The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
Blankbeat said:
As I've said multiple times: the LTD revolves around the question, "Who does Cloud Strife love?" Therefore, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings. It is obvious that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, therefore both parings are canon. I don't see why this website makes the claim that Cloti is canon simply because Cloud and Tifa EXPRESS mutual feelings. Expressing mutual feelings does not necessarily mean a romantic relationship began between Cloud and Tifa (according to Nomura) and the question isn't which couple is in a relationship or which couple expressed mutual feelings, the question is who does Cloud love. Cloud can still love Aerith even if they did not express mutual feelings. And Cloud can still love Aerith even if he's in a relationship with Tifa.

So in one paragraph you

  • Admitted that Cloud loves Tifa and Aerith
  • Admitted that Cloti and Clerith is canon
  • Then say you have a problem with this site publishing an article proving that Cloti is canon
  • Because mutual feelings being expressed doesn't make one pairing canon (even if you just admitted that Cloud loves Tifa too srsly?)
So what's you're problem!? You agreed that Cloti is canon, we think Cloti is canon but then you refuse to accept Cloti evidences. That's why everyone is frustrated with you. We guys simply follow the line of reasoning: Cloti evidences -> Cloud and Tifa love each other = mutual feelings

However you repeatedly use unsupported anti-Cloti assumptions, horrendous double standards, fallacies in general and "your opinion and mine" mechanism to reject Cloti arguments and support Clerith assumptions all the while admitting both pairings are canon and Cloud loves both. That's why people here get's so frustrated.

You then made the comment saying people here just regurgitate everything Tres wrote whoah WHOAH. I have around 45 Cloti articles in tumblr and that is at least ten times longer than what Tres wrote what the heck.

Nah I've wasted my time again
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.” ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

The HAHW scene does not give Nomura any clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship two years after FFVII ended. Therefore, the HAHW scene is irrelevant in proving Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.
We just went over this a page ago, it says he doesn't care.. and you replied about him not caring and then when I said it makes sense you went back to the "doesn't know" argument... come on...


Strangelove said in THIS post:

The words used by Nomura can also be used to mean that he doesn't care about it, which ties in with what he had just moments ago in the same quote ("I don't care about who is dating who"). I'm sure this was brought up for you before. Is this a case of taking one translation over another because it suits you better regardless of accuracy? (I see the 'engraved in his heart' version of that DC manual quote is in your sig and not the one official released by Square Enix that is actually correct.)


You replied HERE with:
But if the HAHW scene is somehow proof-positive that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, it really wouldn't make sense for Nomura to say he doesn't care if the answer was already determined by the HAHW scene.
Acknowledging Hitos' translation

To which I SAID:
Yeah it would, if he doesn't care about that stuff he doesn't care

And now you've gone back to "doesn't know" completely disregarding what we were talking about. That is really annoying. I'm talking about him saying he doesn't care. Stop switching translations that suit you. And Aerith is NOT engraved in Cloud's heart... he'll never forget her. That's what the phrase means...


Now are you going to respond to my post or switch up arguments again? And don't reply with "Well so and so didn't respond to THIS!"... I want you to answer my post.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
  • Admitted that Cloud loves Tifa and Aerith
  • Admitted that Cloti and Clerith is canon
  • Then say you have a problem with this site publishing an article proving that Cloti is canon
  • Because mutual feelings being expressed doesn't make one pairing canon (even if you just admitted that Cloud loves Tifa too srsly?)
So what's you're problem!? You agreed that Cloti is canon, we think Cloti is canon but then you refuse to accept Cloti evidences. That's why everyone is frustrated with you. We guys simply follow the line of reasoning: Cloti evidences -> Cloud and Tifa love each other = mutual feelings
Because this site is claiming that only Cloti is canon. But since the question is, "Who does Cloud Strife love?" -- I believe it is clear that he also loves Aerith. Therefore, this site should say that both pairings are canon.

--------------------

Quexinos,

My point is that EVEN IF we accept the "he doesn't care" translation, it doesn't make sense that he would say he doesn't care if the HAHW scene unequivocally proved they were in a relationship.

Nomura saying he doesn't care implies that there are two sides to the argument. Him expressing disinterest in the debate gives validity that there are, in-fact, two points of view. But if the HAHW scene was meant to canonize Cloud x Tifa, I don't think he would say he doesn't care about the debate. He would simply say there is no debate because the HAHW scene was meant to canonize Cloud x Tifa.
 

Lex

Administrator
There is absolutely nothing in the original game, the titles in the compilation, or the metatext that indicates that Cloud and Aerith are or were at any point a couple. Until there is, the site will reflect that.

tumblr_m7yf6tmogf1qcq7id.gif
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
Because this site is claiming that only Cloti is canon. But since the question is, "Who does Cloud Strife love?" -- I believe it is clear that he also loves Aerith. Therefore, this site should say that both pairings are canon.

You ignored my fundamental question: Why are you using anti-Cloti arguments then to prove Clerith is canon?
 

