The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Goodbye Charlie]

What do you think of the fact that even if you've favored Aerith the whole game, said all the cute responses to her and went on the date with her, SE still makes it possible for you to get the HA version of the Highwind scene, in which Cloud and Tifa spend a romantic night together(with or without sex)? Is that supposed to tell me something about the way SE views Cloud and Aerith's relationship, that they made it not only possible but easy to get the HAHW?

This is what I mean in a nutshell. You don't need quotes. The story speaks for itself, if your premise doesn't hold true throughout (and isn't simply an observation of what you think/hope someone thought/said in one scene), it's inaccurate.

The notion of Aeris and Cloud being the key love factor for FF7 cannot hold water, especially in the larger compilation because as soon as you justify one aspect you put another part of the story - a straight forward part - into uncertainty. The sequence of narrative events tells you who is what to whom, and while Eastern and somewhat different in the nuances of storytelling, the same basic structures exist. The attempt of over fixate on Aeris and Cloud demeans, weakens or just creates unsatisfying moments, for other characters and their dynamics within the Compilation, specifically Zack rather than Tifa.

Scream and howl, but any ambiguity of Aeris' feelings for Cloud and Zack was pretty much wiped out with the Compilation. Fixate on trying to prove Cloud and Aeris being the romantic focus within the story and Zack's elements start to play very awkwardly, particularly later on. His story carries no closure, no real bookend, all because you want to make him second fiddle to a relationship born from a girl internally grieving and a fruitloop of a hero. That's before we get to how we have to dissect and reassess the family situation in Advent Children.

To focus on Cloud and Aeris to such degree is an insult to the rest of the characters. To make that work, you need to demean everyone else's role and relevancy - even Cloud's actually (for Advent Children)

 

[I Am Not Me]

To focus on Cloud and Aeris to such degree is an insult to the rest of the characters. To make that work, you need to demean everyone else's role and relevancy - even Cloud's actually (for Advent Children)

Well, this has been their main sin for a long while now. Especially toward Cloud himself. Their arguments center on the fact that Cloud has a hierarchy of people important to him. Aerith is first, of course, and the rest don't even matter unless they show "support" towards Clerith's romance.

Everything any character does will apparently be related to Cloud and Aerith somehow. Next we'll find singular lines of other characters being used to try to boost the ship itself. And they will keep arguing like this as though the characters' main reason for being created is to prove romance between Cloud and Aerith.

While Cloud and Aerith are the main characters of FF7, the story and the rest of the characters don't revolve around them or their romance. FF7 isn't even about romance. There is a bigger story beyond this love triangle; a way bigger picture. Which the current arguments obviously ignore because they can't even have substantial "proof" without things being taken out of context.

It's actually a very sad situation, come to think. By that, I mean the arguments having to be made mostly of assumptions to even get them to work.

 

[BlankBeat]

Did Barret acknowledged Cloud rescue Tifa from Don? I don't think so. As far as I know, none of other members of Avalanche knew about that except Tifa, Aerith and Cloud himself, and also that is why "Cloud rescued Tifa, too," is not included because it was Barret's observation towards Cloud’s behaviour and Barret didn't even know what happen before Aerith was captured. And I don't think Cloud is going to tell Barret and the rest of Avalanche about his cross dressing experience either. And not to mention that scene is optional. (Too much AND there)

To me, it is clear that SE's goal by doing these three things (Cloud's conversation with Marlene, Barret's observation, Tifa's jealously) was to show that Cloud and Aerith were forming a "special bond" that was obviously built around romantic attraction.

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let’s hope so."
Marlene: "I won’t tell Tifa."
---->
Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.
---->
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

All of this was meant to highlight Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" that was developing. The "special bond" that Cloud and Aerith were forming was compared directly to Cloud's other "love rival", Tifa:

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world." ~Final Fantasy 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Cloud: I can't really explain it well… The problem isn't resolved. Well, I don't think it will be resolved for a long time to come. You can’t retrieve lives that have been lost.
Cloud: but maybe we can still save those lives that are endangered just now. Maybe even I can do it.
Tifa: You mean Denzel?
Cloud: Yeah
***
Tifa: And you’re wrong, Cloud
Tifa: Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to you.
Cloud: Ahh, I only thought that…..
Tifa: I didn’t mean it that way...
Tifa: Aerith brought Denzel to our home.
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled.

