The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

^

As for that, people are already making an issue on Cloud's memorial lines. I can't understand the first one but so far here are what I get from my elementary Japanese skills:


“I never really lived up to being Cloud. Tifa… Maybe one day you’ll meet the real Cloud.”
Cloud's line aboard the Highwind
"Mom... Tifa... give them back!"
"My mouth is dry" line in Aerith's death
"Everyone let's go"

Let's go or Let's Mosey?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^

As for that, people are already making an issue on Cloud's memorial lines. I can't understand the first one but so far here are what I get from my elementary Japanese skills:


“I never really lived up to being Cloud. Tifa… Maybe one day you’ll meet the real Cloud.”
Cloud's line aboard the Highwind
"Mom... Tifa... give them back!"
"My mouth is dry" line in Aerith's death
"Everyone let's go"

Which of Cloud's lines aboard the Highwind? there are several times he's aboard the Highwind and therefore several lines said by him while aboard the ship. Please clarify.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^ well I'm not good enough to understand it. I only know that it's one the Highwind and has something to do with being himself.

 

[Teioh]

Can someone seriously tell me how this perception ever came about? Seriously? I don't understand. I am unable to comprehend. How did this person came up with this headcanon? Really?

Was there any hint that Tifa was interested in Zack even once? I love Fack and I think if there was any hint that Tifa was interested in Zack I would pick up on it because I had Fack shipper goggles on since reading FHS's Splintered Dreams.

If I missed it, I would like to be enlightened.

I don't know about other people but I know that I was under the impression that there was something between Tifa and Zack when I first played FF7.

Mainly because I misinterpreted some of stuff in the game such as the letter left on Tifa's desk in Nibelheim being from him (I think it's from Johnny, right?), the scene with Zack's parents in Gongaga and Aerith calling him a lady's man. Crappy little things to draw a conclusion from but I'm lazy like that and wasn't interested in the LTD part of the game to begin with really.

The rest of the compilation has cleared this up for me since then but I can see how it came about, assuming there a idiots like me out there

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^ well I'm not good enough to understand it. I only know that it's one the Highwind and has something to do with being himself.

Ah, then it's probably "I'm Cloud, master of my own illusory world." One of my favorite lines in the game, to be honest.

 

[Edley]

It's probably this line:
"I'm Cloud, the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more. I'm going to live my life without pretending."

and then Tifa says "You sure are messed up!" because she's not so good at adding levity to a conversation. Barret goes on to remark on the inability of certain trains to allow their passengers to exit in a timely matter or something like that. There was much rejoicing.

Back on topic, what is this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments about Cloud's memorial lines? That they didn't include the one where he pledges to kill himself and spiritfuck meet Aerith at the end of the OG?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

It's probably this line:
"I'm Cloud, the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more. I'm going to live my life without pretending."

and then Tifa says "You sure are messed up!" because she's not so good at adding levity to a conversation. Barret goes on to remark on the inability of certain trains to allow their passengers to exit in a timely matter or something like that. There was much rejoicing.

Back on topic, what is this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments about Cloud's memorial lines? That they didn't include the one where he pledges to kill himself and spiritfuck meet Aerith at the end of the OG?

It's Tifa who pledges to Spiritfuck meet Aerith, Cloud simply states he thinks he and Tifa can meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No comment. (；一_&#19968

So guys.... I hate to bring this up again, but

*Gollum whisper* koooooiiiiibittooooo

I think I'm pretty clear on the its uses. I'm just curious if any of you can think of any examples in anime or video games or something where someone has used it in a one-sided sense that's been proven to have actually been one-sided?

I thought it might help if I could give the person I'm talking to something like that to consider.

I have a very important question. Do you mean 'used by a person to refer to someone else as being someone's koibito but specifically being meant in a one sided way'
or 'Used by someone to refer to someone as their lover incorrectly and therefore as one sided?'

Because I have examples of the latter off the top of my head. None of the former.

I don't know about other people but I know that I was under the impression that there was something between Tifa and Zack when I first played FF7.

