The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
You are my koibito! :reptar:

whoa whoa... koibito or koi___________bito? :awesome:

Anyway, thanks for explaining that Prince Lex. At first I didn't notice the dialogue, and I thought you were just randomly trying to derail the thread :monster:
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
How could a wedding prediction become "more painful" if Cloud never had romantic feelings for Aerith?

If Cloud never had romantic feelings for Aerith, a marriage would have *NEVER* been possible between Cloud and Aerith. Therefore, it doesn't make sense that this prediction would become "more painful" after Aerith's demise *UNLESS* there was a possibility, based on mutual romantic attraction, for a marriage between Cloud and Aerith.

Again, cherry picking retrospectively.

You've got to think of this as a film, or simply a story. The audience do not know Cloud's true character at this point, nor do they know his involvement and his focus on Tifa.

So at this point, the audience has the assumption that something MIGHT build with Aeris and Cloud. This point is painful because the game has being building on a false premise that will take a twist and then a further twist later on.

As for the romantic proof of Cloud and Tifa, like I've said over and over, it's there in the narrative, in the logic, in the comments. What you're wanting is the story to carry Western "love" story values. It doesn't. Japanese stories don't always work like that, often only putting romance primary when the story is about romance. FF7 isn't about romance, Tifa and Cloud's relationship is explained fully. It doesn't need further spoonfeeding to the audience, unless they're hellbent on proving a romance between two others that makes no sense whatsoever.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
Blankbeat said:
Mock me all you want…but…

Blankbeat, you take it as mocking you personally because you don’t seem to get that the intent is that to show you your double standards regarding Clerith and Cloti (and Clack.) We have tried so many times to point that out but it’s futile. For example, you have repeatedly refused to accept the fact that Cloud also cares for Tifa in Disc 1 even if there is every reason to accept it:
Cloud: But, I just can’t let you go in alone… Oh, man…… First, we’ll need to find out if Tifa’s alright….
Aerith: You ARE worried about Tifa, aren’t you? Then come on, hurry! (Now are you saying Aerith has poor perception skills?)
Cloud: This is SOME underwear…. I’m supposed to wear this…? Well, if it’s to save Tifa… I guess there’s no way around.

Cloud:
……….You worry about yourselves! I’m all right, but take care of Tifa!
People in Sector 7 : Yesterday, everyone in town was peeking at the two of you from outside the bar.”
"Tifa’s childhood friend. That’s a good one!"


No one has yet to answer my question: how could a wedding prediction become “MORE PAINFUL” after Aerith’s death if Cloud never had romantic feelings for Aerith in the first place?

If Cloud never had romantic feelings for Aerith in the first place, a marriage would have never been possible. Therefore, it wouldn’t make sense that the prediction would become “more painful” after Aerith’s death *UNLESS* Cloud and Aerith had a mutual romantic attraction that was cut short by Sephiroth.
You make it seem that there’s only one interpretation to make Cait Sith’s prediction more painful and that is that Cloud and Aerith loved each other. In the end, this itself is not evidence of romance. Just because one POV can look more beautiful than another it doesn’t make it canon.

You want a more painful thing? I only have to use my imagination. You can have the prediction to be completely false and a made up lie. If you want something more positive, you can take the interpretation that if Aerith didn’t die, Cloud would have definitely loved her back as much as she loves him. But he never got the chance to. That is painful as well.

Stop arguing aesthetics, you’re using the argument that your Clerith interpretation makes *insert something* more *insert something here* but in the end that’s not an evidence of romance.

I ask you: why is it that all canon couples like Squinoa, CelesxLocke, BeatrixxSteiner, Cloti, TiYuna and CecilxRosa have indicated mutual romantic feelings? Why did Clerith have none? What’s the intent?

The reason why people in the debate are resorting to sarcasm:

  • You ignore a lot of good counterarguments then repeat what you have said a long, long time ago.
  • You use a collection of weak arguments and label it as “the big picture” to be considered and use it as a defense when each of your arguments are rebutted
  • You resort to “that’s just your opinion” which is dismissive
  • You resort to use interpretation, and when we have different interpretation than yours, you question our common sense and argue we can’t see the intent of SE
  • Even if it’s not necessary you want to prove Cloud’s actions to be motivated by Aerith only even if that makes him a terrible character (adoption of Denzel for example, he'd let him die if it wasn't for Aerith)
  • Everyone is getting frustrated and pointing out your errors like this post just did but you never really care. You make it seem that we’re the bad guys and you’re a poor victim.
And probably I just made a long post that will not really help the situation.
 
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Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
I think for like 30 pages of the same rebuttals people have been pretty patient.

