The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Dashell]

Post just to clarify my stance for Que... **ahem**

Aerith loved BOTH Zack and Cloud. The emotion she feels is genuine, but the reasons are suspect, which leads us to the Aerith IN LOVE with Zack and Aerith LOVING the idea of Cloud.

Carry on.

Right I get you now but when you say things like "She had the potential to love Cloud" or "She didn't know Cloud at all" and stuff, it really sounds like you're trying to say she didn't love Cloud at all. But as long as we agree she loved Cloud, that's all I really care about.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

[random]
I have this wall hanging in my room, every single time she looks at it my mom mentions she wants Aerith's dress.

[/random]

 

[Celes Chere]

[random]
I have this wall hanging in my room, every single time she looks at it my mom mentions she wants Aerith's dress.

[/random]

PSH

I love Aerith's CC dress too, btw.

 

[crack]

Of course you would like something completely tacky.

 

[Celes Chere]

Of course you would like something completely tacky.

Why should Caesar just get to stomp around like a giant while the rest of us try not to get smushed under his big feet? Brutus is just as cute as Caesar, right? Brutus is just as smart as Caesar, people totally like Brutus just as much as they like Caesar, and when did it become okay for one person to be the boss of everybody because that's not what Rome is about! We should totally just STAB CAESAR!

 

[crack]

 

[looneymoon]

On wednesdays, we wear pink!

 

[Celes Chere]

 

[looneymoon]

You look upset...

do you wanna do something fun? Do you wanna go to taco bell?

 

[Ryushikaze]

::begins gaining the killing intent::

 

[Dashell]

Okay I'm done being devil's advocate here, I'm hoping I can redeem myself and we can put all this unpleasantness behind us. And I hope you guys DO know I don't hold any hard feelings against anyone for any reason But really I'm done with the Zack/Aerith/Cloud thing now... who cares anyway.

Also lol what?

You can love someone, even romantically, without being IN love with them.

 

[Ite]

Thank god! I would hate to have this thread break off into tangents!!

 

[Dashell]

Also as for tearing Anastar's essay a new one... dunno if I can do that but I'll at least give my thoughts on it. I'm going to spoiler it because it's shit we already discussed to death and there's no point in repeating it... the reason I'm doing it is because I'm sick of hearing about how we "hid" stuff from them.

Spoiler

The issue I take with what the essay is that it says, "On this page it says the High Affection scene is optional, therefore Cloti is optional" and her followers jump in with "and how dare the Clotis hide that from us?" I am really sick of hearing about how it was so horrible of the Clotis to "hide" information from them. What we "hid" was this quote:

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."
(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)

But there are a few problems here. The article says that the low affection scene is "apathetic and ends short" according to a quote by Nojima. I agree with this. So basically, whatever "feelings" were shared, are ONLY shared in the high affection version. This particular quote is MORE confirmation that no feelings are shared in the low affection version.

And so we look at these

---------------------------
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." (CCU, pg. 33)

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."
(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
-----------------------------

So all of these quotes do NOT say "If this" or "IF THAT" they just say, "This is what happened, period." In other words, Square is telling us that no matter what scene the player may have gotten, this is the true canon outcome of that scene. Think of how Vincent and Yuffie is optional, but we know for a fact that they joined the team because they are shown in ACC and DoC and what not. The highwind scene ALSO has a canon outcome. Square has said this numerous times.

For the longest time the Clerith argument was, "It doesn't say WHAT feelings. It could have been feelings of friendship/support/something else. We don't know!" But now here, we have absolute proof of two things

1. The canon outcome of that scene has Cloud and Tifa sharing feelings.
2. They are feeling of romantic love.

It's not that were were "hiding" anything from the Cleriths. We didn't see the Deviations quote and say "Okay we better not post this part, it'll ruin our victory!" NO! Not at all! It's just that we highly overestimated them and expected them to be able to connect the dots.

the end

 

[Strangelove]

Nomjima

Studio BentStuf Ultimanias are published by the same magazine publishers as Famitsu.

Up until its bankruptcy, the Ultimania books were published by DigiCube (after merging with Enix they started publishing them theirselves). The Kaitai Shinsho/Dismantled was published by Enterbrain (Famitsu's publisher), but not the rest.

I was under the impression that the Crisis Core Guide was written by the creators where as the Dengeki profiles were not. The only reason I was ever told that the Dengeki profiles SHOULD be official was because it was in the same magazine with creator interviews and what not.