Mainly because I misinterpreted some of stuff in the game such as the letter left on Tifa's desk in Nibelheim being from him (I think it's from Johnny, right?),

No. Johnny is NOT from Nibelheim. This is a misunderstanding because of his attempting to use 'Childhood friend' as a nickname for Cloud because CLOUD was Tifa's childhood friend. In truth, Johnny's a Midgar Slums native.

the scene with Zack's parents in Gongaga and Aerith calling him a lady's man. Crappy little things to draw a conclusion from but I'm lazy like that and wasn't interested in the LTD part of the game to begin with really.

Still not getting how that connects him with Tifa (Or the store owner's son's letter, either, since Zack's from half a continent away...)

The rest of the compilation has cleared this up for me since then but I can see how it came about, assuming there a idiots like me out there

Yes, but your ideas were of ignorance and misunderstanding. The ones today seem to be willful and deliberate.

 

[Morana]

Back on topic, what is this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments about Cloud's memorial lines? That they didn't include the one where he pledges to kill himself and spiritfuck meet Aerith at the end of the OG?

I never really understood the fuss about this line. They thought they are going to die so Cloud tried to be positive for once in his life and he reassured Tifa that they will meet Aerith so not everything is so black. Tifa is the one who said: "Let's meet her there." So if this is proof for any pairing, I guess AerTi is canon.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

No offence guys/girls/peeps, but the scene is a follow up to the handreach scene between Cloud and Aerith within the lifestream, it's not about Tifa. Afterwards Cloud says "An answer from the Planet ... the Promised Land ... I think I can meet her there" with the most recent canon with Reminense being "I think I can find her there" Saying it's about spirit smex is silly, I don't think this but I do think Cloud wanted to meet Aerith for himself, personally for him/for himself for his own reasons, most prominent for forgiveness, because he does care about what happened to Aerith, her thoughts/feelings/etc about this and he wants forgiveness from her, it's not all about Tifa. Cloud doesn't mention Tifa, he doesn't say "we" (apologies if this sounds harsh), Tifa invites herself (not saying this is bad/wrong of her or anything) it is her who inserts/introduces "the let's, the "us""

As far as I know there is no nod or ok or any verbal or visual reaction from Cloud to this, he doesn't reassure Tifa, in the sense he doesn't say Tifa everything is ok, we are in mortal danger but it's go we are going to/let's meet Aerith in the Promised Land together (unless this was confirmed somewhere in an Ultimania or something and I missed it) (though since he doesn't actually object/say anything either I guess we could say Cloud saying nothing means he isn't actually disagreeing and take it as a sign of agreement, Cloud's weird like that, who the hell knows what he's thinking, if he doesn't make a fuss does it mean he's agreeing or not, I guess nobody can really tell whether or not he's agreeing ... but since in this case he goes -alone- to Aerith's church, he doesn't take Tifa with her to meet Aerith, whether on his random on and off visits like when he found Denzel or when he moved in on a temporary basis, Cloud says/thinks (originally) "Aerith brought Denzel to me" Tifa says "Aerith brought Denzel to -us-" , well if I remember that right), he doesn't conclude the hand reach scene with a three way spirit smex hand clasp between Cloud, Tifa, Aerith

By catching/holding Tifa in his arms it might have been general reassurance of Tifa in general though Honestly mostly I think he just wanted to save her from falling which is reassuring in itself.

As I remember it the conclusion of the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith in the Bahamut fight was mentioned in Reminense as being used/put in/inserted there as a tribute to the hand reach scene in the original game

Well to me saying Cloud wanting to meet Aerith/the hand reach scene is about Tifa is as silly as Cloud/Aerith spirit smex (yes I like Clerith but it's not about sex to me since well it didn't happen ) and/or the peeps who would say the lifestream event, the childhood promise, etc is not about Cloud and Tifa but about Aerith since Aerith witnessed these events in the lifestream/because Aerith guided Tifa to Cloud in the lifestream/etc, silly stuffs like that!

