The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[OneWingedDemon]

I ship Cloud and Aerith because Aerith is the first person in the game Cloud cares for besides himself.

Stopped reading right there.

It is clear that Cloud was attracted to Aerith physically ("impressive eyes", smile a "good purchase".) But it is also clear that Cloud was attracted to Aerith's personality, too, because he laughed with her as well.

Stop for a minute and apply this to real life. The number of people in love with you magically skyrockets. Dayum~

Aerith was able to bring out a side of Cloud that no one else was.

Cloud never laughed or joked with anyone else?

I see a lot of vague statements like "opened up" and "warmed up" and no substance. Cloud doesn't "open up". With one exception - Tifa. That's why it's a big deal when he does...to Tifa. Even Sephiroth knows dis shit. Cloud and Aeris' interactions aren't as unique as you think. We've gone through this before. He doesn't do anything special with her that you don't see him sharing with some other friend at some point in the game. Or that other members of AVALANCHE don't share with each other. What, he tries to comfort her when she feels down? AVALANCHE does this constantly. Tries to rescue her?

The only exception here again is Tifa.

Both Barret and Tifa observe this romantic relationship and make remarks about it

Oh ja, like what?
What about half of the FFVII population remarking on Cloud and Tifa, including Barret and..oh yeah, the rest of AVALANCHE?

Cloud continues to carry these feelings for Aerith even to this very day.

In your fanfics maybe.

 

[Geostigma]

Why couldnt you all leave this thread alone so the beast could stay in its eternal slumber?

Look at what you have done! I hope you are all ashamed.

 

[Knuxson]

The problem with most of your argument is you evidence events that took place during disc 1. This is before Cloud remembers how he felt about Tifa. If Cloud had been himself, I am not sure if it would have been so easy for him to be attracted to Aerith. I think they still may have formed a connection, but, as Cloud explains in the lifestream, he pined after Tifa for pretty much his entire life. I have a long post about it a couple of pages back.

As for the stuff you list in red in your post concerning circa AC events, I don't think they are very strong arguments. I don't really take what Nomura said very seriously, as it seems like they enjoy that the debate still goes on. In fact, I think that is why they avoided showing Cloud and Tifa as a couple outright in AC. Instead, they used subtle hints such as living together and referring to each other as family. This is especially apparent if you read Case of Tifa. Many aspects of Case of Tifa show a couple living together, but Cloud is already starting to struggle with the guilt issues you see him have in AC, which complicates their relationship since he is evasive about how he feels.

Also, his bed in his office doesn't look like his normal sleeping bed, but more like something he might crash in when he gets back late from a delivery so he doesn't wake Tifa or the kids up. Case of Tifa has a passage that strongly hints they sleep together, since Tifa asks him a question while he is sleeping and there is no mention of her entering his room or anything.

Also, during the AC sequences where Aerith talks to Cloud, he doesn't say "but I love you and now you are gone." He says "but I let you die." Translation: "I was too weak to save you," which is an issue he has dealt with his whole life. He wanted to join Soldier because he felt like he was too weak to save Tifa on Mt. Nibel. In AC, he is sleeping at the church because: (1) he is dying; (2) he feels guilty for letting Aerith die; and (3) he is distancing himself from his family (those that he cares about the most in the world) because he feels inadequate and/or does not deserve them.

I will never claim that Cloud did not care for Aerith, but there is practically no evidence that he will always love her and never move on. There is WAY more evidence that he did indeed move on and start a new life with Tifa. This is what AC was all about; Cloud moving on. This is best symbolized with Cloud standing in the pool in the Church at the end of AC among all his friends while he watches Aerith and Zack walk out of the church. They are walking out because he is letting go of them. Obviously he will never forget them, but he has realized that he has to live for now and not dwell on the past.

P.S. I also like the part of AC where Cloud arrives to the Bahamut battle. He tells Tifa "I feel lighter. Maybe it was all that dilly dallying." Paraphrasing a bit there. This seems to me to be an apology for how he had been acting (depressed and giving up). He is essentially saying "I'm sorry, but I am back to make things right." While he is saying this, you see this joyful smile start to emerge on Tifa's face because she knows he has come to his senses.

 

[OniRaitei]

I actually spent a long time crafting and re-writing THIS post to make what I consider a very compelling argument/essay in favor of Cloud x Aerith. It's nice to hear a Cloti say my arguments are sound.

There's a reason this is a love triangle, and I think disc 1 proves, without a doubt, that Cloud loves Aerith romantically.