It's a story, there is an answer. The question which. It's not all "opinion". No story is "opinion" even those sold as such, writers have a clear answer. Answer is clear as day here. If those who want Cloud and Aeris united in love stood back, changed all the character names (swap the sexes if it helps distance oneself) and re-evaluates the evidence, you get your answer. It's all really simple. It may not be overstated in gooey romantic terms (though Case of Tifa is pretty damn concise if you ask me), but its present, it is logical and the rational of the AerisxZack, CloudxTifa runs throughout the Compilation with no hitches whatsoever.

Were audiences to suppose CloudxAeris might blossom on disk 1? Sure - that's the trick in the game and narrative mechanics. Could they have Highwinded under different circumstances? Sure. Do I like Aeris as a character? Yes I do actually. I quite like Zack too. If one asks my personal opinion, while I don't ship, I think Aeris and Zack, Cloud and Tifa work - unlike Niles and Daphne in Fraiser for example (though I accept they're canon ^^). I think Cloud and Aeris as characters works too (unlike Niles and, well you get the point), just in the terms of this storyline, their situation, mindset and personal involvement refutes the possibility.
 

Akai Hana

Unknown Creature
AKA
Akai Hana, Komori Yui
Even though I’m tired and exhausted, mainly because I spent the whole day back and forth from college-home-police station, I know I should reply this to you.

To me, it is clear that SE's goal by doing these three things (Cloud's conversation with Marlene, Barret's observation, Tifa's jealously) was to show that Cloud and Aerith were forming a "special bond" that was obviously built around romantic attraction.

All of this was meant to highlight Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" that was developing. The "special bond" that Cloud and Aerith were forming was compared directly to Cloud's other "love rival",

She has a friend who the latter was anti social bastard in their hometown. Would it weird to see that shy-awkward-friend is currently having another friend except her? Yes, she was a bit jealous to see how close Aerith and Cloud become in a short time. I never deny that. Both girls have a feeling towards Cloud. If Aerith is in the same place like Tifa, she would be jealous too. Come to think of it, you will lose some point if you cared for Tifa than her. I can’t seem to remember which conversation though. Anyone had it? (Actually, I’m too lazy to skimmed through ffvii script. I remember it being if Tifa is chose by Don Corneo and I know it’s optional. Well I’m just saying) :monster:

You are missing the end of this quote where it says that Tifa doesn't think Cloud's smile was genuine.

Nope, she said if she was mistaken, if she was imagining it.

Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over. – Case of Tifa Revised.

I think part of the reason Cloud shows more grief than everyone else is because he had romantic feelings for Aerith. That's not the only reason he showed more grief, but I think it's part of the reason he showed more grief.

No, because he was supposed to be her bodyguard. He was supposed to protect her. But he failed. And that is why Cloud shows more grief than anybody else.

If you look what happened prior to Aerith's death, SE specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith’s romantic future with Cloud. Given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it's obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by Sephiroth.

I must say I agree but...

The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad to Cloud. By killing off a romantic interest to Cloud, it adds another level of heartbreak.

Yes, yes, yes. But you got to agree though even though if there is “something” goes on between them, Cloud never found out Aerith’s feeling towards him. If there is a mutual feeling matched and confirmed it was between Cloud and Tifa. And if there any feelings Cloud reciprocate, it is Tifa’s. You can’t deny it.

In addition, SE says that: “After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful. ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Why would this prediction that expects Cloud and Aerith's *WEDDING* become *MORE* painful after Aerith's death? Answer: because they had a mutual attraction that could have led to a marriage.

Call me idiot but why I never heard of Dismantled before?
I’m gonna ask my cousin in Japan if she ever know of this Dismantled before. -_-


***
[offtopic] To those who cared enough (I know you don't but please pretend like you do, for my sake =P) the thief who snatched my bag 2 days ago, has been captured! :awesomonster:
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
It is clear that SE was starting to show us, through various events, that Cloud and Aerith were starting to form a "special bond". Barret's observation can be both about his character development and another signal from SE that Cloud and Aerith were forming a "special bond".
Again, that's taking something and trying to shoehorn it into being another piece of the C/A puzzle. It can't just be about Barret's relationship with Cloud, it has to have something to do with Aerith as well.

If you look at the full dialogue (for the stairs version), Tifa giggles towards the end:

Barret: “…heh heh heh.”
Cloud: “Knock it off. You're giving me the creeps.”
Barret: “So even you will fight for someone else. Guess I figured you wrong.”
Cloud: “Who cares what you figured!”
Barret: “I'm just sayin' mebbe I was wrong…”
Tifa: “heh heh heh……”
Cloud: “What's that supposed to mean, Tifa?”

