The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[T@ctic]

Cloud was there, but he didn't have any control of what he was saying or doing, he was merely observing. It's was the equivalent of watching TV, and seeing an character behave in a certain manner that you disagree with, yet being powerless to stop it, no matter how much you yell at the screen. That is the reason why even though the real Cloud remembers Aerith, even though he never interacted with her.




That was when Sephiroth was in complete control of Cloud's body, that isn't the first time we hear the real Cloud yell at, or try to reach out to the fake Cloud. He yells at him at various points in disc 1 as well, you can hear him from as early as Wall Market. That was your first clue that something was very wrong with Cloud. Technically Sephiroth or rather JENOVA was in control of Cloud from day 1, that was just the first time the game spelled it out to you that something was wrong, though if you were paying attention you would have figured it out much earlier.



Sadly it is, anything that Cloud says before the Lifestream event we have to take at face value. Though later on during the lifestream event real Cloud does repeat it. So yes, we can attribute this to Cloud's character.




Considering that the person she was talking to wasn't the real Cloud no. Fake Disc 1 Cloud's adopted personality, was taken from Zack, it wasn't really Cloud. This is the reason why we see Tifa second guessing everything he says, because she knows that she can only take it at face value. And from what we've seen of Zack, Zack would perform CPR on Priscilia, he would flirt with Aerith, he would be nice to Marlene, basically Zack would behave in a very similar manner to disc 1 Cloud, or at least JENOVA believed that he would. Its a pretty tough pill to swallow no matter who you ship with Cloud (though because I ship Clack it doesn't affect me ).

Also Tifa and Cloud did basically restart at zero, but take into consideration even though we do know how much has passed in disc 1 we don't know how much time has passed between the other discs. Though another way to look at it is that because of Cloud's circumstance in disc 1 is the reason there are two highwind scenes. In the high affection version, you have to show affection to Tifa in disc 1. So essentially this means that even though Cloud wasn't right in the head he still loved her enough that his affection for her shined through despite the fact that he messed up. However, in low affection you did essentially start over from zero, even though the two of them do now know that they love one another, their relationship has been restarted and this is despite Cloud's words to her at the Northern Crater. Also when people are unsure of death, they will spend whatever time they have with the person they love the most, and for Tifa and Cloud (both of whose families are dead) that means each other.




I think that FFVII is a great game as well, but at the same time, I think that people put way too much importance on disc 1, when you really shouldn't, especially on the subject of Cloud, but the reveal about Cloud kinda informs us that we should take his behavior at face value.

wish i could kiss you : )

 

[Knuxson]

Hello,

I have been lurking around thelifestream.net for awhile and have read a lot on this debate as well as Squall_of_SeeD's article on it in the Canon section of the site. As someone who has played Final Fantasy VII over a dozen times (and even just did a full run through Crisis Core, FF7, ACC, and Dirge of Cerberus), I feel that it is pretty obvious that Cloud ends up with Tifa. But what I want to bring up is something that irks me about certain logic I've seen concerning Cloud's childhood feelings for Tifa.

In Squall_of_SeeD's article, and in some Clerith supporters' arguments I have seen, they seem to discount Cloud's childhood feelings as not being critical to the issue. The beginning of Squall_of_SeeD's article even says that Cloud's childhood feelings are not considered because, even though Cloud had feelings for Tifa when he was 16, that does not mean he still does now. However, that argument might make sense for a normal person, but it does not make any sense at all for Cloud.

As we find out in the OG, Cloud harbored strong feelings for Tifa since childhood. In Cloud's subconscious while in the lifestream, Cloud talks about his "tender feelings, that no one can ever know." Further, he says that, after the combination of looking at Tifa from afar and failing to save her from falling from Mt. Nibel, he desired to join soldier so that she would notice him and because he felt like he was not good enough for her because he was weak. He wanted to impress her because he was in love with her, but he felt that he was either not good enough for her or she was simply not interested in him, or both. When Cloud returns at the age of 16 after failing to join Soldier, he is so embarrassed to face Tifa that he hides his face behind his mask. This is shown in Crisis Core as well, and Zack even notices that Cloud has unresolved feelings for her. As an aside, Cloud obviously does not know that since he left the town that Tifa thought of him often.

So, at the age of 16 when the Nibelheim incident occurs, Cloud is still in love with Tifa. But, as I said, some people have argued that just because he may have loved her when he was a kid and at the age of 16, five years have passed and he could have moved on. However, right after the Nibelheim incident he was experimented on by Hojo and was basically in a COMA up to the beginning of Final Fantasy VII. I don't think he exactly changed much, moved on, or really had any other life experiences during that time that would cause him to stop being in love with the woman he was in life with since childhood and up to the start of his comatose state. While he does have experiences after Tifa finds him that includes pretty much disc 1 of the OG, during this time he remembers little of his childhood, his feelings for Tifa, or the real events at Nibelheim. In fact, the only memory from his childhood seems to be the water tower memory where he made the promise to Tifa.

During disc 1, he is not really himself and may not feel the exact same way about Tifa as he did when he was 16 because he can't remember how he used to feel about her. While in the lifestream, he uncovers how he really felt about her back then and I see no reason why he would decide that he no longer felt that way now. The ONLY way you can argue that Cloud's feelings for Tifa went away would be to argue that those events during disc 1 changed him enough for him to no longer feel that way. However, it only makes sense that upon discovering his true self in the lifestream along with how he felt about Tifa for his entire life up to the beginning of disc 1, he would feel the same way about her now as he did then, considering barely any time had passed for him at all.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

wish i could kiss you : )

That's what Aerith said!

Best way to see Cloud is like being drunk. When you're drunk, you say different things to people, but mean them, while you're drunk. They can sometimes be honest too, but the bottomline is you don't take what people say when they're drunk as examples of their personality, their intents or their non-intoxicated feelings.