You are missing the end of this quote where it says that Tifa doesn't think Cloud's smile was genuine.

Mutual feelings based on attraction, YES. Romantic feelings? No.

Above scene shows grieves and resentment and by the way as far as I know there is none quote of Ultimanias ever said Cloud loves Aerith romantically. The End.

I think part of the reason Cloud shows more grief than everyone else is because he had romantic feelings for Aerith. That's not the only reason he showed more grief, but I think it's part of the reason he showed more grief.

If you look what happened prior to Aerith's death, SE specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith’s romantic future with Cloud. Given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it's obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by Sephiroth. The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad to Cloud. By killing off a romantic interest to Cloud, it adds another level of heartbreak.

In addition, SE says that: “After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Why would this prediction that expects Cloud and Aerith's *WEDDING* become *MORE* painful after Aerith's death? Answer: because they had a mutual attraction that could have led to a marriage.

 

[BlankBeat]

Think of it this way: if Cloud and Aerith did not have mutual romantic feelings, why would a wedding prediction become "more painful" after her death?

In other words, if Cloud never had romantic feelings for Aerith, this wedding prediction would not become "more painful" after Aerith's death because there never would have been a possibility of a marriage in the first place.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BlankBeat, what are you arguing in favor of right now? I'm genuinely asking. That Cloud loves both women but his actions only show it with Aerith? That he loves both during FFVII but only Aerith after FFVII?

I'm honestly confused about what you're setting out to prove.

 

[BlankBeat]

BlankBeat, what are you arguing in favor of right now? I'm genuinely asking. That Cloud loves both women but his actions only show it with Aerith? That he loves both during FFVII but only Aerith after FFVII?

I'm honestly confused about what you're setting out to prove.

You agree that the primary question revolving around the LTD is: Who does Cloud Strife love? Therefore, I'm simply trying to demonstrate that Cloud loved Aerith.

It seems that people think Cloti is canon for two reasons:
1. Cloud and Tifa *EXPRESSED* mutual feelings
2. Cloud and Tifa are in an established relationship in AC

To me, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings because although Cloud and Aerith never expressed mutual feelings, they still *HAD* mutual feelings. There is also zero evidence that Cloud and Tifa turned their mutual feelings into an established romantic relationship in CoT or AC.

The bottom line is: Cloud loved both women. Therefore, neither pairing is canon over the other because both pairings are canon.

--------------------

Grieving doesn't in anyway whatsoever equal pure love if that was the case Edward x Tellah would be canon same with Terra x Leo and Dagger x her mum and Zidane x Vivi even

and that would be some strange shit

The reason I know Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death is partly related to his romantic feelings for Aerith is because of this quote: “After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

The only way a wedding prediction would become "more painful" after Aerith's death is if there was mutual feelings between Cloud and Aerith. If Cloud did not have feelings for Aerith, it wouldn't make sense that this prediction would become "more painful" because there never would have been a possibility of marriage in the first place.

 

[BlankBeat]

What do you think of the fact that even if you've favored Aerith the whole game, said all the cute responses to her and went on the date with her, SE still makes it possible for you to get the HA version of the Highwind scene, in which Cloud and Tifa spend a romantic night together(with or without sex)? Is that supposed to tell me something about the way SE views Cloud and Aerith's relationship, that they made it not only possible but easy to get the HAHW?

Because you asked that I respond to this...

I also think it is significant and worth noting that SE starts the game off with this:

It makes it seem as though SE is favoring Aerith over Tifa.

SE also make it a point to say that, “In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
[I guess by playing the game normally, they mean favoring Aerith]

To me, SE wanted the Clerith date to be the easiest to achieve and the HAHW scene the easiest to achieve, too. This allows both girls in the LTD to spend one-on-one time with Cloud in a romantic setting.

Also -- Cloud and Aerith *HAD* mutual feelings, it's just that they were never able to express them (for obvious reasons). This is why Cait Sith's wedding prediction becomes "MORE PAINFUL" after Aerith's death -- they weren't able to turn their mutual feelings into a marriage.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You agree that the primary question revolving around the LTD is: Who does Cloud Strife love? Therefore, I'm simply trying to demonstrate that Cloud loved Aerith.