If this was about Cloud and Aerith's growing relationship, which Tifa is jealous of, why would she laugh at it here? I mean, this is the woman who is constantly including herself in Cloud and Aerith's love life so maybe nothing she does makes sense, but why laugh? What's that showing about Tifa, if this conversation is about Aerith being the only one Cloud cares about?


She doesn't laugh if you go in the front door, but despite the rest of Japanese dialogue being the same for both the English version translates it differently in this scene (for one thing, changing 'someone else' to the plural 'other people'):

Barret: “Heh, heh, heh.”
Cloud: “What is it? You're givin' me the willies.”
Barret: “So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.”
Cloud: “Who cares if you're impressed?”
Barret: “Y'know, I ain't so good at sayin' this but… Sorry…for…lots of things.”



(
BARRET
「……ヘヘヘ」 (... Hehehe.)
CLOUD
「なんだよ、気持ち悪いな」 (What is it, you're creeping me out.)
BARRET
「あんたでも他人のために戦うことがあるんだな。 見直したぜ」 (Even you fight for other people sometimes. I've changed my mind about you.)
CLOUD
「あんたに見直されてもうれしくない」 (Having you change your mind doesn't make me feel happy.) 
BARRET
「いや、なんていうか……  いろいろ悪かったな」 (I mean, how do I say it... sorry for a lot of things.)
TIFA
「フフフ……」 (Hahaha...)
CLOUD
「なんだよ。 TIFAまで……」 (What, now you're at it too, Tifa...)
)
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Trying to get to everyone's response as quickly as I can!

I'd really like to hear more thoughts on what SE's intent was for including a wedding prediction between Cloud and Aerith?
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
DISCLAIMER: Danseru-kun is using these 6 reasons to prove Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1, so I'd like to have a discussion with her about it. I'm not really interested in getting a million responses. So unless your response is genuine and not disrespectful, please don't respond. Thanks.

Danseru-kun, let's examine your examples that prove Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1:

Quote 1:
Cloud: But, I just can’t let you go in alone… Oh, man…… First, we’ll need to find out if Tifa’s alright….

Here is more of the conversation:
Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look. I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"

Aerith: "Why?"

Cloud: "You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith: "Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"

Cloud: "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in
there, it'll cause too much commotion."

(Aerith is giggling.)

Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man...... First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright.... What's so funny, Aerith?"

Aerith, not Cloud, is the one who decides to rescue Tifa from Don's mansion: Aerith: "I'll go take a look. I'll tell Tifa about you." Only after Aertih asks Cloud to go with her ("You want to go in with me?") and his realization that Aerith was going to be putting herself in danger if she went alone ("But, I just can't let you go in alone..."), does Cloud decide to rescue Tifa. Aerith (not Cloud) was the one who decided to rescue Tifa. Cloud decided to go because he knew what kind of place Don's mansion was and did not want Aerith to go alone. It's all there in the script.

Would Cloud have rescued Tifa on his own? We'll never know. One of the reasons I don't think Cloud would have rescued Tifa on his own is because he says: "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion."

Despite thinking of reasons why he wouldn't be able to successfully rescue Tifa, the overriding factor for him was that he didn't want Aerith to put herself in danger and go alone. Without Aerith deciding to rescue Tifa, I believe Cloud would have left it at, "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion."

Furthermore, Cloud only thinks of dressing up like a woman because Aerith thought of it. Cloud is willing to dress up like a woman so Aerith doesn't have to go alone. I highly doubt Cloud would have dressed up like a woman (or even thought of it) if it had not been for Aerith's persistence and his concern for Aerith's safety. The only other way Cloud could have rescued Tifa would have been to, "bust in there" -- which Cloud admits would have caused, "too much commotion."

Could Cloud have eventually decided to, "bust in there"? Maybe. But we'll never know for sure. All we know is this: Aerith (not Cloud) decided to rescue Tifa. Cloud didn't think he would be able to successfully rescue Tifa, but eventually decided to go despite his reservations because he was worried about Aerith's safety (maybe Barret's observation is even more true than I originally thought!)

Possible counterargument: Cloud says, "First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...." -- Cloud was simply talking about the next steps to take since he already decided to go because of his concern for Aerith's safety.

Quote #2:
Aerith: You ARE worried about Tifa, aren’t you? Then come on, hurry!
Aerith seems perplexed that Cloud didn't want to dress up like a girl to rescue Tifa. But we already know why Cloud agreed to rescue Tifa: he didn't want Aerith to go alone because he was worried about her safety. Cloud never answers Aerith's question, by the way.

Quote #3:
Cloud: This is SOME underwear…. I’m supposed to wear this…? Well, if it’s to save Tifa… I guess there’s no way around.
OPTIONAL.