Rhapsody

Actually Shroudedg
Strangelove:
(No one, in years, has seemed to be able to answer why the creators decided that Tifa should go along with Cloud to meet his love. She is listening to the man she loves say he wants to be with someone else, and her reply? "I want to come along with you, let's go meet Aerith." In what world does this make sense?)
Let's be frank. People have. You're unwilling to accept any of them, however, because those possible answers contradict the idea that Cloud loves Tifa. No shame in admitting that. It makes complete sense if Tifa is supportive of Cloud's wish. It makes perfect sense for Tifa to be saying she would stand by the man she loves, even if it means he loves someone else. That's certainly one explanation. Another? Tifa has shown jealousy at various points in the game. It could simply be that she's letting her peevish side show again. See how any of these answers might work?

I think, the most important thing here, however, isn't Tia's reaction. It's Cloud's statement regarding his ultimate happiness and tying that with meeting/finding Aerith again. He makes it quite personal by suggesting that he, by himself, wants to find Aerith. It's quite an honor for Aerith, considering if she were merely a friend. One would think he would associate his Promised Land with the woman he loves rather than just with a mere friend.

That doesn't say anything about Cloud's feelings, just Tifa's perception of things.
What bothers me quite a bit about this type of answer is how Tifa's character is portrayed by one side of the fandom. In other words, people don't care what this makes her character look like as long as CloudXTifa isn't proven wrong. You're implying here that Tifa has terrible perception(and this would be very true if Cloud indeed does love her and not Aerith). You're implying that Tifa(who Cloud already confessed romantic feelings to, supposedly) is so unreasonable as to be that insecure over some dead woman Cloud supposedly has no romantic feelings for? So she doesn't have reasons to be concerned at all. She's just, what, extremely unreasonable, temperamental, and dramatic?

Tifa was called the "~~koibito~~" of someone by Nomura, and no one with any common sense would suggest that Tifa would be in a serious romantic relationship with anyone but Cloud.
Actually, I have to agree Tifa would indeed be the koibito of Cloud...if she were one. What I don't agree with is the idea that Nomura was saying Tifa *has to be* a koibito. There are many dimensions to her character, after all: someone who is like a mother, an ally in battle, and a koibito. At no point did Nomura ever specify she must be a koibito.

(Apart from 'Knight #7' and a flowergirl, there isn't anything to suggest that Weimar is a reference to Cloud since his personality is nothing like Cloud's.)
Not that I believe this absolutely proves there is something going on between Cloud and Aerith....but, really, you're not going to tell me this isn't a homage to Cloud/Aerith/FFVII after you just directed a statement regarding common sense at Blankbeat, right?

(Why doesn't anyone acknowledge the ku canon coupling of Zack and Tifa!)
...perhaps because two people wearing school uniforms aren't necessarily a pairing?

@everyone:
Just for the record...and forgive me and my laziness, how does Nomura saying he "has no clue" equivalent to "I don't care" again? Is there some kind of a twist to this particular translation?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
My point is that EVEN IF we accept the "he doesn't care" translation, it doesn't make sense that he would say he doesn't care if the HAHW scene unequivocally proved they were in a relationship.
Explain how though... if you asked me if the sky was blue and I said "I don't care" does that mean the sky isn't blue? Or that there's nor proof the sky IS blue?

Actually, I have to agree Tifa would indeed be the koibito of Cloud...if she were one. What I don't agree with is the idea that Nomura was saying Tifa *has to be* a koibito. There are many dimensions to her character, after all: someone who is like a mother, an ally in battle, and a koibito. At no point did Nomura ever specify she must be a koibito.
I'd Agree if this wasn't only an English LTD problem. No one in Japan has ever made the "Like a" argument. And basically you're saying that Tifa IS LIKE those things, but not those things right?... so she's only LIKE an ally in battle?... she isn't one?... is that right?


(and further more, could you please explain to me what part of Tifa makes her LIKE a koibito? but not one?)

i hate how I'm using this stupid LTD to get my mind off shit :(
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Oh god. It makes perfect sense that he doesnt care. I dont care that the Royal baby is named George, it still IS though.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
There is absolutely nothing in the original game, the titles in the compilation, or the metatext that indicates that Cloud and Aerith are or were at any point a couple. Until there is, the site will reflect that.

tumblr_m7yf6tmogf1qcq7id.gif
...but the LTD doesn't revolve around who is a couple. It revolves around who does Cloud love. He loves both.

The "wavers" quote alone proves Cloud and Aerith had something more than just a friendship.

--------------------

Rhapsody said:
It's Cloud's statement regarding his ultimate happiness and tying that with meeting/finding Aerith again. He makes it quite personal by suggesting that he, by himself, wants to find Aerith. It's quite an honor for Aerith, considering if she were merely a friend. One would think he would associate his Promised Land with the woman he loves rather than just with a mere friend.
THIS.

Aerith was the only one able to bring out the real Cloud during a time when he was under Jenova's control. When around Aerith, he laughed and started to show he actually can and does care for other people. According to SE, Cloud and Aerith share a "special bond". This "special bond" is confirmed by Cloud's desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

The fact that Cloud is associating his supreme place of happiness with Aerith suggests something highly romantic between them.