With the obvious exception of the novel, none of these things would be written by the creators themself.

I dunno, Que, did it? Did Kitase, Nojima and Nomura pen each of those words, or did they just give the basic info and tell Famitsu staff to write with it what they wanted? Does anybody know?

Probably not. The 10th Anniversary Ultimania's were written by Benny Matsuyama and Masayuki Sawada (or something). It'll probably be the same for the rest of them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Studio BentStuf Ultimanias are published by the same magazine publishers as Famitsu.

Actually, SE publishes them.

Again, if the fact they're in a Dengeki magazine is what makes the profiles not count, then we might as well throw out the Crisis Core Complete Guide because it wasn't published by Square. It was published by Famitsu full fucking stop.

This, however, is a great point.

Ah, the BradyGames guide. Well people are mostly apprehensive listening to anything BradyGames says because most of their guides are wrong, and full of shit. They write those guides with the blessing of S-E USA. The creators have minimal involvement at all with them.

The North American strategy guides by BradyGames are highly unreliable. Everything from "Tifa Lockheart" (FFVII strategy guide) to the following nugget of bullshit has come from them (Dirge of Cerberus strategy guide):

After helping Cloud set up his delivery service, Tifa got involved with the displaced youth of Midgar and opened an orphanage. She keeps in close contact with Cloud and Barret and remains the steadying force she always was - or at least tried to be. Although she has a small role in this game, she remains as likable as ever and continues to show the traits that always made her such a great friend.

HOLD ON

Tifa did know the real Cloud. If she didn't then how the fuck would she know he wasn't acting like himself the whole time? Sure she didn't know his stalker tendencies. But to state she didn't know him is BS.

She only knew he wasn't acting like himself because he knew things that she thought he shouldn't and didn't know things he should. Really, Tifa didn't know Cloud much better than Aerith.

All she knew of him was -- like you said -- "that shy awkward boy from back home." And Aerith also knew him to be an awkward, "mixed-up kid" (her own words).

If Tifa's pre-Mideel feelings for Cloud are to be given legitimacy, then so must Aerith's be.

And Aerith and Tifa are miles apart on reasons for liking Cloud. Tifa fell in love with that shy awkward boy from back home. Aerith stalks Cloud because he reminds her of Zack.

Until she stops pursuing him because of his similarities to Zack. If she lost her interest in him once she came to terms with the cause of her initial attraction, there'd be a point to be made here.

She doesn't, though, and so there's not. Tifa's pre-Mideel feelings for Cloud are pretty much on even ground to Aerith's feelings.

As Splintered said, the only significant difference is that Tifa lived long enough to get to know him and actually be in a relationship with him.

Also as for tearing Anastar's essay a new one... dunno if I can do that but I'll at least give my thoughts on it. I'm going to spoiler it because it's shit we already discussed to death and there's no point in repeating it... the reason I'm doing it is because I'm sick of hearing about how we "hid" stuff from them.

Especially since "hid" to these people apparently means "Posted it in public view in the LTD thread at TheLifestream.net and published it in that ginormous FFVII plot FAQ that Glenn Morrow wrote."

Up until its bankruptcy, the Ultimania books were published by DigiCube (after merging with Enix they started publishing them theirselves).

And for clarity's sake, DigiCube was Squaresoft's publishing subsidiary, so the Ultimanias were always published by Square.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

She only knew he wasn't acting like himself because he knew things that she thought he shouldn't and didn't know things he should. Really, Tifa didn't know Cloud much better than Aerith.

All she knew of him was -- like you said -- "that shy awkward boy from back home." And Aerith also knew him to be an awkward, "mixed-up kid" (her own words).

If Tifa's pre-Mideel feelings for Cloud are to be given legitimacy, then so must Aerith's be.



Until she stops pursuing him because of his similarities to Zack. If she lost her interest in him once she came to terms with the cause of her initial attraction, there'd be a point to be made here.

She doesn't, though, and so there's not. Tifa's pre-Mideel feelings for Cloud are pretty much on even ground to Aerith's feelings.

As Splintered said, the only significant difference is that Tifa lived long enough to get to know him and actually be in a relationship with him.

I'm gonna shock everyone here and disagree.