Quote #4
Cloud: ……….You worry about yourselves! I’m all right, but take care of Tifa!
OPTIONAL.

<CHOICE>
(Be strong)
(I don't know if I can hold on...)

***Cloud
(Be strong)
Cloud
".........."
"You worry about yourselves! I'm all right, but take care of Tifa!"

Barret
"...Alright. Sorry 'bout all this."

Cloud
"Stop talkin' like this is the end!"


***Cloud
(I don't know if I can hold on....)

Cloud
"Shit! Can't hold on much longer. Barret..... Hurry!"

Barret
"Don't go cryin' like a woman. There ain't nothin' I can do for
ya. Ya gotta do it yourself."

Cloud
"Barret..."

Barret
"Alright, then, later."


Quote #5:
People in Sector 7 : Yesterday, everyone in town was peeking at the two of you from outside the bar.&#8221;
OPTIONAL.

But how does this quote prove Cloud cares for Tifa...?

Quote #6:
"Tifa&#8217;s childhood friend. That&#8217;s a good one!"
OPTIONAL.

But wouldn't saying, "That's a good one!" imply that they think the idea of them being childhood friends is a joke?

--------------------
Hawkeye said:
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that Cloud didn't become the group's designated leader until they left Midgar. There was no leader (not even Barret) at the time of Aerith's rescue -- it was just three people deciding to risk their lives for another person.

And for the record, so we're all on the same page for once, Barret was the first to bring up rescuing Aerith:

Tifa also brought it up before Cloud said anything to her:

I'd like to talk about this point again. After the plate falls, this scene takes place:

Tifa "...are you saying it's our fault? Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?"
(Barret stands up and shakes his head.)

Barret "No, Tifa!"
"That ain't it! Hell no!!"
"It ain't us! It's the damn Shinra! It's never been nobody but
the Shinra!"

(Cloud steps back, facing away from Barret and Tifa. Barret faces away and raises his arms.)

Barret "They're evil and destroyin' our planet just to..."
"build their power and line their own damn pockets with gold!"
"If we don't get rid of them, they're gonna kill this planet!"
(Barret turns around.)

Barret "Our fight ain't never gonna be over until we get rid of them!"
(Tifa shakes her head.)

Tifa "............I don't know."

Barret "What don't you know!? You don't believe me?"

Tifa "It's not that. I'm not sure about ... me. My feelings."
(Barret faces Cloud, whose back is still turned.)

Barret "An' what about you?"

(Cloud looks up, still not turning.)

Cloud "..........."


(He leaves the playground.)

Barret "Yo! Where's he think he's goin'?"

Tifa "Oh! Aerith!"

Cloud seems to be deep in thought about something throughout this entire scene. Then, when Cloud leaves, Barret asks Tifa where she thinks Cloud is going. It suddenly dawns on Tifa that Cloud is going to save Aerith. It then becomes obvious what Cloud was thinking about -- he was thinking about saving Aerith. Therefore, it's pretty conclusive that Cloud was the first person to think about saving Aerith.

There's also what Cloud said in Dismantled:
Cloud: If only Aerith was not involved in this battle, between me and Shinra&#8230;..
Aerith&#8217;s mother told us that she&#8217;s a foster child. And because she&#8217;s the last survival of &#8220;the Ancents,&#8221; Shinra was after her since she&#8217;s little.
So far, it seemed the Turks had never tried to forcibly take her away in violent manner. They just persistently asked for her cooperation.

But, Shinra was entirely impetuous this time.
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her&#8230;&#8230;by all means!

Despite all of this, both Barret and Tifa look to Cloud first to see if he was going to rescue Aerith. Only after making sure Cloud was going to rescue Aerith did they decide to go.

Barret says, "You gonna go help Aerith, right?" and then he proceeds to say that he's going to go, "too".

Tifa says, "You're going after Aeris, right?" and then she proceeds to say that she's, "coming with you".
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
So apparently, I found on through the grape vine on tumblr, that some Clotis and Zeriths think that a banner showing Zerith and Cloti from Brigade makes their couple canon. Can someone PLEASE give me the name of these Clotis and Zeriths so I can tell them how absolutely ridiculous that is?

Unless they don't exist or something :monster:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^I think that was a bit of a joke...

@BlackBeat: If you can dismiss Cloud/Tifa romance evidence because it is part of OPTIONAL dialog, why can't we dismiss Cloud/Aerith evidence because it is part of OPTIONAL dialog as well?
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
@BlackBeat: If you can dismiss Cloud/Tifa romance evidence because it is part of OPTIONAL dialog, why can't we dismiss Cloud/Aerith evidence because it is part of OPTIONAL dialog as well?
Some scenes have official/canon versions.