Rhapsody said:
What bothers me quite a bit about this type of answer is how Tifa's character is portrayed by one side of the fandom. In other words, people don't care what this makes her character look like as long as CloudXTifa isn't proven wrong. You're implying here that Tifa has terrible perception(and this would be very true if Cloud indeed does love her and not Aerith). You're implying that Tifa(who Cloud already confessed romantic feelings to, supposedly) is so unreasonable as to be that insecure over some dead woman Cloud supposedly has no romantic feelings for? So she doesn't have reasons to be concerned at all. She's just, what, extremely unreasonable, temperamental, and dramatic?
Yep.

Tifa sees what us Clerith's have been arguing forever -- that Cloud romantically likes Aerith.

And I, too, always wondered why people think Tifa has horrible perception skills. It's almost as though they are calling her an emotional woman who is void of all logic.

Rhapsody said:
Not that I believe this absolutely proves there is something going on between Cloud and Aerith....but, really, you're not going to tell me this isn't a homage to Cloud/Aerith/FFVII after you just directed a statement regarding common sense at Blankbeat, right?
The FFIX cameo of Cloud and Aerith tell us that SE views them as a romantic couple.

Rhapsody said:
...perhaps because two people wearing school uniforms aren't necessarily a pairing?
Exactly.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
And why... that post that I made?

..perhaps because two people wearing school uniforms aren't necessarily a pairing?

Exactly.
Well let's be fair here, there's been much less evidence to prove one pairing is intended . I remember something about pop cans being next to each other and matching bases for toys or something...?... it's not that far of a stretch to think in the LTD that two people wearing the same clothes is evidence of them being a pairing...

Not that I think it really IS Fack evidence but
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I'm unclear about what you are referencing. Please give me some examples and I'd be happy to respond.

...and I thought you were done debating with me?

I believe she means like when you say "Cloud only wanted to rescue Tifa for money" and such
 

Rhapsody

Actually Shroudedg
Quexinos:
I'd Agree if this wasn't only an English LTD problem. No one in Japan has evern made the "Like a" argument. And basically you're saying that Tifa IS LIKE those things, but not those things right?... so she's only LIKE an ally in battle?... she isn't one?... is that right?
What I'm saying has nothing to do with the phrase "like a". What I'm saying has everything to do with the phrase "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character". In other words, we're being told that she isn't just one thing. At the same time, that doesn't mean either that she must be all of those things.

Someone named Octo:
It makes perfect sense that he doesnt care.
Oh, I get that it makes sense to you. What I don't get is how "I have no clue" = "I don't care"...because it doesn't, not in the world of English.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
What I'm saying has nothing to do with the phrase "like a". What I'm saying has everything to do with the phrase "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character". In other words, we're being told that she isn't just one thing. At the same time, that doesn't mean either that she must be all of those things.
I guess I'm a little confused... are you saying she isn't a koibito at all?... why would Nomura mention it then? ...

Oh, I get that it makes sense to you. What I don't get is how "I have no clue" = "I don't care"...because it doesn't, not in the world of English.
The phrase Nomura used here can mean either I don't know or I don't care in Japanese. In b4 translation wars :monster:
 

OniRaitei

Lv. 25 Adventurer
...but the LTD doesn't revolve around who is a couple. It revolves around who does Cloud love. He loves both.
Even if he loves both of them, loving + coupling (C/T) trumps just loving (C/A). It seems you want everyone on this site who disagrees with you to settle for the middle ground even when they have the upper hand.

@everyone:
Just for the record...and forgive me and my laziness, how does Nomura saying he "has no clue" equivalent to "I don't care" again? Is there some kind of a twist to this particular translation?
Quexinos:
Someone named Octo:
Oh, I get that it makes sense to you. What I don't get is how "I have no clue" = "I don't care"...because it doesn't, not in the world of English.

It isn't an issue about translation. In the interview, Nomura said he doesn't care about who is with whom. Then he went on to say he doesn't know about it either. His not knowing is a by-product of his not caring.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
As I've said multiple times: the LTD revolves around the question, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"
This is just something you've decided arbitrarily. I think, to a reasonable people, if you were to be discussing a love triangle you would be looking to find out how it ends.

Therefore, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings. It is obvious that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, therefore both parings are canon. I don't see why this website makes the claim that Cloti is canon simply because Cloud and Tifa EXPRESS mutual feelings.
Because some people here (because no everyone cares) looked at the big picture and drew that conclusion.

I'm only agreeing with Nomura -- expressing mutual feelings does not necessarily mean a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa.
No, you're putting words in Nomura's mouth (like you rewrote quotes from the game to suit what you want it to say). He said he doesn't care about romantic relationships because characters. It was two sentences above the quote you tried to use. (But I understand not knowing, since all people do is take one little line from something and spread it around then mislabel it.)


Typically, romantic relationships begin with physical attraction and a butterfly feeling. So my point is that Cloud finding Aerith physically attractive and leaving their initial meeting with a, "mysterious feeling", lays the foundation for a romantic relationship between them.
I don't disagree with Cloud being attracted to Aerith. I just don't agree that it got a chance to lead anywhere (no searching flower fields for Aerith physically manifesting and no soul bonding or anything like that).

