The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[OneWingedDemon]

Basically Cloud and Tifa' family as viewed with pink glasses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTLI7R1VPUQ

Platonic families!!!

 

[Unlucky]

Ooh boy one day we might just encounter this as 'pro0fz' that such a thing exists

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The "platonic" couple in that movie fall in love/had secret feelings for years, so it's probably not a good example. =P

 

[Strangelove]

not a good example

... or is it?

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

I have just watched Advent Children: Complete, which was a fascinating experience. Given the very deliberate, tactile nature to the newly inserted Zack scenes, and the epilogue change, removing Aeris from the flowers (clearly the creators were as tired hearing that justification as I was), and the addition of the final shot of the Buster Sword, and relinquish my objective summary that was Cloud and Aeris, being based on the tactile dream sequences of Aeris and the flower scene, and move to Cloud and Zack. Anything else would be far too sensical for this thread.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Oh well, it lasted all of 2.5 minutes. Not unlike Cleris itself.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

I even read the rather good LTD essay on Lifestream which was good. Though its a debate which seems as needed now as debating whether Padme was into Luke or Anakin. It's quite clear the pairings and AC Complete really emphasizes that. If you've played Crisis Core et al, you can see the intent. If you can see the intent of the law, do you really need to cypher through the legalise? Unless you have ulterior motives of course.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Nah, but yeah I mean yeah but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Aerith is my favourite character and when I played FFVII years ago before Advent Children/Crisis Core/Compilation came out I fell in love with her and her story, how she was really into Cloud, how they seemed to grow so close in a short amount of time and everything, I was really rootin' for her. Plus the original FFVII seemed to paint Zack as a bit of a jerk, a relationship with which Aerith was quite unhappy with at the end, Elmyra saying he broke Aerith's heart, the ladies man stuff and Zack saying he had a gf back in the city he could take Cloud's to but no wait the mum was there and really not seeming all that bothered about getting back to Aerith ASAP. Maybe if I had played Crisis Core first but this was already set in me and Aerith/Zack didn't really get a satisfactory resolution in my eyes. There was no make up scene, no discussion about what happened or w/e. They didn't even get to hold hands in AC ending asdfg

You can't blame me for being confused by an apparent music video with Cloud and Aerith afterwards and also a scene in the reminisce/extras where Cloud is apparently off/by his bike in the flower fields and there's weird stuff going on in the camera (also if I remember right reminisce also featured a number of scenes with Cloud and Aerith during story playback ending with the hand reach/I think I can find her there stuff and the shots of all the characters looking up including Cloud and Aerith opening her eyes from the end of FFVII, so that was happening while the bike/phonecalls/flower field thing was also going on as well, quite a treat for Clerith fans on the whole I don't think it's hard to understand why people might appreciate/wonder about that stuff anyway) Also since I saw that stuff first before playing CC and I don't have/have never seen ACC yet.

I accept/like both Clerith and Cloti but Zerith just doesn't really do it for me

I don't really care that Cleris only lasted 2.5 minutes or w/e, Cloud and Aerith formed a special bond with romantic undertones, grew close in a short amount of time and Cloud treasures her memory. Personally I enjoy the build up/the build up scenes it had (and stuffs like the musical rendition of the LT recently wow) and nobody can ever ruin that for me

Oh well as long as Square Enix keeps throwing Clerith fluff/Cloud and Aerith cameos at me I'm good

 

[Dashell]

the ladies man stuff and Zack saying he had a gf back in the city he could take Cloud's to but no wait the mum was ther

... pretty sure that WAS Aerith

 

[Morana]

I even read the rather good LTD essay on Lifestream which was good. Though its a debate which seems as needed now as debating whether Padme was into Luke or Anakin. It's quite clear the pairings and AC Complete really emphasizes that. If you've played Crisis Core et al, you can see the intent. If you can see the intent of the law, do you really need to cypher through the legalise? Unless you have ulterior motives of course.

We all know Padme was into Luke. Incest and necrophilia, you say? Not according to my interpretation which is canon.
No, seriously, AC confused me at first but ACC made things quite clear for me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Plus the original FFVII seemed to paint Zack as a bit of a jerk, a relationship with which Aerith was quite unhappy with at the end, Elmyra saying he broke Aerith's heart, the ladies man stuff and Zack saying he had a gf back in the city he could take Cloud's to but no wait the mum was there and really not seeming all that bothered about getting back to Aerith ASAP.