Example 1: Cloud and crew take the stairs when they infiltrate the Shinra headquarters:
Barret: Oouuuch!! The muscles on my feet have stretched to the fullest.
The idea of taking the stairs for 59 floors because the guards there are scarce is a big mistake! Maybe it&#8217;s easier if we just raid on the building and smash the enemy right in front&#8230;.Tsk! Am I this old?

Anyway, after we reached the 60th floor, the guard security seemed to get loose. They had never expected that we&#8217;d be able to break through and came here&#8230;those carefree fools.

There&#8217;re some staffs murmured cuz I don&#8217;t look like any one of them. But little doubts didn&#8217;t make them cry for alert. Here we met the mayor of Midgar for the first time, and the feeling was still bad.

Seriously, he&#8217;s just a dummy administrator who takes care of all sorts of data. He was very discontent with Shinra, so we got the cardkey without much effort. That&#8217;s why I can take a break in this rest room&#8230;..

Erm, Tifa, can I ask for&#8230;. a little massage on my legs? Ah, she left already?"
~Dismantled, Page 146
Therefore, this conversation takes place in the stairwell:
Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though&#8230;

Barret: Heh, heh, heh.

Cloud: What is it? You're givin' me the willies.

Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.

Example 2: When Marlene tells Cloud Aerith likes him, Cloud responds, "Let&#8217;s hope so". Cloud saying, "Let's hope so," tells us that Cloud would like there to be a mutual romantic relationship between him and Aerith.
&#8220;Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she&#8217;s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says &#8220;I won&#8217;t tell Tifa!&#8221; demonstrates this grownup behavior.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania
Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:
Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

Cloud: "Let&#8217;s hope so."

Marlene: "I won&#8217;t tell Tifa."

Example 3: The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon:
&#8220;#111: The Planet&#8217;s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A promised date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now&#8230;

Aerith: &#8220;I think I must have seen him again, in you&#8230; But you&#8217;re different. Things are different&#8230; No, Cloud&#8230; I&#8217;m searching for you&#8230;&#8221;
~Final Fantasy Art Collection

&#8220;In Aerith&#8217;s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

&#8220;Oh, Cloud&#8230;I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I&#8217;ll never forget it. I&#8217;ll never forget you, Cloud&#8230;&#8221; ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Example 4: Cloud buys a flower from Aerith:
Cloud: &#8220;Here I met a flower girl. She&#8217;s a girl with impressive eyes. She&#8217;s around my age, or older by one or two years but the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger. (&#8230;) Maybe she&#8217;s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy Dismantled

--------------------

Just to reiterate from my last post:

As sad as it is, according to the script we are given, Aerith was the reason Cloud decided to rescue Tifa.

Initially, Cloud expressed a desire to go back to Tifa's bar. But Once Cloud realized Tifa was in Don's mansion he immediately thought of two roadblocks: he's a guy, and if he were to bust in, it would cause, "too much of a commotion". Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her and deciding he didn't want Aerith to alone, did Cloud eventually decide to dress up like a woman and sneak in.

Obviously people are free to think that Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith. But there's no indication that he would have done so -- in fact, there's evidence to the contrary: "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion."

One could say: THANK GOD for Aerith, because without her, Cloud would have just accepted that he couldn't rescue Tifa. But because of Cloud's desire to keep Aerith safe, he ultimately decided to dress up like a woman and rescue Tifa.

To be honest, I'm not happy about downplaying Cloud's feelings for Tifa. Unfortunately, I'm just looking at the script for what it is.

Furthermore, this is probably why SE kept Barret's observation in the game -- they don't view Cloud rescuing Tifa as evidence of him caring for someone other than Aerith. In fact, this entire situation can be seen as yet another example of Cloud caring for Aerith.
 
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Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
--------------------

Just to reiterate from my last post:

As sad as it is, according to the script we are given, Aerith was the reason Cloud decided to rescue Tifa.

Initially, Cloud expressed a desire to go back to Tifa's bar. But Once Cloud realized Tifa was in Don's mansion he immediately thought of two roadblocks: he's a guy, and if he were to bust in, it would cause, "too much of a commotion". I'm willing to bet this would have been his thought process with or without Aerith.

Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her and deciding he didn't want Aerith to alone, did Cloud eventually decide to dress up like a woman and sneak in.

Obviously people are free to think that Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith. But there's no indication that he would have done so -- in fact, there's evidence to the contrary ("Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion.")

One could say: THANK GOD for Aerith, because without her, Cloud would have just accepted that he couldn't rescue Tifa. But because of Cloud's desire to keep Aerith safe, he ultimately decided to dress up like a woman and rescue Tifa.