It seems that people think Cloti is canon for two reasons:
1. Cloud and Tifa *EXPRESSED* mutual feelings
2. Cloud and Tifa are in an established relationship in AC

To me, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings because although Cloud and Aerith never expressed mutual feelings, they still *HAD* mutual feelings. There is also zero evidence that Cloud and Tifa turned their mutual feelings into an established romantic relationship in CoT or AC.

The bottom line is: Cloud loved both women. Therefore, neither pairing is canon over the other because both pairings are canon.

I think even you do actually agree that there isn't really "zero evidence" of a romantic relationship in Case of Tifa and AC -- but anyway, just about everyone here agrees that Cloud had romantic feelings for both women during the original game. I don't see the need to diminish Cloud's feelings for Tifa to prove his feelings for Aerith, nor how him being in a relationship with Tifa after the original game diminishes his feelings for Aerith.

It's canon that he had feelings for both. What's there to argue about, really? How is all this still going all these pages later? I don't understand and I've read every post. =P

 

[Octo]

The Aerith date makes the most sense narratively though. Also even from Aeriths standpoint, the date was more about trying to figure Cloud out than romance.

To me, SE wanted the Clerith date to be the easiest to achieve and the HAHW scene the easiest to achieve, too. This allows both girls in the LTD to spend one-on-one time with Cloud in a romantic setting.

I think most people would agree that the Aerith date and the HAHW were the intended narrative.

@Tres. He had feelings for both, but he ended up with Tifa. Had Aerith lived maybe it would be different, but nothing happened during the time they were together to justify some sort of ongoing 'love beyond death' scenario.

 

[BlankBeat]

I think even you do actually agree that there isn't really "zero evidence" of a romantic relationship in Case of Tifa and AC

There is not one explicit quote or scene of romance between Cloud and Tifa in CoT or AC. Everything that is used to support a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC is circumstantial and debatable (ie: living arrangements, the family, etc.)

-- but anyway, just about everyone here agrees that Cloud had romantic feelings for both women during the original game.

I'm pretty sure Ryu doesn't. He continues to maintain that Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" was that of just friendship. He maintains this position despite the "wavers" quote, Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith, *AND* Cloud's admission to Marlene that he is romantically interested in Aerith.

He is also ignoring the significance of SE saying that Cait Sith's wedding prediction becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death. The reason this prediction becomes "more painful" is because Cloud and Aerith had a mutual attraction that could have led to a marriage.

He is also ignoring that SE tells us that Tifa is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship under the context of the love triangle. The only reason Tifa would be jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship is if there was clear evidence of mutual romantic feelings between them. Denying that Tifa's jealously is due to the mutual romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith ignores the context in which SE provides this information. It also ignore all that I laid out in my previous paragraph which proves that Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality.

He is also ignoring that Cloud was physically attracted to Aerith. And we all know that physical attraction (typically) leads to romantic attraction, which is exactly what happened during the course of FFVII between Cloud and Aerith.

It's canon that he had feelings for both. What's there to argue about, really? How is all this still going all these pages later? I don't understand and I've read every post. =P

Well, to me, it seems people are denying common sense. Was Barret's observation really included just so people would say, "Cloud rescued Tifa, too!"...?

Was Barret's observation really wedged between Cloud's admission to Marlene and Tifa's jealously for no reason? To me, it seems obvious that these three things were meant to show us that Cloud and Aerith were beginning to develop a "special bond" that was romantic in nature.

Also -- people continue to believe that Jenova makes all of Cloud's interaction with Aertih null-and-void. Do people really think that SE would agree with that? Plus, people seem to be denying that part of the real Cloud *WAS* present during disc 1. They are also forgetting that Cloud continues to feel strongly about things that happened during disc 1. So if the things that took place during disc 1 are relevant to the real!Cloud, it is irrelevant that Cloud wasn't his complete self during disc 1.

