The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Marle]

I don't get why Cloud and Aerith need to be torn down to prove CloTi.

I mean, even if Cloud loved Aerith, even if he went on a date with her, even if they were flirting.

I fail to see how this disproves CloTi in any way?

I mean, it makes sense if there were feelings. The point was to get the player attached and quick so that when you lose her, it is completely devastating. The impact would have been more insignificant if there wasn't this budding romance between Cloud and Aerith.

Tifa's in the backseat during this time because it's in her personality. She's shy and she just can't translate her feelings the way Aerith does.

I loved her for it. I identified with her because she stood back and let it happen, despite it breaking her heart. But that's getting personal.

Anyways.

You then get that beautiful lifestream sequence where you realize that Tifa has always been in Cloud's heart and that he does love her.

That's the point of a love triangle right? There's romantic feelings attached to both sides. Cloud was interested in both women. And both women loved him.

It's really not that complicated but oh well. LTD feels.

 

[penandpaper]

Speaking for myself, I'm not trying to tear down Cloud/Aerith in an attempt to prove Cloud/Tifa or at least that hasn't been my intent and I'm sorry if it's coming off that way. I'm just trying to discuss Cloud/Aerith within the canon materials. This fandom is an interestingly one where you can genuinely believe that both pairings happen without contradicting canon. Besides, tearing down one does not under any circumstances prove the other. It never does.

I... just wanted a good discussion about canon. Is that not allowed? I'm sorry. Would it be better to swap pairings for the discussion? I'm willing to discuss either.

Maybe we should start a thread about Cloud's mental state. That's been my favorite part of the debate so far and no one would have to feel as though their favored pairing is under attack.

Still, if I offended anyone, I'm so sorry.

 

[Octo]

I think the problem is that so much of the romance business on disk 1 is down to optional player choices. I feel like Square could have done a better job with it, giving it more impact? As it stands, its only really a love triangle if the player chooses it to be, no wait. Its only a love triangle from Cloud's POV if the player chooses that. Cos as was discussed so many pages ago, love triangles can work in all sorts of different ways eg Rude/Tifa/Cloud.

Tbh I can't really remember what got us discussing all this again It's not a matter of trying to tear down C/A because as you rightly said, it doesn't really have a bearing on who Cloud loves at a later date.

But, at the same time, it does have a bearing on AC if we assume that Cloud loved Aerith, then she died, then he found love with Tifa, and then Aerith's memory/spirit has an impact on that relationship. That seems to be the C/A argument. That Cloud is pining for Aerith and AC shows he has the chance to be with her in some form.

So yeah, that's why I think there isn't enough solid evidence that Cloud would feel that strongly post-OG. Not that he didn't like/care for Aerith.

/rambling coffee addled thoughts

 

[Wolfmania]

There's, honestly, nothing wrong with discussing the canon standing of real!Cloud's feelings towards Aerith. This is not argued as something that could potentially bolster Cloti, not at all, since disproving Clerith does nothing to aid that. It's simply a canon point being discussed in tangent.

Or at least, there shouldn't be. Not in a debate where the canon is being discussed. In that scenario, people need to try and be as objective towards the source material as possible.

That source material just so happens to not show real!Cloud romantically loving Aerith, that's all. Of course, he loves her as a friend, no doubt. But there's no romantic implications between them, as far as the games and movies go.

 

[Marle]

I should have been more clear, I suppose. I was discussing Cloud and Aerith's relationship in the OG because I thought it was being argued that there was no romance between the two?

Anyways.

No one needs to apologize, I wasn't offended. I was just commenting.

I think Cloud will always miss Aerith and there will always be that element in their relationship of "What if...?" But in no way does it negate Cloud's feelings for Tifa, imo. Not in the OG, not in AC and not in any future material, either.

I honestly don't care if it's canon that Cloud loved Aerith. It doesn't bother me and I think some people see it as a threat to the pairing? Not saying anyone specifically, just in general.