No, Tifa and Aerith do not have even footing where Cloud is concerned. Tifa started to fall for the shy boy that asked her to the well and opened his heart to her to share his dreams of being SOLDIER. THAT is who he is. A shy boy with ambition and dreams, a selfish streak and a mountain of insecurities, but a shy boy that tentatively reveals himself to Tifa that night at the well. She gets to see Cloud before anyone else does. And from that glimmer, her interest in him grows to the point of scanning newspapers and texting the SOLDIER that does show up with questions about him.

So to say the only reason Tifa knew Cloud wasn't Cloud is because he knew things he shouldn't have is crap. Cloud himself showed her who he was by braving rejection and revealing his dream and ultimately making her a promise. That...wasn't the real Cloud? **blinks** I'd beg to differ, and I do.

Also, the footing on Aerith's track is slippery because although she eventually recognizes that she chased a phantom, she never really gets to 'Cloud' because Cloud doesn't get to 'back to Cloud' until after she dies.

Aerith recognizing that he is fucked up does NOT mean she knows him. Why is that so goddamn hard for people to get? She doesn't ever know him because HE doesn't even know HIM while she's alive. I just.... **headdesk**

Which isn't to say her feelings aren't real (see previous long ass posts regarding my opinion on this, if inclined) but to say her emotions are rooted in a similar manner to Tifa's is bullshit.

Tifa started to fall for REAL!Cloud before he became fucked up Cloud. She didn't start falling for him at the beginning of the game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So to say the only reason Tifa knew Cloud wasn't Cloud is because he knew things he shouldn't have is crap.

She doesn't realize things are off, though, until he starts talking about the past in Kalm.

Cloud himself showed her who he was by braving rejection and revealing his dream and ultimately making her a promise. That...wasn't the real Cloud? **blinks** I'd beg to differ, and I do.

He was a kid then. They hadn't had a real conversation since, and she had no real reason to think he would be exactly the same. I was awkward and shy at 14. Still was at 16. Still was at 18. I'm still awkward as fuck, but I'm not shy anymore.

Cloud acting aloof and confident didn't tip her off that something was wrong with him. Again, it's his story in Kalm that did it.

Tifa had a little bit more to go on than Aerith maybe (and that's debatable itself; Aerith could at least be certain -- given her abilities -- that Cloud wasn't himself), but even so, they both reach the same conclusion: things aren't right with Cloud.

Also, the footing on Aerith's track is slippery because although she eventually recognizes that she chased a phantom, she never really gets to 'Cloud' because Cloud doesn't get to 'back to Cloud' until after she dies.

Don't forget that his behavior on Disc 1 isn't identical to Zack's. Parts of him -- those that Tifa would know from childhood, actually -- are still apparent to Aerith, as she recognizes the real him as awkward and shy.

Aerith recognizing that he is fucked up does NOT mean she knows him. Why is that so goddamn hard for people to get?

It's not hard to get at all. But it should be equally easy to follow that some of the real Cloud was expressed in his behavior on Disc 1 -- including his awkwardness and his fondness for motorcycles. We didn't see Cloud necessarily liking things Zack liked, etc.

Tifa started to fall for REAL!Cloud before he became fucked up Cloud. She didn't start falling for him at the beginning of the game.

He was fucked up for the couple of months she was taking care of him at Seventh Heaven, and prior to that, they'd had one real conversation that we know of. What advantage, really, did Tifa have over Aerith in knowing the real Cloud given that Aerith was able to perceive things like his shyness and awkwardness anyway?

I stand by my earlier statement: Tifa knew something was wrong with Cloud because of the things he remembered and didn't remember, not because she knew him so well. I also stand by my statement that Aerith and Tifa had comparable affection for the real him at the time of Aerith's death.

 

[Splintered]

Probably not. The 10th Anniversary Ultimania's were written by Benny Matsuyama and Masayuki Sawada (or something). It'll probably be the same for the rest of them.

Isn't that the same guy as the person who wrote Maiden? If the Ultimania's were not written by the creators, why do we give them more legtimacy than others? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. I didn't know this about the books.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Leave it to Tres to surpass my FF nerd-dom and one up me.

Don't think I didn't notice what you did by choosing to be fucking Chameleon, you bastard. You're trying to usurp me, but it'll NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

She doesn't realize things are off, though, until he starts talking about the past in Kalm.

Really? Because I thought one of the reasons she wanted to keep him around was because she realized early on that he wasn't quite right.