 

[Dashell]

Was Barret's observation really wedged between Cloud's admission to Marlene and Tifa's jealously for no reason? To me, it seems obvious that these three things were meant to show us that Cloud and Aerith were beginning to develop a "special bond" that was romantic in nature.

I'm going to be honest here, I really don't think Square thought about it that much. Not everything is done to prove Cloud loves either Tifa or Aerith

 

[BlankBeat]

I'm going to be honest here, I really don't think Square thought about it that much. Not everything is done to prove Cloud loves either Tifa or Aerith

I'm not saying everything is done to prove Cloud loves Tifa or Aerith.

But...did you read this posts of mine?

Cloud: I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over...I'm outta here.

Barret: Little by little the reactors'll drain out all the life. And that'll be that.
Cloud: It's not my problem.
Barret: The planet's dyin', Cloud!
Cloud: The only thing I care about is finishin' this job before security and the Roboguards come.

Cloud: Shut up! I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER! But don't get me wrong! I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!

All of these exchanges refer to Cloud's lack of care for other people besides himself. Then, when Cloud expresses his desire to save Aerith, Barret says, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed."

Barret's observation is obviously in reference to the exchanges Cloud and him had during the beginning of the game. To me, it is clear that SE set Cloud up to be someone that didn't seem to care for others. But then, with the introduction of Aerith, that started to change. SE helped show us this change through the exchanges Cloud had with Barret.

 

[Strangelove]

He doesn't say that Cloud changed. Just that his view of Cloud changed. He was 'wrong about [Cloud]'.

But by bringing that up and making it a point in proving C/A, you are making a piece of Barret's characterisation mainly about who Cloud loves.

 

[BlankBeat]

He doesn't say that Cloud changed. Just that his view of Cloud changed. He was 'wrong about [Cloud]'.

But by bringing that up and making it a point in proving C/A, you are making a piece of Barret's characterisation mainly about who Cloud loves.

It is clear that SE was starting to show us, through various events, that Cloud and Aerith were starting to form a "special bond". Barret's observation can be both about his character development and another signal from SE that Cloud and Aerith were forming a "special bond".

 

[Dashell]

And that's one thing but to say "It happens between this and this for a reason!" and so on... I think that's taking it too far. That's too much analogy... Square doesn't think about this stuff that much. I can guarantee you that

 

[BlankBeat]

And that's one thing but to say "It happens between this and this for a reason!" and so on... I think that's taking it too far. That's too much analogy... Square doesn't think about this stuff that much. I can guarantee you that

Then we have a difference of opinion.

There were two things going on simultaneously:
1. Barret's shifting view of Cloud
2. Cloud and Aerith forming a special bond

I believe SE was trying to kill two birds with one stone -- show that Barret was starting to think differently about Cloud while also showing that this change in Cloud is associated with the woman he is forming a special bond with.

 

[Dashell]

So you really think some Square dudes sat down and said, "Okay we need to show Cloud and Aerith's special bond, so we'll have Barret say something about him rescuing her, put that BETWEEN these two events and that'll take care of that? What's next on the agenda?"

 

[BlankBeat]

So you really think some Square dudes sat down and said, "Okay we need to show Cloud and Aerith's special bond, so we'll have Barret say something about him rescuing her, put that BETWEEN these two events and that'll take care of that? What's next on the agenda?"

All I'm saying is that Barret's observation was meant to highlight that Cloud's behavior seemed to be changing because of Aerith, a woman he was starting to form a "special bond" with.

And what's the problem with thinking certain pieces of dialogue are significant or intentional? It seems that Cloti's want to downplay and dismiss Barret's observation because it lends support to Cloud's growing feelings for Aerith.

Are you suggesting that we can downplay and dismiss any piece of dialogue by simply saying we don't think SE gave it much thought?

To me, it is obvious that SE *DID* give this a lot of thought because of Cloud and Barret's past conversations where Cloud *ADMITS* to not caring about anything or anyone. Barret's observation was in reference to the previous conversations where Cloud admits to not caring about others. This tells me that Barret's observation *IS* significant and intentional because it is highlighting a dramatic shift in Cloud's behavior.

 

[Dashell]

The thing is, I'm not dismissing it. I'm not saying "Pfft that's nothing." I'm saying you're putting too much weight on it saying that Square deliberately put that between two other moments with full intentions of showing us Cloud and Aerith stuff, when I really don't think they thought about it that much.

