The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Who said Cloud and Aerith didn't have mutual feelings? When was that said? Who said it? No one said that. Not me, nor anyone else in this thread.

If I had unlimited time to spend on this, I'd pull numerous quotes from people that have claimed this. I believe (but correct me if I'm wrong) that Ryu has made this claim several times.

However, unlike Cloud and Tifa, they were never expressed nor confirmed with one another. The only thing that's been confirmed is that Cloud and Tifa have mutual romantic feelings. Cloud loves Tifa.

SE has confirmed Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith. Cloud's actions throughout FFVII confirmed Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith. Therefore, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Aerith never confimred mutual feelings because the question revolving around the LTD is simply, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

You hold Cloti to a standard that you don't hold Clerith, which requires a lot more "interpretation" and "imagination" than Cloti, which is simply obvious and there in the original story and the rest of the Compilation.

I only hold Cloti to a higher standard because...

1. People on this site claim that Clot is canon
2. People on this site claim that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, even though there is no evidence of such a relationship after the HAHW scene

Here you've just completely proved my point. I said you ignored the TEXT (i.e. the part that tells us Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings, the only romance mentioned in text on the page, the only part that is actually explicity explained on the page about the main romantic love interest of each protagonist instead of being an offhand reference to another page), and you've misenterpreted it.

So what if Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings? What difference does it make?

The LTD revolves around who does Cloud Strife love. Cloud loves Aerith even though they never confirmed mutual feelings.

 

[Knuxson]

Contrary to popular belief, good stories have conclusions that people can see very easily. With the LTD, the makers have made it uber easy by bookending the story with lots of simply, easy to chew clarification.

This is exactly what I have been trying to get across.

 

[Lex]

Cloud loves Tifa. I said a long time ago I wouldn't respond to posts where you'd just repeated yourself instead of agreeing to disagree or moving on or whatever, so in your style I'm just going to close with this and then bow out:

For the MILLIONTH TIME, people on this site do not claim Cloti is canon. People on this site know that Cloti is canon because they don't avoid the parts of the story that doesn't suit their needs.

In the interest of 100% honesty and transparency, I don't know why you're here. You must know that no one is going to agree with you, you post exclusively in this thread which makes our entire memberbase groan every time it's updated then disappear for like a month then come back with the same tired arguments for a fresh wave of new people to completely disagree with. I just wouldn't see the value in spending all that time on a site debating with evil Clotis.

Until SE release a conclusion to the compilaltion that tells everyone he falls out of love with Tifa, dies, then has spirit sex with Aerith in the Lifestream, Cloti is canon. If the aforementioned should happen, I promise you I'll make all the changes to the front page content myself. Unfortunately, the story is the way it is. I'm sorry you don't like it.

 

[BlankBeat]

Until SE release a conclusion to the compilaltion that tells everyone he falls out of love with Tifa, dies, then has spirit sex with Aerith in the Lifestream, Cloti is canon. If the aforementioned should happen, I promise you I'll make all the changes to the front page content myself. Unfortunately, the story is the way it is. I'm sorry you don't like it.

Even Nomura doesn't agree with what this website is proclaiming. Even Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her.

And yet, SE continues to make Cloud and Aerith Emperor and Empress for some strange reason -- a reason that couldn't possibly relate to how Cloud felt about Aerith during the course of FFVII/AC.

 

[BlankBeat]

Does anyone doubt that if Aerith had lived they would have confirmed mutual feelings?

But the LTD does not revolves around which couple confirms mutual feelings -- the LTD revolves around, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

It is clear that Cloud loved Aerith. Period. Therefore, the answer to the LTD is that both Clerith and Cloti are canon because Cloud loved both women. Even the FTOIL page verifies this assessment.

 

[Knuxson]

Attrition Warfare - a military strategy in which a belligerent side attempts to win a war by wearing down its enemy to the point of collapse.

 

[Danseru-kun]

@BB

So both pairings are canon now? Pages ago, you'd said there's no canon and all up to interpretation. I'll take this new stance of yours at face value.

There you have it folks, Cloti is canon he finally agrees

 

[I Am Not Me]

Since the LTD revolves around Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, it is significant that only Aerith (not Tifa) was able to bring laughter from Cloud. And it's more impressive that Aerith was able to bring out this side of Cloud while he was under Jenova's control.