Furthermore, given that Cloud "wavers" between Aerith and Tifa, it is clear that the "special bond" Cloud and Aerith have is romantic in nature. In addition, the "special bond" Cloud develops with Aerith is compared directly to Tifa's bond with Cloud (ie: Cloud's other love interest). Seriously...why would SE have Tifa (Cloud's other love interest) show jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's "special bond"?
Why would you write this reply to my post? I agreed with this.


To me, the point of including the flashback was to show that although Cloud was not interested in having an older girlfriend in the past, with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud may start to feel differently. It was an obvious juxtaposition between the past and present.
It doesn't really indicate that there has been a change.

But to illustrate my point, in my opinion you can read the passage in OtWtaS where Cloud answers Tifa's question about loving Marlene but not knowing how to relate to her as referring to his relationship with Tifa as well. That would be subtext (if you can be subtext when Tifa directly brings up their relationship afterwards). That makes stories more interesting.

But I've seen that scene taken as plain old rejection because Cloud doesn't speak or something.



How does that moment *NOT* put romantic relationships at the forefront of the story?
And I'd argue that it is very intimate. Them sitting together, side-by-side.
It lasts seconds and is then put aside for the Wallmarket side quest. Forefront? That makes it sound like it takes a major focus at that point. It doesn't, and a lot of it was about Zack. Aerith was about to leave at that point, without sounding like she thought she would meet Cloud again (she said it was nice to meet him, no 'see you soon' or even a request to). If it hadn't have been for Tifa appearing she would have gone home and Cloud would have gone to Seventh Heaven. That's not something that sounds like the 'forefront of the story'. It might bring it up, but it's not at the forefront when the next part of the story immediately following involves going to rescue Tifa and then stop the plate from being dropped on sector 7.

You'd argue it is intimate, of course. But that's your spin on it, in your list that's meant to be hard cold fact. Again, it's your choice of words to put things in a light that suits what you want it mean.

During the first bombing mission, Cloud acts very disinterested in everything but himself. Until Aerith is introduced, Cloud seems very selfish, self-centered, and cold. The fact that Barret observes a change in Cloud's behavior after Aerith is introduced is significant, IMO. It is also worth noting that SE decided to draw attention to this change in Cloud through Barret.
That doesn't mean Cloud changed. Barret re-evaluated his take on Cloud.

Again, you also changed the wording to suit your needs. He said that Cloud will sometimes 'fight for other people'. That isn't the same as 'Aerith is the first person he cared about'. Is it really so difficult to just use the words that were actually used? That's usually a good way to back up things like this.

The fact that Aerith was able to evoke this behavior while Cloud was under Jenova's control makes it all the more significant. But I agree with you, Cloud is caring person who is willing to risk his life to save others. That's why Aerith and Cloud's bond is so special -- she was the only one able to show us the 'real' Cloud at a time when he was under Jenova's control.
Priscilla happened during that point as well.

Huh? I simply said that Cloud said he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon. You are the one who is twisting MY words.
Okay, clearly you don't pick up on when things are being exaggerated. But that's not what Cloud says.

“But I'm…we're here for you, right?”

That's the line in the game. But you took that and made it into "I will always be there for you" instead. Because it sounds better for your purpose. You twisted the game's dialogue into something else.

But Cloud agreed to go on this date when he first met Aerith. That, by itself, shows romantic attraction.
They go on a date. Where Cloud makes no statement of any kind about his feelings for Aerith. The date itself (in any version) wasn't showing much romantic intention from Cloud.

The argument about Cait Sith’s prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is.
You're doing it again. You're replying to something with a completely unrelated tangent. It's like you had an answer all written out before and are just posting it without bothering to think if it applies here. (I don't know if you are copy-pasting this from somewhere.)

It's not about Cait Sith being unreliable, that's not what I was talking about. It's about the 'wedding prediction' translation being faulty. Why did you think I brought translations to the forefront of the discussion?

クラウドとエアリスの結婚式を期待するようなケット・シーのセリフが、ますますせつなさをかき立てる。
That doesn't say he 'predicts' a wedding. It says his dialogue seems to expect or hope for Cloud and Aerith's wedding.

クラウドとエアリスの結婚式 - wedding ceremony of Cloud and Aerith
~を期待する - to expect/hope for ~

That's not a prediction. It doesn't say prediction at all. That's what I was talking about. You're calling it a 'prediction' when it doesn't say that in the original text.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, “You will have a bright future full of many happy times!” — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth.
It doesn't have that effect the way it is? The point is that he says things will be wonderful for them, but then Aerith dies and Cloud loses his mind.

So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth.
Right.

Sooooo? It's still not called a 'prediction', and that future never happens.

Unless, as the Ultimania says but no one ever quotes, you take 'future' from a different angle you might find some hope in it. (The Japanese line is 「エアリスさんの星とクラウドさんの星! すてきな未来が約束されてます!」 which you could read two ways: Aerith's star and Cloud's star promise them a great future; or that Aerith and Cloud's 'star' [the planet] is promised a great future.)