The love triangle is such a small part of that game... I'm not saying they didn't think about it at all, but I think it was more of a "This will be a sweet thing for Barret to notice" not ... what I said in my previous post

 

[BlankBeat]

The thing is, I'm not dismissing it. I'm not saying "Pfft that's nothing." I'm saying you're putting too much weight on it saying that Square deliberately put that between two other moments with full intentions of showing us Cloud and Aerith stuff, when I really don't think they thought about it that much.

I'm simply saying that this was yet another example of SE showing us that Cloud and Aerith were forming a special bond.

 

[Dashell]

If that's all you're saying, then, yes I agree but I also think it was development from Barret.

 

[Geostigma]

If Blankbeat is actually right about this then I guess SE at its absolute height of its story telling peak must not be very good at telling a story.

Especially considering near the entirety of the FF7 fan base walked away at the completion of the game with a completely different out come for the story and subplots.

Jeeze here i thought SE was good at story telling. Oh well Blankbeats right SE sucks and obviously needs over a decade worth of telling us what to think about the story and breaking it down hundreds of times to completely understand.

 

[BlankBeat]

If that's all you're saying, then, yes I agree but I also think it was development from Barret.

 

[Dashell]

no u

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There is not one explicit quote or scene of romance between Cloud and Tifa in CoT or AC. Everything that is used to support a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC is circumstantial and debatable (ie: living arrangements, the family, etc.) ...

"Evidence" and "proof" aren't necessarily the same thing. My point, though, is you agree that there's stuff there that would make a reasonable person think "Hey, that sounds like a couple" and that people aren't just pulling the notion out of their asses. =P That's all I'm saying.

I'm pretty sure Ryu doesn't. He continues to maintain that Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" was that of just friendship. He maintains this position despite the "wavers" quote, Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith, *AND* Cloud's admission to Marlene that he is romantically interested in Aerith.

He is also ignoring the significance of SE saying that Cait Sith's wedding prediction becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death. The reason this prediction becomes "more painful" is because Cloud and Aerith had a mutual attraction that could have led to a marriage.

He is also ignoring that SE tells us that Tifa is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship under the context of the love triangle. The only reason Tifa would be jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship is if there was clear evidence of mutual romantic feelings between them. Denying that Tifa's jealously is due to the mutual romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith ignores the context in which SE provides this information. It also ignore all that I laid out in my previous paragraph which proves that Tifa's jealously *IS* rooted in reality.

He is also ignoring that Cloud was physically attracted to Aerith. And we all know that physical attraction (typically) leads to romantic attraction, which is exactly what happened during the course of FFVII between Cloud and Aerith.

Yes, Ryu does tend to downplay a number of those things, I agree. And he'll probably keep doing it.

For the record, I agree with you about all of those points, though I do still want to point out that Tifa's insecurities are meant to say more about her than anyone else. You don't need her insecurities in order to pick up on Cloud having a growing attraction to Aerith. That's already established by other things. Tifa's insecurities are just telling you something about Tifa, not giving you new information about Cloud.

You don't need Tifa to be insecure *and* Cloud to be interested in Aerith *and* for Cloud not to be interested in Tifa in order for Cloud to have feelings for Aerith; you just need him to have feelings for Aerith. Understand what I mean?

Tifa's "peevish feelings" are telling you something about how Tifa feels, not how Cloud feels. Yes, she's observing something that's really there. She's not imagining it. Cloud and Aerith are actually attracted to one another. They get along smashingly. They quickly form a powerful bond and it keeps growing throughout Disc 1.

Aerith can be forward about her attraction to Cloud in a way that the more shy Tifa cannot, and, thus, Tifa's feeling like she hasn't got a shot in hell. That doesn't actually mean she doesn't have a shot in hell. It just means she thinks she doesn't.

Again, this is telling you something about Tifa, not Cloud.

I guess my question is why respond to someone downplaying Cloud's attraction to/feelings for Aerith with downplaying of his feelings for Tifa? You don't need to do that. Really, it only hurts your point and makes this whole thing go off on a thousand unnecessary tangents that ultimately run in circles and derail you and everyone else from the main topic you wanted to discuss (Cloud's feelings for Aerith).