That's how I see Cloud on disk 1. It's till Cloud, by and large, it's him acting out of character, making choices, out of character, but still living with the repercussions of his behaviour. Anyone who has been out for a bender on a Friday night can relate. Saturday is disk 2, Friday night is disk 1. You're responsible for your choices drunk, but they aren't necessarily examples of your personality nor your wishes.

 

[Knuxson]

Forgive me if I am bringing up stuff already discussed ad nauseum (I did read close to 100 pages of this thread, but not the whole thing) I just thought of something else that has always bugged me about the whole debate: whether the Aerith date is canon or not. My response: it doesn't really matter. However, I actually like to think of it as canon because I think it makes the best sense from a storytelling perspective. I think this for a few reasons.

First, no matter what responses you choose for Cloud to say during the game, Aerith offers him a date for protecting her. Later in the game, there is a chance to go on a date with one of the characters. It only makes sense for that character to be the one who actually offered to go on a date with Cloud earlier in the game. As the writer of the story, I would want there to be something that comes out of that line Aerith utters at the beginning of the game. Otherwise, it is just a strange line that has no significance, other than to show some slight flirting.

Also, I think the timing of the date is very important from a storytelling perspective. As you all know, the date occurs right before they go to the Temple of the Ancients, which is the last time you are with Aerith before you watch her die. The date is almost like a chance for Cloud and Aerith to say goodbye. Plus, going on that date makes losing her shortly after more impactful because you, the player, just got to spend some quality time with her. I think this is also the reason why Cait Sith performs his compatibility test on Cloud and Aerith in the Temple. It further adds emotion to the fact that Cloud is about to watch her die.

Now, the reason I say it does not really matter in the end which date is canon is because, even if Aerith's was, it really makes no difference as far as who Cloud ends up romantically involved with. It isn't like Aerith and Cloud end up together after that date, or even kiss or anything. They have some fun and then Aerith tells Cloud that she wants to get to know him better (meet the real him). I am not saying there is not attraction there, because I think there is, but the date with Aerith also does not cement them as being for each other either.

Again, I think it works great from a story perspective. The writers create this love triangle between Aerith, Tifa, and Cloud. While it is pretty obvious that Aerith and Tifa both are attracted to Cloud, it is ambiguous how Cloud feels, especially considering many of his responses are chosen by the player. However, he is strangely silent when there is not an option for the player. For example, during Cait Sith's compatibility test, he just stands there. However, close to Aerith's death, as I mentioned above, the writer does start to push Aerith and Cloud closer together to an extent. THEN, that love interest (Aerith) is killed off and shortly after the protagonist has a mental breakdown when he discovers that his memories are a lie.

But shortly after all that happens, the remaining love interest (Tifa) helps him recover and, during that recovery, the protagonist discovers that he loved the remaining love interest during his childhood and teenage years (and really his whole life as I explained in my previous post above). I believe the writers structured the whole thing this way for a reason. The love triangle was to add interest and intrigue between these 3 characters, but once one of them was killed it was safe to reveal the real love interest, which I believe the lifestream scenes do. In fact, I think the lifestream scenes are the single most important scenes in the OG when it comes to the LTD. Cloud's interest in either Aerith or Tifa is chosen by the player during the first disc. However, it is in the lifestream that Cloud, not the player, talks about his romantic feelings. You could argue he does this when Aerith dies too, but that is more akin to grief over seeing someone he cares about die, rather than romantic love.

For the record, I am not saying that the Aerith date is canon, but I do think it would make sense for it to be canon. As I said, due to the scenes in the lifestream as well as other scenes (under the highwind and the compilation material) I don't think it makes a difference to the LTD who Cloud went on the date with. I do think Aerith's date carries the most significance, though.

Sorry for the unsolicited rambling, but I just wanted to post my thoughts on this.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Canon.

The word is Canon. One N.

Sorry, it just bugged the hell out of me.

Anyways, I hold all the dates happen, because funny and why not.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

It's always an interesting question as depending on how you look at the game, Tifa or Aeris have certain canon qualities.

If we look from a narrative perspective, Aeris' date is the set up before the fall. Given we don't know Cloud's past or true personality at this point, given he's still deluding himself he's Zack, you could say the Aeris date is the culmination of that arc before the curtain (or should we say, sword) falls on the Aeries/Cloud storyline.

Equally, the Tifa storyline is still bubbling at this point, with a question of what she knows that she's not telling the audience nor Cloud. Her event is equally suggestive and very close to a point where that mystery is to be resolved (shortly after Aeris' death), so again that carries narrative pertinacity as the first chapter marker comes close to falling.

Personally, I like the idea, like a farcical comedy, that both dates happen. He gets back from one, to be pulled on an identical date with the other. I suspect if anyone ever made a 12 hour movie of FF7, that's how they'd do it.

If I was to pick one, as "official" for me, it would be Aeris, as I think that follows the far heavier strand of adoring girl/awkward bodyguard story that's about to do the twist.

 

[Knuxson]

Canon.

The word is Canon. One N.

Sorry, it just bugged the hell out of me.

Anyways, I hold all the dates happen, because funny and why not.

Whoops, sorry. I actually knew that it was spelled differently, but I typed my post pretty fast and wasn't thinking. Or maybe I was just trying to be explosive (firing a cannon...not funny?...ok).

Anyway, it would be interesting if all the dates happened. Of course, it sure would be hard to be the "100th couple" to go to the play 4 times in one night.

If I was to pick one, as "official" for me, it would be Aeris, as I think that follows the far heavier strand of adoring girl/awkward bodyguard story that's about to do the twist.

I agree. I think it just makes the most sense in terms of the story being told at that point in the game for it to be Aerith that goes on the date with Cloud.

 

[BlankBeat]

Maidenofwar, to follow up on our PM conversation:

I ship Cloud and Aerith because Aerith is the first person in the game Cloud cares for besides himself. In fact, Cloud cares for Aerith despite not fully being himself. This fact doesn’t diminish their relationship, but proves how strong it actually is.