To be honest, I'm not happy about downplaying Cloud's feelings for Tifa. Unfortunately, I'm just looking at the script for what it is.

Furthermore, this is probably why SE kept Barret's observation in the game -- they don't view Cloud rescuing Tifa as evidence of him caring for someone other than Aerith. In fact, this entire situation can be seen as yet another example of Cloud caring for Aerith.

tumblr_mnv75yMazI1r1bzhko1_500.jpg


To be honest, I'm not happy about downplaying Cloud's feelings for Tifa.

But that's the crux of your arguments. Seriously, you're not fooling anyone.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Some scenes have official/canon versions.

Example 1: Cloud and crew take the stairs when they infiltrate the Shinra headquarters:

Therefore, this conversation takes place in the stairwell:


Example 2: When Marlene tells Cloud Aerith likes him, Cloud responds, "Let’s hope so". Cloud saying, "Let's hope so," tells us that Cloud would like there to be a mutual romantic relationship between him and Aerith.

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:


Example 3: The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon:


Example 4: Cloud buys a flower from Aerith:


--------------------

Just to reiterate from my last post:

As sad as it is, according to the script we are given, Aerith was the reason Cloud decided to rescue Tifa.

Initially, Cloud expressed a desire to go back to Tifa's bar. But Once Cloud realized Tifa was in Don's mansion he immediately thought of two roadblocks: he's a guy, and if he were to bust in, it would cause, "too much of a commotion". Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her and deciding he didn't want Aerith to alone, did Cloud eventually decide to dress up like a woman and sneak in.

Obviously people are free to think that Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith. But there's no indication that he would have done so -- in fact, there's evidence to the contrary: "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion."

One could say: THANK GOD for Aerith, because without her, Cloud would have just accepted that he couldn't rescue Tifa. But because of Cloud's desire to keep Aerith safe, he ultimately decided to dress up like a woman and rescue Tifa.

To be honest, I'm not happy about downplaying Cloud's feelings for Tifa. Unfortunately, I'm just looking at the script for what it is.

Furthermore, this is probably why SE kept Barret's observation in the game -- they don't view Cloud rescuing Tifa as evidence of him caring for someone other than Aerith. In fact, this entire situation can be seen as yet another example of Cloud caring for Aerith.

I swore I wasn't going to respond anymore, but...C'MON! You are "looking at the script for what it is"? Well that is some bad reading comprehension if you ask me. Cloud saying he is a man and it would be hard to get in there wasn't an "ah well, I tried...I hope Tifa doesn't get taken advantage of too much in there. I'm going to go grab a bite in Wall Market." He was thinking out loud and was trying to think of an alternative way in. He wasn't giving up. He was just trying to think of a better plan, which Aerith provides.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Cloud expresses a desire to go to Tifa's bar. Cloud never says he wants to rescue her from Don's mansion.

Once Cloud realizes Tifa has been captured, Cloud admits to two roadblocks that would prevent him from rescuing Tifa:
1. "being a man"
2. busting in would "cause too much commotion"

But Cloud eventually decides to rescue Tifa despite his reservations because he was worried about Aerith's safety:
"But, I just can't let you go in alone..."

Because he is worried about Aerith's safety, he accepts her proposal to dress up like a girl -- a proposal he would have never thought of by himself or agreed to without Aerith.

Without Aerith, Cloud would have never thought to dress up like a girl and his reservations about causing, "too much of a commotion" and being a, "man" would have prevented him from rescuing Tifa. The only reason he agreed to Aerith's alternative plan was because he didn't want her to go, "alone".

You may disagree with me. But I'm simply going off of what the script says.

EDIT:
But that's the crux of your arguments. Seriously, you're not fooling anyone.
This is the crux of my arguments:

Evidence from SE that Cloud had a romantic bond with Aerith:

1.
&#8220;After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith&#8217;s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith&#8217;s affinity. Cait Sith&#8217;s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith&#8217;s wedding, now makes it more painful.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

If Cloud Strife did not love Aerith, how could a wedding prediction become "more painful" after her death? The only way a wedding prediction would become "more painful" is if there was a basis for which a wedding could happen (ie: mutual romance).

2.
"And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.&#8221; ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This quote tells us that Cloud wavered between Aerith and Tifa -- which means that his relationship with both women was more than a friendship. The only way Cloud could "waver" to Aerith is if he was romantically interested in her.

3.
"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn&#8217;t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith&#8217;s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.&#8221;
~Tifa&#8217;s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

SE tells us that Tifa is jealous of Cloud's relationship with Aerith in both Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children. Given the context with which this information is presented, Tifa's jealously stems from the fact that her and Cloud's romantic bond is threatened by Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith.