It doesn't help anyone's arguments about Cloud's feelings for Tifa to downplay what he felt for Aerith, and the opposite is also true. Just don't do that. All you need to prove is that Cloud had feelings for Aerith, and you can do that regardless of what he feels for Tifa, regardless of whether he and Tifa are an established couple in Advent Children, and regardless of whether Cloud and Tifa live out the rest of their days together.

None of that affects whether Cloud had feelings for Aerith. None of it. You can have romantic feelings for more than one person. You can even be in love with more than one person. I am. I'm in love with both my wife and my girlfriend, and soon I'll be living with both of them. It's not like I have a finite amount of love to give and that as my love for my girlfriend grew my love for my wife diminished (though she did wrestle with some insecurities about this herself for a while).

Granted, I don't want the complexities that trying to insert a third wife into the mix would require, so I'm just going to stick with two. =P

Anyway, look -- if it will make you feel any better, as Emperor of the Clotis, I declare all the observations BlankBeat made about Cloud's feelings for Aerith in the quoted passage above to be valid.! Now, let peace reign throughout the land! =P

Well, to me, it seems people are denying common sense. Was Barret's observation really included just so people would say, "Cloud rescued Tifa, too!"...?

Was Barret's observation really wedged between Cloud's admission to Marlene and Tifa's jealously for no reason? To me, it seems obvious that these three things were meant to show us that Cloud and Aerith were beginning to develop a "special bond" that was romantic in nature.

Like I said with the thing about Tifa's insecurities, you don't need Barret's observation to get that about Cloud and Aerith's bond. Barret's observation isn't giving us new information about Cloud. It's giving us new information about Barret -- namely, that he realizes he was wrong about Cloud.

Cloud hasn't changed. Barret's perception of Cloud has changed. Remember, Cloud stuck around for the second bombing mission because of his promise to Tifa -- a conversation that Barret missed. Barret just walked into the room in time for Cloud to cover up his real reason for sticking around by demanding more money. What had actually been a tender expression on Cloud's part only ended up looking like assholery to Barret, who didn't know Cloud's real reason for staying.

Barret didn't know that Cloud was doing something for someone else there. Likewise with Cloud's determination to rescue Tifa in Wall Market, even if it meant he had to do something humiliating. And likewise with his concern for Jessie, Biggs, Wedge and Barret himself -- as well as the rest of the people of Sector 7. Most all of which involved dialogue and behavior Barret missed.

Cloud's already exhibited to us, the audience, that he cares about people other than himself plenty by this point. Barret's observation isn't telling us anything new about him. It's telling us something new about Barret: he recognizes that he was wrong about Cloud.

Cloud is a dick at the beginning of the game, yes, but he's not a complete dick. He wouldn't have left Aerith to the Turks if he couldn't get something out of her, but he was more than happy to get what he could in exchange for his help. Similarly, he wouldn't have abandoned Tifa once he remembered the promise, but he was more than happy to get what he could out of that situation as well.

What Barret ultimately observes and comments on is the side of Cloud that he's been hiding from him up to that point. We already know that Cloud isn't quite as big an asshole as he makes himself appear to be. Barret hadn't realized that yet.

Also -- people continue to believe that Jenova makes all of Cloud's interaction with Aertih null-and-void. Do people really think that SE would agree with that?

No.

Plus, people seem to be denying that part of the real Cloud *WAS* present during disc 1. They are also forgetting that Cloud continues to feel strongly about things that happened during disc 1. So if the things that took place during disc 1 are relevant to the real!Cloud, it is irrelevant that Cloud wasn't his complete self during disc 1.

It's irrelevant up to a point. When it comes to his feelings for Tifa, you do have to remember that he hasn't recovered those memories yet. He didn't even remember the promise until she mentioned it, nor the "fact" that he was a SOLDIER 1st Class until Aerith asked him.

But, yes, in terms of the bonds he forms with people during Disc 1, Jenova is irrelevant, I agree.



Thank you for discussing this with me as you did here, by the way. I feel like this is the first time we had an actual conversation.