He was a kid then. They hadn't had a real conversation since, and she had no real reason to think he would be exactly the same. I was awkward and shy at 14. Still was at 16. Still was at 18. I'm still awkward as fuck, but I'm not shy anymore.

I'm gonna go with 'no fucking shit' on this one. People change, for sure, but the point was that Tifa (at least once) saw the "real" Cloud. Ever have a really deep heart to heart with someone? Even if you rarely speak again, that bond is there, and couple that with attraction and how much that event meant to Cloud (as is hammered home in the game) then you have something more of a foundation than: "Well, they only talked once". And yes, people change, but as Cloud himself said "not much has changed." He is, essentially, that same boy from Nibleheim.

Cloud acting aloof and confident didn't tip her off that something was wrong with him. Again, it's his story in Kalm that did it.

Really? You're telling me we get no prior indication that Tifa is worried about Cloud or notices something up with him...huh....

Tifa
"You know, I'm relieved you made it back safely."

Cloud
"What's with you all of a sudden? That wasn't even a tough job."

Tifa
"I guess not..."
"You were in SOLDIER."

Tifa
"Cloud, are you feeling all right?"

Cloud
"...yeah... Why?"

Tifa
"No reason. You just look a little tired I guess."
"You'd better go down below."

This is when we first meet her. Immediately the story sets it up that she is worried over him.

Tifa
"Scary... huh."

Cloud
"Too late to be saying that now. Why'd you come along anyway?"

Tifa
"Because..."

(Cloud comes out of his hallucination. The scene changes back to Reactor
No. 5.)

Barret
"Damn man, get a hold of yourself!"

(Tifa kneels by Cloud.)

Tifa
"You all right?"

(He rises.)

Cloud
"......Tifa."

Tifa
"Mmm?"

Cloud
"No... forget...... Come on, let's hurry!"

This all happens early on in the game, so no, Kalm is NOT the initial point when Tifa realizes something is wrong with Cloud. Sorry, Tres. You be wrong.

Tifa had a little bit more to go on than Aerith maybe (and that's debatable itself; Aerith could at least be certain -- given her abilities -- that Cloud wasn't himself), but even so, they both reach the same conclusion: things aren't right with Cloud.

It's not debatable. See above and previous posts. Tifa began to fall for kid Cloud, who is ultimately the 'real' Cloud, so again, no. No debate. And what fucking abilities? Her Cetra powers? They give her insight into Cloud how? Could you clarify that and give canon evidence and not some crack fan-made theory, please. If there is and I'm forgetting, enlighten me.

Don't forget that his behavior on Disc 1 isn't identical to Zack's. Parts of him -- those that Tifa would know from childhood, actually -- are still apparent to Aerith, as she recognizes the real him as awkward and shy.

But it's not THOSE behaviors Aerith is attracted to. SHE ADMITS as much on the Gondola. Says that she knows they're different and that NOW she'd like to meet the real him...not before. Before her attraction is based on the traits that remind her of Zack. Saying otherwise calls the creators liars and Aerith a fucking moron, because it's what she says too.

It's not hard to get at all. But it should be equally easy to follow that some of the real Cloud was expressed in his behavior on Disc 1 -- including his awkwardness and his fondness for motorcycles. We didn't see Cloud necessarily liking things Zack liked, etc.

Zack had a fondness for motorcycles too, if I'm not mistaken. And big swords, and SOLDIER, and flower girls... Yeah, Cloud was really different... /sarcasm. No, Cloud wasn't Zack. I don't recall saying he even acted like Zack. (maybe I did fourteen threads ago, I can't remember) But Aerith SAW ZACK in him. Which is what matters.

He was fucked up for the couple of months she was taking care of him at Seventh Heaven, and prior to that, they'd had one real conversation that we know of. What advantage, really, did Tifa have over Aerith in knowing the real Cloud given that Aerith was able to perceive things like his shyness and awkwardness anyway?

One real conversation. MORE than Aerith EVER had with him. Period.

I stand by my earlier statement: Tifa knew something was wrong with Cloud because of the things he remembered and didn't remember, not because she knew him so well. I also stand by my statement that Aerith and Tifa had comparable affection for the real him at the time of Aerith's death.

Stand by it. Doesn't make you any less wrong.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Really? Because I thought one of the reasons she wanted to keep him around was because she realized early on that he wasn't quite right.