Also -- Aerith was the only person that made Cloud laugh in Final Fantasy VII (which is what the quote I provided stated).

That isn't definitively romantic.

And you need to update yourself. Since Crisis Core has come out and the movie sequel updated to complement the changes from it, Zack has become an important part of this discussion. Zack has, by all means and purposes, taken on his own role in the LTD since he has been officially made his own character. You might not like it, but he plays an integral part in the LTD especially when we are discussing beyond the OG.

Maybe 15 years ago Zack was a dead nothing NPC. Now Zack had his own story with Aerith and Cloud, and this is a story we can't just ignore just because it doesn't help us prove our ship.

You can't keep on living in the past, man. You have to move on.

Cloti's are saying Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene. Cerltih's aren't claiming that Cloud and Aerith are in a relationship after the HAHW scene. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the side of the Cloti's to prove that Cloud and Tifa turned their mutual feelings into a romantic relationship during AC.

No, actually, Clerith can't have a relationship after the HAHW scene because they don't have a HAHW scene and never had one.

If you believe both pairings are canon, why do we still have to "prove" Cloti to you?

Cloud and Tifa are cohabiting in a place that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar. (Some) Cloti's make it seem as though Cloud and Tifa bought a new house together with a white picket fence. EDIT: Cloud also has his own room with a bed in it.

Oh right. The old Tifa being a stalker and entering Cloud's room at night to ask him questions about love (which also proves Cloud doesn't love her).

Cid and Shera cohabited together in FFVII and we know they had feelings for each other. Yet were they a couple during FFVII?

Then they got married!

None of that is definitively romantic.

I agree.

That is, if you ignore the rest of what the story tells us about Cloud and Tifa. Which you both do and don't.

You can't say you agreed they exchanged mutual feelings (as well as Cloud himself having said he always had feelings for Tifa in the Lifestream sequence, but I know you deliberately ignore that one because it's "dim love" or something and doesn't help you disprove Cloti even more) and then ignore that information just to say these are not definitively romantic, while claiming Cloud laughing with Aerith and being attracted to her physical appearance is a definitive sign of being in love with her. We both know you're smarter than that.

Logic, what happened to thee?

All I'm saying is that what SE has done with Cloud and Aerith, from making them Emperor/Empress, to the FFIX cameo, it is clear that SE views them as a romantic couple in Final Fantasy VII. Why else would SE do those things if they weren't a romantic couple in FFVII?

BB, I would take that FFIX cameo more seriously if it were actually Cloud and Aerith in there. At least Tactics had actual Cloud and a flowergirl that looked like Aerith. FFIX merely had a reference through a soldier that didn't even act like Cloud.

As for Emperor/Empress, I can't even try to take that seriously because it's merchandise and fanservice. It's like that commercial thing people kept trying to argue with. It also means nothing to me because there is no story behind it.

They're Emperor/Empress? Cool. Did you ever think that maybe it's because Cloud and Aerith are the main characters of Final Fantasy VII? Try looking at it without shipping goggles. Go on, try it. Doesn't it seem like SE did this because Cloud and Aerith symbolize the FF7 franchise? Not as a couple but as the iconic main characters? They are fan favorites, whether together or apart.

Also, tell me why SE also keeps referencing the promise between Cloud and Tifa to the point of making a whole story of it in Dissidia Duodecim (I'm only talking about Dissidia, but the promise has been referenced also in BC, CC, ACC, DC--wow in the Compilation itself? It must mean something). Cloud

Spoiler

DIED

in 012. To save Tifa. And only Tifa. They went out of their way to make a story that complemented Cloti's story. Why would they do that if, as you claim, Cloud only works for Tifa for money, lives and raises children with her without loving or caring for her, that SE wants you to think Cloud loves Aerith the most in the world?

It specifically states that Tifa was jealous about the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming together that was "different" than the world she had with Cloud.

Yeah, because she has feelings for Cloud. So?

What's so weird about Tifa feeling jealous of this special bond Cloud and Aerith are building? Tifa's a person, she has feelings too. She can get jealous.

If you're trying to prove romance with this, then I give you:

None of that is definitively romantic.