I give you a few feet and you take a mile. Your arguments are compelling, but, as Ryushikaze just said, require a lot of assumptions. You've merely pointed out more of these grey areas to me and got me to agree that there really was potential between them despite the short period in which they knew each other. This is something I have never believed before, and I do give you great credit for it.

Also, I missed this last night, but you messed up:

And I'll just say that it is not definitive that Cloud and Tifa are together after even the high affection Highwind scene. Since I've never debated with you, here is a previous post on why I believe nothing after the Highwind scene proves Cloud and Tifa turned their mutual feelings into a relationship:

Let us all take note that you agree that Cloud and Tifa's feelings are mutual.

So answer me honestly: what is this "world" that Cloud and Aerith were forming together and why would Tifa (as someone who romantically likes Cloud) get jealous over this "world" if it wasn't romantic in nature? And please, take into consideration the way Cloud responded to his first two encounters with Aerith, his conversation with Marlene, and his desire to risk his life to save someone he just met (ie: the first person Barret saw Cloud care for besides himself).

Tifa's assumptions don't mean Cloud loves Aeris. Neither does telling Marlene that he hopes Aeris likes him or his willingness to save her from Shinra. You are making huge leaps that even Aerith herself didn't make.

I now undoubtedly love Cloud much more than Zack. But Cloud is clueless.
- page 159, FFVII Dismantled

As for the world they were forming: They were forming it. As in, it was in the process of being formed. Not yet complete.
That world ended with Aerith's death. Whatever potential was there is gone. Now Cloud and Tifa are forming there own "world."

And again, answer me honestly: why does Cloud show such a strong emotional reaction during Aerith's death?

To be very honest and concise: Because she was his friend and she died in front of him. He failed as her protector and he blames himself.

Hey, when you have multiple Cloti's saying the same thing to me over-and-over again, I end up responding the same way to multiple people

More like you give something of a response and then tack on half a page worth of unsolicited Clerith material that doesn't pertain to what you were responding to.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I thought about responding, but A.) I'm kicking myself for engaging in even a single post of debate with BlankBeat because damn it I should know better and B.) OniRaitei seems to have said it better than I woulda bothered with anyway

 

[I Am Not Me]

It is clear that Cloud was attracted to Aerith physically ("impressive eyes", smile a "good purchase".) But it is also clear that Cloud was attracted to Aerith's personality, too, because he laughed with her as well.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Stopped reading right there.

Stopped replying after this:

Cloud knew there were more reactors, and Tifa is a huge part of AVALANCHE. I'd say Cloud knew Tifa was willing to keep paying him more and more money for each mission, so of course he wanted to save the person who was willing to agree to his payment demands.

It truly fascinates me why BB's interpretation of Clerith romance requires Cloud to be a total asshole to Tifa. I mean LOL, as long as he's having romantic feelings to a woman he met a few hours ago, it doesn't matter that he doesn't care if his childhood friend is being taken to prostitution. Congratulations for the excellent analysis of Cloud's character!

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Oh, the emotional reaction to the murder of a friend, after having had a hand in it.

How could we forget that declaration of unending love?

Do you know how fucking shocking it would be to be standing right there while someone guts your friend? There are people irl popping pills like Skittles as we speak because of shit like this. Cloud's reaction is pretty fucking mild, comparatively.

See also Zack's death.

 

[Unlucky]

It truly fascinates me why BB's interpretation of Clerith romance requires Cloud to be a total asshole to Tifa.

It has become a standard prerequisite. Same goes with Aerith being a total cunt. It's ironic how some people who adore her so much are the ones depicting her to be a vile, terribly-written character in their 'canon'.

 

[jazzflower92]

It has become a standard prerequisite. Same goes with Aerith being a total cunt. It's ironic how some people who adore her so much are the ones depicting her to be a vile, terribly-written character in their 'canon'.

Yep, Fan Dumb ruins canon characters for the worse.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

what is this "world" that Cloud and Aerith were forming together and why would Tifa (as someone who romantically likes Cloud) get jealous over this "world" if it wasn't romantic in nature?

"It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn’t know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought." - CoT

Then she's also jealous of a bike I suppose. Le sigh~

She loves him and naturally wants to be a part of everything in his world, especially when in the game she also wanted to keep an eye on him to see wtf was wrong with him. She saw Cloud and Aeris quickly forming their own friendship and she was aware of Aeris' interest in Cloud, even if Cloud himself was clueless (Aeris' words). Of course she had all kinds of complicated feelings~ about dat.

