The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

After all, he is associating his Promised Land(supreme happiness) with meeting and finding a woman who happens to hold romantic feelings for him.

THIS.

OniRaitei, I'll have to get to your response later.

 

[Dashell]

But Cloud didn't know she had romantic feelings for him... and Tidus was on the far plane for a reason

 

[Rhapsody]

OniRaitei:

Tidus never died. Nor did he have any competition for Yuna's affections. Also, if you don't get the perfect ending, Yuna moves on.

Then again, FFX's theme wasn't "life" and about how people do not simply become nothing after death. FFX wasn't about how people's consciousness continue to live on...which, I believe happens to be a very important core aspect of FFVII and the reasoning why Aerith was killed off to begin with. Given that it's FFVII we're talking about here, it's even more of a given that death isn't a barrier. Case in point, Cloud and Aerith's bond continue even two years after her death.

Quexinos:

... Shroudy?

Mind clarifying?

 

[OniRaitei]

OniRaitei:
Then again, FFX's theme wasn't "life" and about how people do not simply become nothing after death. FFX wasn't about how people's consciousness continue to live on...which, I believe happens to be a very important core aspect of FFVII and the reasoning why Aerith was killed off to begin with. Given that it's FFVII we're talking about here, it's even more of a given that death isn't a barrier. Case in point, Cloud and Aerith's bond continue even two years after her death.

I agree.

 

[BlankBeat]

But Cloud didn't know she had romantic feelings for him...

But Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith and he is associating his supreme place of happiness with her.

As Rhaspody points out, a core theme of FFVII is that death is not a barrier. Aerith's death does not stop her relationship with Cloud from continuing.

 

[Geostigma]

But Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith and he is associating his supreme place of happiness with her.

As Rhaspody points out, a core theme of FFVII is that death is not a barrier. Aerith's death does not stop her relationship with Cloud from continuing.

Her death sure as heck isnt preventing Cloud and Tifas relationship from growing either

 

[OniRaitei]

But Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith and he is associating his supreme place of happiness with her.

What? The other half of the quote you just tried to use works against you.

"Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live."

 

[BlankBeat]

Her death sure as heck isnt preventing Cloud and Tifas relationship from growing either

No, Cloud's own actions and Tifa's insecurity over a dead woman are

 

[Geostigma]

No, Cloud's own actions and Tifa's insecurity over a dead woman are

I see your still copy and pasting points you've been proven wrong on.
Classy.

 

[BlankBeat]

I see your still copy and pasting points you've been proven wrong on.
Classy.

Proven wrong according to a bunch of Cloti's that pretty much regurgitate anything Hawk has written.

How original

 

[Lex]

You seem to be forgetting that the vast majority of us aren't actually Cloti's, we just know what canon means and don't cherry pick quotes to suit our needs.

 

[BlankBeat]

You seem to be forgetting that the vast majority of us aren't actually Cloti's, we just know what canon means and don't cherry pick quotes to suit our needs.

Got a response to this yet?

I actually find it offensive that you would try to bring up the FTOIL page in favour of Clerith. You've sunk to a new low, but I fully expect you to continue sinking.

Of the love triangles on SE’s “For The One I Love Page” (FTOIL), Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance (see the first row of images). Since Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa on a page discussing romantic love, the FFVII love triangle is the only unsolved Final Fantasy love triangle.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

EDIT: What have I cherry picked?

What is wrong with my assessment that all of this means Cloud loves Aerith?

Cloud thinks Aerith’s eyes are “impressive” —->
Cloud thinks Aerith’s smile is a “good purchase” —->
Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a “mysterious feeling” —->
Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date —->
Cloud laughs for the first and only time in FFVII with Aerith [he is attracted to her personality] —->
Cloud is triggered into a flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith’s house —->
Cloud and Aerith share an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story —->
Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him —->
Barret observes that Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud cares for besides himself —->
Cloud is willing to risk his life to save a girl he just met —->
Tifa is jealous when she sees CloudxAerith flirting in the Shinra jail cell—->
Cloud says he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon —->
Cloud and Aerith share a date at Golden Saucer —->
SE intentionally includes a “wedding prediction” about Cloud and Aerith’s affinity that becomes “more painful” after Aerith’s death —->
Cloud expresses a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII —->
Cloud visits Aerith’s Church in Advent Children and Tifa’s “complicated feelings” as a woman towards Aerith continue to this very day —->
SE says that Cloud is Aerith’s “koibito” —->
SE includes a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in FFIX —->
SE says that Cloud and Aerith have a “special bond” —->
SE says Cloud wavers between two love interests —->
SE makes Cloud and Aerith Emperor and Empress

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Proven wrong according to a bunch of Cloti's that pretty much regurgitate anything Hawk has written.

How original

Yeah, they really don't have to rely on me, dude. They're capable of drawing sound conclusions on their own.

For what it's worth, by the way, all I really did when I wrote that first big LTD essay four years ago (next month will make it four full years, holy shit) was synthesize everything that others had already gone over. I wrote it in my own words, obviously, but I'm hardly this totem you love to make me out to be.