Edit:

It is clear that Cloud loved Aerith. Period. Therefore, the answer to the LTD is that both Clerith and Cloti are canon because Cloud loved both women. Even the FTOIL page verifies this assessment.

Where did FTOIL say this? In a picture of a date where Cloud never said he loved her or exchanged mutual feelings with her with a caption that said "Cloud can date other people"?

None of that is definitively romantic.

 

[Dashell]

Proven wrong according to a bunch of Cloti's that pretty much regurgitate anything Hawk has written.

Actually a lot of us were debating the same points before he came along. The only thing he did was summarize everything. So he regurgitated what WE said

@BB

So both pairings are canon now? Pages ago, you'd said there's no canon and all up to interpretation. I'll take this new stance of yours at face value.

There you have it folks, Cloti is canon he finally agrees

I think to him saying both are canon or both are up to interpretation are the same point... idk

You'll be intrigued to learn, then, that opinions can be wrong. Even when someone capitalizes the word.

Spoiler: OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH

Even Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her.

Say what?... but you just said they confirmed mutual feelings...

EDIT
ALso what is this:
http://media.tumblr.com/0f8e46975674549a9f1c388837203d96/tumblr_inline_mrwm3irEPS1qz4rgp.jpg

Does this say Zack had a bajillion GFs or something?... there's all this hub bub on tumblr about it but I can't read the text, it's too small >_<
It's something old but for some reason it's being treated as news

 

[I Am Not Me]

Proven wrong according to a bunch of Cloti's that pretty much regurgitate anything Hawk has written.

How original

AW HELL NAW

Tres is cool and all, and once I am legal I will be hitting on him (among others) relentlessly, but I don't need him to tell me what I think about the LTD. I played the games, I read the supplementary materials. I know what I know.

Gurl, I have my own arguments. If you haven't noticed, I am a Clack, so I can obviously draw my own conclusions. It just so happens that most of us agree with each other. Everyone agrees that Clack is canon.

But it must be hard for you, because the only ones you can agree with are yourself and biased shippers who will readily agree that Cloud and Aerith are the heartless asses they are just to disprove Cloti and Zerith. And sometimes you can't even agree with yourself because you keep changing and contradicting your own arguments and beliefs.

Neither couple is canon -> both couple is canon-- even though what you're really saying is -> Clerith only is canon

We don't need to regurgitate Tres' words to have rebuttals for that.

We have all been constant in our arguments, time and time again. Occasionally we will agree with you because why not? We're open-minded. Besides, most of the people here are not even shippers or Clotis, so they tend to look at things objectively. I happen to ship both Cloti and Clerith and my mind is open to arguments favoring Clerith, but I know bull when I see it.

Spoiler

Sometimes people mistake it for cow. That's wrong. This is bull.

Especially if you are trying to argue Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa (and Zack) having such negative traits in order to prove Clerith/disprove Cloti/Zerith.

Spoiler

I will never agree to a Cloud that would rather mope around after a dead woman when he himself said there is nothing he doesn't cherish. I will never agree to a Zack who cheats on Aerith because he never did that. I will never agree to a jealous bitch stalker Tifa when she has never been described as such by her own creators (also because Cloud is more stalker-ish than her). I will never agree to a homewrecking Aerith who will be happy to have Cloud die and leave his family just to be with her. These are terrible characters and I will never agree that SE wrote these characters to be seen like this, especially when the story plainly tells me otherwise.

You try to be constant, we can tell, but what you are being constant in is copy and pasting the same thing over and over again after they have been debunked. You are also constant in not accepting they have been debunked. So forgive everyone if they seem aggressive because they are tired of it all. Give them something new or approach this in a new way, maybe they'll be nicer.

As for me, I am always mean, because your sin is downplaying Zack's importance to Cloud. I don't forgive. I don't forget.

Clack is forever!

PS: I'm also in this thread right now because I can't come to school. The areas around us are flooded. Sort of stranded, but at least we still have internet.

 

[Danseru-kun]

@ Quex

That's just Zack's 10thAU profile that says he's flirtatious. Tell me about how each girlfriend Zack adds to his harem make Cloud love Aerith more

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd like to state that I was correct, this thread DID get dumber.