Aeris is my friend but she's also sweet on mah man. Dayum~

That doesn't mean there is anything to be jealous of. Obviously, as the game reveals to us.
Both girls know Cloud is clueless. There is no actual romantic relationship to be jealous of when Cloud himself does not acknowledge one. It's just Tifa's own insecurities at play here. She does envy Aeris' ability to be forthright, as she reveals during the date.

 

[Morana]

It has become a standard prerequisite. Same goes with Aerith being a total cunt. It's ironic how some people who adore her so much are the ones depicting her to be a vile, terribly-written character in their 'canon'.

Well, all is fair in love and war so it is okay for Cloud and Aerith to be terrible to Tifa because they are in love. It is not like they would be heartless at all.

Butchering of the characters and their personalities is something that bothers me the most about this long and apparently unending LTD.

 

[BlankBeat]

Stop for a minute and apply this to real life. The number of people in love with you magically skyrockets. Dayum~

All I'm saying is that Cloud believing Aerith's eyes were "impressive" and that her smile was a good "purchase" laid the foundation for a mutual romantic relationship between them. Typically, romantic relationships start when two people find each other physically attractive. Therefore, the initial attratction Cloud had for Aerith laid the foundation and began a series of events that led Cloud to eventually falling in love with Aerith.

Cloud never laughed or joked with anyone else?

"At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front. After it is revealed that he was never in SOLDIER, and he begins to act like himself, but he still doesn’t show his emotions very much. The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness.” ~Final Fantsay VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This is significant. Aerith was able to evoke laugher from Cloud despite Jenova’s control over his consciousness. It doesn’t make sense that Jenova would make Cloud flirt and laugh with Aerith, and we’ve already established that parts of the ‘real’ Cloud were there during his interaction with Aerith. Therefore, it is very significant that Aerith was the only character that was able to evoke laugher from Cloud. And it’s even more impressive that she was able to do it while Jenova was in control of his consciousness.

Aerith brought out something in Cloud that no one else was able to do. Tifa wasn’t even able to make Cloud laugh when Jenova WASN’T in control of his consciousness. The fact that Aerith was able to make Cloud laugh when Jenova WAS in control of Cloud’s consciousness tells us Aerith could do what no one else could — bring laughter, happiness, and joy to a man who was profoundly messed up.

Cloud and Aeris' interactions aren't as unique as you think. We've gone through this before. He doesn't do anything special with her that you don't see him sharing with some other friend at some point in the game.

Date in the park. Cosmo Canyon. Golden Saucer date. In fact, during disc 1, Aerith is the character Cloud spends most of his one-on-one time with.

Tries to rescue her?

The only exception here again is Tifa.

Cloud rescuing Tifa is nothing like him rescuing Aerith. Even Barret observes this:

Cloud: I didn’t want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…
Barret: Heh, heh, heh.
Cloud: What is it? You’re givin’ me the willies.
Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.
Cloud: Who cares if you’re impressed…?

Oh ja, like what?
What about half of the FFVII population remarking on Cloud and Tifa, including Barret and..oh yeah, the rest of AVALANCHE?

In your fanfics maybe.

While both Aerith and Tifa are alive, people seem to notice Cloud and Aerith relationship, not Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Maybe that's because Cloud decides to flirt with Aerith in-front of Tifa and do things he normally didn't do until Aerith came into his life?

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world." ~Final Fantasy 10th Anniversary Ultimania

“Occasionally, Tifa shows a little jealousy towards Cloud and Aerith.” - FFVII Kaitai Shinsho / Dismantled

Tifa is jealous over the special bond her love rival developed with the man she loves. She even lets her "peevish" feelings slip when she witnesses Cloud and Aerith flirting. Funny that Cloud would flirt with Aerith in-front of Tifa.

It seems even Tifa sees what Clotis are intent on denying -- Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith.

--------------------

The problem with most of your argument is you evidence events that took place during disc 1. This is before Cloud remembers how he felt about Tifa. If Cloud had been himself, I am not sure if it would have been so easy for him to be attracted to Aerith. I think they still may have formed a connection, but, as Cloud explains in the lifestream, he pined after Tifa for pretty much his entire life. I have a long post about it a couple of pages back.

Cloud really got to know Aerith after Jenova mimicked Cloud's real memories from Tifa. And when Cloud becomes his real self, he is still emotionally invested in Aerith based on the time they shared while he was messed up. Therefore, it is irrelevant that he wasn't fully himself while he got to know Aerith.