Most of what you brought up I can understand, but not this part. I can even get the "not seeming all that bothered about getting back to Aerith ASAP" bit since Aerith wasn't his sole reason for marching back into the lion's den of Midgar in the original game (that's a retcon from Crisis Core).

It's the "Zack as a bit of a jerk" part I don't understand. He broke Aerith's heart/she was unhappy about the end of their relationship because he disappeared and she didn't know he was imprisoned/dead.

And the ladies' man stuff really isn't a fair strike against him, particularly since it was part of Aerith's rationalization of what had happened to him. She decided that he had left her for someone else, but we, the players, knew that wasn't true. With or without Crisis Core and the rest of the Compilation, we knew that.

Besides, Zack did give his life in looking after Cloud, whom he had drug across the planet with him and whose ass he had probably wiped the whole way.

With that and the revelation that Zack was the bouncy SOLDIER who was excited to get new materia (Sephiroth: "...just like a kid"), he never came off as a jerk. Cloud was the jerk (at first). Zack was a stand-up guy, even in the original game.

(also if I remember right reminisce also featured a number of scenes with Cloud and Aerith during story playback ending with the hand reach/I think I can find her there stuff and the shots of all the characters looking up including Cloud and Aerith opening her eyes from the end of FFVII, so that was happening while the bike/phonecalls/flower field thing was also going on as well, quite a treat for Clerith fans on the whole I don't think it's hard to understand why people might appreciate/wonder about that stuff anyway)

Reminiscence was really short on interaction between Cloud and Aerith. It has her ask him "Excuse me" after mako reactor no. 1 blows up, "Are you okay?" when he wakes up in her flowerbed, "Were you in SOLDIER?" after escaping the church, and then her talking about Zack being the same rank as him.

Other than that, there's no real personal interaction between them featured. Just her talking about the Cetra and/or Meteor -- stuff that even if she's saying it to him isn't really a private exchange between the two of them.

The hand-reach scene from the ending is in there too, true, but it's not really presented as something that should make one wonder. When Cloud's bike is parked by the flower fields (the next bike scene after the shots from FFVII's ending), he's on the phone with Tifa asking her to close the bar so they can take a personal day.

I accept/like both Clerith and Cloti but Zerith just doesn't really do it for me

Zerith did it for me more as it was presented in the original game than with Crisis Core and its related media. This whole "chaste love" thing, the retcon about going back to Midgar for Aerith, her vapid personality in CC -- all of that just fucking steamrolled any care I had for that couple.

 

[Farron]

I don't understand where the original game painted Zack as a bit of a jerk is coming from ??

oooh how DARE you save Cloud's life and risk your own life in jeopardy to help Cloud while he's mako poisoned !

SHAME on you Zack !

And how dare you not be able to be in contact with Aerith because you're stuck in Hojo's lab for many years !

shame on you Zack.

Shame on you.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Please don't misinterpret Zack's character to justify not shipping Zerith.

I don't care what you ship. Just don't make Zack into something he's not. Check your facts before calling him things and describing him to be something terrible. I understand people hating him because he's a carbon copy of Cloud, he's a retcon, or whatever, those are fair opinions. But hating him for stuff that's clearly not what you say it is just isn't right at all. That's not even an opinion, that's blatantly changing the facts of what he is as shown to us.

I don't care if people don't ship Zerith or Cloti or Clerith. As long as they understand the characters clearly, then I'm completely okay with everything else. Don't say you don't ship Zerith because Zack is a womanizer/hurt Aerith/a jerk because that's not how it was. Narrative tells us otherwise. That's like saying you don't ship Cloti because Tifa bullied Cloud when they were kids. Or saying you don't ship Clerith because Cloud loved it when he beat up Aerith.

Don't misinterpret characters to justify not liking the ship. Either say you just don't like it as it is, or don't say anything at all.