This all happens early on in the game, so no, Kalm is NOT the initial point when Tifa realizes something is wrong with Cloud. Sorry, Tres. You be wrong.

We're both right. She wanted to keep him around because she realized something was wrong, and she realized it before Kalm, but she knew it because he'd been talking about facts that seemed off:

Tifa
"How long has it been?"

(The screen flashes again. Three times. He grabs his head, in pain, but
Tifa does not seem to notice.)

Cloud
"Five years."

Tifa
"............"

Cloud
"What is it?"

Tifa
"...It's really been a long time."

(The screen darkens, but does not disappear.)

Tifa
"Actually, it's been seven years."
"You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth
incident, and now you're a mercenary..."
"You told me a lot about what happened after you left
Nibelheim..."
"But..."
"...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about
the things you talked about."
"All the things you didn't know that you should. And other things
you shouldn't know that you did..."
"I wanted to make sure..."
"But then I heard... you were going far away..."

(The screen finally goes to black.)

Tifa
"And I didn't want that..."
"I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time."
"And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to
be with you, watch you."

Also, her 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile:

Out of goodwill for Cloud, she didn’t voice out her personal thoughts. There, her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also . . . .

So, it was my bad, but only partially. She noticed shit was off with him, but for the reason I said. I just misremembered the timing for when she noticed. You had that part right.

And yes, people change, but as Cloud himself said "not much has changed." He is, essentially, that same boy from Nibleheim.

Which is not something Tifa would have known at the beginning of the story, where he's acting much different from that boy from Nibelheim and only shows glimpses of the real him.

It's not debatable. See above and previous posts. Tifa began to fall for kid Cloud, who is ultimately the 'real' Cloud, so again, no. No debate.

Kid Cloud acting much different from the Cloud that she was around for a couple months and whom she was demonstrating love for. As far as she knew, that Cloud no longer existed.

And what fucking abilities? Her Cetra powers? They give her insight into Cloud how? Could you clarify that and give canon evidence and not some crack fan-made theory, please. If there is and I'm forgetting, enlighten me.

You're forgetting. Pg. 23 of the Crisis Core Ultimania says that because she was a Cetra Aerith demonstrated the ability to perceive the truths concealed deep in people's minds, and her 10th AU profile (pg. 48 of the original; pg. 50 of the Revised Edition) says this: "Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him."

While I am synthesizing those two quotes to arrive at the conclusion that Aerith perceived bits of the real Cloud, I think that's the logical thing to do since -- if not with Cloud -- there won't have otherwise been an occasion where we saw Aerith perceiving truths concealed deep in people's minds.

But it's not THOSE behaviors Aerith is attracted to.

In fairness, how do you know that? She calls Cloud a mixed-up kid right before she pushes him out the door for a date. It may be that she likes his awkwardness quite a lot.

Hell, if we're looking at Maiden, she says as much.

SHE ADMITS as much on the Gondola. Says that she knows they're different and that NOW she'd like to meet the real him...not before.

So if she didn't like anything about the real him, why is she interested in pursuing him further if she's admitting that she didn't like anything about the real him? This does not make sense.

Before her attraction is based on the traits that remind her of Zack. Saying otherwise calls the creators liars and Aerith a fucking moron, because it's what she says too.

And no one is saying otherwise. Her initial attraction was based on that. Then she had two or three weeks to sort it all out -- recognize some of the qualities that are different between the two men, come to terms with what had drawn her to him initially, be clued in by her Cetra abilities to him not being himself, and then decide to pursue him regardless with the intention of getting to know the real Cloud.

Zack had a fondness for motorcycles too, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure. He drove one at one point (stole it in Last Order, while it was given to him by Cissnei in Crisis Core), but I think that's the most his relationship with motorcycles is demonstrated to have gone.

One real conversation. MORE than Aerith EVER had with him. Period.

And none of his real personality could have ever shown through in any of the conversations they had in this game? Ever? Not on the occasions when he's expressing concern or support for her, or when they're just talking about random crap and he teases her?

Not during any of that? Really?

Stand by it. Doesn't make you any less wrong.

You're right. It doesn't.

Because I'm not wrong at all.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Isn't that the same guy as the person who wrote Maiden? If the Ultimania's were not written by the creators, why do we give them more legtimacy than others? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. I didn't know this about the books.