Before I go on, this is an important quote:

“After developing his personality by using Zack’s memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud’s coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality.” ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

So although Cloud wasn’t completely himself during disc 1, parts of the ‘real’ Cloud were present during his time with Aerith. It is also stated that the Jenova cells inside Cloud mimicked Tifa’s memories of him. Since Tifa’s memories were of the ‘real’ Cloud, Jenova’s cells mimicked portions of the ‘real Cloud’ that fashioned yet another personality for him.

During the beginning of the game Cloud makes it very clear that he doesn’t care about the world, AVALANCHE, or anything but himself. Only with the promise of financial reward does Cloud agree to blow up the mako reactor. Then, after Cloud’s first mission with AVALANCHE, Tifa has to promise Cloud an even larger sum of money to convince him to stay.

However, with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud agrees to be her bodyguard for the mere price of a romantic date. He laughs with her. He takes her home safely, and even has a flashback in her house about having an ‘older’ girlfriend. What could possibly trigger this flashback besides romantic infatuation?

Another quote I’d like to draw attention to is this one:

"At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front. After it is revealed that he was never in SOLDIER, and he begins to act like himself, but he still doesn’t show his emotions very much. The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness.” ~Final Fantsay VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This is significant. Aerith was able to evoke laugher from Cloud despite Jenova’s control over his consciousness. It doesn’t make sense that Jenova would make Cloud flirt and laugh with Aerith, and we’ve already established that parts of the ‘real’ Cloud were there during his interaction with Aerith. Therefore, it is very significant that Aerith was the only character that was able to evoke laugher from Cloud. And it’s even more impressive that she was able to do it while Jenova was in control of his consciousness.

Aerith brought out something in Cloud that no one else was able to do. Tifa wasn’t even able to make Cloud laugh when Jenova WASN’T in control of his consciousness. The fact that Aerith was able to make Cloud laugh when Jenova WAS in control of Cloud’s consciousness tells us Aerith could do what no one else could — bring laughter, happiness, and joy to a man who was profoundly messed up.

The emotional connection between them began during their initial encounter when Cloud thought Aerith’s eyes were, "impressive" (1) and that her smile was a, "good purchase" (1). Cloud left this initial encounter with a, "mysterious" feeling (2), a feeling that I believe was love at first sight.

In fact, after all that unfolded during their first two encounters, Cloud tells Marlene that he “hopes” Aerith likes him.

Then, Barret observes how when Cloud wants to save Aerith from the Shinra headquarters, it was the first time he had ever seen Cloud care for someone besides himself (3).

Then, Cloud and Aerith flirt with each other in the Shinra jail cells. This leads to Tifa letting her, "peevish feelings slip" (4) when she witnesses the "world" (4) and “special bond” (5) Cloud and Aerith were forming together that was "different" (5) than the bond she had with Cloud.

Both Barret and Tifa see what should be obvious: Cloud. Likes. Aerith. He likes her a lot. He likes her so much he is willing to risk his life and save her from the Shinra headquarters after only knowing her for a short while (6). Aerith is the first person Cloud cares for besides himself.

In other words, if what we witnessed with our own eyes wasn’t enough, Squaresoft reinforces the obvious romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith by telling us Tifa let her, "peevish feelings slip" (4) when she observed Cloud and Aerith’s "special bond" (5), and when they had Barret say Aerith was the first person he ever saw Cloud care for besides himself (3).

In a way, Barret’s observation is a clear indication to the gamer that Aerith must be someone very special and important to Cloud because despite how messed up he is, he truly cares for Aerith.

Eventually, Cloud tells Aerith he is there for her in Cosmo Canyon, and a date is shared between them in Golden Saucer. Cloud and Aerith’s time together during disc 1 is a very typical way in which romantic relationships begin — initial attraction based on physical features (check), thinking about relationships/talking about them (check), telling others you like them (check), flirting/spending alone time together/getting to know each other (check), outsiders observing/commenting on the mutual attraction (check), expressing that you are there for the other person (check), going on a date (check).

Then, when Aerith dies, you see Cloud breakdown, cry, and express more emotion than he has all game. Cloud expresses more emotion than any other character when Aerith dies. If his reaction and guilt about Aerith’s death does not prove he truly cares for and loves Aerith (despite not being his complete self when they interacted) I don’t know what does.

Even after Cloud realizes his past and fully becomes himself, he still carries grief, guilt, and sorrow over Aerith’s death. Therefore, if their relationship is somehow null-in-void because Cloud wasn’t completely himself during the time they spent together, why does Cloud (after becoming his complete self) harbor such emotion towards Aerith based on the time they shared while he was ‘messed up’? If Cloud continues to feel strong emotions towards Aerith after fully becoming himself, it means the time they spent together while he was ‘messed up’ is relevant and meaningful to the ‘real’ Cloud.

Aerith was the primary character that was able to bring out the caring side of the ‘real’ Cloud, despite how messed up he was. In other words, Aerith was able to bring the ‘real’ Cloud to the surface and have the ‘real’ Cloud shine through during a time when the ‘real’ Cloud was buried beneath Jenova’s cells and Zack’s memories.

It is silly and downright ridiculous to say that because Cloud wasn’t fully himself during most of his interaction with Aerith that their relationship is somehow insignificant or ‘lesser’. I believe that Cloud not being his complete self makes the case for Cloud x Aerith stronger. It proves that Aerith was the only character that was able to have the ‘real’ Cloud shine through and show us that Cloud not only cares for other people, but that he can, yes, even laugh.