Thank you, and goodnight.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Ugh I'm really pissed off now. Guys you can't force me to like and enjoy and see something as the way you did in the OG. That's honestly the way I saw it and I don't deserve to be attacked as twisting things or w/e, the OG honestly didn't paint a good picture of Zerith/Zack to me, that's just the way I saw it, I didn't like the stuff presented. Also I said "kind of a jerk" not a complete and utter jerk who didn't care about anybody, what does the Cloud stuff have to do with anything?, also as noted even when he did get out of Hojo's lab he didn't seem to care or want or be bothered to get back to Aerith ASAP in the OG, that's just how I saw it. Of course I don't have a beef with him for the stuff with Cloud though (put it this way the OG actually painted Clack better for me than Zerith =P) You can't say "please don't misinterpret etc" like I deliberately set out to do so while playing the OG, those were as and when reactions (I don't know where I go around using it to justify my pairing came from either =/) =P I'm sorry but Aerith/etc just didn't paint a very good picture of Zack for me in the OG though again I appreciate the Cloud stuff, and the mockery type post before that was pretty uncalled for I think (I never do that type of things to your pairings or the people here, honestly I appreciate the respect I've received on the whole overall here and I feel I give/do the same for people) I'm actually pretty upset (maybe because I'm due a period and am currently as emotional/hormonal as fuck) but honestly I would have liked to have been able to present my views/opinions/how I felt on the OG here without getting a hard time about it. I thought given my overall time and reasonability here I would have been able to do it.

I might respond to Tres later once I've calmed down since I found his post reasonable/fair enough and he wasn't mocking or giving me a hard time really.

I just

 

[Strangelove]

... pretty sure that WAS Aerith

It was actually multiple girls he was talking about.

The English version only sounds like one person:

Zack
“I know what I'm gonna do.”
Zack
“I got a place I can crash for a while…”
Zack
“No wait, the mother lives there too.”


But the Japanese one talks about a number of girls:

ザックス
「俺はあちこちにあてがあるんだ」
"I've got people I can count all over."

ザックス
「みんなの世話んなって……」
"I'll get everyone to help me out..."

ザックス
「あ、どの女の子も親といっしょに住んでるのか……」
"Oh, does every girl live with their parents..."

Each line specifically highlight that he's talking about multiple people (the bold parts), rather than the single person he is talking about in the English script.

 

[Shademp]

@Hito

MIND. BLOWN. Hito you're the best.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Sorry, Maidenofwar. I didn't know you were the one who posted that until after you reacted. That being said, I wasn't attacking you, obviously, but the post and ideas themselves. It wasn't meant to be a personal attack, or an attack at all. Just defending Zack.

To answer some of your questions:

I don't know where I go around using it to justify my pairing came from either =/

This:

I accept/like both Clerith and Cloti but Zerith just doesn't really do it for me

You said this after saying all that stuff about Zack. That's where it came from. If it wasn't your intention, then I apologize for misreading.

And I meant my post to say the negative Zack stuff was being used to justify the dislike for Zerith, not to justify any other pairing.

what does the Cloud stuff have to do with anything?

Zack was barely even in the OG. And the few moments he had in the OG related to him saving Cloud's life.

Which means the Cloud stuff has everything to do with your assessment of Zack's character in the OG. Because that's pretty much all he did in the OG. We can all count the few times he was even mentioned in the OG, and there isn't enough evidence to show us that Zack or Zerith were bad things. They were victims of circumstance. They couldn't help what tore them apart.

Zack couldn't help that he broke Aerith's heart. He was marinating in Mako and being experimented on for 4 years. I highly doubt Hojo gave him a phone or some paper to message Aerith with.

Aerith was heartbroken in a way that wasn't in Zack's control. Hating Zack for something he didn't even do on purpose is like hating Tifa for not noticing Cloud was blamed for when she went into a coma.

I'm not asking you to like Zerith. Or to like Zack. I'm explaining to you that you saw it wrong. Which is basically what everyone does in the LTD thread. You think Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship? YOU SAW IT WRONG AND THIS IS WHY. You think Cloud and Aerith are having spirit sexy time? YOU SAW IT WRONG AND THIS IS WHY.

Normal LTD stuff. In the LTD thread.

also as noted even when he did get out of Hojo's lab he didn't seem to care or want or be bothered to get back to Aerith ASAP in the OG

Sorry, but how does this make Zerith or Zack bad again?