One of the biggest reasons Aerith’s death is so sad is because she wasn’t just a friend to Cloud.
That sounds horribly dismissive as to how much a mere 'friend' can mean to people.

Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game.
What they wanted you to think. Not what eventually happens.

Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world.
And you lost me again.

Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?
Because you're using a translation from someone who said that Cait Sith predicted the future with 'tickets' and had the Ultimania writers write that his name isn't 'Dotty'--which no one, ever, anywhere ever said.

Cloud says he HE thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Tifa inserts herself, and Cloud never agrees with Tifa that she should go too. Cloud is associating his place of supreme happiness with Aerith.
The bigger picture. Look at it.

This is a work of fiction. Someone had to create every part of it, and usually for a reason.

This is the end of this particular work of fiction. The end. There were no sequels back then, this was it. The story's final.

So in the final climactic moments of the story, they have Cloud state his intention to be with his true love...... and Tifa decides to tag along. No, not Tifa. The people writing it decided that the way to end this love story was to have the other woman invite herself along. No comment or objection from Cloud. Nothing.

That is awful writing. Where you are meant to bring things to a close, you have just made a pig's ear of the whole thing. It makes absolutely no sense. Is this meant to be a tragic end for Tifa? Can you honestly look at what you just wrote and think it sounds write? That the closure of Tifa's story is that she is a pathetic character clinging on to Cloud even as he reveals his desire to go to another woman? Having you actually given the notion you're pushing any thought at all?

(And what is your point for saying Cloud wants to see Aerith in his place of supreme happiness? Does that not mean that he 'chooses' Aerith? How does that jell with your statement that both couples are canon? They are both canon but he picks one over the other?)

Tifa's jealously gives us insight into the reasons Cloud may be visiting Aerith's Church.
It might. But it's still only from Tifa's perspective, not Cloud's. Not about who Cloud loves. All we get from Cloud is 'I can't protect anyone, I let you die, I want to be forgiven'.

Go check. Those are the actual lines actually used in the actual film that actually exists. I didn't rewrite them or anything.

Actually, Nomura and other sources have said what his problem was. It was that he was happy with his life, but grew to fear that he would lose it. That's why he left.

LTD question: Who does Cloud love?
SE provides "koibito" quotes for both pairings. Both pairings are canon.
Do you know the meaning and usage of 'koibito'? Not the LTD one, the real one.

It refers to the other person. When used in OtWtaS, it was from the woman to Cloud. In Nomura's quote, it from someone unspecified to Tifa. That means it's someone's feelings of love for Tifa.

(Hint: It's Cloud. Because Rude/Johnny/random barflies/'she's just a really nice person!' don't make sense.)

Anyone who denies that the FFIX cameo of Cloud x Aerith is not romantic is seriously denying common sense. Not even worth a rebuttal.
Common sense, of course, from the one who just suggested that Square ended FFVII with Tifa being a creepy stalker who butts her way into Cloud's romantic adventures.

The Ultimania Omega mentions that the 'Ancient's Key' is an item in FFXI. It tells you that there is a little picture of Cloud and Aerith in one of Parasite Eve's backgrounds. It tells you that there are characters named after Cloud, Squall, and Zidane in Crystal Chronicles. It tells you that a sprite of Cloud appears on the menu of the PS1 version of FFV. That there's a 'Cloud's Shop' in FFVIII. It tells you there is an treasure called 'Materia' in FFT. It tells you there is a poster of Bahamut Lagoon in FFVII, a reference to Xenogears in Cloud's Mideel dialogue, and that the name of a kingdom from Chrono Trigger appears in the Gold Saucer play.

It mentions all these things, but in its section for FFVII, it doesn't mention this cameo reference to two of FFVII's major characters. It mentions Zidane talking about a spiky haired guy when looking at a large sword, and it mentions the Rufus' Welcoming Ceremony track being played. But not this? Why? What's the deal here? They mention the cameo in FFT, but not this? What is the difference in this case?

All I was saying is that people in Japanese don't seem to view this in this way. That despite the amount of useless trivia they have decided to publish, they didn't think that this was worth pointing out? That no Japanese fans seem to have gone online and said 'look at this cute C/A reference in FFIX'? In the thousands of forum threads and websites and blogs? No one at all? Why is this solely limited to the Western world?

The "wavers" quote proves that Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" that Tifa is jealous of is romantic.
I don't really believe that your stance is 'both are canon' when you find a dozen ways to dismiss anything that supports Cloud/Tifa. This quote supports the stance you claim to have, but not the stance you seem to be acting from (which is that Cloud/Aerith is the intended couple and the one that Square has picked).

The fact that SE made Cloud and Aerith a married couple tells us that they view Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple.
It is a little spin-off game and 'Emperor and Empress' is a reference to Hinamatsuri, a cultural event that happened when they released it. Just like they pair Zack and Tifa as school kids was a reference to the start of the new school year.

