The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[TotoroTori]

Well...

In FFX, Rikku is first seen rather than Yuna...
In Crisis Core it's Yuffie...
In Star Wars, Leia is the first woman (or the only one) seen yet Han gets her
In Gundam Seed, you don't see Lacus Clyne until after a few episodes

I don't think we should take that seriously

I don't think so either and another one was that how they were seen together in official stuff as well as merchandise. That they are always side by side. I am rusty on the argument point about this I think I need an example on what I mean

 

[I Am Not Me]

@ Meibito

Okay I'll give her the whole sentence but I'll change the names. As for koibito, I think there is too much info on that already but let us see. Because no matter how koibito is two-sided or not, the fact remains that in COLW it was from Aerith's perspective when the RF line for Tifa is a statement of SE.

Naw, naw, I mean the whole koi_________bito nonsense. They have this argument about Tifa's koibito description that it actually means "nice person" or something and that it should be read as koi (space) bito. Of course, they had to retract that statement when CoLW came out, but some kept on arguing the first one anyway, which is a double standard. And retarded.

Just curious how she'd react at this blatant disrespect of the Japanese language.

Edit: And yes, it's a good idea to switch the names to avoid the typical "omgbiased!!!11" nitpick.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

But if you change the names, she'll get it wrong. Everyone knows words have totally different meanings when applied to Aerith

 

[I Am Not Me]

But if you change the names, she'll get it wrong. Everyone knows words have totally different meanings when applied to Aerith

You should just change the name to Aerith, just to be super-safe.

 

[Vendel]

Ven, you still having trouble with the logistics of Denzel being CxA's kid? But hold on, Tifa is identified as the mother of the family at 7th Heaven, so that would make Cloud the fa -- no, wait, wait, Tifa is Denzel's new mother, yes, but if she's the mother figure, that must make Cloud the big brother and another son to Tifa, who is younger than him, but that doesn't matter, 'cause Barret is older than Cloud and *he* is the actual father figure -- okay, right, so Barret doesn't live there, but it is his place, like one of those Mexican fathers who goes to the U.S. as a migrant worker and sends money home -- okay, sure, Case of Barret says that it's Cloud and Tifa's home, and specifically excludes Barret from sharing ownership, but Tifa worries that Cloud may not be in love with her, so they must not be the parents -- right, yes, she's started looking at him as a son even though she still wants him to be in love with her -- now, hold on, what do you mean only Marlene, Denzel and Tifa are identified as Cloud's family, while Barret is grouped in with his nakama? And what's this you're saying about Denzel looking at Cloud and Tifa as his parents?

You know what, they're just a family of friends at 7th Heaven, and all the members of AVALANCHE are included. Especially the ones who don't live there.

Really, man, what's so hard to understand about this?

You're right, how silly of me. It's so simple.

And while you're trying to figure that out, here I am more than three years later still waiting to find out exactly what sins exactly Marlene is supposed to share with the members of AVALANCHE, the family of friends who live at 7th Heaven -- even though most of them don't.

I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand that the "family of friends" that Tifa had needed to get by is different from the "real family" she is working so hard for and worrying so much about in edge?

Why is it so important for Tifa that her Cloud, Marlene and later Denzel be a real family if this is just another extension of her support group?

In fact that whole scene is showing the difference between the two families. As Barret is leaving to settle his past Marlene announces that she is now a child of C/T's family.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

The mention of family combined with Barret leaving because of his sins causes Tifa to think about her previous "family". She is brought out of it by Marlene.

“A family.” (Tifa)

“Yeah.” (Marlene)

Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.

“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)

“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)

After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she whould stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

(btw that is a direct C/P from the translation on the site. So someone needs to go and fix "whould")

In fact just look at how many times family comes up in Cot.