I don't agree with the real!Cloud thing, though. I used to believe that Aerith only loved the Zack in Cloud, too. Before I brushed up on the compilation.

I've changed my mind because well...Aerith says she loves him. She says she loves Cloud. So, she must have gleamed enough of the real!Cloud to have known she had fallen for a different man. I mean, these are Aerith's words.

And Aerith had enough of an impact on real!Cloud to have caused him so much despair in the movie and post lifestream. So no, I don't think Aerith is just a friend to real!Cloud. I think their relationship is a lot more complicated than that. :T

 

[Wolfmania]

Expanding on that point: I'm sure Cloud loves Aerith. Not romantically, but she seems to be as dear to him as Zack, his bestest friend ever, yet obviously not on the level Cloud would put Denzel, Marlene and Tifa, his immediate family.

Their relationship is complicated, I agree. But again, where is the romance between them? Real!Cloud only seems to harbor feelings of guilt for various and projected reasons. Heck, he had lived happily with his family for quite some time before geostigma and his trip to the Forgotten City.

Isn't it more plausible to say, based on the material shown to us in the movie and the games, that Cloud feels guilty for failing to protect one of his dearest friend's life when he swore to Zack he wouldn't forget their promise? Rather than his lingering sadness because he is not with Aerith anymore(which, to me, is easily solvable by Cloud just slashing his own head off. He's already showed his will empowers his soul to resist the Lifestream's crushing current, so he could just meet up with Aerith like in the end of VII. J/k, of course. The creators would never have Cloud suicide).

Which is why, ultimately what he seeks is forgiveness, that's all he wants. To be blunt, I don't see any pining for Aerith as a 'thing' in AC/C(this is not nescessarily directed at you, Khal).

That seems to fit the canon more closely, at least in my opinion.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I don't get why Cloud and Aerith need to be torn down to prove CloTi.

To be honest, I didn't see this in the last pages. People are arguing about Cloud's psyche, his actions towards Aerith, attraction and liking to her and whether it can be used an indicator of romantic love. I didn't see posts trying to prove Cloti using anti-Clerith arguments, or if there is one, it's not by the majority.

But peace

 

[penandpaper]

Thank you.

I will admit that I suppose that I don't see what the big deal is about whether or not the pairings are actually canon. I ship pairings that are not only non-canon, but some that conflict with canon in multiple fandoms (Just from FF, I ship Kain/Rosa as well as Cecil/Rosa. I'll be the first to admit that Kain/Rosa never happens and that is defined by canon, where it is at least possible for Cloud/Aerith to happen on some level depending on how you view it.). Pairings are personal opinion and that's that. You like what you like.

Canon though is a different issue and it's generally held to a different standard. Is Cloud/Aerith impossible? No, of course not. Is it supported as happening in canon? Well, that's the discussion and I haven't so far seen enough evidence to say that it happens in canon, in my opinion anyway which is mostly irrelevant truth be told. This does not affect what anyone ships though. Canon doesn't make it an impossibility (And even if it did, would this really stop people from shipping it? I've already mentioned that I ship "impossible" pairings. Maybe that's just me.) and proving/disproving either pairing doesn't prove/disprove the other.

There is nothing wrong with shipping what you like whether it can be proven canon or not. Where does it say that canon pairings are always the best? I can think of two canon pairings off the top of my head in the Fire Emblem fandom that I dislike. They're still canon, no matter my thoughts. I tend to ship the characters with other characters because... I really dislike those pairing (Edit: And because I think those other pairings that I ship are genuinely better. I just realized how awful that read. I don't ship pairings just because I don't like the alternative. I ship them because I like them.), but this is not the topic for me to rant about that. I do that enough on Dreamwidth.

Does it matter whether Cloud/Aerith can be proven to be canon? Would it be a better pairing then or is it is what it always was?

I'm still sorry.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Does it matter whether Cloud/Aerith can be proven to be canon? Would it be a better pairing then or is it is what it always was?