 

[Vendel]

No offence guys/girls/peeps, but the scene is a follow up to the handreach scene between Cloud and Aerith within the lifestream, it's not about Tifa. Afterwards Cloud says "An answer from the Planet ... the Promised Land ... I think I can meet her there" with the most recent canon with Reminense being "I think I can find her there" Saying it's about spirit smex is silly, I don't think this but I do think Cloud wanted to meet Aerith for himself, personally for him/for himself for his own reasons, most prominent for forgiveness, because he does care about what happened to Aerith, her thoughts/feelings/etc about this and he wants forgiveness from her, it's not all about Tifa. Cloud doesn't mention Tifa, he doesn't say "we" (apologies if this sounds harsh), Tifa invites herself (not saying this is bad/wrong of her or anything) it is her who inserts/introduces "the let's, the "us""

In B4 Ryu correction. (because I can't recall the relevant source)

Well to me saying Cloud wanting to meet Aerith/the hand reach scene is about Tifa is as silly as Cloud/Aerith spirit smex

Who said the hand reach scene is about Tifa?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

While Cloud's line about meeting Aerith lacks definitive "I" or "we" pronouns, since it has been translated the "I" way twice officially, and for the reasons you mentioned, Maidenofwar, I agree that "I" is most appropriate.

Especially after that "The one I really want to meet is ..." line in Dissidia.

 

[Vendel]

Especially after that "The one I really want to meet is ..." line in Dissidia.

You forgot the "Tifa" at the end of that line.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Must have missed that. =P

I have a very important question. Do you mean 'used by a person to refer to someone else as being someone's koibito but specifically being meant in a one sided way'
or 'Used by someone to refer to someone as their lover incorrectly and therefore as one sided?'

Because I have examples of the latter off the top of my head. None of the former.

I assumed the question was about the latter. What examples do you know of there?

 

[Sikozu]

Yeah. Sorry for not saying it clearly enough. I meant examples of someone describing a person as their koibito without said person actually being their koibito, better if the person has no interest in being their koibito.

I'm not trying to use it to say "haha, see? Cloud always had zero interest in Aerith", I just would like some examples from other stuff if possible because I don't think we'll ever get anywhere with just me telling her what I've learned from others about the definition of the word.

This probably won't do much good either, but I thought she'd be more likely to believe it if I could show some good examples.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks Hawkeye

Yep, I know about the contextless version of the "meet" scene in the original Japanese version of the original game where it's not specified as I or we exactly. I read about it in LTD threads However with it being an I in the English version/specified as such in English translations not just in the original release but the PC rerelease and Reminense, etc as well I take it that it is a defininite "I" now. I agree with Hawkeye, I think it's most appropiate i.e so far as the story goes. I think that makes most sense with the story of Cloud wanting to meet Aerith for forgiveness/the continuity in Advent Children where Cloud wants to meet Aerith for forgiveness

Oh I didn't mean here/the people here in this current LTD thread specifically just elsewhere on the interwebs I've saw peeps say the hand reach scene was about Tifa, ranging from Cloud was reaching for Tifa's hand the whole time, he didn't think he was/wasn't reaching for Aerith's hand, physically it was never really Aerith's hand in the first place, physically it was always Tifa's, they just forgot to put the glove on

Both sides can come up with some pretty silly stuffs tbh

 

[Sikozu]

I've saw peeps say the hand reach scene was about Tifa, ranging from Cloud was reaching for Tifa's hand the whole time, he didn't think he was/wasn't reaching for Aerith's hand, physically it was never really Aerith's hand in the first place, physically it was always Tifa's, they just forgot to put the glove on

Both sides can come up with some pretty silly stuffs tbh

Wow. I've never heard this before. - _ - Seriously? Boooooo. It was already obviously Aerith's hand, but after AC if anyone still thinks it was Tifa, then... whatever.