I will also state that, yes, had Aerith lived, she and Cloud would not have revealed mutual feelings for each other, all other elements remaining the same. Because it would still be Tifa staying with Cloud in Mideel. Still Tifa viewing his core memories- of which she is a key part- and learning of his past and present feelings for her. It would STILL be Tifa who stayed behind while everyone else went to visit family, etc (Aerith would visit her mom). It would still be Tifa to whom Cloud had so much he wanted to say, still her who tells him words aren't the only way.

Cloud was utterly clueless of Aerith's intentions. He might waver, but only for a moment. When it was down to brass tacks and the worst of the worst, it was Tifa Cloud's mind and body returned to, time and again.

 

[Strangelove]

wait wait wait

fans of c/a aren't arguing that they are in a relationship?

so no one ever talked about soul bonding or clandestine meetings in flower fields (while calling tifa to rub it in), that cloud is continually search for a way to meet aerith despite nothing of the sort being shown or mentioned anywhere

i guess i must have imagined all those years

or has the consensus changed now?

i guess that makes sense, since the ultimate question has now changed to one that is vague and open enough for everyone to be able to win the game

EDIT
ALso what is this:
http://media.tumblr.com/0f8e46975674549a9f1c388837203d96/tumblr_inline_mrwm3irEPS1qz4rgp.jpg

Does this say Zack had a bajillion GFs or something?... there's all this hub bub on tumblr about it but I can't read the text, it's too small >_<
It's something old but for some reason it's being treated as news

There is a problem sometimes when words are taken from one language and transplanted into another, as sometimes the meaning and nuance can change.

When Japanese people use &#12460;&#12540;&#12523;&#12501;&#12524;&#12531;&#12489; (the English word), it's normally in the sense of a male's female friend. This makes it confusing for English speakers learning the language because it is easy to think of the English meaning (I know I have in the past), and potentially embarrassing for the Japanese native speaker who says they have 'lots of girlfriends' in English not realising the difference. While there is a limited potential for it being used romantically as it is in English, the general usage seems more to be friends.

&#12460;&#12540;&#12523;&#12501;&#12524;&#12531;&#12489; was also used in Zack's letter to his parents, but the Ultimania mentions the fact that this one (who is obviously Aerith because why put that in if it isn't related to the story and is just about some random floozy?) must have been special because he went to the effort of writing home and telling his parents about her.

 

[eleamaya]

I will also state that, yes, had Aerith lived, she and Cloud would not have revealed mutual feelings for each other, all other elements remaining the same. Because it would still be Tifa staying with Cloud in Mideel. Still Tifa viewing his core memories- of which she is a key part- and learning of his past and present feelings for her. It would STILL be Tifa who stayed behind while everyone else went to visit family, etc (Aerith would visit her mom). It would still be Tifa to whom Cloud had so much he wanted to say, still her who tells him words aren't the only way.

Don't forget, Ryu, Cloud also would tell Aerith about Zack after he gain his true memories (since he knew Aerith had ever stated Zack was her first love and she never get to know about his news).

 

[I Am Not Me]

Don't forget, Ryu, Cloud also would tell Aerith about Zack after he gain his true memories (since he knew Aerith had ever stated Zack was her first love and she never get to know about his news).

That's a good point, fellow Zack-defender.

Zack did tell Cloud during his death scene to "say hi" to Aerith. No, he didn't tell Cloud to have babies with Aerith in his absence. He told Cloud to say hi to her. Maybe with the implication that he's saying hi from the afterlife.

And Cloud, being the nice guy he is, who cherishes his friends and family so much that he became the mess we saw in Advent Children, would pass on Zack's message instead of trying to take advantage of Aerith as a rebound. That's the Cloud I know anyway. Not sure how other people view Cloud.

I think even if Cloud did have feelings for Aerith, regaining his memories of what happened before meeting her, of how Zack died saving his life, it would be a hindrance to a budding relationship between them. Disc 1 Cloud wouldn't have a problem having a relationship with Aerith, but real Cloud, with his actual memories, would feel guilty about taking his friend's girlfriend just like that. Not to mention his dedication to fulfill his promise to Tifa. Can you imagine?