Sometimes it isn't the appreciation and love of the story and characters anymore, it's about pride. Shippers from both sides spat out to each other for a very long time, it was really nasty and both sides want to win. Once the creators reveal the canon couple, it's agreed upon by most that it's the sign of victory. Once you win, you have bragging rights and an excuse to bully the losing side.

Sometimes it's love or hate for a character. Some loves Aerith, therefore Cloud's love should be for her and some Tifa fans think like this too. Some hate Tifa and feels that she does not deserve the love of Cloud, this would also apply to Aerith.

Pretty immature right?

I mean I honestly don't see anything anti-Clerith if you accept that Cloti is canon, in the same way accepting that Aerith moved on to Cloud is not anti-Zerith. The love these people had with each other had their own time and circumstances and we cannot simply argue who is loved more or less.

To me...
Zerith is a young love torn apart by tragic circumstances, leaving pain in Aerith's heart. They are reunited by death. -> Mah OTP
Clerith is a short, memorable, mysterious and bittersweet relationship that is also ended by tragedy. They are in each other's hearts.
Cloti is a love born from childhood that endured many years, hardships, guilt, depression, illness and an x number of personal issues. They live as a family, along with their kids Denzel and Marlene.

 

[Marle]

I think I'm being misunderstood but okay. I'll try again.

There is romance between Cloud and Aerith. If there wasn't, there would be no love triangle.

Yes, I agree Cloud feels guilty and responsible for her death and that he seeks forgiveness from her in AC. I don't think he's 'pining' for her. I think he misses her and he will always miss her. I also don't think that his only feelings for her are in regards to forgiveness; there's more to it, but yeah, the guilt is definitely a driving factor.

Uh, I don't think Cloud is miserable because he isn't with Aerith. I think he's miserable because he's a screw up and he can't get anything right. Here he is, trying to atone for his mistakes and be happy. And then someone he loves is dying and instead of finding a cure, he ends up contracting a deadly illness instead. And now, he's useless to everyone.

Just like how he felt when he saw Aerith die in front of him. Useless.

Like I said, I don't think he's pining for her. Only that he misses her and always will. She's engraved in his heart and therefore, will always be someone he can never forget.

To be honest, I didn't see this in the last pages. People are arguing about Cloud's psyche, his actions towards Aerith, attraction and liking to her and whether it can be used an indicator of romantic love. I didn't see posts trying to prove Cloti using anti-Clerith arguments, or if there is one, it's not by the majority.

But peace

Well, there were a few comparisons between the two. But my comment wasn't meant to target anyone specifically. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

 

[Vendel]

There is romance between Cloud and Aerith. If there wasn't, there would be no love triangle.

That's not necessarily how a love triangle works. Cloud can be (and mostly is) a passive part of the triangle.

 

[penandpaper]

Khal Drogo, your post is lovely. I approve, but because I can never seem to leave well enough alone...

There is romance between Cloud and Aerith. If there wasn't, there would be no love triangle.

This is not necessarily true if you're talking about there being mutual feelings. The quote that suggest that Cloud wavers between the two does imply that there might be something more there on his end, but the fact that there is a love triangle does not.

A love triangle can be between three characters where the central character of it does return the feelings of both of the other characters, but that's not necessary for it to be one. FFIV- Kain romantically loves Rosa, but Rosa does not romantically love Kain. She loved Cecil and Cecil alone who also loves her. This is still a love triangle, but it's one where only one of the couples reciprocates mutually.

I could give other examples, but that seems to be silly.

Before this is seen as an attack, it's not intended as one and perhaps I misunderstood you (If I did then I'm so sorry. ) I just thought that should be pointed out.

Your post is beautiful. I'm sorry.

 

[Wolfmania]

There is romance between Cloud and Aerith. If there wasn't, there would be no love triangle.

Alright, I see where you're coming from, but just where exactly is it? Saying that there is a love triangle isn't much of an example to be honest, as fan's projections can really range out to eternity if given the illusion of ambiguity. Hey, happened to Cloud didn't it?