In the OG, he didn't want to get to Aerith immediately. Okay...? He just escaped 4 years of floating in mako and being tortured. He had a comatose Cloud in his hands. He knows he's being chased and possibly going to be killed anyway. Probably not the best idea to bring the fight to his girlfriend.

But where did he decide to head to anyway? MIDGAR. Oh and, even better THE SLUMS. Just because he didn't tell a comatose Cloud he wanted to see Aerith immediately doesn't mean that wasn't what he was thinking. Crisis Core existed to tell us that was exactly what he was thinking. Anyway, regardless of whether he said it in the OG or not, how does this make Zerith terrible again? I don't understand. Zack did stuff in a perfectly logical manner. How is this a point against him?

Let's not look at all these characters based on only romance. FF7 is not about romance. Zack had plenty of other things to consider. Cloud had plenty of other things to consider. Tifa did too. Aerith did too. Barret, Cid, Vincent, Yuffie, and Nanaki too. The world and the characters don't revolve around who they're in love with. Because if this is the only way we looked at the characters, then a whole lot of the story will be lost on us. So let's not do that.

So what if Zack didn't immediately want to go straight to Aerith after escaping Hojo? I think it was a perfectly logical action, considering all the trouble he's in. But in the end he's still going to Midgar. In the end, he saved Cloud's life.

put it this way the OG whole compilation actually painted Clack better for me than Zerith =P the best out of all the pairings

Fixed that for you.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Ugh I'm really pissed off now. Guys you can't force me to like and enjoy and see something as the way you did in the OG. That's honestly the way I saw it and I don't deserve to be attacked as twisting things or w/e, the OG honestly didn't paint a good picture of Zerith/Zack to me, that's just the way I saw it, I didn't like the stuff presented.

I've seen threads where people "force" or "attack" and all I see here is people correcting you with a modicum of amusement because the reasons you presented didn't stack up objectively, merely subjectively to what you prefer to believe.

Now a thread which is really a question of detail and accuracy - as all debates tend to fall upon - will poke any person of any opinion if the evidence for their belief doesn't weigh in fairly or objectively.

I know its easy to see a thread like this to be about people's opinions, but for a "debate" to work it has to be more than opinions otherwise it's just slush really, skidding and bumbling around each person's preference.

I've always thought of the best way to see the LTD thread is to take out the FF7 and add something serious. "The Earth is Spherical Thread" - in which people debate the facts that prove this. Sure people can weigh in with their preference of the Earth being flat, but better be prepared for anything posed to to support that preference to have to be bloody good.

I think people here were less bothered by the fact you don't like the idea of ZackxAeries, more that your reasons were inaccurate to the character and inadvertently assassinate his attributes - again that goes down to facts.

FF7 and the Compilation are big. Lots of data. If you've missed an angle about a character, that's utterly fine, and very easy to do - there's a lot of stuff to catching in 100 hours of gameplay. So rather than feeling offended people have dissected and corrected some of the notions you present, take them in an re-evaluate whether your dislike of Zack is actually unfair or perhaps unsupported. It's okay to not like something in a story - you don't always need to justify it. Often it's because that aspect interferes with another preference, which is possibly the case here. It's not Zack, but what Zack represents. It sounds, and I could be wrong, you acknowledge that Aeries was into Zack in a big way, though you'd rather - ideally - she was into Cloud in a bigger way, perhaps because you like Cloud more - and thus feel a resentment for the character she likes, who doesn't match who you'd like her to have liked, if that makes sense. In such a scenario, there's nothing wrong in resenting a character for such reasons - as you say, we respond to stories intuitively and come away with our own preferences. The point is your resentment to Zack is perhaps justified unfairly in terms of the data, even if your emotional resentment to Zack is entirely you're own prerogative.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Though its a debate which seems as needed now as debating whether Padme was into Luke or Anakin.

That's not even comparable really. I don't even think that's something that's been debated about really. Padme died a few minutes after giving birth to Luke.
A better Star Wars analogy would be whether Leia was into Luke or Han. I wouldn't be surprised if the years between the release of ESB and RotJ were full of SW fans arguing about this.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

That's not even comparable really. I don't even think that's something that's been debated about really. Padme died a few minutes after giving birth to Luke.