4.
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud &#8212; Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world." ~Final Fantasy 10th Anniversary Ultimania

SE provides us the context for which the information is to be viewed: Aerith and Tifa are "love rivals". When SE says that Aerith had, "built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's," it's not saying that one relationship is romantic and the other isn't. It's saying that although both relationships are romantic, Tifa wishes she had a romantic bond with Cloud that was similar to his romantic bond with Aerith. I'd imagine this means Tifa wishes her romantic relationship with Cloud was more flirtatious, open, and forward.

5.
"#111: The Planet&#8217;s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A promised date that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now&#8230;Aerith: &#8220;I think I must have seen him again, in you&#8230; But you&#8217;re different. Things are different&#8230; No, Cloud&#8230; I&#8217;m searching for you&#8230;&#8221; ~Final Fantasy Art Collection

&#8220;In Aerith&#8217;s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

&#8220;Oh, Cloud&#8230;I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I&#8217;ll never forget it. I&#8217;ll never forget you, Cloud&#8230;&#8221; ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Dates are inherently romantic. Cloud agrees to go on a date with Aerith.

6.
&#8220;Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she&#8217;s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says &#8220;I won&#8217;t tell Tifa!&#8221; demonstrates this grownup behavior.&#8221; ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:
Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"
Cloud: "Let&#8217;s hope so."
Marlene: "I won&#8217;t tell Tifa."

Cloud saying, "Let's hope so" tells us that Cloud would like for there to be a mutual romantic relationship between him and Aerith.

7.
"She's a girl with impressive eyes. She's around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
Aerith: "Excuse me, what happened?"
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she's pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase."
~Final Fantasy Dismantled

"After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base&#8230;" ~Final Fantasy VII, Story Playback, Page 111

Cloud's initial encounter with Aerith tells us that he is attracted to her physical appearance. This begins what is sure to follow -- Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith.

Honorable mentions that highlight Cloud and Aerith's "special bond," but do not necessarily prove Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith:

1. Cloud to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon: &#8220;But I&#8217;m......we&#8217;re here for you, right?&#8221;

2. Cloud and Aerith share their first of two dates at Green Park in the Sector 6 Slum: &#8220;Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in &#8220;FFVII&#8221; as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.&#8221; ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix

3. Cloud laughs for only Aerith in Final Fantasy VII.

4. Barret observes that Aerith is the first person Cloud is willing to fight for besides himself.

Debatable points:

1. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback in Aerith's house after meeting her. Was this a clue from SE that with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud could be changing his mind about the idea of having an older girlfriend? What else could have triggered Cloud into this flashback aside from Cloud's romantic infatuation with Aerith?

2. "Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day&#8230;&#8221; ~Nomura, Square Enix

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. So although you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to a fictional creature doesn&#8217;t mean eternal and forever, when the word &#8220;undying&#8221; is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever. Therefore, it does not make sense that Nomura would be referring to Cloud&#8217;s guilt as *undying* when the entire point of Advent Children is to rid Cloud of his guilt.

3. "There&#8217;s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered.&#8221; ~Nomura, Square Enix

Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII&#8217;s universe. So what does this ending tell us about Cloud and Aerith's relationship?

4. SE views Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple in Final Fantasy VII because they give them romantic cameos in Final Fantasy IX and Final Fantasy Airborne Brigade.

5. Final Fantasy Dissidia: At the end of Dissidia, Cloud is seen entering a flower field. This flower field is eerily similar to the flower fields Aerith has appeared in, and the flower field shown during the ending credits of Advent Children. Cloud is also holding Aerith&#8217;s Holy materia. Before this takes place, it is stated by Zidane that each character is, &#8220;&#8230;returning to where we&#8217;re supposed to be.&#8221; Cloud is supposed to be with Aerith, which is why he returns to a flower field. Interestingly, Squall of Final Fantasy VIII is seen leaving when a white feather falls from the sky. This feather represents Rinoa. The parallels between Cloud x Aerith and Squall x Rinoa are obvious. During the game Cloud also says, &#8220;The one I really want to meet is&#8230;&#8221; And although he doesn&#8217;t finish his sentence, given the ending scene of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to meet in the

6. "It was the sound of Cloud&#8217;s heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith&#8217;s death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth&#8230;There was nothing she could do about Cloud&#8217;s suffering and the pain ached in her heart.&#8221; ~Maiden of the Planet, Square Enix

Cloud&#8217;s heart cracked when Aerith died.