I don't dispute that fake!Cloud was attracted to Aerith and was protective of her, but where specifically do we see the romance between the real Cloud Strife and Aerith in the game and/or movie?

I also don't think that his only feelings for her are in regards to forgiveness; there's more to it, but yeah, the guilt is definitely a driving factor.

That's fine, but wanting forgiveness is all the story shows real!Cloud wanting from Aerith, if you know what I mean.

I do agree that guilt was caused in part by his likeness of Aerith's person(added to his promise to Zack, to his desire to be a hero, to his fake persona's promise to Aerith, etc...) but as I said, she's as dear to him as Zack was so...I'm not surprised there.

I still don't see the romance in their relationship, however.

Like I said, I don't think he's pining for her.

Apologies for writting what you didn't write then, but I also did amend that it was not nescessarily directed to you.

Only that he misses her and always will. She's engraved in his heart and therefore, will always be someone he can never forget.

Yea, that's completely, 100% agreeable. She's as precious to him as Zack, was stated to be dear to him numerous times and was even in the top 5 people Cloud imagined before being killed.

But again, that does not nescessarily spell us romance just because Aerith is a pretty attractive chick both physicaly and mentaly. We need some sort of confirmation that Cloud reciprocates to some degree Aerith's romantic feelings towards him.

 

[Zee]

hm you know if they officially recognize the park scene as a date, and then cloud and aeris' date scene is the most plot relevant (the "right" date, for lack of a better word) and then you have that line on the ship about taking aeris on an airship....

that gives the impression that cloud and aeris are starting to date and there is at least the possibility of continuing to date

also i never thought cloud purposely changed "i....we" for any other reason than he was nervous and getting too attached

imo cloud's asshole routine is largely to cover up that he gets attached to people easily. yeah he makes barret give up more of his share but only because he'd actually like to stay and help tifa because he doesn't want to ditch her. he fulfills his contract with aeris but then throws himself headfirst into shinra headquarters like a crazy motherfucker because he actually does care about her beyond getting to tap that sweet ass

and he gets so attached to zack that he engraves aspects of him into his persona

cloud gets attached easily and fast that's how he is
he's shy and he likes people and he wants people to like him back. it's how he's been since he was a kid and that never really changed

 

[Vendel]

hm you know if they officially recognize the park scene as a date, and then cloud and aeris' date scene is the most plot relevant (the "right" date, for lack of a better word) and then you have that line on the ship about taking aeris on an airship....

that gives the impression that cloud and aeris are starting to date and there is at least the possibility of continuing to date

Well one would think that "Cloud and Aerith are dating at the beginning of the game" would be worth mentioning somewhere.

 

[Marle]

If you take into account everything Zee said, I find it very difficult to argue that everything between them was not romantic or is platonic. Ultimanias or no, it's sort of obvious there are feelings there.

Like Octo said, there are different kinds of love triangles. Kain -> Rosa -> Cecil is different from Aerith<->Cloud<->Tifa. Cloud wavers between both ladies in THIS love triangle. Rosa does not waver between Cecil and Kain. It was always Cecil.

I don't think it was fake!Cloud. There was ZaCloud and Cloud. ZaCloud was basically Cloud with Zack's dreams and achievements. Not his personality, really. Aerith saw through it and the word of God says she loved him. If she loved the real!Cloud, why is it impossible that the real!Cloud had some romantic inclination for Aerith?

 

[Octo]

re: the Airship thing, IIRC that was an optional dialogue choice.

 

[Vendel]

If you take into account everything Zee said, I find it very difficult to argue that everything between them was not romantic or is platonic. Ultimanias or no, it's sort of obvious there are feelings there.

Look I know that Zee really wants to believe that Cloud and Aerith actually fell in love (and were even dating apparently). But there just isn't anything in universe (said by Cloud) or out (in those Ultimania you seem ready to dismiss) to support that.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Well, I speak for myself, but I don't care if Cloud liked Aerith or not. I am discussing them within the given canon and I disagree with certain readings because I find them unsupported in some way, either ulti or script (mostly script) or whatever.