"…there seems to be something between them”. ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix

____________________________________
1: “She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase.” ~Final Fantasy Dismantled
____________________________________
2: “After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base…” ~Final Fantasy VII, Story Playback, Page 111
____________________________________
3: Cloud: I didn’t want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…
Barret: Heh, heh, heh.
Cloud: What is it? You’re givin’ me the willies.
Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.
Cloud: Who cares if you’re impressed…?
____________________________________
4: "Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings." ~Final Fantasy 10th Anniversary Ultimania
____________________________________
5: “Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s. Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.” ~Final Fantasy 10th Anniversary Ultimania
____________________________________
6: “Cloud: And then, Aerith got kidnapped.
In exchange for Marlene’s safety, she was taken away by the Turks.
If only she was not involved in this battle between me and Shinra…..
Aerith’s mother told us that she’s a foster child. And because she’s the last survival of “the Ancents,” Shinra was after her since she was little.
So far, it seemed the Turks had never tried to forcibly take her away in violent manner. They just persistently asked for her cooperation.
But, Shinra was entirely impetuous this time.
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means!” ~Final Fantasy Dismantled

 

[Knuxson]

You make some good points BlankBeat. I agree that it seems like, on disc 1 at least, Cloud has stronger romantic feelings towards Aerith. There is definitely attraction between them. However, you focus on the fact that Cloud only starts to show concern for other people after he meets Aerith. That is true, if you are only looking at Cloud's life starting with the beginning of the game. But I would argue that Cloud, the real Cloud, has always cared about people. He cared very much about his hometown and especially about Tifa back when Nibelheim was destroyed. He was devastated when Sephiroth grievously wounded Tifa. There was obviously something about Aerith that caused him to act differently than he was acting at the beginning of the game, though.

Also, I noticed you mentioned that Cloud says he hopes Aerith likes him to Marlene, but that is another one of those responses that the player chooses. You can choose for Cloud not to say that. Regardless, I do agree that Cloud and Aerith share a special bond and even romantic attraction. But I do not think that Cloud, after regaining his memories (especially those memories of his childhood love for Tifa), necessarily continued to live out his days in love with Aerith. That is why I don't ship Cloud x Aerith. Despite the feelings Cloud had for Aerith and their special bond, I don't think he disregarded his feelings for Tifa upon uncovering them and continued to be in love with someone who died. I think, with difficulty, he moved on and started a life with someone he has always cared about.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Aerith is the first person Cloud cares for besides himself.

Just because Barret remarks this doesn't mean it's the truth. Don't take one person's perspective over the what we are shown. Cloud has always cared for Tifa, he followed her through Mt. Nibel and blamed himself for failing to save her, in Sephiroth's massacre he carried her to a safe place, he is willing to cross dress to save her from Don Corneo (which Barret didn't see.)

Cloud ".........." "You worry about yourselves! I'm all right, but take care of Tifa!"

Right after Cloud brings Aerith back to her house

Aerith "So, what are you going to do now?"

Cloud "...Is Sector 7 far from here? I want to go to Tifa's bar."

Cloud "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......" "First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...."

Aerith "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

"Well, if it's to save Tifa... I guess there's no way around."

Cloud surely isn't thinking of money when he crossdresses to save Tifa. There's also Zack and his mother.

Being someone's bodyguard is much less problematic than being involved with a terrorist group going against the most powerful corporation in the world. The latter involves bombing and killing. These two choices should not be taken to prove Cloud's romantic affinity to another woman.

I'm not dissing the Clerith relationship's strength, I just don't like it when Cloud's bond with others are made out to be less.

 

[BlankBeat]

But I would argue that Cloud, the real Cloud, has always cared about people. He cared very much about his hometown and especially about Tifa back when Nibelheim was destroyed. He was devastated when Sephiroth grievously wounded Tifa. There was obviously something about Aerith that caused him to act differently than he was acting at the beginning of the game, though.

I agree completely. Cloud has always been a caring person. But when he was messed up with Zack's memories and Jenova's cells, he wasn't exactly the caring person he was previously.

My entire point was that Aerith was the primary character that was able to bring out the caring side of the 'real' Cloud, despite how messed up he was. In other words, despite being messed up by Jenova's cells, Cloud's emotional connection to Aerith was powerful enough to bring the 'real', caring Cloud to the surface.

Also, I noticed you mentioned that Cloud says he hopes Aerith likes him to Marlene, but that is another one of those responses that the player chooses. You can choose for Cloud not to say that. Regardless, I do agree that Cloud and Aerith share a special bond and even romantic attraction.

“Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she’s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says “I won’t tell Tifa!” demonstrates this grownup behavior.” ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let’s hope so."
Marlene: "I won’t tell Tifa."

--------------------

Just because Barret remarks this doesn't mean it's the truth. Don't take one person's perspective over the what we are shown. Cloud has always cared for Tifa, he followed her through Mt. Nibel and blamed himself for failing to save her, in Sephiroth's massacre he carried her to a safe place, he is willing to cross dress to save her from Don Corneo (which Barret didn't see.)

You missed two of my biggest big-picture points:

1. Yes, Cloud has shown he is a caring person in the past. But while he was messed up from Jenova's cells and Zack's memories, the only person that was able to show us the caring side of Cloud was Aerith. She was the only character that made Cloud laugh and cry. And what makes it even more impressive, is that Aerith was able to evoke this strong of an emotional response from Cloud while he was messed up.

Aerith was able to bring the 'real' Cloud to the surface and have the 'real' Cloud shine through during a time when the 'real' Cloud was buried beneath Jenova's cells and Zack's memories.

2. Barret's observation, I think, is a very logical observation to make based on the evidence I provided ("impressive eyes", smile a "good purchase", "mysterious feeling", telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, accepting a date as payment, having a flashback in Aerith's house about romantic relationships, etc.)

But even more, Barret's observation was a way for SE to signal to us that Cloud and Aerith have a "special bond", a bond that is obviously laced with romance. Even Tifa agrees with Barret's observation that Cloud and Aerith have a unique relationship in which Cloud is actually showing qualities that he had not shown yet. Cloud and Aerith's relationship is a relationship that Tifa is jealous of because she likes Cloud romantically, which means even Tifa sees Cloud's romantic attraction to Aerith.