I don't really take what Nomura said very seriously,

A creator saying he has no idea if the canon couple is in a relationship shouldn't be taken very seriously. Obviously.

Oh, and nothing in AC contradicts his statement or proves Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. What is a single piece of romantic evidence between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene?

Also, his bed in his office doesn't look like his normal sleeping bed, but more like something he might crash in when he gets back late from a delivery so he doesn't wake Tifa or the kids up. Case of Tifa has a passage that strongly hints they sleep together, since Tifa asks him a question while he is sleeping and there is no mention of her entering his room or anything.

It is irrelevant how the bed looks. It is a place to sleep. Period. I do not think SE would include a random place to sleep in Cloud's bedroom for no reason. It is only logical to think that Cloud sleeps in the bed that is found in his room.

In AC, he is sleeping at the church because: (1) he is dying; (2) he feels guilty for letting Aerith die; and (3) he is distancing himself from his family (those that he cares about the most in the world) because he feels inadequate and/or does not deserve them.

Cloud visits Aerith's Church before getting Geostigma.

They are walking out because he is letting go of them. Obviously he will never forget them, but he has realized that he has to live for now and not dwell on the past.

Why does Cloud continue to have flowers that represent Aerith on his desk at the end of the movie?

Why does SE show Cloud riding around a flower field that is said to represent Aerith in both the AC and ACC endings?

What romantic evidence of a relationship is shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC? Answer: N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

If Cloud and Aerith were not a romantic couple from FFVII/AC, why did SE make them Emperor and Empress? Why did SE include a romantic cameo of them in FFIX?

SE says there is "something between them [Cloud x Aerith]"? What is this "something"? Why would SE say this about two friends...? Could Cloud's "mysterious feeling" from Cloud and Aerith's first encounter (when he found her physically attractive) been love at first sight? Is this the "special bond" Tifa is jealous of and Barret observes?

--------------------

Let us all take note that you agree that Cloud and Tifa's feelings are mutual.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Tifa's assumptions don't mean Cloud loves Aeris. Neither does telling Marlene that he hopes Aeris likes him or his willingness to save her from Shinra. You are making huge leaps that even Aerith herself didn't make.

Tifa's assumptions are significant because it lends support to what Clerith's have also observed from Cloud's actions around Aerith (laughing with her, thinking she's physically attractive, willing to risk his life to save her, etc.). Barret's observation also lends support to the Clerith perspective, too.

And what else does Cloud telling that to Marlene mean? Please. Just use common sense. And don't forget, before he told Marlene that, Cloud agreed to protect Aerith for the price of a date and he thought she was physically attractive. When you look at the order and progression of events, it is not hard to understand the significance of what Cloud told Marlene.

As for the world they were forming: They were forming it. As in, it was in the process of being formed. Not yet complete.
That world ended with Aerith's death. Whatever potential was there is gone. Now Cloud and Tifa are forming there own "world."

To me, the LTD revolves around the question: Who does Cloud love? *NOT* Who does Cloud end up with?

Cloud can love both Aerith and Tifa, depending on your interpretation. And Nomura doesn't even know if Cloud and Tifa end up together after the HAHW scene. If he doesn't know, you shouldn't pretend you know, either.

The entire point I'm making is that both pairings are canon because there is evidence that tells us Cloud loves BOTH women.

 

[I Am Not Me]

So we're gonna ignore Cloud laughing with Zack, huh? Must not be helping your case. Okay.

See also Cloud laughed with Zack when he was still his true self.
See also Cloud laughed with Aerith while Jenova was in control.



SIGNIFICANT!

Why does Cloud continue to have flowers that represent Aerith on his desk at the end of the movie?

Why did Cloud put Zack's Buster sword, which he considers Zack's grave, in the church in the middle of Aerith's flowers?

Why does SE show Cloud riding around a flower field that is said to represent Aerith in both the AC and ACC endings?

Why did SE make a fully voiced extra (Reminiscing of FF7) where Cloud talks to Tifa about closing the bar to hang out, right in front of these flower fields?

Also, why did SE remove Aerith in the ACC ending?

What romantic evidence of a relationship is shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC? Answer: N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

What romantic evidence of a relationship is shown between Cloud and Aerith in AC/C? Answer: N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

What romantic evidence of a relationship is shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC? Answer: Cohabiting together. Tifa being able to scold Cloud into saving the children instead of sitting around. Cloud holding her when he found her (also a call-back to the numerous times he held her in the compilation against THE ONE time he held Aerith, who was dead then). SE making a slow, symbolized shot of Cloud and Tifa laying in Aerith's flowers

Spoiler: as seen here

(the url for this is a clerith site, we can't even search Cloti without seeing your sites. Clotis are definitely rapids.)