It's not an attempt to tear down Cleris because Cloti is canon and needs no such bsing. So it's not necessarily that it's any skin off my back if people want to interpret it as such, I just disagree, I'm giving reasons why and basically participating in a discussion.

Just because I'm opposing a reading that in the end may be quite insignificant when it comes to C/T's canon status as a couple, it doesn't mean I'm trying to actively tear down anything w/ any malicious intent.

LOL C+A were dating now. We learn something new every day. Cloud and Aeris were gettign romantic and dating and shit....and Cloud was still unaware of any feelings for him. Ja, excuse me if I jump off the bullshit train.

and then cloud and aeris' date scene is the most plot relevant

it's only the most plot relevant if you consider it a response to Aeris' original date payment plan. If not, then no.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Look I know that Zee really wants to believe that Cloud and Aerith actually fell in love (and were even dating apparently). But there just isn't anything in universe (said by Cloud) or out (in those Ultimania you seem ready to dismiss) to support that.

um didn't she specifically say that they weren't in love but that there was supposed to be a romantic spark that made up a lot of their early relationship

 

[Wolfmania]

I find it very difficult to argue that everything between them was not romantic or is platonic. Ultimanias or no, it's sort of obvious there are feelings there.

Erm, are you taking about fake!Cloud or real!Cloud?

And there still needs to be some showing of evidence for real!Cloud, that he reciprocates those feelings, somehow. You can't just take what we presume to be fake!Clouds through feelings and shove them down real!Cloud's throat as if he'll react the same way to the same experiences and feelings.

Cloud wavers between both ladies in THIS love triangle.

Of course. He wavers between them when Aerith is alive, there's no doubt about it.

However, again, we need to remind eveyone that is fake!Cloud's wavering, an entierly different persona. After the Lifestream sequence, there's a reason the options are gone and the wavering is gone as well. Cloud's mind is fractured no more, this is a man with convictions, and an unbendable will.

ZaCloud was basically Cloud with Zack's dreams and achievements. Not his personality, really.

Ok, that's just incorrect. As Ryu pointed out pages before, fake!Cloud(the one I assume you are talking about) is a mixture of far more than just Zack/Cloud. It's a mixture of multiple influences to the personality including Tifa, Jenova/Sephiroth, and possibly even other individual random people through mind-reading. heck, It's an illusion for a reason. He was living in an illusory world, as a puppet who was not himself. he couldn't continue living on pretending to be someone he was not.

'People tell me that my personality is divided. I don't think so, but maybe it is.'

'The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm going to live my life without pretending.'

Moreover, yes, fake!Cloud is absolutely a different actor and personality from Cloud. No doubts about that, the canon makes that crystal clear.
It's not just Cloud with Zack's dreams and acheivements, he moves like Zack at times. At times he paraphrases Zack, he even fights like him. Why do you think Cloud has a sudden personality shift after the Lifestream where is himd is restored? It's obviously because his personality was lost behind the puppet!persona.

Even then, Zack was just another part of fake!Cloud's persona, It really is a jumbled mess of influences.

I mean, I'm really sorry to say this, but we just can't cheapen the loss of Cloud's identity by saying he didn't lose his perosnality, when he did. Cloud's character is all about that. It's the core of his characterization.

I think that's the main problem sometimes. I feel people might be underplaying just how lost Cloud was.

If she loved the real!Cloud, why is it impossible that the real!Cloud had some romantic inclination for Aerith?

It's definitely not impossible, it's just never been proven empirically or explicitly evidentiated in the material.

Peace~

 

[Marle]

OWD, that wasn't aimed at you. And also, I did apologize if I misunderstood, so.

@Wolfmania

Cheapening his character? Woah. I don't think I'm cheapening his character when I say that Aerith loved the real Cloud. I don't think I'm cheapening his character when I say that elements and aspects of the real Cloud still showed in disc one, despite everything. It's more complicated than him just being 'fake' or 'real'.