Both Barret and Tifa see what should be obvious: Cloud. Likes. Aerith. He likes her a lot. He likes her so much he is willing to risk his life and save her from the Shinra headquarters after only knowing her for a short while. Do you really think Barret's observation is false, especially knowing Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met?

Squaresoft reinforces the obvious romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith by telling us Tifa let her, "peevish feelings slip" when she observed Cloud and Aerith’s "special bond", and when they had Barret say Aerith was the first person he ever saw Cloud care for besides himself. Why would SE have two characters make observations and comments about Cloud and Aerith's relationship? Why would they have Cloud's other love interest express jealously over the "special bond" and "world" that Cloud and Aerith were forming that was "different" than the relationship she had with Cloud?

Barret’s observation and Tifa's jealously are both a clear indication to the gamer from SE that Aerith must be someone very special and important to Cloud because despite how messed up he is, he truly cares for Aerith as evidenced by his desire to rescue her from the Shinra headquarters.

Barret's observation leads evidence in support of the Clerith relationship in two ways: 1. It is a signal from the creators that Cloud and Aerith have a very special relationship that is causing Cloud to exhibit caring qualities he had not shown yet in the game and 2. It is a very logical conclusion for anyone to make based on the evidence I've provided, which is why he made it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

You missed two of my biggest big-picture points:

You completely ignored the rest of my post showing how Cloud cares for Tifa even in his cocky persona. Cloud was paid by Barret and has no reason to go back to 7th Heaven yet when he safety brought Aerith home he wanted to go back to "Tifa's bar" right away even if Aerith insists he stays. He has no intention of going back to Aerith and she only came along and persisted to accompany Cloud to Sector 7.

Then the whole crossdressing thing happened because Cloud is worried about Tifa. It may be Aerith's information that enabled him to know what's happening , Aerith's idea to dress him up, bu Cloud says:

"If that's what it takes to save Tifa."

Yes he cares for her before he meets Aerith and even after.

 

[BlankBeat]

You completely ignored the rest of my post showing how Cloud cares for Tifa even in his cocky persona. Cloud was paid by Barret and has no reason to go back to 7th Heaven yet when he safety brought Aerith home he wanted to go back to "Tifa's bar" right away even if Aerith insists he stays. He has no intention of going back to Aerith and she only came along and persisted to accompany Cloud to Sector 7.

Then the whole crossdressing thing happened because Cloud is worried about Tifa. It may be Aerith's information that enabled him to know what's happening , Aerith's idea to dress him up, bu Cloud says:

"If that's what it takes to save Tifa."

Yes he cares for her before he meets Aerith and even after.

Cloud knew there were more reactors, and Tifa is a huge part of AVALANCHE. I'd say Cloud knew Tifa was willing to keep paying him more and more money for each mission, so of course he wanted to save the person who was willing to agree to his payment demands.

If Tifa meant so much to Cloud, why didn't Cloud stay when he FIRST went to Seventh Heaven? Tifa had to promise Cloud an even greater sum of money to get him to stay.

And yes, Cloud does say, "Take care of Tifa" to Barret. This is, after-all, a love triangle. But when you compare that to Cloud laughing for only Aerith and his willingness to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters to save her, it becomes obvious that Aerith is the primary character that is able to bring the real, caring Cloud to the surface. EDIT: Both Barret and Tifa observe this "special bond" that is making Cloud exhibit qualities we had not seen him show before, and both of them make remarks about it. Why is it so hard for you to accept that there seems to be "something between them"? Even SE thinks so.

 

[Knuxson]

I was always under the impression that Cloud stayed with AVALANCHE because Tifa brought up the promise they made at the well. Yes, he then asks for more money, but he was hell bent on leaving before Tifa brought up the promise.

Cloud and Aerith did have a special bond. Others in the party noticed and Tifa indeed was jealous. However, all this occurs before the end of disc 1. In disc 2, Cloud finds himself and his past feelings for Tifa. It is very difficult to say how Cloud and Aerith's relationship would have been had they met while Cloud was himself, given how strongly he felt about Tifa his whole life.

But either way, Cloud did develop feelings for Aerith during disc 1. But as far as who he settles down with a lives out his life with, that is Tifa. Again, I don't believe Cloud resolved himself to hanging on to Aerith's memory for the rest of his life. He does do that for awhile due to feeling guilty for letting her die, but we see him move on at the end of AC.

 

[OniRaitei]

Cloud knew there were more reactors, and Tifa is a huge part of AVALANCHE. I'd say Cloud knew Tifa was willing to keep paying him more and more money for each mission, so of course he wanted to save the person who was willing to agree to his payment demands.

Whoa, whoa. I was nodding my head to some of your points for a while, despite being a devout CloTi. I'm capable of being objective. Yet you have clearly crossed a line with that statement.

I got the impression that Cloud was merely trying act like some badass mercenary when it came to the whole money issue.

"At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front.
- Final Fantsay VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

After remembering/being reminded of the promise (depends on your choice) I don't think Cloud was going to just walk out. However, Barret climbs into the room at this point. In order to maintain his tough guy act in front of Barret, Cloud has to demand more money. Claiming that Cloud views Tifa as a cash cow to be milked is shocking. You think Cloud went through all the trouble and humiliation of rescuing Tifa from Don Corneo for some pocket change?

You also keep riding this bit about Cloud going to save Aerith at Shinra HQ. Cloud would have done the same for Tifa. Clearly Cloud is not afraid of risking his life since he is already doing missions with AVALANCHE. He has also shown the trouble he will go through to rescue Tifa already. I will agree with you that it is somewhat significant that Cloud is going to rescue Aeris after knowing he for such a short time, but Aeris doesn't have the market cornered.

 

[BlankBeat]

Whoa, whoa. I was nodding my head to some of your points for a while, despite being a devout CloTi. I'm capable of being objective. Yet you have clearly crossed a line with that statement.