.

Why would SE go through the trouble of making that in AC and stretching it a bit longer in ACC?

Wait... don't tell me... it has something to do with Aerith! Must be the flowers.

If Cloud and Aerith were not a romantic couple from FFVII/AC, why did SE make them Emperor and Empress? Why did SE include a romantic cameo of them in FFIX?

If Cloud and Tifa were not a romantic couple from FFVII/ACC/CC/BC/DC, why did SE make them compliment each other in their AC outfits in Dissidia, with full-on special sparkles that appear only when they fight together? Must be fanservice! Why did SE write a backstory in Dissidia Duodecim that calls back to Cloud's promise to Tifa in FFVII, where he saves her, where Tifa calls him a hero, where he reacts to being called a hero, and

Spoiler

where he risks his life (actually he full on died) to save Tifa from Chaos

all the while Cloud being in the opposite team that's supposed to be fighting Tifa? Must be TRUE FRIENDSHIP! They have to laugh together and be Emperor/Empress to be a valid couple!

And these are them actually being Cloud and Tifa as opposed to being references.

SE says there is "something between them [Cloud x Aerith]"? What is this "something"? Why would SE say this about two friends...? Could Cloud's "mysterious feeling" from Cloud and Aerith's first encounter (when he found her physically attractive) been love at first sight? Is this the "special bond" Tifa is jealous of and Barret observes?

Maybe they were attracted to each other. It could have been love at first sight. It could have been he thought she was the slum drunk. Maybe Tifa had feelings for Cloud and was jealous of him hanging with a prettier, girlier girl than her. Maybe she also cried for Aerith when she died, stroked her face, and had to have Cloud comfort her about it in CoT. Maybe Tifa was jealous because she had the hots for Aerith.

Why did SE make Crisis Core? Why did SE upgrade AC to compliment Crisis Core? Why did SE add more Zack? Why did SE parallel Zack to Denzel and Aerith to Tifa? Why did SE put Aerith's flowers on Zack's grave?

Not sure why this makes Cloti invalid. It's not like Cloud can't move on and love Tifa after the events of the game. Is that how the real world works? Is that what was shown in AC/C? Do people really move on? Is Cloud people?

FIND OUT IN THE NEXT INSTALLMENT OF "LTD BS QUESTIONS"! WITH YOUR HOST, MEIMEI, THE MEAN CLACK!



Addendum:

The entire point I'm making is that both pairings are canon because there is evidence that tells us Cloud loves BOTH women.

Then why do you keep putting down any evidence of Cloud loving Tifa and having a relationship with her?

You should just try to boost up evidence for Aerith then. There is no need to put down Tifa (and Zack) along the way.

You said before that your stand was both couples are interpretation. Now both couples are canon?

Honesty is the best policy. Or was that politeness? Punctuality?

 

[Strangelove]

i don't understand the use of the word 'canon' when it applies to both couples at the same time. i thought that meant properly established and actually happens in the story.

polygamy?

or is this the 'both are possible (but my favourite is the more official one)' type of 'canon'?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Both are canon means that as Aerith and Tifa loves Cloud he loved them both in return , That's what I think.

And BB just admitted he loved the both, but then he has this standard with Tifa that there should be a explicitly stated actual continuous romantic relationship after feelings are revealed, which is never actually done to any FF couple as far as I know. Even Tifa being described as a koibito is not enough. I can go on.

 

[Knuxson]

I don't want to rehash a lot of what I have already said in my previous posts, as I think they sum up what I think about this whole thing. So, BlankBeat, I will urge you to look at my previous posts again, especially the one where I talk about the love triangle as a plot device/storytelling element.

However, I do want to point out that you don't even need any of the compilation or ultimanias or quotes from Nomura to figure this love triangle thing out. It's right there in the OG, the original story. To sum up my previous post on this:

• 
  On disc 1 there is a love triangle where both Aerith and Tifa are attracted to Cloud. It is ambiguous how Cloud feels, although the writers do push Aerith and Cloud together during disc 1 for reasons I previously laid out. But he obviously did care about her deeply.

• 
  Aerith dies and shortly after Cloud regains his real self. He expresses to Tifa in the lifestream that he loved her since childhood. They emerge from the lifestream hand in hand (the shot, if you remember, where they are rising back up, which with the old graphics is a little harder to tell, but they are joined at the hands).