Regardless of whether or not Aerith was serious about Zack, it doesn't change the fact that she did have feelings for Zack, and that they never had complete closure. In both Cloud's and Aerith's hearts the memory of Zack will linger, and I think it would be a factor between them if they ever pursue a relationship with each other. Especially for Cloud, who is prone to feeling guilty for a variety of sins he shouldn't even guilty of. How do you think he will feel while having sexy time with Aerith, with his memory of Zack and his death, telling him to say hi to Aerith, in the back of his head all the time?

Clotis ignore Barret, eh? Who are the ones who ignore Zack and remembers him only to make him look bad or use him as a leverage for their ship? I always remember Zack because he's part of my ship, by the way.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Guys, I think we should all just take a cue from Tres. Let's just... not talk to BB anymore. Let him rant and rave and then c/p those rants and ravings back to himself forever if he so desires, but he can do it alone. Meanwhile we'll hang out somewhere more sane until someone who can post without cherry picking, quote mining, and so on down the list of dishonest bullshit and logical fallacy comes along. Then we'll give them a try. Because seriously, BB has had plenty of chances to knock all that shit off and he's tossed them all without a second look. Why would we even WANT to respond to that?

Edit: Also, I love the crap out of everyone else in here, especially Tres, Q, and Mei-chan. If there is a reason to pay attention to BlankBeat, its so I can read your hilariously apt responses.

 

[Geostigma]

Proven wrong according to a bunch of Cloti's that pretty much regurgitate anything Hawk has written.

How original

I dont even like FF7 or FF as a whole that much anymore. I could really care less what 3 different poorly made 3d models may or may not like.

What I do like is common sense and logic. Which you seem to lack completely.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Guys, I think we should all just take a cue from Tres. Let's just... not talk to BB anymore. Let him rant and rave and then c/p those rants and ravings back to himself forever if he so desires, but he can do it alone. Meanwhile we'll hang out somewhere more sane until someone who can post without cherry picking, quote mining, and so on down the list of dishonest bullshit and logical fallacy comes along. Then we'll give them a try. Because seriously, BB has had plenty of chances to knock all that shit off and he's tossed them all without a second look. Why would we even WANT to respond to that?

Mostly because I'm bored.

I'll stop now then. I might be gone again tomorrow because of classes anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. But I like randomly popping in this thread and seeing "new things" to respond to.

Edit:

Edit: Also, I love the crap out of everyone else in here, especially Tres, Q, and Mei-chan. If there is a reason to pay attention to BlankBeat, its so I can read your hilariously apt responses.

Aw, I love the carp out of you too!

We have now just exchanged mutual feelings. That doesn't mean we're in a relationship though. But we should totally start living together and raise some kids.

 

[Lex]

I've certainly said everything I wanted to say. I just wish people would stop coming here thinking we've all got some kind of hive-mind and aren't capable of thinking for ourselves. I believe that was proven when I was held accountable for apparently thinking Cloud and Aerith never had mutual feelings, which isn't something I've ever said or even thought. It's that kind of thing I really want to stop.

There will come a day when this thread is closed and we'll have a party, but it is not this day (why is it still open again?).

 

[Geostigma]

I've certainly said everything I wanted to say. I just wish people would stop coming here thinking we've all got some kind of hive-mind and aren't capable of thinking for ourselves. I believe that was proven when I was held accountable for apparently thinking Cloud and Aerith never had mutual feelings, which isn't something I've ever said or even thought. It's that kind of thing I really want to stop.

There will come a day when this thread is closed and we'll have a party, but it is not this day (why is it still open again?).

"They disagree with me? There all obviously Cloti scum!"

I dont get why its still open either. There wont be any new developments since its a pretty much closed case as far as SE is confirmed anyway

The only purpose it serves is to be a home for our facepalm macros.

 

[Octo]

It's 'open' like an open wound with all gangrene and shit in it. We have to amputate before it kills us all!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Really, it stays open only because this site doesn't fear open, honest debate. Whether that's what this thread gets is another matter, though.

Tres is cool and all, and once I am legal I will be hitting on him (among others) relentlessly ...

Why wait?

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Does anyone doubt that if Aerith had lived they would have confirmed mutual feelings?

This is the nub of your error. Who cares. If you have the urge to project to this extent, you're probably not objective enough to be arguing legitimately on the actual story. Will Cloud and Tifa have babies if there was another story? Who cares. Would Cloud be likely to breakdown again? Who cares. It's meaningless. Fiction is malleable, anything can happen, because it's not real. So you can't "doubt" anything beyond what you know.