I got the impression that Cloud was merely trying act like some badass mercenary when it came to the whole money issue.

"At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front.
- Final Fantsay VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

After remembering/being reminded of the promise (depends on your choice) I don't think Cloud was going to just walk out. However, Barret climbs into the room at this point. In order to maintain his tough guy act in front of Barret, Cloud has to demand more money. Claiming that Cloud views Tifa as a cash cow to be milked is shocking. You think Cloud went through all the trouble and humiliation of rescuing Tifa from Don Corneo for some pocket change?

You also keep riding this bit about Cloud going to save Aerith at Shinra HQ. Cloud would have done the same for Tifa. Clearly Cloud is not afraid of risking his life since he is already doing missions with AVALANCHE. He has also shown the trouble he will go through to rescue Tifa already. I will agree with you that it is somewhat significant that Cloud is going to rescue Aeris after knowing he for such a short time, but Aeris doesn't have the market cornered.

My point is that I believe Cloud would have gone to rescue anyone that was in AVALANCHE. He was working for them. SE obviously made Tifa the person Cloud had to rescue in order to continue setting up the love triangle. But I believe Cloud deciding to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters is much more significant than him rescuing Tifa.

Fact is, even Barret says Cloud wanting to rescue Aerith was the first time he ever saw Cloud care about someone besides himself. Then, Cloud and Aerith flirt with each other in-front of Tifa. This triggers Tifa into a jealous rage because of the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming that was "different" than the world she shared with Cloud. It is obvious that Cloud and Aerith had a "special bond". Both Barret and Tifa saw this. And this "special bond" is romantic, as evidenced by all the things that had occurred prior to Cloud infiltrating the Shinra headquarters (EDIT: "impressive eyes", smile being a good "purchase", agreeing to be her bodyguard for the price of a date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, having a romantic flashback in Aerith's house, etc). Aerith was also the only character to make Cloud laugh -- meaning Aerith was able to bring the happy Cloud to the surface, despite him being controlled by Jenova. Cloud's response to Aerith, from their initial meeting onward, is extremely significant because Cloud starts doing things he doesn't normally do -- laughing, caring about someone besides himself, etc.

As SE states, "there seems to be something between them".

 

[OniRaitei]

My point is that I believe Cloud would have gone to rescue anyone that was in AVALANCHE.

No, that was not your point. You singled out Tifa as being Cloud's connection to a high ranking member of AVALANCHE and his way of getting paid, which would have been, according to you, his primary motivation for rescuing her.

Fact is, even Barret says Cloud wanting to rescue Aerith was the first time he ever saw Cloud care about someone besides himself. Then, Cloud and Aerith flirt with each other in-front of Tifa. This triggers Tifa into a jealous rage because of the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming that was "different" than the world she shared with Cloud. It is obvious that Cloud and Aerith had a "special bond". Both Barret and Tifa saw this. And this "special bond" is romantic, as evidenced by all the things that had occurred prior to Cloud infiltrating the Shinra headquarters. Aerith was also the only character to make Cloud laugh -- meaning Aerith was able to bring the happy Cloud to the surface. Cloud's response to Aerith, from their initial meeting onward, is extremely significant because Cloud starts doing things he doesn't normally do -- laughing, caring about someone besides himself, etc.

As SE states, "there seems to be something between them".

Come on now, you've said this already.

I don't mean to be hurtful, but what are your really trying to convince me of? If you want to convince me that there was a strong connection between Cloud and Aeris. I'm with you on that. Would Cloud and Aeris likely have ended up a couple if she hadn't died? Yeah, I'll concede that to you even if I wouldn't say its a foregone conclusion. However, if you want to convince me that all your evidence means that Cloud is still pining over Aeris after the Highwind Scene (low or high, doesn't matter which) or at the end of ACC or DoC, then I'm not with you.

 

[BlankBeat]

No, that was not your point. You singled out Tifa as being Cloud's connection to a high ranking member of AVALANCHE and his way of getting paid, which would have been, according to you, his primary motivation for rescuing her.

Getting paid could have been his primary motivation for rescuing Tifa. But what evidence suggests Cloud's desire to rescue Tifa revolved around his [possible] romantic feelings for her? Given Cloud's working relationship with AVALANCHE, is it not probable that he would have rescued anyone from the organization that was paying him?

Let me offer an alternative theory I just thought of:
The last time Cloud saw Barret and Tifa was when he fell. Both Barret and Tifa (I'm assuming) thought Cloud died from the fall. Therefore, maybe the reason Cloud wanted to go back to Seventh Heaven was to let them know he was alive? That seems like a fairly logical thing to do after an event like that. So maybe he wanted to rescue Tifa just so he could let her know he was alive? Or maybe, because of Tifa reminding him of their childhood promise, he simply wanted to save someone who he knew from childhood?

There are multiple non-romantic reasons that Cloud could have had for rescuing Tifa (he was working for AVALANCHE, he wanted to let Tifa know he didn't die from the fall, or because he knew her from childhood). But the same can't be said for when Cloud decides to rescue Aerith. Let me explain:

Given the way Cloud is portrayed at the beginning of the game, if he saw some girl being captured by Shinra, he would likely say, "not my problem". But given what he know about Cloud's reaction to Aerith (thinking her eyes are "impressive," that her smile is a "good purchase," having a "mysterious" feeling after meeting her, having a flashback about romantic relationships in her house, protecting her for the promise of a date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, and laughing with her) it is clear that at least part of his motivation for rescuing her is romantic. That is the only logical explanation.

These feelings Cloud is having for Aerith makes Cloud do things he wouldn't normally do under his current, Jenova controlled condition (protect someone for the price of a date, laugh, infiltrate the Shinra headquarters, etc). Barret picks up on this and points it out by saying Aerith is the first person he ever saw Cloud care for besides himself.