7. &#8220;Cloud was her friend, her *koibito* (lover in Japanese) - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.&#8221; ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix

8. SE pays homage to the hand reach scene in Advent Children, a scene where Cloud expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land (ie: his place of supreme happiness). Cloud is also shown riding around flower fields at the end of AC/C -- flower fields that are expliclity stated to represent Aerith. Is Cloud continuing his search to be with Aerith in the Promised Land?
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
I swore I wasn't going to respond anymore, but...C'MON! You are "looking at the script for what it is"? Well that is some bad reading comprehension if you ask me. Cloud saying he is a man and it would be hard to get in there wasn't an "ah well, I tried...I hope Tifa doesn't get taken advantage of too much in there. I'm going to go grab a bite in Wall Market." He was thinking out loud and was trying to think of an alternative way in. He wasn't giving up. He was just trying to think of a better plan, which Aerith provides.
Let's look at the scrip:

Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look. I'll tell Tifa about you."
[Aerith is the one who decides to rescue Tifa]

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"
[Cloud tells Aerith not to go in because he knows that it's a dangerous place for a young woman]

Aerith: "Why?"
Cloud: "You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith: "Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"
[Aerith invites Cloud to go with her to rescue Tifa.]

Cloud: "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion."
[After Aerith's invitation, Cloud thinks of two reasons why he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa.]

(Aerith is giggling.)
Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......
First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright....
What's so funny, Aerith?"

[But then, after thinking about it some more, Cloud decides that despite his reservations, he can't let Aerith go in alone because he's worried about her safety. After agreeing to the find Tifa because he's worried about Aerith's safety, he suggests that the first course of action is to see if Tifa is alright.]

Aerith: "Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way."
Cloud: "WHAT!?"
(Aerith speaks to the doorman.)
Aerith: "Just wait. I've got a cute friend I want to bring."

[Aerith thinks of an alternative way to sneak Cloud in. Without Aerith's alternative plan, Cloud would have been left cold in his tracks.]

Cloud: "Aerith! I can't....."
Aerith: "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

[Although Aerith asks Cloud if he is worried about Tifa to convince him to dress up like a woman, it is clear, based on what Cloud actually stated himself, that he is worried about Aerith going alone]
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
One can argue that Cloud would have decided to rescue Tifa on his own and without Aerith. But there's no way to prove it. The only thing Cloud admits to is wanting to go back to Tifa's bar.

Based on what we know from the scrip, it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that convinced him to rescue Tifa:
"But, I just can't let you go in alone..."

It was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that not only convinced him to push aside his reservations about being a man and causing a commotion, but also made him agree to dress up like a woman so Aerith wouldn't have to go, "ALONE".

The script says so.

Ah, BB, you're back!
Well, I had been asking you about this: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=535592&postcount=6348
I'll have to get to that post when I have more time. :)
 

Akai Hana

Unknown Creature
AKA
Akai Hana, Komori Yui
One can argue that Cloud would have decided to rescue Tifa on his own and without Aerith. But there's no way to prove it. The only thing Cloud admits to is wanting to go back to Tifa's bar.

Based on what we know from the scrip, it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that convinced him to rescue Tifa:
"But, I just can't let you go in alone..."

It was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that not only convinced him to push aside his reservations about being a man and causing a commotion, but also made him agree to dress up like a woman so Aerith wouldn't have to go, "ALONE".

The script says so.


I'll have to get to that post when I have more time. :)


Hm, BB. What about mine though? Am I not worth your time? :( :'(
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
BTW just to add information, I've seen posts in tumblr saying Cloud and Aerith are in wedding attires in Brigade. After some research here's what I found.
wedding%20kimonos.jpg
The "emperor/empress" attire

noushinyoubou.jpg


source said:
Is the name used to define the colour combinations used for HEIAN (794 to 1185) period formal female court attire. During this period in the Japanese Court the ladies-in-waiting, princesses and empresses wore a specific style of dress that was based originally on a Chinese style of dress.


So there's not necessarily emperor/empress (as in husband and wife thing) or attending a wedding. The outfit can be used for weddings, but it's not a designated wedding attire as it can be used for a variety of other purposes. It's in wikipedia too. Source: http://www.fuyuya.com/kasane/
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I was under the impression that they were called Emperor and Empress. Has this thing REALLY been all about the clothes?

I was also kind of hoping Shroudy would stick around this time... I know a lot of people don't like him but I kind of wanted to continue our conversation...
 
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Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
I was under the impression that they were called Emperor and Empress. Has this thing REALLY been all about the clothes?

I was also kind of hoping Shroudy would stick around this time... I know a lot of people don't like him but I kind of wanted to continue our conversation...

Well someone in tumblr posted they're in a wedding attire so I did some research just for the sake of it.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Well someone in tumblr posted they're in a wedding attire so I did some research just for the sake of it.

ooooh, okay I gotcha... for a moment there I thought someone royally over reacted to the clothes... which okay kinda DID happen but... this damn LTD :nah:
 
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