• 
  Before the final battle, Cloud and Tifa spend a final night together and, no matter which scene you get, wake up cuddled up to each other.
  

Personally, I would rather rely on the story the original game tells more than anything else. But the compilation only strengthens Cloud and Tifa as a couple anyway. By the way, I can't say I speak for everyone on this, but don't take my disagreement with you personally. I just think you really need to look at the story as a whole, rather than relying mostly on disc 1 events and quotes about how Cloud felt about Aerith. The whole thing kind of takes a different course after she dies.

 

[OniRaitei]

All I'm saying is that Cloud believing Aerith's eyes were "impressive" and that her smile was a good "purchase" laid the foundation for a mutual romantic relationship between them. Typically, romantic relationships start when two people find each other physically attractive.

Yes.

Therefore, the initial attratction Cloud had for Aerith laid the foundation and began a series of events that led Cloud to eventually falling in love with Aerith.

No. This is just a big assumption that Aerith herself doesn't make.

Date in the park. Cosmo Canyon. Golden Saucer date. In fact, during disc 1, Aerith is the character Cloud spends most of his one-on-one time with.

This might be significant if Cloud himself actually sought out this one-on-one time.

Cloud rescuing Tifa is nothing like him rescuing Aerith. Even Barret observes this:

Cloud: I didn’t want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…
Barret: Heh, heh, heh.
Cloud: What is it? You’re givin’ me the willies.
Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.
Cloud: Who cares if you’re impressed…?

I'm in complete agreement. Nothing alike. Rescuing Aerith did not involve cross dressing and being molested by a group of big sweaty men. Most people would have given up long before doing either of those things.

You are taking Barret's quote out of context. Barret wasn't present for the Tifa rescue and you can be sure Cloud isn't going to volunteer the information.

Tifa is jealous over the special bond her love rival developed with the man she loves. She even lets her "peevish" feelings slip when she witnesses Cloud and Aerith flirting. Funny that Cloud would flirt with Aerith in-front of Tifa.

It seems even Tifa sees what Clotis are intent on denying -- Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith.

Once again:
I now undoubtedly love Cloud much more than Zack. But Cloud is clueless.
- page 159, FFVII Dismantled

It seems Aerith sees what you are intent on denying.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

You miss the point. Your admission that Cloud and Tifa's feelings are mutual makes it hard to take some of your arguments seriously.

Tifa's assumptions are significant because it lends support to what Clerith's have also observed from Cloud's actions around Aerith (laughing with her, thinking she's physically attractive, willing to risk his life to save her, etc.). Barret's observation also lends support to the Clerith perspective, too.

You have moved from "it shows [proves]" to "it lends support."
I'll agree with that. It lends support, but does not prove.

And what else does Cloud telling that to Marlene mean? Please. Just use common sense. And don't forget, before he told Marlene that, Cloud agreed to protect Aerith for the price of a date and he thought she was physically attractive. When you look at the order and progression of events, it is not hard to understand the significance of what Cloud told Marlene.

Common sense doesn't make me jump to the conclusion that he is in love with her. It suggests to me that Cloud likes her and there is the potential for romance.

To me, the LTD revolves around the question: Who does Cloud love? *NOT* Who does Cloud end up with?

That is rather convenient since Aerith died. Fortunately we have answers to both questions.

The entire point I'm making is that both pairings are canon because there is evidence that tells us Cloud loves BOTH women.

But Aerith died.

To be honest, sometimes I'm tempted to quote your entire posts and respond with two words: "Aerith died."

By the way, I can't say I speak for everyone on this, but don't take my disagreement with you personally.

Same here. It isn't anything personal. I'm just having some fun.

 

[Dashell]

Getting paid could have been his primary motivation for rescuing Tifa

That's the saddest thing I ever read
To seriously imply that Cloud ONLY worked for Tifa and ONLY wanted to save Tifa for money is disgusting. Even if you don't think he loves her romantically, you can't deny their friendship. Of course he wanted to help Tifa. He cares about her. Just like he cares for all his friends.

You don't have to knock down EVERY single Cloti point trying to prove Cloud doesn't care for Tifa at all. A lot of Cloti points work with friendship... what's the point in trying to say he doesn't care for her at all? It's just ridiculous


As for the emperor/empress thing... maybe he married her for her money

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just when you thought this whole thing couldn't get more stupid.