I do think that SE was setting up the love triangle during this progression of events, though. Cloud rescued Tifa, then he rescued Aerith. But after rescuing both, he decides to flirt with Aerith in-front of Tifa, tell Aerith he is there for her in Cosmo Canyon, and goes on a date with Aerith. This should tell anyone with even an ounce of common sense who Cloud prefers, especially given Tifa's jealous response to their "special bond".

Again, as SE states, "...there seems to be something between them".

I don't mean to be hurtful, but what are your really trying to convince me of? If you want to convince me that there was a strong connection between Cloud and Aeris. I'm with you on that. Would Cloud and Aeris likely have ended up a couple if she hadn't died? Yeah, I'll concede that to you even if I wouldn't say its a foregone conclusion. However, if you want to convince me that all your evidence means that Cloud is still pining over Aeris after the Highwind Scene (low or high, doesn't matter which) or at the end of ACC or DoC, then I'm not with you.

My original point was to show how Cloud being influenced by Jenova actually strengthens, not weakens, the case for Cloud x Aerith because despite Cloud not being his complete self, Aerith was STILL able to extract things from Cloud that he wouldn't have done or felt for anyone else under his Jenova controlled condition.

And I'll just say that it is not definitive that Cloud and Tifa are together after even the high affection Highwind scene. Since I've never debated with you, here is a previous post on why I believe nothing after the Highwind scene proves Cloud and Tifa turned their mutual feelings into a relationship:

I agree that it is *USUALLY* safe to assume that when a man and a woman are living together, they are in a romantic relationship. But what complicates this typical assumption in the case of Cloud and Tifa is…

1: The place Cloud and Tifa reside in has *always* been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar.

2: Typically, romantic couples sleep in the same room, yet we are shown that Cloud has a bed in his room.

3: The family formed was formed with Barret and Barret's daughter, Marlene. Marlene invites Cloud into her family.

4: Most families that are formed are formed from a romantic place. This is not the case with Cloud and Tifa's situation.

5: Nomura states he has "no clue" if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene.

6: We know that Cloud and Tifa are going through issues because of Nojima's premise that things "won't go well" between them.

7: Cloud visits the Church of Tifa's love rival (Aerith) and Tifa get's jealous about it (which proves that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church has romantic undertones)

8: The *ADVENT CHILDREN* relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *NOT* "romantic partners" or "lovers". Cloud and Tifa*NEVER* have mutual favor arrows in any of SE's relationship charts.

9: Tifa states she doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene. If Tifa doesn't know, Cloti's shouldn't pretend they know, either.

All of this tells me that a romantic relationship does not exist between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene. So although Cloud and Tifa may have shared mutual feelings during the HAHW scene, those mutual feelings did not develop into a relationship. Nomura's quote alone proves that a romantic relationship does not exist between Cloud and Tifa, but all the other reasons simply verify and support his statement.

But I do not care to argue about that because it has been rehashed so many times. But if you want to talk about it, please send me a PM.

 

[OniRaitei]

You've gotten off track. I was disputing your claim that greed is what motivated Cloud in his rescue of Tifa. I had to call you out on it. No need to start with the romantic stuff again.

As to the rest:
It has indeed been debated before. I've read your exchanges in this thread with Ryushikaze and others, and I find his arguments reflect my thoughts very well. Very entertaining stuff! So yeah, lets not debate that Highwind stuff right now. Maybe some other time in a PM.

Really though, I do give you a lot of credit, BlankBeat. You've made me rethink a lot of the Aerith pre-death material. You actually got me agreeing with you on a lot of things that I hate to agree with you on!

Catch you later maybe.

 

[BlankBeat]

You've gotten off track. I was disputing your claim that greed is what motivated Cloud in his rescue of Tifa. I had to call you out on it. No need to start with the romantic stuff again.

As to the rest:
It has indeed been debated before. I've read your exchanges in this thread with Ryushikaze and others, and I find his arguments reflect my thoughts very well. Very entertaining stuff! So yeah, lets not debate that Highwind stuff right now. Maybe some other time in a PM.

Really though, I do give you a lot of credit, BlankBeat. You've made me rethink a lot of the Aerith pre-death material. You actually got me agreeing with you on a lot of things that I hate to agree with you on!

Catch you later maybe.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad I could provide a compelling argument in favor of Cloud x Aerith and give you the Clerith perspective.

I actually spent a long time crafting and re-writing THIS post to make what I consider a very compelling argument/essay in favor of Cloud x Aerith. It's nice to hear a Cloti say my arguments are sound.

There's a reason this is a love triangle, and I think disc 1 proves, without a doubt, that Cloud loves Aerith romantically.

Thanks again for the kind words and I hope everyone gives my latest essay a chance, regardless of old feelings and past spats.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The reason this is a love triangle is because two woman want one man. That man could be gay and there'd still be a love triangle.

And I find the argument that Cloud loves Aerith romantically requires a lot of assumptions that are not usual for a narrative. This would not be problematic, save that the same folks arguing in favor of such often argue against common to the point of cliche romantic indicators in the case of C/T.

 

[BlankBeat]

The reason this is a love triangle is because two woman want one man. That man could be gay and there'd still be a love triangle.

But Cloud "wavers".

Also -- SE says that there is, "something between them [Cloud x Aerith]". What is this "something"...? And regardless of what this "something" is, that quote tells us that whatever is between them is mutual.

Tifa also notes that Cloud and Aerith have a "special bond" that is different than the bond she has with Cloud. And she's jealous about it. Why would Tifa be jealous over a friendship? Isn't it only logical to conclude that Tifa is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship because she likes Cloud and is therefore jealous that he has a "special bond" with Aerith because that "special bond" is romantic in nature? Can you really say, with a straight face, that Tifa is jealous over a "special bond" that only amounts to a friendship between Cloud and Aerith?

And I find the argument that Cloud loves Aerith romantically requires a lot of assumptions that are not usual for a narrative.