It seemed a few people came to help Cloud complete the modifications. Marlene and her young neighborhood friends watched. The scene reassured Tifa that they were really becoming a family in the world.
.......
After Cloud started his delivery service, their “family” life changed greatly
.......
It didn’t go well. But we were together. It was because we were family. We lived in the same house and we were living by uniting our strength. Maybe there wasn’t much conversation or many smiles, but we were family, Tifa thought to herself.
......
Then, the most important point for Tifa was that there was a rumor that Geostigma was transmittable. It could infect someone in the family.
......
Tifa discussed with Cloud and Marlene about how she wanted to welcome Denzel into their family.
......
She was troubled at why Denzel shared that with Cloud yet didn’t share it with her. One day, she tried asking a customer that was about the same age as Denzel about it. His answer was that boys were just like that. So there really wasn’t any problem. They were just a normal family.

The answer didn’t make her understand but, the words “normal family” relieved Tifa.

After the bar was closed, the usual three people sat around the table. It wouldn’t be a surprise if someone said it was a young father with his two children. If I felt like it, I could go over to that table and be welcomed with smiles.
.......
When she added in more detail, Denzel would ask Cloud if it was true. It annoyed Tifa a little, but she also thought it was all right. That’s probably what normal families were like.

Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.

Compare that to.

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.

How is that even remotely the same fucking thing?
(btw "supressed" needs to be fixed as well)



As an aside I found this to be interesting.

It wasn’t too good. Besides morning and late night, Cloud was usually not at home. And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together. Tifa closed the bar for a day during the week, but it didn’t stop Cloud from doing his job. Cloud wasn’t likely to turn down requests. I just wanted us to be able to take a day off together now and then but, I suppressed that selfishness in me.

Tifa thought it would be selfish to ask Cloud to take a day off. After AC/C it's Cloud that is asking Tifa to Close the bar.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I named the guy bob but my gosh she found out what I was talking about and answered:

gomen, my friends are asking about this. Here's the whole sentence: ボブの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、ボブと想いを通わせる
It's Bob and Ana, so how would you translate the whole sentence?
sorry, don't reply if you're isogashi

don’t worry! ok lang
飛空艇…
tapos, this is the story of the video game “Final Fantasy”, di ba~??
Bob proposed to break up, so we did(or would do?) temporarily.
But we(Bob and Ana) stay in the 飛空艇 and make love.
siguro, like this

make love...

MAKE LOVE!?

O_O

Well... I think she isn't just used to expressing herself in English but that seriously blew my mind XD Now I told her the characters are Cloud and Tifa and let's see how she would react.

​

 

[Ryushikaze]

And while you're trying to figure that out, here I am more than three years later still waiting to find out exactly what sins exactly Marlene is supposed to share with the members of AVALANCHE, the family of friends who live at 7th Heaven -- even though most of them don't.

She's done some horrible things in her day. Within that tiny frame lies a true predator, one that must feed upon the blood of the living to sustain itself.

yeah that is what was said about Sora who is in Kingdom Hearts.

And now I suddenly remember a post about Cloud and Aerith having spirit sex in the lifestream from several years ago

Just a post? Why not an entire fanfic?

I would volunteer to be the temporary Clerith, but I think you'll all just see my posts as sarcastic and/or ridiculous.

Plus, Father Ryu and Uncle Vendel are scary, rabid Clotis.

Come now, I'm not scary. I'm terrifying.

Right sorry...

Anyways another argument I saw is based off the concept of "First girl that is seen" that since Aerith is the first girl seen that makes her the main love interest as seen with several traditions that the first person the main character see's is who they fall in love with

In that case, Tifa still wins, because he saw her before the game began.
There's also the 'Victorious childhood friend' trope and the counterpart trope where the childhood friend doesn't win.
Put another way, EVERYTHING is a trope now, and tropes do not hold automatic narrative validity, especially when you can quote a trope to counter a trope.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

She's done some horrible things in her day. Within that tiny frame lies a true predator, one that must feed upon the blood of the living to sustain itself.

That makes Marlene sound a thousand times more badass.

Just a post? Why not an entire fanfic?

Why not an unhealthy percentage of FFVII fic period?

Come now, I'm not scary. I'm terrifying.

Only the true Cleriths need fear you.

In that case, Tifa still wins, because he saw her before the game began.
There's also the 'Victorious childhood friend' trope and the counterpart trope where the childhood friend doesn't win.
Put another way, EVERYTHING is a trope now, and tropes do not hold automatic narrative validity, especially when you can quote a trope to counter a trope.