There's a difference between Benny being the writer of synthesized facts and creator commentary of the game, and him writing a fan fiction out of his own imagination that's never been acknowledged at all by the Compilation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And Tres, you're saying that the only reason Tifa realized shit was wrong with Cloud was because of the oddities in his memory of the Nibelheim Incident, but the same profile you're quoting regarding Tifa says specifically:

She was reunited with Cloud during one of AVALANCHE’s activities, and invited him to join the organization in order to watch over him after finding many strange aspects in his speech and behavior.

Right at the beginning of her FFVII character summary. Tifa did not just realize Cloud was mentally wrong due to the fact he had his memory of the Nibelheim massacre wrong. It says specifically due to his speech and behavior, she was made aware of Cloud's mental problems.

Tifa was aware of Cloud and his personality problems, which stemmed from the fact he was not truly himself. If you're going to say Aerith used her Cetra powers to perceive that Cloud wasn't right, then its not a stretch at all to say Tifa knew Cloud was fucked up from her memories and knowledge of Cloud's character as well.

The part you're quoting is just the caption describing Tifa's apprehension during Cosmo Canyon while sitting next to Cloud. That's not all of the facts regarding the situation.

Also, her timeline states:

[ ν ] – εуλ 0007

(Age 20)

· FFVII – Midgar
She was reunited with Cloud again at the Sector 7 Slum Station. However, feeling that his speech and conduct were strange, she invited him into AVALANCHE so that she could keep an eye on his condition for a while.

She was aware of the real Cloud and the schism in his consciousness.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

We're both right. She wanted to keep him around because she realized something was wrong, and she realized it before Kalm, but she knew it because he'd been talking about facts that seemed off:

So, it was my bad, but only partially. She noticed shit was off with him, but for the reason I said. I just misremembered the timing for when she noticed. You had that part right.

Kalm didn't cement her knowing something was off, it made her question HERSELF. She began to wonder if she was misremembering. Yes, because Cloud knew things he shouldn't have, but from get go she knew he wasn't himself. Which is, yes, more than we can say for Aerith. Even with her magic Cetra ability.

Which is not something Tifa would have known at the beginning of the story, where he's acting much different from that boy from Nibelheim and only shows glimpses of the real him.

Kid Cloud acting much different from the Cloud that she was around for a couple months and whom she was demonstrating love for. As far as she knew, that Cloud no longer existed.

This would matter if I suggested that Tifa's emotions developed in-game. I said she began to crush on 'real Cloud' back in Nibleheim, so the fact that she recognizes something wrong with AVALANCHE Cloud should say that it's not THAT version of Cloud she's falling for. Of course she demonstrates love for him, I don't see how that changes anything. Tifa's emotions were in place before the game began and only become more complicated as a result of fucked up Cloud's behavior. You can't posit that she knew something was WRONG with the guy and imply that she was falling in love with THAT version of him.

You're forgetting. Pg. 23 of the Crisis Core Ultimania says that because she was a Cetra Aerith demonstrated the ability to perceive the truths concealed deep in people's minds, and her 10th AU profile (pg. 48 of the original; pg. 50 of the Revised Edition) says this: "Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him."

While I am synthesizing those two quotes to arrive at the conclusion that Aerith perceived bits of the real Cloud, I think that's the logical thing to do since -- if not with Cloud -- there won't have otherwise been an occasion where we saw Aerith perceiving truths concealed deep in people's minds.

So Aerith being Cetra allowed her to glimpse pieces of Cloud? Because that's not how I read that. I read it as that ability allows her to see that he's fractured and messed up, but there is no indication that she is able to glean his true self. Just that he's NOT all in the head. Also, the fact that she has to rely on Cetra powers to gather this while Tifa knew based on knowledge of who Cloud was completely negates their 'equal footing'. Tifa knew enough of Cloud to know he was not himself. She KNEW him. Inside and out? No one does, but she was aware of him enough to not need a magic power to tell her was off.

In fairness, how do you know that? She calls Cloud a mixed-up kid right before she pushes him out the door for a date. It may be that she likes his awkwardness quite a lot.

Fair enough. Maybe she does.

Hell, if we're looking at Maiden, she says as much.

We don't. Or I don't. Ever. And you know this.

So if she didn't like anything about the real him, why is she interested in pursuing him further if she's admitting that she didn't like anything about the real him? This does not make sense.