School romances are a common cliche. Hundreds, thousands of shoujo manga books on this theme must fill the shelves of Japanese book stores. All the TV dramas and movies, all the novels. You'd have to be in denial to not admit that. What significance (beyond FFVII being popular) does pairing Tifa and Zack have? What is SE trying to say with that choice? That's they're just side characters relegated to getting the scrap roles not fit for Emperors and Empresses?

Actually, I'm not going to go on about this. I don't feel like talking about a storyless cameo in a spin-off game I never played. Tifa and Aerith later appeared together in bikinis. What's the meaning behind that?

But if the HAHW scene is somehow proof-positive that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, it really wouldn't make sense for Nomura to say he doesn't care if the answer was already determined from the HAHW scene.
Not caring about 'who dates who' means you don't care who is dating who. Even if they are.

Because these things were an unknown at one point, and Nomura likes to leave blanks so people can fill them in themselves. He says so in that quote. The part you didn't include.

But that was from 8 years ago. There's been a lot of stuff since then. Maybe his opinion is different. Has anyone asked him about it recently?

The HAHW scene does not give Nomura any clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship two years after FFVII ended.
jfc

tumblr_mj4xmf2nSw1rkwtsqo1_500.gif


You're using a quote in your signature that was literally translated from Japanese in a way that makes it sound very romantic. In a way that isn't really implied in the Japanese idiom, which Square themselves translated correctly as 'never forget' or something.

But you're using the one that makes it sound more romantic, because that's what you want. You want things that make your chosen side (because for all this 'both are canon' stuff, you have a side you're trying to prove) sound better. You're picking one translation, an inaccurate one, over another because that incorrect one works in your favour.

Which I assume is why you ignore when anything else is presented that counters it, or you just don't update wherever you copy-paste your responses from.


But why don't we take a look at the... big picture for a second.

- Cloud and Tifa 'confess mutual feelings'. (Confessions of love are a big part of Japanese romance.)
- Cloud and Tifa start to live together, along with their friend Barret who has a young daughter and nowhere else to go.
- Barret eventually leaves, and Marlene stays with Tifa and Cloud. Later Denzel joins them.
- Tifa and Cloud have some troubles and he distances himself from everyone and contracts a fatal disease which he hides from his 'family'. This is what is known as 'conflict', and it is something that happens in dramatic fiction.
- Cloud leaves home, because while he was happy it only made his fears about something terrible happening worse.
- Cloud eventually overcomes his problems, and returns home a stronger man. He sees the two people he felt he let down smiling at him, before walking away into a white light. This is a 'resolution'.


As opposed to:

- Cloud and Tifa confess their feelings for each other, then Cloud states that he wants to be with Aerith in his own land of supreme happiness. Tifa tags along for some reason. This is 'really confusing'.
- Cloud quickly abandons his plans to look for Aerith and starts living with Tifa in the completely impersonal homebase of AVALANCHE, despite having only just confessed his feelings for her then unceremoniously dumping her right when they were possibly about to die. This is 'a bit of a dick move on Cloud's part'.
- At some point during this cohabitation, Cloud decides to resume his search for a means to meet Aerith. This is shown to the audience by showing absolutely nothing to suggest that he is doing this. Also he gets sick and that means he leaves because he would rather spend time where he gets to be reminded of past failures for... comfort?
- Tifa is sad because the man that rejected her while they were at death's door is now gone and she no longer has anyone to ask if they love her.
- Stuff happens and apparently Aerith moves into Cloud at some point during the Kadaj/Sephiroth business because she clearly wasn't there before. Unless you accept the reasoning people used to use like 'his guilt was too strong to let him see her', which doesn't really make sense seeing as he see her during the film when he's arguably at the height of emotional suffering.
- Cloud wins the day, and is reunited with Aerith. This is shown by the classic cinematic language of 'showing the dead people walking away from the living characters into a ghostly white light'. Used in all the greatest and highly respected films like maybe Ghostbusters? I can't remember.
- Cloud then returns to live with Tifa, because there is no better way to celebrate being reunited with the love of your life who's dead than by living with the woman you jilted moments before potential death. Rock on, Cloud, you're totally not a scumbag like Zack!
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
...but the LTD doesn't revolve around who is a couple. It revolves around who does Cloud love.
no seriously

this is something that you made up one day and are now trying to push on other people

who looks at a love triangle where we know there are feelings all around, and doesn't think about who they ultimately end up with? if we know cloud's feelings and it's 'i love both', the next logical step in a non-polyamorous world is which one will he pick?

except when you want to claim that they are both right but constantly deride one particular side
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Even if he loves both of them, loving + coupling (C/T) trumps just loving (C/A). It seems you want everyone on this site who disagrees with you to settle for the middle ground even when they have the upper hand.
But there is no proof of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene.

The two biggest reasons that Cloti's use to prove Cloud x Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene:

1: Cloud and Tifa live together!
Response: They live in Seventh Heaven. A place that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE. Cloud and Tifa living together in Seventh Heaven (in particular) does not mean they are in a relationship. Furthermore, Seventh Heaven is Barret's home, too. Until Cloud and Tifa buy a house together with a white picket fence, them living together at Seventh Heaven is not proof of a romantic relationship. It is also worth noting Cloud has his own room with a bed in it.