But the LTD does not revolves around which couple confirms mutual feelings -- the LTD revolves around, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

Sadly the LTD is an excuse for people to declare "who do I want Cloud to love?" - and those people pick and nuance to prove it. The LTD for you is different to the LTD for me. The LTD for you is "who do I want Cloud to love" - and too many people of this ilk have clouded the truth nature of the narrative with ridiculous literature and cherry picking. I stand on the grounds that the LTD is about clarifying who Cloud loved, so people who enjoyed the game and are confused (as it is a complex game) or haven't read all the literature can get a concise and objective answer. That's what I see the LTD to be about; debunking the myths. If the game had left Cloud in Aeris' arms and people were confused, I'd be here to clarify that against any rabid Cloti.

It becomes strawman because its safe to try and debunk neutrals because they say what you don't want to hear, and worst of all, they don't claim to be like you: wanting to prove their preference is true. They just want to clarify what's true. Shippers hate that and naturally rush to demean that position as biased because otherwise those people are really. really. dangerous to their personal desires.

It is clear that Cloud loved Aerith. Period. Therefore, the answer to the LTD is that both Clerith and Cloti are canon because Cloud loved both women. Even the FTOIL page verifies this assessment.

I think the sad thing here is your desire to prove a ignitable love, rooted in kinship and sexuality actually does Cloud's character - and the writers an utter disservice. Cloud isn't about love. That's totally not what the character is about. It's perhaps a point where I might differ from Cloti. Tifa is VERY important to the character, so is Aeris, but Cloud to the audience isn't a romantic character, he's a lonely one. He's a man who finds it hard to make connections. Cloud's story is about guilt and failure. Those are the motivators for Cloud Strife. That guilt and failure manifests in different ways. He doesn't give himself easily but takes on the burdens of others with great ease. To get over fixated on scales of one to ten how much he wuvs X or wuvs Y loses the entire journey of the character. It's why Advent Children is not really about how he personally feels about either, it's about how he's unable to connect with anyone - living or dead.

Soon as you start trying to scale up how much affection he has for characters to reach your desired love quota you circumnavigate his core story. That's a great shame as that core brittle personality is what makes Cloud so fascinating.

Like I said, I follow stories by the story not by cutting out little snippets of texts to proof what I want to believe (though I have ended having to read them to assess alternative perspectives in this topic). From what I see, and how the story treads, I don't see anything that suggests definitively that Cloud Strife was in Love with Aeries. From Crisis Core, FF7, Advent Children and its sub-stories, it seems to me Cloud's real affections are to one person but he's too brittle and introverted (as many classic Japanese heroes are) to really be able to embrace them. Does he love Aeris, I don't know. His mind wasn't in the right place when he was with Aeris. I'm not sure you can truly love anyone when you're not in a good state of mind, period. I'd say that during Advent Children, he is unable to love anyone because he is again, so brittle. Love comes from a state of balance. You have to feel good for yourself before you can love others, which is why he can leave his family in AC, and its why so many loving parents can commit suicide when they are surrounded by loving families - you can't love probably until you're in a position to do so. Cloud never knew Aeris when he was balanced - I don't think he could love Tifa during Advent Children for the same reason.

I think like all the FF7 characters his addled brain didn't stop him from loving her as a friend, and neither would it stop him from being attracted to her, but I think "love" is too strong an emotion for Cloud to have in that time of FF7.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If this thread still serves any purpose, it's Mei-chan coming in and posting when she can and thus making me laugh. We seriously need someone with something different to say on the pink side of the issue, if such a creature exists. Something different enough to at least be worth a laugh and some gentle mockery, as opposed to "hey, we've called bullshit on this before only now it smells worse!"

 

[Knuxson]

Really, it stays open only because this site doesn't fear open, honest debate. Whether that's what this thread gets is another matter, though.

I view this thread as a place to talk about Cloud's relationship to each of the female leads because, LTD or not, it is an interesting dynamic. However, I am afraid I was naive in thinking I could have a productive discussion with BB. I didn't necessarily think I would change BB's mind, but I attempted to at least steer BB into maybe looking at the issue from a different perspective. However, I can only chase someone's logic in circles for so long before it becomes tiresome and I give up.