He's a hot blond with a giant sword. But aside from the obvious I never said she didn't like anything about him. I said the CLOUD attributes weren't what she was attracted to. I would imagine that once she realized this that maybe she would want to see if there was something there to pursue. I don't think she knew how much of Cloud she liked and how much was superimposed.

And no one is saying otherwise. Her initial attraction was based on that. Then she had two or three weeks to sort it all out -- recognize some of the qualities that are different between the two men, come to terms with what had drawn her to him initially, be clued in by her Cetra abilities to him not being himself, and then decide to pursue him regardless with the intention of getting to know the real Cloud.

Can you guess why I bolded that? You can't argue that she knew the real Cloud (at least as much as Tifa did) and then state that she PLANNED on getting to know him. That's...dumb. And you're better than that.

I'm not sure. He drove one at one point (stole it in Last Order, while it was given to him by Cissnei in Crisis Core), but I think that's the most his relationship with motorcycles is demonstrated to have gone.

And where in Cloud's backstory do we ever see him have a fondness for motorbikes? It's only AFTER the events with him and Zack that he shows any interest in a motorcycle--that by all logical accounts he shouldn't really know how to drive...but SE and logic don't always go hand in hand, so I digress. No, I am NOT saying the like of bikes absolutely comes from Zack, but I am saying it's not something that we can identify 100% as a "cloud" trait.

And none of his real personality could have ever shown through in any of the conversations they had in this game? Ever? Not on the occasions when he's expressing concern or support for her, or when they're just talking about random crap and he teases her?

WHAT CONVERSATIONS?!? Seriously, i'm asking, because even on the date it's only Aerith that does any kind of "big reveal" so please, show me where Cloud revealed himself. Concern and support he expresses to everyone and that's a trait MOST humans have. Not Cloud specific. Cid supports and shows concern for her. Tifa does too. When does he tease? Am I missing a scene or are we talking about fucked-in-the-head-Jenova-puppet-Cloud mocking her for not being good enough for SOLDIER?

Because I'm wrong and you're beautiful.

Awwwww, thanks!

 

[Vendel]

Oh god I love these idiots.

I'm not a C/A C/T person period. I see why people believe it either way, that's all. Official or not, that's fine. There was an option, and if you did play the game with zero affection level all you got was the lifestream and the impression that they were friends. Unless you played the way Square intended as the "official" outcome, you could have interpreted it however you like before there was any confirmation in either direction.

To say that there is NO other way to interpret the game is just ignorant. That's like saying there is only ONE way to read the bible, or interpret Shakespeare, and etc. etc. Without the A+B= CloTi confirmation from Square, the couple was NOT that obvious.

Rinao and Squall? Obvious, without any "official" explanation, meaning anyone who wants to toss Quisitis or Selphie in there is drowning in fandom. The pairing was CLEAR and there was no option, and was in no need of explanation.

FFVII, however, required further confirmation. Now, you have your confirmation, that's great, but it doesn't erase the years of debate and wondering between more than just a few people. It's not like it's those "Crazy Clerith fans" that just came out of nowhere, and to suggest that this is in fact the case is painfully, mind numbingly stupid.

As for being able to love someone romantically without being IN love with them... Well, how about someone who loses their spouse and eventually moves on and falls for someone else? Now before you get all up in arms and LYK ZOMG THAT'S NOT HOW THE GAME WENT WTF I am NOT talking about the game at all, just a general scenario.

You don't just STOP loving Wife A cause she is dead as a door nail, you continue loving her, but that love changes into something lasting and allowing of new love. Therefore, it is entirely plausible to love two people at once, even romantically, though it will still be unique to the situation/person.

People do live in a world with "my logic". It's called be educated, open minded, with a non-linear way of perceiving their surroundings.

Read a freaking book, get a degree in some kind of social science (or english lit, or liberal arts, I don't care - just something that'll encourage you to use the mush between your ears), and grow up. You're in for an uncomfortable ride through life if you're expecting every little thing to be linear, two-dimensional, and black and white.

And now I am really done, cause this is just getting annoying. A debate can be fun and invigorating, but I feel like I'm arguing with a missionary at my front door about the literal interpretation of every metaphor they are trying to shove at me. Having your "facts" and "beliefs" don't mean much if you've got the mind of segmented lead paint.

Is this what the kids call a flounce?