Just remember, Tropes Are Not Bad. Even if there are a lot of them.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I don't know what to make of the notion that Tifa doesn't love the real Cloud because of the following.

1. She didn't even notice Cloud in Nibelheim when she was 7-12 years old when Aerith at 22 years old noticed Cloud at first sight
2. Tifa only because interested in Cloud when he said he'll be someone famous even if he himself never had the courage to talk to her when they were kids when Aerith loves him for he is
3. Tifa strong-armed Cloud to make a promise for her when she was 13 when Aerith at 22 years old apparently didn't strong-arm him into doing anything for her
4. Tifa only pursued Cloud when a love rival, Aerith, arrived and had a chance of winning against her

"Therefore, Tifa doesn't love Cloud but is selfish and took him for granted."

The blackened parts are what's always omitted. Sorry for phoenix downing this thread, I need to vent steam.

Aerith did not have a chance of winning against Tifa. I can name at least three reasons why.
1. Boobies
2. Cloud apparently isn't interested in dating older women. Aerith is over a year older than Cloud.
3. No matter which version of the Highwind scene you get, Cloud's heart calls out to Tifa in the lifestream, and not Aerith. It's also important to note that this was before, albeit not long before, Cloud was restored to the real Cloud. Even Illusory Cloud chooses Tifa over Aerith.
But who wouldn't choose Tifa over Aerith(besides Zack)?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Okay, I've seen reactions to my Japanese confirmation. Apparently, people (or just some minority) still insist that Cloud and Tifa's profiles are talking about an optional scene so it doesn't mean anything if it's romantic (I don't know what to make out of it.) So apparently, what's listed on one's profile is invalid because there is another version of it?

Also, the classic argument that my Japanese friend don't know the story so that means she cannot make a valid judgement of the meaning of her own language. She knows Final Fantasy, though it seems she doesn't care about it (LOL she figured out I was talking about it without me telling her the name of the characters.)

For now, I don't think there is anything that can make my point across the them, but last nighr Risa told me she has a lot of otaku friends... time to hunt for Japanese FF fans

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I personally think the way Cloud orders his loved ones in order of importance is this:
Tifa>Denzel>Marlene>Zack>Aerith>Nanaki>Vincent>Cid>Yuffie>Cait Sith>Barret.

 

[FLo]

Dunno, that fag doesn' t do anything, ANYTHING, Is really annoying.

So what. "you and your awesome childhood friend live in the same house, with 2 kids running around almost calling you mamy&papy, wtf man, do something, anything Its a complete nonsense to act like your acting, and it doesn' t make you cooler either... PFFF He' s really not the brightest of the bunch as far as i can see .-.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

In what world is that annoying cat ahead of Barret?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Okay, I've seen reactions to my Japanese confirmation. Apparently, people (or just some minority) still insist that Cloud and Tifa's profiles are talking about an optional scene so it doesn't mean anything if it's romantic (I don't know what to make out of it.) So apparently, what's listed on one's profile is invalid because there is another version of it?

Nothing changed, and not a single fuck was given by either side that day.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That makes Marlene sound a thousand times more badass.

Thankee. I do try.

Why not an unhealthy percentage of FFVII fic period?

Well, I was referencing a specific unhealthy fanfic involving ghost sex.

Only the true Cleriths need fear you.

And fear they do.

Just remember, Tropes Are Not Bad. Even if there are a lot of them.

Tropes are not GOOD either. Tropes simply ARE.

Okay, I've seen reactions to my Japanese confirmation. Apparently, people (or just some minority) still insist that Cloud and Tifa's profiles are talking about an optional scene so it doesn't mean anything if it's romantic (I don't know what to make out of it.) So apparently, what's listed on one's profile is invalid because there is another version of it?

That's been the basic denialist stance for awhile now, yes.
Nevermind they don't apply that same argument to any other multivariable sequence, including the date sequence.

Also, the classic argument that my Japanese friend don't know the story so that means she cannot make a valid judgement of the meaning of her own language. She knows Final Fantasy, though it seems she doesn't care about it (LOL she figured out I was talking about it without me telling her the name of the characters.)