Cloud is still there. He's in there, he's just muddled and confused and can't tell his memories apart. Cloud still shows through at times, despite all the Zack traits he takes. He's still insecure, he's still socially awkward, he's cold and distant. Zack was none of those things.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

There is romance between Cloud and Aerith. If there wasn't, there would be no love triangle.

No.
Kain/Rose/Cecil
Bend it Like Beckham (cause I recently watched it)

And even if you don't want to use Kain/Rosa, there's a million other ones in any given medium.
The only thing that is obvious is the giant red herring.

ZaCloud was basically Cloud with Zack's dreams and achievements. Not his personality, really.

Absolutely not.

Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud&#8217;s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth.

After it is revealed that he was never in SOLDIER, and he begins to act like himself,

He strikes up a friendship with Zack, a SOLDIER 1st Class; what influence will he have on Cloud, that would lead to Cloud imitating Zack&#8217;s personality&#8230;

Cloud mimics his best friend Zack and creates a new persona, but the mental aspects weren&#8217;t the only things he received from Zack.

I could go on, but it doesn't seem necessary. btw, this is just from the character profiles & there's a lot more. They're all on the site btw, view them at your leisure. The translators here worked their asses off.

It baffles me that people see Cloud's behavior at the start and yet don't believe Cloud is being cocky and coy and not serious in the beginning when he meets Aeris, when we knwo what the real Cloud is around women. How awkward he is. You think Cloud goes around exchanging his services for dates when he likes women? That he cracks jokes (an instance SE thinks is worthy of pointing our as NOT genuine)? No.

 

[Celes Chere]

I hope that you don't mind my commenting on your post and if you do then I apologize.

Of course I don't mind. XD

I actually don't disagree with you for the most part, but this part bothers me. You call it a condition, but is it really a condition or was it suggested payment on Aerith's part? If he becomes her bodyguard is he required to go on a date with her or is it a possible option? So, he's not allowed to help her if he doesn't want the date because that means he has to go along with it? That... is definitely not how I read it, but I could be wrong.

No, I didn't mean it that way. Maybe I should have worded it better? It just seems to me like he accepted the date because he never told her no. He went along with being her body guard, and never said anything against the date when she brought it up again. If you'll recall Aerith says "The agreement was one date, right?" and then Tifa goes "Excuse ME?"
Cloud never says anything in response one way or another, but I gathered that the fact he was being her body guard without protest kinda meant he didn't mind the 'date as payment' thing. Idk, that's just how I see it. I'd think if someone asks you on a date and you weren't interested, you would show some disinterest. Some can argue that the disinterest appears to be that he is more into Tifa. Him accepting her offer for a date doesn't really change anything in my opinion so either way, I still believe that Cloud loves tifa, lol.

I see where you're coming from though. Of course Cloud always has the option, but I did not see him refusing her. So yeah. xD To me him saying "I'm your body guard, right?" when he knows what Aerith thinks about the matter basically tells me he knows what's going down with the whole date thing.

also i am the only one that believes Aerith still loves Zack, mind you. *is hit with rocks* shut up tiff no one believes that

also i never thought cloud purposely changed "i....we" for any other reason than he was nervous and getting too attached

I call bullshit on "lol Cloud's a social retard". I think Cloud genuinely was showing he cared for Aerith - caught himself, and then changed it to "we". maybe I'm the only one who thinks that lol

Can we stop with this fake!Cloud real!Cloud shizz? Cloud is Cloud. Even if his mind was torn into pieces, it doesn't make him fake. He's still himself, he's just confused.
(^basically what ava said xD)

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Can we stop with this fake!Cloud real!Cloud shizz? Cloud is Cloud. Even if his mind was torn into pieces, it doesn't make him fake. He's still himself, he's just confused.

See above. Take it up with Square. Cloud did not just suffer from temporary amnesia. I find this reduction to be a huge disservice to his entire fucking arc (in addition to being completely unsupported and in direct contradiction with canon material, script etc.).