2: Cloud and Tifa are raising children together!
Response: One of the children (Marlene) is Barret's daughter. The other child is Denzel, and Cloud believes Aerith brought Denzel to him. It's not as though Cloud and Tifa went to an adoption agency and adopted a child together. Furthermore, Denzel viewing Cloud as his Father figure and Tifa as his Mother figure doesn't say anything about how Cloud and Tifa view each other. It simply tells us how Denzel views them in relation to him.

Conclusion: Until Tifa and Cloud stop living at Seventh Heaven, decide to buy a house together with a white picket fence, get married, or have children of their own, all the reasons Cloti's use to prove they are in a relationship after the HAHW scene are flawed.

I'm sick of (some) Cloti's making it seem as though Cloud and Tifa bought a house together and had two children together. That is a complete misrepresentation of the truth in order to build up their ship.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
I'm unclear about what you are referencing. Please give me some examples and I'd be happy to respond.



  • Cloud didn't care for anyone except for Aerith and he only rescued Tifa because she pays him
  • Cloud ignores Tifa because he misses her calls like once every week
  • Cloud and Tifa are not canon because they are not listed in the charts as one
  • Cloud and Tifa are not canon because mutual romantic feelings does not mean a relationship follows
  • Cloud and Tifa can only be a romantic couple if they follow the traditional formula of marriage and having children of their own
I'm actually confused, because:


  • You say the LTD question is "who does Cloud love?"
  • Then you admit Cloud loves Tifa
  • Therefore Cloti is canon
  • The go on great lengths on why the HAHW scene doesn't make Cloti a couple (Nomura's quote etc) because in AC Cloud loves Aerith
  • Even if the HAHW scene already answered the LTD question
 

Rhapsody

Actually Shroudedg
Quexinos:
I guess I'm a little confused... are you saying she isn't a koibito at all?... why would Nomura mention it then? ...
She can. I never said she can't be one...just that she doesn't have to be one. Again, there are many dimensions to her character. She can be perceived at from many different angles. Nomura told us what those angles are. It's up to us to decide which angle/s we perceive her from.

It isn't an issue about translation. In the interview, Nomura said he doesn't care about who is with whom. Then he went on to say he doesn't know about it either. His not knowing is a by-product of his not caring.
Ah, so it has nothing to do with a translation issue. So he doesn't care AND he doesn't know. Basically, he doesn't solidify Cloud and Tifa as an actual pairing when asked. Can we agree on that?

Concerning Cloud and Tifa living together...they are doing so under circumstances. Cloud gets invited into the family by Marlene. Cloud and Tifa end up being the only adults taking care of the kids because Barret suddenly leaves. It would be a completely different story if Cloud and Tifa discuss and mutually decide to move in together/raise kids. That's not the case though.

Also, I believe the idea being "family" = friends as defined by CoT. Not sure how the family can be used as romantic evidence then. I do believe SE had a reason for putting them into a situation *similar* to that of one where they were romantic partners, however...but I won't discuss that at the moment since I don't have the time.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
But there is no proof of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene.

The two biggest reasons that Cloti's use to prove Cloud x Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene:

1: Cloud and Tifa live together!
Response: They live in Seventh Heaven. A place that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE. Cloud and Tifa living together in Seventh Heaven (in particular) does not mean they are in a relationship. Furthermore, Seventh Heaven is Barret's home, too. Until Cloud and Tifa buy a house together with a white picket fence, them living together at Seventh Heaven is not proof of a romantic relationship. It is also worth noting Cloud has his own room with a bed in it.

2: Cloud and Tifa are raising children together!
Response: One of the children (Marlene) is Barret's daughter. The other child is Denzel, and Cloud believes Aerith brought Denzel to him. It's not as though Cloud and Tifa went to an adoption agency and adopted a child together. Furthermore, Denzel viewing Cloud as his Father figure and Tifa as his Mother figure doesn't say anything about how Cloud and Tifa view each other. It simply tells us how Denzel views them in relation to him.

Conclusion: Until Tifa and Cloud stop living at Seventh Heaven, decide to buy a house together with a white picket fence, get married, or have children of their own, all the reasons Cloti's use to prove they are in a relationship after the HAHW scene are flawed.

I'm sick of (some) Cloti's making it seem as though Cloud and Tifa bought a house together and had two children together. That is a complete misrepresentation of the truth in order to build up their ship.

You're wrong. The biggest proofs are what Cloud and Tifa actually tells each other, leading to their decision to continue living together. Cloud blushed around Tifa, tells her that he's always failed at everything but now he can succeeded because it's now different between her and him.

You always ignore it when Clotis clarify that non-traditional set-ups exist. A set-up where there are few families occupying the same house resulting to couples parenting children that aren't theirs exist. Couples who do not share a bedroom also exist.

I find it rather offensive that some people's idea of a romantic cohabitation is the traditional American set-up of a white-picketed fence. Say hello to Asia.