 

[Dashell]

Just when you thought this whole thing couldn't get more stupid.

I didn't think my post was that bad

 

[Morana]

Why is so hard to accept that Cloud loves Tifa even only as a friend? Where is threat in that? Does he have to hate her for Clerith to work? Why is Tifa's and Cloud's mere friendship a threat? I seriously, don't understand.

 

[Kittie]

Why is so hard to accept that Cloud loves Tifa even only as a friend? Where is threat in that? Does he have to hate her for Clerith to work? Why is Tifa's and Cloud's mere friendship a threat? I seriously, don't understand.

I'm in total agreement with you, Morana: I don't understand it, either. How Cloud and Tifa's friendship can be viewed as some kind of possible threat goes beyond all sense of reason.

On a further note, I have no problem with Cloud's attraction to both Aerith and Tifa in the OG. Kitase liked the idea of a hero who wavered between two heroines, who in turn loved him romantically. Looking at it objectively, I believe the wavering stops at a certain point in the OG, especially, given the Compilation, that Cloud's presently living with Tifa.

Regardless of such, I have no intention to debate Cloud's affections, much less discuss whom he loves most; however, I will say that, if Cloud is living with a woman who obviously loves him, while he's pining away after someone who's dead, and he's aware of the aforementioned living woman's feelings for him, then he has to be one of the biggest douchebags on this side of fiction.

It's sad for me to confess this, but the fandom has given me a very negative impression of Cloud's character over the years, even though I know to look beyond it, at official sources. If Cloud was really how some people of the fandom paint him as being, then both Aerith and Tifa deserve far better. That's my two cents on this whole LTD, anyway.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Just when you thought this whole thing couldn't get more stupid.

Dude, c'mon. NOBODY (at least nobody here at TLS) thought the stupid this debate breeds had any sort of upper limit But yeah, definitely reaching new highs of herp and derp if "Cloud was only in it for the money!" is the argument of the day.

 

[BlankBeat]

So we're gonna ignore Cloud laughing with Zack, huh? Must not be helping your case. Okay.

See also Cloud laughed with Zack when he was still his true self.
See also Cloud laughed with Aerith while Jenova was in control.

Since the LTD revolves around Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, it is significant that only Aerith (not Tifa) was able to bring laughter from Cloud. And it's more impressive that Aerith was able to bring out this side of Cloud while he was under Jenova's control.

Also -- Aerith was the only person that made Cloud laugh in Final Fantasy VII (which is what the quote I provided stated).

What romantic evidence of a relationship is shown between Cloud and Aerith in AC/C? Answer: N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Cloti's are saying Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene. Cerltih's aren't claiming that Cloud and Aerith are in a relationship after the HAHW scene. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the side of the Cloti's to prove that Cloud and Tifa turned their mutual feelings into a romantic relationship during AC.

What romantic evidence of a relationship is shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC? Answer: Cohabiting together.

Cloud and Tifa are cohabiting in a place that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar. (Some) Cloti's make it seem as though Cloud and Tifa bought a new house together with a white picket fence. EDIT: Cloud also has his own room with a bed in it.

Cid and Shera cohabited together in FFVII and we know they had feelings for each other. Yet were they a couple during FFVII?

Tifa being able to scold Cloud into saving the children instead of sitting around. Cloud holding her when he found her (also a call-back to the numerous times he held her in the compilation against THE ONE time he held Aerith, who was dead then). SE making a slow, symbolized shot of Cloud and Tifa laying in Aerith's flowers

Spoiler: as seen here

(the url for this is a clerith site, we can't even search Cloti without seeing your sites. Clotis are definitely rapids.)

.

None of that is definitively romantic.

If Cloud and Tifa were not a romantic couple from FFVII/ACC/CC/BC/DC, why did SE make them compliment each other in their AC outfits in Dissidia, with full-on special sparkles that appear only when they fight together? Must be fanservice! Why did SE write a backstory in Dissidia Duodecim that calls back to Cloud's promise to Tifa in FFVII, where he saves her, where Tifa calls him a hero, where he reacts to being called a hero, and

Spoiler

where he risks his life (actually he full on died) to save Tifa from Chaos

all the while Cloud being in the opposite team that's supposed to be fighting Tifa? Must be TRUE FRIENDSHIP! They have to laugh together and be Emperor/Empress to be a valid couple!

All I'm saying is that what SE has done with Cloud and Aerith, from making them Emperor/Empress, to the FFIX cameo, it is clear that SE views them as a romantic couple in Final Fantasy VII. Why else would SE do those things if they weren't a romantic couple in FFVII?