Yet even if they were looking to me as such, that is not comparable in the slightest to you literally copy-pasting the same arguments, word for word, in response to comments that aren't directly relevant to the shit you copy-paste. Though I will mention that you have been somewhat better about that this time around.

 

[BlankBeat]

Yeah, they really don't have to rely on me, dude. They're capable of drawing sound conclusions on their own.

For what it's worth, by the way, all I really did when I wrote that first big LTD essay four years ago (next month will make it four full years, holy shit) was synthesize everything that others had already gone over. I wrote it in my own words, obviously, but I'm hardly this totem you love to make me out to be.

Yet even if they were looking to me as such, that is not comparable in the slightest to you literally copy-pasting the same arguments, word for word, in response to comments that aren't directly relevant to the shit you copy-paste. Though I will mention that you have done better about that this time around.

Hey, if people are gonna throw nasty statements around, they should expect some in return.

If you don't want to debate with me, don't. Otherwise, I'd appreciate if the personal attacks stopped. Sadly, many of the moderators are in violation of their own rules.

 

[Lex]

My response to that is that you're ignoring the focal point of the entire page which is the TEXT which tells us Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual romantic feelings and does not even breathe in the general direction of Aerith. Her name isn't even anywhere on the page. You know you completely ignored this fact which is why I didn't bother responding, and it's exactly this type of thing that makes you dishonest. You intentionally ignore what doesn't suit you. There have been three examples by people on the past page alone of you using half a quote to suit your agenda instead of the whole thing which doesn't support the nonsense that you're trying to put forward. It's dishonest and angers people, and this is why people are getting pissy with you.

You're behaving like a troll by attempting to pretend you don't understand what you're doing wrong. Furthermore, there's not a person in this thread that copy/pastes their arguments against you. Debating should be about talking about a certain point, agreeing or disagreeing, then moving on. You incessantly repeat the same dishonest, cherry-picked and disproven points over and over and over then claim it's fact right after someone else has debunked it. In short, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

 

[BlankBeat]

My response to that is that you're ignoring the focal point of the entire page which is the TEXT which tells us Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual romantic feelings and does not even breathe in the general direction of Aerith.

Just because Cloud and Aerith did not EXPRESS mutual feelings does not mean they didn't HAVE mutual feelings. How hard of a concept is that to understand?

If the question at the heart of the LTD is: "WHO DOES CLOUD STRIFE LOVE?" it is irrelevant if Cloud and Aerith expressed mutual feelings. The question is NOT which couple expressed mutual feelings, the question is, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

I think I've demonstrated that Cloud did, in-fact, love Aerith Gainsborough.

Her name isn't even anywhere on the page. You know you completely ignored this fact which is why I didn't bother responding, and it's exactly this type of thing that makes you dishonest. You intentionally ignore what doesn't suit you. There have been three examples by people on the past page alone of you using half a quote to suit your agenda instead of the whole thing which doesn't support the nonsense that you're trying to put forward. It's dishonest and angers people, and this is why people are getting pissy with you.

100% WRONG. I addressed Aerith not being mentioned by name starting in the FIRST SENTENCE.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If you don't want to debate with me, don't. Otherwise, I'd appreciate if the personal attacks stopped. Sadly, many of the moderators are in violation of their own rules.

Ah, so you can misrepresent me, but I can't directly respond to you about it. Why am I surprised at yet another example of special pleading from you?

For the record, I am not -- nor will I ever again waste a second of my life in the pursuit of such -- debating with you. I'm simply correcting you.

 

[BlankBeat]

Ah, so you can misrepresent me, but I can't directly respond to you about it. Why am I surprised at yet another example of special pleading from you?

For the record, I am not -- nor will I ever again waste a second of my life in the pursuit of such -- debating with you. I'm simply correcting you.

Hey, it's my opinion (after having read your Cloti biased LTD article) that almost everyone on here regurgitates points you put in your essay. That is my OPINION based on reading your essay and the opinions of posters on this site.

Ironically, I and other Clerith's have been accused of simply regurgitating everything Anastar has ever said.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hey, it's my opinion (after having read your Cloti biased LTD article) that almost everyone on here regurgitates points you put in your essay. That is my OPINION based on reading your essay and the opinions of posters on this site.

You'll be intrigued to learn, then, that opinions can be wrong. Even when someone capitalizes the word.

Ironically, I and other Clerith's have been accused of simply regurgitating everything Anastar has ever said.

I really don't give a fuck/shit/take-your-pick. The only times I have done so were when the accused were linking back to Anastar's site or when they directly quoted her, so what's that got to do with me?

 

[BlankBeat]

You'll be intrigued to learn, then, that opinions can be wrong. Even when someone capitalizes the word.

And it's your opinion that my opinion is wrong.

 

[jazzflower92]

And it's your opinion that my opinion is wrong.

Your at this point in denial.