Edit: You can't have aunts, uncles, grandads, grannys, cousins, nieces and nephews around they invalidate your romance. You should take care of your own children, biological ones specifically.
 
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Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Strangelove:
Let's be frank. People have. You're unwilling to accept any of them, however, because those possible answers contradict the idea that Cloud loves Tifa. No shame in admitting that.
I have been on other sites than this one. Before this one was around. I was a member of the Cloud/Aerith forum for years. Before AC and subsequent material, I was actually more inclined towards Cloud/Aerith. Over time I just couldn't see that, especially as more things came out.

I still never saw a satisfying answer to that question.

So be frank. What are the answers?

I think, the most important thing here, however, isn't Tia's reaction.
Awfully convenient. The important thing isn't the question I was asking.

It makes complete sense if Tifa is supportive of Cloud's wish.
Tifa says 'let's go meet her'. As in she is going too. Not a 'good luck' or 'I'm happy for you' or 'I hope you find her'. No. She's tagging along.

That isn't supportive, that's inviting yourself where you're not really needed. Is she planning on watching their reunion? What's the intention there? (Which is also the Ultimania Omega's commentary on it, that it is about Cloud and Tifa going to meet Aerith.)

(And there was a line in OtWtaS where she and Cloud go to 'meet' Aerith, by visiting her grave. Job done, mission complete. Home time.)

It's Cloud's statement regarding his ultimate happiness and tying that with meeting/finding Aerith again.
His? He doesn't say 'my Promised Land'. He says 'the Promised Land'.

Which Tifa then decides that she is going to visit too.

What bothers me quite a bit about this type of answer is how Tifa's character is portrayed by one side of the fandom. In other words, people don't care what this makes her character look like as long as CloudXTifa isn't proven wrong. You're implying here that Tifa has terrible perception(and this would be very true if Cloud indeed does love her and not Aerith). You're implying that Tifa(who Cloud already confessed romantic feelings to, supposedly) is so unreasonable as to be that insecure over some dead woman Cloud supposedly has no romantic feelings for? So she doesn't have reasons to be concerned at all. She's just, what, extremely unreasonable, temperamental, and dramatic?
Who said I think Tifa is a perfect character that does what's best or most reasonable all the time.

But it's unreasonable to be upset when someone she loves is miserable, going to places that remind him of tragic events, and is being tormented by the memory of a woman who she herself was very fond of? What's the 'reasonable' reaction in this case?

And more pressingly, what is 'unreasonable, temperamental, and dramatic' about feeling conflicted about such a situation? She wasn't exactly screaming the neighbourhood down and rampaging the streets in hysterics. At most she snapped at Cloud once in OtWtaS and laid into him in AC.

Again, I don't think Cloud has no romantic feelings for Aerith. I know some people here do, but I don't. I just don't think he is now searching for her after death.

Actually, I have to agree Tifa would indeed be the koibito of Cloud...if she were one. What I don't agree with is the idea that Nomura was saying Tifa *has to be* a koibito. There are many dimensions to her character, after all: someone who is like a mother, an ally in battle, and a koibito. At no point did Nomura ever specify she must be a koibito.
This has been address time and time again, but the short version is:

- he doesn't say 'dimensions' in the Japanese quote (we're going to use 'koibito'? we're going to use the rest of the Japanese words). He says 'positions, stations [in life]'
- the only time he says she is 'like' something, is when he says mothers. The rest are just plain statements, 'she is also a ...'. That includes 'koibito'.
- how is she 'like a lover'? How is one 'like a lover' but not? Not that it matters, because it doesn't say that.

Not that I believe this absolutely proves there is something going on between Cloud and Aerith....but, really, you're not going to tell me this isn't a homage to Cloud/Aerith/FFVII after you just directed a statement regarding common sense at Blankbeat, right?
Does Weimar's dialogue sound anything like what Cloud would say? Even the fake/Jenova Cloud? It's a crap reference if that's meant to be Cloud.

I can see why people take it as such. But it doesn't really explain the complete silence about this from any Japanese media or fandom.

...perhaps because two people wearing school uniforms aren't necessarily a pairing?
Perhaps two people wearing children's doll costumes isn't necessarily a pairing?
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
As I've said multiple times:

Everything following the above is unnecessary, seeing as you've said everything you ever say multiple times. We could probably guess the entire content of this post and be at least reasonably close to correct. Just one more thing...

the LTD revolves around the question, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

To you, this may be true. But around here, no that is not the be all, the end all, or the anything at all. Its you changing goalposts from where things used to be. Around here, whether Cloud loved Aerith, was attracted to Aerith, or thought Aerith smelled funky enough to be the slum drunk... NONE OF THAT MATTERS. Most folks here will admit, quite freely, that there was something between Cloud and Aerith. An attraction, a spark, maybe even full on romantic love albeit with no payoff on account of the girl being dead before anyone confessed anything. It doesn't matter. What DOES matter is who Cloud is actually with. Tifa. Its been demonstrated for you. Over and over. So do stop trying to tell us what the LTD revolves around. We already know.

For the record, it revolves around a pile of bullshit so massive its gravitational force is greater than the sun, but you know what I meant.
 
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