We know that Cloud initially found Aerith physically attractive (eyes are "impressive", smile a "good purchase"). He also had a "mysterious feeling" from their initial encounter, which came after finding her physically attractive. Typically, romantic relationships begin by thinking someone is attractive and having a butterfly feeling when around them. By all accounts, Cloud seems to fit the typical reaction people have when they are romantically interested in someone.

Then, Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of a romantic date. This also shows Cloud's interest in her romantically, especially after we know how he felt about her physical appearance.

Then, Cloud laughs with Aerith. She is the only character to evoke this type of emotion from Cloud, which shows his attraction to her personality. We now know Cloud is attracted to both her physical appearance AND personality. Then, Cloud is triggered into having a romantic flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith's house right after spending time with her.

Then, after all of this, Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. If it wasn't obvious before, this is prof-poistive that Cloud likes Aerith romantically. Cloud and Aerith also get to know each other on a deeper level during their date in the park where the topic of romantic relationships is brought up.

Then, Barret observes that Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself. It only takes common sense to put two-and-two together. Cloud is romantically attracted to Aerith, which is why she is the first person we see Cloud care for besides himself. Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met because he's romantically interested in her (like, duh).

Then, in the Shinra headquarters, Cloud decides to flirt with Aerith WHILE TIFA IS IN THE ROOM WITH HIM. This leads Tifa to becoming jealous because of the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming together. Tifa let's her "peevish feelings" slip when she see's this world Cloud and Aerith were forming and says, "Oh, I get it!"

So answer me honestly: what is this "world" that Cloud and Aerith were forming together and why would Tifa (as someone who romantically likes Cloud) get jealous over this "world" if it wasn't romantic in nature? And please, take into consideration the way Cloud responded to his first two encounters with Aerith, his conversation with Marlene, and his desire to risk his life to save someone he just met (ie: the first person Barret saw Cloud care for besides himself).

Then, after all this takes place, Cloud and Aerith continue to get to know each other on a deeper level. What tells us that Cloud is starting to truly care for Aerith on a deeper, more personal level, is in Cosmo Canyon when he says he will always be there for her. Cloud also goes on a date with Aerith shortly after Cosmo Canyon.

And again, answer me honestly: why does Cloud show such a strong emotional reaction during Aerith's death? Could it possibly be because of everything I've listed above? To me, it seems obvious that Cloud responds the strongest to Aerith's death because he was the only one who cared about her on a romantic level.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Come on now, you've said this already.

Get used to saying that, now Blanks is back again

And BB, answer ME honestly if you'd be so kind. All that stuff you listed trying to prove Cloud loves Aerith... what the fuck does it matter? She's dead and he's with Tifa.

 

[BlankBeat]

Get used to saying that, now Blanks is back again

Hey, when you have multiple Cloti's saying the same thing to me over-and-over again, I end up responding the same way to multiple people

And BB, answer ME honestly if you'd be so kind. All that stuff you listed trying to prove Cloud loves Aerith... what the fuck does it matter? She's dead and he's with Tifa.

Do you deny that the reasons I gave prove Cloud loves Aerith? They are Emperor and Empress, you know

To me, the LTD has centered around the question: "Who does Cloud love?"

It is clear, with the evidence I provided, that Cloud loved Aerith. His reaction to her death alone should be proof of that.

But if the LTD centers around the question, "Who does Cloud love?" -- the argument can be made that he loves both Aerith and Tifa. Therefore, to me, the answer to the LTD is not that either pairing is canon, but that both pairings have the possibility to be canon at the same time.

Also -- there is no single piece of evidence that moves Cloud and Tifa into a relationship after the HAHW scene. We are not show one piece of romantic evidence between them after the HAHW scene.

Here is my list of why there is no evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene. In-fact, there is lots of evidence that they are NOT in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene:

I agree that it is *USUALLY* safe to assume that when a man and a woman are living together, they are in a romantic relationship. But what complicates this typical assumption in the case of Cloud and Tifa is…

1: The place Cloud and Tifa reside in has *always* been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar.

2: Typically, romantic couples sleep in the same room, yet we are shown that Cloud has a bed in his room.

3: The family formed was formed with Barret and Barret's daughter, Marlene. Marlene invites Cloud into her family.

4: Most families that are formed are formed from a romantic place. This is not the case with Cloud and Tifa's situation.

5: Nomura states he has "no clue" if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene.

6: We know that Cloud and Tifa are going through issues because of Nojima's premise that things "won't go well" between them.

7: Cloud visits the Church of Tifa's love rival (Aerith) and Tifa get's jealous about it (which proves that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church has romantic undertones)

8: The *ADVENT CHILDREN* relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *NOT* "romantic partners" or "lovers". Cloud and Tifa*NEVER* have mutual favor arrows in any of SE's relationship charts.

9: Tifa states she doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene. If Tifa doesn't know, Cloti's shouldn't pretend they know, either.

All of this tells me that a romantic relationship does not exist between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene. So although Cloud and Tifa may have shared mutual feelings during the HAHW scene, those mutual feelings did not develop into a relationship. Nomura's quote alone proves that a romantic relationship does not exist between Cloud and Tifa, but all the other reasons simply verify and support his statement.

 

[BlankBeat]

Why I support Cloud x Aerith in a nutshell (I'm TRYING to be less wordy, people!): It is clear that Cloud was attracted to Aerith physically ("impressive eyes", smile a "good purchase".) But it is also clear that Cloud was attracted to Aerith's personality, too, because he laughed with her as well. Aerith was able to bring out a side of Cloud that no one else was. This set in motion the foundation for Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith that continued to develop and deepen during disc 1 through various interactions. Both Barret and Tifa observe this romantic relationship and make remarks about it. We ultimately get to see Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death, which showed us that he truly loved her by the time of her demise. Cloud continues to carry these feelings for Aerith even to this very day.