For now, I don't think there is anything that can make my point across the them, but last nighr Risa told me she has a lot of otaku friends... time to hunt for Japanese FF fans

Their denialist argument now is that not knowing the series- even though your friend does- makes their statement unreliable. Their argument once you find a Japanese fan is that they will be a biased, rapid, Cloti.

Nothing changed, and not a single fuck was given by either side that day.

Truly, the wheels spin, but the train never moves forward.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

In what world is that annoying cat ahead of Barret?

Cloud and Barret don't like each other very much, which is why Barret is last. Sure Cait was a traitor, but Cloud seemed to have stooped having hard feelings towards Cait during his "death".

 

[Fighter]

This thing still going?

Okay, I've seen reactions to my Japanese confirmation. Apparently, people (or just some minority) still insist that Cloud and Tifa's profiles are talking about an optional scene so it doesn't mean anything if it's romantic

It used to be the scene meant rejection. Those were the days.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

One clerith claim that I love is that the fact that Cloud is unsure whose heart was calling out to him in the lifestream in the LA Highwind sene so that means he thinks it was Aerith. Even if he did think it was Aerith, his heart still calls out to Tifa in the lifestream, and all it would symbolize is that Cloud is in love with Tifa and Aerith is in love with him. In reaity, since he's unsure, it just shows that in the LA Highwind scene Cloud is still in love with Tifa, but is unsure if she loves him back.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In what world is that annoying cat ahead of Barret?

I really can't see Cloud placing them in a detailed hierarchy to begin with, but it certainly stands to reason Barret would place higher than Reeve. He's the only AVALANCHE member not part of the Seventh Heaven family to have a Cloudy Wolf ring, and the only one to have been part of that family for a while.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I'm tired of debating against cleriths. Im going to mix it up by using clerith logic to "prove" Tifa isn't in love with Cloud, and I'll start by disproving my evidence that she is that I put in this poast:

Evidence Tifa loves Cloud:
In the original game, during the Tifa date, her "I ... ..." line is clearly her saying "I love you"

It could've been anythng. We're never told.

Her online profile says she has "strong feelings" for Cloud. It should be bvious what these "strong feelings" are.

Yes feeling of disinterest.

In Case of Tifa, she feels the need to ask Cloud if he loves her, something you generally only ask people you love.

She was just curious if he loves her. It doesn't mean she loves him back.

This letter from Crisis Core:
"Sephiroth—I don't get him at all.
Is everyone in SOLDIER like him? Oh, and
are there any blond guys in SOLDIER? Well,
it's just a dream... Any girl would love to have a
blond SOLDIER guy protect her when she's in a pinch.
Well, it's no good just waiting for my
blond knight in shining armor to show up,
so I've started learning how to fight, myself.
My teacher tells me I've got a knack for it."
It's obvious this blond guy she's referring to is Cloud, and then there's also the fact that not long after that, she sends you a mail saying not to tell anyone in SOLDIER she asked about the blond guy.

The blond guy could've been anyone. It could've been Luke Skywalker for all we know.

 

[Zealkin]

Putting a hierarchy on Clouds friends and family never really sat well with me in the first place, each individual means something different to him. It's just like having friends in real life, you have "best buds" but each one of them is your friend for a reason.

Plus Hax on putting Marlene after Denzel, she was there first

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Putting a hierarchy on Clouds friends and family never really sat well with me in the first place, each individual means something different to him. It's just like having friends in real life, you have "best buds" but each one of them is your friend for a reason.

Plus Hax on putting Marlene after Denzel, she was there first

Yeah but Denzel seemed closer to Cloud than Marlene. It doesn't matter who was there "first".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What do you base that on, though? Marlene has more interaction with Cloud in the movie than Denzel, truth be told. And they're about equal in Case of Tifa.

There's really nothing to indicate who he is closest to, and little reason to go searching for whether he is closer to one of them.

 

[Zealkin]

I was joking
Isn't that what this thread is anyway? A joke

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

What do you base that on, though? Marlene has more interaction with Cloud in the movie than Denzel, truth be told. And they're about equal in Case of Tifa.

There's really nothing to indicate who he is closest to, and little reason to go searching for whether he is closer to one of them.

They're probably equal, to be honest.