The comparison is relevant depending on what context you take it in. Leia/Luke - original trilogy, Anakin/Padme - prequels. If you read anymore in the comparison bar the farcical nature (given the details of the narrative) you will end up with a headache, so don't go there...

A better Star Wars analogy would be whether Leia was into Luke or Han. I wouldn't be surprised if the years between the release of ESB and RotJ were full of SW fans arguing about this.

Oh, you went there.

If I was to nurture any serious nature to the comparison its the point that Anakin and Padme's storyline is quite divorced from Leia and Luke. While Darth appears in both trilogies, his prequel story stands on its own merits - this is the comparison you can take with Cloud/Zack/Aeris/Tifa; Zack and Aeris have their own tale in the prequel that stands on its own, try and justify a pairing that ignores their own prequel story and you lose insight into the characters. Whether you like the Star Wars prequels or not, they canonically explain a great deal about Darth Vader that you can't ignore in an overall assessment. Same goes for Zack. His story shouldn't be diminished because it suits to ignore it to justify a preferred pairing.

I'll find you some aspirin! But yes, your point has merit if you're looking at a direct LTD comparison in Star Wars.

 

[Farron]

Sorry, Maidenofwar. I didn't know you were the one who posted that until after you reacted. That being said, I wasn't attacking you, obviously, but the post and ideas themselves. It wasn't meant to be a personal attack, or an attack at all. Just defending Zack.

This

Sorry Maidenofwar I too didn't mean to attack you on a personal level. Just was defending Zack.

Hugs you.

Zack couldn't help that he broke Aerith's heart. He was marinating in Mako and being experimented on for 4 years. I highly doubt Hojo gave him a phone or some paper to message Aerith with.

Aerith was heartbroken in a way that wasn't in Zack's control. Hating Zack for something he didn't even do on purpose is like hating Tifa for not noticing Cloud was blamed for when she went into a coma.

I'm not asking you to like Zerith. Or to like Zack. I'm explaining to you that you saw it wrong.


In the OG, he didn't want to get to Aerith immediately. Okay...? He just escaped 4 years of floating in mako and being tortured. He had a comatose Cloud in his hands. He knows he's being chased and possibly going to be killed anyway. Probably not the best idea to bring the fight to his girlfriend.

But where did he decide to head to anyway? MIDGAR. Oh and, even better THE SLUMS. Just because he didn't tell a comatose Cloud he wanted to see Aerith immediately doesn't mean that wasn't what he was thinking. Crisis Core existed to tell us that was exactly what he was thinking. Anyway, regardless of whether he said it in the OG or not, how does this make Zerith terrible again? I don't understand. Zack did stuff in a perfectly logical manner. How is this a point against him?

^ All of this.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Is it true that the translation for Zack is supposed to be "loved by a lot of ladies" rather than "loves a lot of ladies" I dunno what part but my friend mentioned it to me.

Nevermind, I found what I was looking for.

 

[T@ctic]

cloud and tifa were already in love with each other BEFORE aeris died. look at clouds unconscious.

also look at this.

quote CoT
The sin held a role deep in my heart. I wondered if I could live on with these feelings. As Tifa looked away from the sky towards the ground, she was fearful of the future. However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn’t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, “What’s wrong?”

“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

(from lednev from neoseeker.com)

"Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple of FFVII.
quote FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario book
VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

And just to go with that.
quote Tifa's profile Crisis Core Ultimania
Link to the FFVII Series

The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.
quote Cloud's profile FFVII 10th Anv. Ult.
Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past.

Age: 23

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.
..........
The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…
..........
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.
..........
· AC – Edge~Midgar
With the help of his friends, he defeated Bahamut SHIN, which Kadaj’s gang had summoned. He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.
quote Tifa's profile FFVII 10 Anv. Ult.
She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.
..........
I want to see Cloud — Marlene’s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.

Again you can argue the why or the how. But not the who. Cloud loves Tifa. And they are the canon couple of FFVII."

"(FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "


(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."


(CCU, pg. 33)
"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."


(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."


(U20 Scenario, pg. 394)
"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."


And for good measure, everything else that's ever been said about the scene:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 27; complete entry)
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. The next morning, she departs for the Northern Crater along with her companions, who returned.

'Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking......'
-Said to Cloud, when he is at a loss for words while they're alone

If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 39)
"Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together. Woman's intuition is as perceptive as ever, no?"


(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
"Night before the final battle......
After stopping Hojo's recklessness and before heading to the Northern Crater, the conversation scene with Tifa can diverge drastically depending on Tifa's affection rating. When the affection rating is low, the conversation scene where the two spend the evening is candid and rather short. In the scene on the bridge the next morning, Tifa asks 'Were you listening?' and taps her foot. On the other hand, if the affection rating is high, the two spend the evening in focused conversation, and on the bridge, Tifa asks 'Were you watching?' and collapses in embarassment."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 201)
[Screenshot caption]
"Before the final battle......
Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.

[Screenshot caption]
Upon returning to the airship, Yuffie will say 'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?' regardless of the contents of the conversation of Cloud's conversation."

(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)
"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."


(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]


(U20 Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]"

and one of my fave quotes :"FFVII 10th AU, pg. 9; both editions)
(Translation from the frontpage article on this)
Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs)."

why would nojima say "none of us thought it would be something so important" and break out laughing? its entirely obvious its cloudxtifa.

cloud never EVER displayed an act of romantic love towards aeris. in fact in the multiple times he saw her in AC he didnt say anything at all except he wanted to be forgiven.

and if you say "well he didnt display any romantic love to tifa" look at clouds unconscious. everything he did was for her. which is why they are living as a FAMILY in AC. and FYI, cloud wants to be forgiven so he can get back to his FAMILY. its rather silly to say that aeris should be with cloud, and rather selfish, because what about zach? oh you know, clouds BEST FRIEND. why in the world would he steal his BEST FRIENDS girl and leave the girl he has loved every since he was a very small child in the dust?

aeris loves cloud, oh yes i know this is true. but that is because of the zach within him, and its SUPER OBVIOUS at the end of the movie that they are together once again, forever in the lifestream. (while tifa gave cloud the "look" lol)

i hate couples with a white hot passion in the 1st place, but this is one that intrigued me and made me want to say something. i love zachxaeris also. i find it a very sweet couple. a PERFECT couple. a CANON couple. i like them as well as tifa and cloud. but dont make mixups because there shouldnt be any.i dont hate aeris. this isnt what i mean. she just has not and WILL NOT belong with cloud because cloud doesnt love her romantically. she can love cloud all day long but cloud just wont give it.

also i would like to point out that in the game aeris was working on like 90% of the relationship. dragging cloud out on a date, completely bothering and annoying the shizz out of him when she 1st met him, when cloud tried to leave her in a way that wouldnt hurt her too much by leaving in the middle of the night she STILL appeared, then running after tifa to "save her" (WHEN SHE HADNT EVEN MET THE DANG GIRL IN THE FIRST PLACE so it was clear she just wanted to be with cloud) when cloud told her to GO HOME. and when aeris would attempt to say something "romantic" cloud would reply with "........" i mean are claeris fans BLIND or something? the 10% cloud worked on was being her FRIEND. and aeris was trying to drain the zach out of him and when she died she then realized that she was with her lover forever. "dont worry about it. its cool. you just came for me like a true friend. now go with your family, because im with my man. you can heal now." that was the point of the movie.


(from Shishikabob of neoseeker.com)

"“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think.”

Why bring up Love Marriage and Family if Cloud and Tifa aren't in that type of a relationship? And things may have gone better with Aerith, meaning things never happened with Aerith. But they DID happen with Tifa. And no he's not saying "I don't want to get involved in the love triangle debate" while making comments about it. and no he's not saying "Cloud and Tifa have never ending problems" either.

Here's a few more good ones for Tifa:
quote
Since 2 years ago, Tifa has been the only one [Cloud] has opened his heart to. Now, his heart is closed even to her.
If Aerith is so special to him and moreso than Tifa, why is Tifa the only one he opened his heart to?"

C/T FTW.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I honestly can't say I care for copy-pasting huge walls of text/talking points that point out the facts of Cloud and Tifa's relationship any better than I like when BlankBeat does it with CloudxAerith stuff.

This is all the LTD is anymore, isn't it?

 

[Dashell]

(from Shishikabob of neoseeker.com)

lol, that's me actually