Maybe Tifa had feelings for Cloud and was jealous of him hanging with a prettier, girlier girl than her.

It specifically states that Tifa was jealous about the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming together that was "different" than the world she had with Cloud.

--------------------

• 
  On disc 1 there is a love triangle where both Aerith and Tifa are attracted to Cloud. It is ambiguous how Cloud feels, although the writers do push Aerith and Cloud together during disc 1 for reasons I previously laid out. But he obviously did care about her deeply.

• 
  Aerith dies and shortly after Cloud regains his real self. He expresses to Tifa in the lifestream that he loved her since childhood. They emerge from the lifestream hand in hand (the shot, if you remember, where they are rising back up, which with the old graphics is a little harder to tell, but they are joined at the hands).

• 
  Before the final battle, Cloud and Tifa spend a final night together and, no matter which scene you get, wake up cuddled up to each other.

And then Cloud expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of the game despite the HAHW scene taking place. Cloud also admits after Aerith's death that he continues to think about Aerith frequently.

--------------------

I'm in complete agreement. Nothing alike. Rescuing Aerith did not involve cross dressing and being molested by a group of big sweaty men. Most people would have given up long before doing either of those things.

There are multiple reasons why Cloud could have decided to rescue Tifa -- she's apart of AVALANCHE (the company Cloud's working for), or she's a childhood friend, or he wanted to let her know that he didn't die from the fall.

Cloud rescuing Aerith, after only having known her for a short while, tells us that Cloud already has strong feelings for her because he's willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met. A girl that he is attracted to both physically and personality-wise.

You are taking Barret's quote out of context. Barret wasn't present for the Tifa rescue and you can be sure Cloud isn't going to volunteer the information.

I've already said why I believe Barret's quote is significant:
Barret's observation, I think, is a very logical observation to make based on the evidence I provided ("impressive eyes", smile a "good purchase", "mysterious feeling", telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, accepting a date as payment, having a flashback in Aerith's house about romantic relationships, etc.)

But even more, Barret's observation was a way for SE to signal to us that Cloud and Aerith have a "special bond", a bond that is obviously laced with romance. Even Tifa agrees with Barret's observation that Cloud and Aerith have a unique relationship in which Cloud is actually showing qualities that he had not shown yet. Cloud and Aerith's relationship is a relationship that Tifa is jealous of because she likes Cloud romantically, which means even Tifa sees Cloud's romantic attraction to Aerith.

Both Barret and Tifa see what should be obvious: Cloud. Likes. Aerith. He likes her a lot. He likes her so much he is willing to risk his life and save her from the Shinra headquarters after only knowing her for a short while. Do you really think Barret's observation is false, especially knowing Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met?

Squaresoft reinforces the obvious romantic attraction between Cloud and Aerith by telling us Tifa let her, "peevish feelings slip" when she observed Cloud and Aerith’s "special bond", and when they had Barret say Aerith was the first person he ever saw Cloud care for besides himself. Why would SE have two characters make observations and comments about Cloud and Aerith's relationship? Why would they have Cloud's other love interest express jealously over the "special bond" and "world" that Cloud and Aerith were forming that was "different" than the relationship she had with Cloud?

Barret’s observation and Tifa's jealously are both a clear indication to the gamer from SE that Aerith must be someone very special and important to Cloud because despite how messed up he is, he truly cares for Aerith as evidenced by his desire to rescue her from the Shinra headquarters.

Barret's observation leads evidence in support of the Clerith relationship in two ways: 1. It is a signal from the creators that Cloud and Aerith have a very special relationship that is causing Cloud to exhibit caring qualities he had not shown yet in the game and 2. It is a very logical conclusion for anyone to make based on the evidence I've provided, which is why he made it

Once again:
I now undoubtedly love Cloud much more than Zack. But Cloud is clueless.
- page 159, FFVII Dismantled

It seems Aerith sees what you are intent on denying.

Just because Cloud is oblivious to Aerith's feelings, doesn't mean he can't develop his own feelings of love for her.

You miss the point. Your admission that Cloud and Tifa's feelings are mutual makes it hard to take some of your arguments seriously.

How? Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her in AC. I guess their mutual feelings weren't that strong, after-all.

But Aerith died.

To be honest, sometimes I'm tempted to quote your entire posts and respond with two words: "Aerith died."

Irrelevant. If a husband died in war, does that stop his wife's love for him?