And I personally like the "I" being used in the "meet" line. While I can't say I see much romantic compatibility/chemistry between Cloud and Aerith myself, I know they care very much about each other. That's a fact. It's not like him saying "I" means that Tifa is unwelcome to join him, that he's trying to exclude her. Just that he has his own unique reasons for wanting to see Aerith again. He obviously had no problem with the idea of Tifa accompanying him.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Good post

Yeah I always thought it was obvious it was Aerith's hand what with Aerith's theme playing, it being a naked hand reaching out from the lifestream not a gloved one, and all but yeah Advent Children should have hammered in the point (who knows though) I also agree Cloud cares very much about Aerith. When people say for Cloud it's about guilt/forgiveness they don't mean it as no Cloud doesn't care jack at all about Aerith, of course he does, to me it's not all about pure guilt, etc alone because Cloud did build up a special bond with Aerith, in the Ultimanias it says Cloud was building up/built up a special bond with Aerith and this was while she was alive so I think Aerith acted this out in Advent Children as a sort of spiritual guardian (sorry if that sounds silly) While I don't think Cloud and Aerith had/have spirit smex I do think they have a spiritual (I know this might seem silly to peeps but FFVII is a lot about lifestream and souls/spirits so ) bond what with Aerith being able to get inside Cloud's mind with the Sleeping Forest dream, Cloud feeling Aerith at the City of the Ancients (yeah he has this sort of spiritual bond with Sephiroth as well only with Seph it's sinisters ), meeting with her in the flower field within the lifestream, etc in Advent Children) I think with the quote Danseru showed from her Japanese friend about some people in Japan thinking Cloud and Aerith had something but that it was a more than friends, less than lovers shows it was a special bond too ... I think maybe Aerith was considered family too, didn't Marlene call her "Neechan"/"Sister" in an earlier/the original JP version of AC? At least that's what I heard So the more than friends less than lovers could mean Aerith was part of the Avalanche family too

Of course Cloud would be fine with Tifa accompanying him to meet Aerith in the lifestream, if everyone were ded what's Aerith gonna do ban Tifa and the rest of Avalanche from the lifestream saying no u no can have your spirits here!?

He didn't take her to the church in Advent Children true but this was due to the way he was feeling at the time and because of that he thought he might get scolded/Tifa might get angry, he was afraid of his past getting in the way of his current happiness and sure he went to be somewhere where he felt a connection to someone special to him in his past (he had a happy time with Aerith/while escaping the church is where he laugh/smiled/joked with her - yes there was stuff to do with influences in/on Cloud at the time but as said before Real Cloud remembered his time as Illusionary Cloud, he remembed Aerith) but that didn't mean he stopped caring about or wanting to be with his family, also I don't think Cloud had any control of being able to take Tifa to meet Aerith within the lifestream at that time anyway.

Thanks for all the translations/info on the Ultimania samples Danseru-kun

Spoiler

Apparently Cloud's line about Aerith's smile "Aerith. She was smiling to the end" is on one of the sample pages as well (yeah there were two for peeps who didn't see them)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith was definitely considered family too. I think I remember a line from The Kids Are Alright, actually, where Tifa says that very thing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here you go: http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...rojects/11751/summary-of-the-new-ffvii-novel/

 

[Vendel]

Yeah I always thought it was obvious it was Aerith's hand what with Aerith's theme playing, it being a naked hand reaching out from the lifestream not a gloved one,

Obvious to us. But I have seen it described as "a hand in the light" or some such.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's also missing big golden bracelets.

Here's the trick folks, it's BOTH WOMEN'S HANDS.

Aerith's leading his dopey ass back to his body so he can be a big damn hero and save Tifa because AERITH WOULD DO THAT FOR HER FRIENDS.

Also, re: 'Said Koibito and is wrong' Ataru Morobishi. Like every episode of Uresei Yatsura.

 

[Lex]

Is anyone else just sick to death of the word Koibito? I mean seriously, I would love to know how many times it's been mentioned in this thread. Every time I read it I get this strange tingly feeling at the front of my head that causes my eyes to want to roll and a rage fit to ensue.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^As I understand it, that's normal. Just scream and punch things until it goes away and all will be well until next time.

 

[Danseru-kun]

No comment. (；一_&#19968

So guys.... I hate to bring this up again, but

*Gollum whisper* koooooiiiiibittooooo

I think I'm pretty clear on the its uses. I'm just curious if any of you can think of any examples in anime or video games or something where someone has used it in a one-sided sense that's been proven to have actually been one-sided?

I thought it might help if I could give the person I'm talking to something like that to consider.

I'll just repeat what my Japanese classmate told me: