me. It's kind of a stretch to say that Clerith fans don't understand love because of the LTD. Do you realize that's like... really insulting? I think that all of us understand what love is, it's just that we have different views on it. Love isn't a simple term - it's like hate, it's very powerful and people see it very different ways. It doesn't mean they don't understand.

Sure, why not? But I did amend my statement to simply not getting what the love FFVII portrays with Cloud and Tifa is. Which, again, is still pretty accurate given what thoughts I've heard people expose about those two relationship's.

If they can't understand that sometimes relationships aren't all fun and rainbows, and that sometimes people who love each other will have huge problems, then yea. I will say they don't understand the 'love' portrayed in FFVII. That love is just, coincidentaly, very much alike the real, mature type of two people in a relationship(all opinion, of course).

 

[JayM]

For the sake of clarity, we ARE saying this only applies to certain Clerith shippers (ie the ones who argue Cloud and Tifa's relationship is SO AWFUL because they FIGHT and have ISSUES omg), correct? Not Clerith shippers in general. Just those ones.

Because in that case I think it's quite fair to say they are...naive. I read some of those posts and it makes me want to go into Personal Story Time. XD

 

[Wolfmania]

Well, yea. Obviously not all Clerith's must think like that(I don't know any that dosen't, but I'm sure they exist and I obviously have not met the entire Clerith fanbase), but I believe it's not erroneous to say some Clerith's don't understand very well what they are talking about when they say Cloud and Tifa is all about pain, and suffering and yada yada because we only see mostly their rough patches(obviously. Story is conflict, and they were trying to pull some story in AC).

 

[Fairheartstrife]

For the sake of clarity, we ARE saying this only applies to certain Clerith shippers (ie the ones who argue Cloud and Tifa's relationship is SO AWFUL because they FIGHT and have ISSUES omg), correct? Not Clerith shippers in general. Just those ones.

Because in that case I think it's quite fair to say they are...naive. I read some of those posts and it makes me want to go into Personal Story Time. XD

In my experience (and this doesn't mean EVERY Clerith fan ever) I find that most Clerith shippers like the pairing based on it's 'fantasy/fairy tale' appeal. It's the same kind of "iconic" romance as the Titanic movie of fleeting epic love combined with a bit of the twisted Twilight mentality "obsessive" and "she's sooooo speshul" which is NOT necessarily a bad thing. If that's the kind of story you prefer, then fantastic, ship your heart out because sometimes the gritty "real" romance/love story just doesn't so it for some people. And that's fine. That's preference.

It's when that preference clouds judgement to the point where it makes accepting the actual canon narrative impossible for some people that I find myself smacking palm to forehead.

So many people assume that what they ship and canon are the same thing: "Well, that's how I see it, yadda yadda blah blah you're wrong". And yes, that mentality is naive and does beg the question of maturity as well as comprehension.

Shipping is a part of ANY fandom and SE was clever in how they approached Aerith as a character. And believe me, that was intentional. Her loss was felt all the more because the player (if they chose) could form an attachment to her, and try to hook up with her (via Cloud) through Disc 1...however, that attachment is as false as Cloud's identity and it should HURT like hell when they rip that away from you. It's genius, actually, the way that plays out. But again, YOUR attachment is not CLOUD'S. In this act of ultimate OMFG WTF I have no control! SE took Aerith from the player, but also Cloud.

/semi random tangent

 

[JayM]

Well, and also, even if you assume Cloud and Tifa "got together" in FFVII or immediately after, we're talking maximum two years of actual "relationship" by Advent Children. That is NOT LONG, at ALL. If they had figured out all their issues in that time I'd be decrying the whole thing as unrealistic; the fact that both of them are very damaged people makes it even less likely, in the best of circumstances, that they'd have gotten through the most basic relationship hurdles.

 

[Celes Chere]

If they can't understand that sometimes relationships aren't all fun and rainbows, and that sometimes people who love each other will have huge problems, then yea. I will say they don't understand the 'love' portrayed in FFVII. That love is just, coincidentaly, very much alike the real, mature type of two people in a relationship(all opinion, of course).

Um... I think plenty of people can understand that, they just have a different view on it. They see it as something more damaging than that, which I disagree with of course. Doesn't mean they don't understand what love is or the 'love' portrayed in FFVII, which you just said is like irl love, you just did it in a more round about and condescending way.

If Cleriths didn't understand what 'love' is, then they wouldn't ship anything in the first place, or feel there was a connection between Cloud and Aerith in the first place. Like I said, love or... 'love' as you put it, is not black and white. Nomura even said... if Aerith and Cloud had been together, they'd have their share of problems too. Cleriths *know* this statement exists, so I'd like to assume they know that not every relationship is perfect.
And if they were perfect, that's just boring. There's little appeal in that.

Not Clerith shippers in general. Just those ones.

I see that a lot of people say that? "o not Clerith shippers in general but let me just call them all out anyway" I know I'd be irritated if people were constantly going "Haha, Clotis and their fake relationship beliefs they don't understand love at all"
Everything in that sentence IS generalizing. It is what it is. You only say it's not generalizing, because someone has called it out. It should have been stated from the get go.

 

[Unlucky]

That's the problem with the Highwind scenes, some people assume that the existence of two versions automatically means that they are the opposite of one another completely. For clarity's sake, the LA scene does not say that Cloud and Tifa 1) HATE or are disinterested with each other (because they confessed love on the other scene) or 2) decided to be ONLY friends (because they wanted to be much more on the other). Yes, those are actual arguments I've read from the other side, and they are not true, FFS. The LA scene being apathetic is a result of the lack of points you, as Cloud, failed to accumulate in order for Tifa to be comfortable enough to show that she wants your Buster Sword. It does not change the fact that she likes Cloud romantically and vice versa.

And about Cloud and Tifa not being showy and mushy all over, I think people who argue that they aren't a couple because of such reason don't necessarily mean that they don't know what love is in real life. They just expect that from a video game, where everybody looks insanely gorgeous and everything is fantasy, love must be this magical, eternal force that is never touched by mistakes or sadness or hurt whatsoever.

They don't have to have twisted ideas about love in real life to come up with such conclusions; they just have a problem with the Compilation's approach. Let's not get personal here.

 

[JayM]

Well, that's why I said "naive" rather than twisted. And it doesn't have to extend to real life at all; they could just have oddly high standards for fictional pairings.

Regarding generalizations, I don't agree with it as a general statement on all Clerith shippers; that's the only reason I posted, really, was to say that I agreed solely insomuch as we were applying it to people who use particular arguments re: CloTi. I quite like a lot of the Clerith folks and I'm aware that they're as varied as any group in any fandom. So I'm sorry if any of the stuff I've posted has come across as overly generalizing. I know that's one of the recurring problems in this debate so I'll try to be more careful about it.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

A love triangle is not a theme. It's a plot device. It's a gimmick.

/nod

blame the huge boom of dating sims in the 90s, yo. That's the reason this shit was included.

 

[Wolfmania]

Um... I think plenty of people can understand that, they just have a different view on it. They see it as something more damaging than that, which I disagree with of course. Doesn't mean they don't understand what love is or the 'love' portrayed in FFVII, which you just said is like irl love, you just did it in a more round about and condescending way.

If Cleriths didn't understand what 'love' is, then they wouldn't ship anything in the first place, or feel there was a connection between Cloud and Aerith in the first place. Like I said, love or... 'love' as you put it, is not black and white. Nomura even said... if Aerith and Cloud had been together, they'd have their share of problems too. Cleriths *know* this statement exists, so I'd like to assume they know that not every relationship is perfect.
And if they were perfect, that's just boring. There's little appeal in that.

Ok? I don't see the problem here, since the first paragraph pretty much sums up what I was saying.

Only I do think it's genuinely naive/misunderstanding of the select few people to see that as a detriment to the couple's canocity. Yea, It's their view, which I was sure to tell them is ultimately wrong to the love portrayed in FFVII, which lead me to believe they didn't understand that portrayal. Which leads me to beleive their views are wrong. Since I have seen many people imply Cloud and Tifa are non-canon as a couple because, well, they're just incompatible. Look at how their relationship is rough!

And, this speaking purely from how the methods of analyzing fiction, there's a reason for why I quoted the word love. How they understand the sentiment in their real lives is really none of my business, or how they apply It to their lives, but they are clearly mis-using it in fictional analysis when they make the above assertion. Which constitutes their view, which is wrong and based on mis-understanding regarding the creator's canon, as It's objective fact that a roughier relationship does not equal non-canocity. As that is very much how real-life relationships work.

If you're unsettled about the way I phrased that, then that's fine as well. Sorry If It offended anyone.

I see that a lot of people say that? "o not Clerith shippers in general but let me just call them all out anyway" I know I'd be irritated if people were constantly going "Haha, Clotis and their fake relationship beliefs they don't understand love at all"

Everything in that sentence IS generalizing. It is what it is. You only say it's not generalizing, because someone has called it out. It should have been stated from the get go.

To be frank, I don't see any angry Clerith's here, nor have I ever seen a Clerith angry, probably never will. Putting aside that you shouldn't really let generalizations get to you, being statistical impossibilities in this case at least, I was generalizing from my own personal experience. I most certainly do not know all the people who define themselves as 'Clerith', so I was just pointing out people I knew.

And all those people I knew definied the rocky way of Cloud/Tifa as, well, the sign of a weak relationship, which is obviously faulty considering the facts of the portrayal of love in FFVII. Everyone can have their views, but I am allowed to question them. Sorry if I should've been more clear in that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm loving this discussion. Its maturity and its honesty. This is the most interesting discussion I've seen come out of the LTD in a decade.

I don't really have anything to add to it, but there is a comment from BlankBeat I want to reply to.

PS: Just wanted to clarify so my post makes sense. Vendel keeps saying the story doesn't revolve around a love triangle (lol) and that Square didn't make a distinction between Cloud, Tifa and the rest of the Final Fantasy couples on the romantic love page. Although they did not make a distinction on the specific page in question, they did include a distinction on page 232. Page 232 was clearly and blatantly listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa. This distinction points out that the Highwind scene of Cloud and Tifa is an optional scene, therefore they are an optional couple. This is a distinction that was made for no other couples but Cloud and Tifa. This distinction is important and worth noting.

Every scene under the heading about romance has a page number for its place in its respective game's story summary. That isn't exclusive to the Highwind scene.

What you should take away from the page in question is that the associated details considered relevant to the topic of the page (romance expressed between FF characters) were included on the page. What's not on the page is as relevant to an understanding here as what is.

What's on the page: a statement that Cloud and Tifa shared a reciprocal, romantic confession.

What isn't on the page: a suggestion that the above moment may not have really happened.

One of the two versions of the scene had to occur. This page says one of them happened.

The same book that has this page lists the same version as one of FFVII's most memorable scenes. The story summary in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania for FFVII also makes explicit reference to that version taking place. The "Cloud & Tifa" entry from the CC Complete Guide uses an image from that version as its representation of the topic "Cloud & Tifa." The timeline of events in Tifa's profile in the FFVII Ultimania Omega makes explicit reference to that same version taking place. The timeline in Cloud's profile in the same book uses the same wording to describe the event. The CC Ultimania does as well, while adding that they choose to live together thereafter. Back on the "For the One I Love" page, Celes and Locke's revelation of romantic feelings in FFVI is again described with the same wording.

What is ambiguous about this? Where are the mixed messages SE is supposedly sending?

And if you can honestly say that you see ambiguity in this, I have to question how you could have ever said with a straight face that several scenes in the original game blatantly show Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. I don't disagree that he did, but there was nothing so straightforward as all this.