 

[Lex]

Just because Cloud and Aerith did not EXPRESS mutual feelings does not mean they didn't HAVE mutual feelings. How hard of a concept is that to understand?

If the question at the heart of the LTD is: "WHO DOES CLOUD STRIFE LOVE?" it is irrelevant if Cloud and Aerith expressed mutual feelings. The question is NOT which couple expressed mutual feelings, the question is, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"

I think I've demonstrated that Cloud did, in-fact, love Aerith Gainsborough.

Who said Cloud and Aerith didn't have mutual feelings? When was that said? Who said it? No one said that. Not me, nor anyone else in this thread. However, unlike Cloud and Tifa, they were never expressed nor confirmed with one another. The only thing that's been confirmed is that Cloud and Tifa have mutual romantic feelings. Cloud loves Tifa.

So no, you've demonstrated that you're incapable of seeing the canon beyond Clerith-tinted glasses. You hold Cloti to a standard that you don't hold Clerith, which requires a lot more "interpretation" and "imagination" than Cloti, which is simply obvious and there in the original story and the rest of the Compilation.

100% WRONG. I addressed Aerith not being mentioned by name starting in the FIRST SENTENCE.

Here you've just completely proved my point. I said you ignored the TEXT (i.e. the part that tells us Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings, the only romance mentioned in text on the page, the only part that is actually explicity explained on the page about the main romantic love interest of each protagonist instead of being an offhand reference to another page), and you've misenterpreted it.

Honestly, what is it you hope to gain here? People know your game now, so you can't really fool anyone. I honestly don't get it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And it's your opinion that my opinion is wrong.

So I somehow went back in time, planted the ideas in others' heads to say at a point before I would write my essay, then returned to the present, wrote the essay based on what others had said (i.e. the ideas I had planted) and that brings us to the present?

Is that really what you're arguing for here?

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm really confused on how BB argues that Cloud didn't even care for Tifa in Disc 1 in his cocky persona but then admitted Cloud and Tifa exchanged mutual romantic feelings under the Highwind.

So false Cloud doesn't care for Tifa, but real Cloud loves Tifa? I'm not sure that's helping your anti-Cloti stand.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

And it's your opinion that my opinion is wrong.

See that's where your logic fails - everyone else's opinion is opinion, but only yours carries credibility to be considered fact. This has to be the case for you to define anyone who counters you who defies your opinion as being biased, which of course, you are not. If you can define everyone else as just talking bias, I presume you think you're not, despite believing your opinion is valid - and everyone else's isn't, because its biased. So in the end, everyone has opinions - which are biased - bar you, which is biased, but clearly not in a bad way... but a good way. If you thought you were just a biased fool, then you wouldn't be here trying to convince others they are biased fools and so are you. So you must believe that your bias is more relevant. That's the stumbler, right there.

I've just read four pages and the thing that strikes me is your arguments are based solely on a desire to justify an end. You're not looking to find a logical pathway that will give you a conclusion, you've found the conclusion you want and you're backtracking to justify by searching for every nuance you can twist in the game and/or beyond.

See this is my stickling point, and has been for a long time now. If you're having to cherry pick through a story to justify an answer, you're probably not really looking for the actual answer. Contrary to popular belief, good stories have conclusions that people can see very easily. With the LTD, the makers have made it uber easy by bookending the story with lots of simply, easy to chew clarification.

Cloud was emulating Zack in the middle of breakdown. Zack used to be into that Aeris girl, and vise versa. Cloud was into Tifa. He left his town to prove he was special to her. Aeris died, Cloud breaksdown, his memories resurface of his adoration for Tifa, and his failure to her and her town that in part lead to his breakdown. He goes and lives with her. He sees Aeries in the Lifestream, with Zack. They are happy. So is he. Tifa, Aeries, Zack, Marlene... they all forgive him. He puts his past behind him.

See? In one short paragraph I summed up a whole Compilation, with no twists or turns, no koibitos or quotes. No suggestion Aeris wasn't important to Cloud, or Cloud wasn't attracted/liked Aeris. No speculation to what could have happened/should have happened. Simple breakdown of a logical story of dovetailing romances, past, present and future.

Do I ship. No. Never have, never will. Assert I'm a biased Cloti and you'll look a bit of a clot(i). Use it to slur people's logical points because they don't fit your desires is silly. Don't go there. If they suddenly did a tale where Cloud died and he found himself lost in Aeris' arms, I'd accept that. It could happen. It's fiction, its malleable.

There are open CloudxTifa lovers here. I'm not one of them. I think it works in relation to the story we're given, but they're made up people. All that matters is what we're given and seeing and enjoying the story for what it is.

Soon as you need to prove a story with quotes and facts - either side, it gets trivial. Cloud loves Tifa. He was attracted to Aeris, probably. Zack and Aeris are together in the Lifestream once more. They're happy. That's the story. Did Star Wars confuse you? No? Well really this is about as complicated. It's not rocket science, regardless of what Cid says.