The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Ryushikaze]

The presence of the underlined words in the same sentence makes a redundancy.

No. It does not. There is such a thing as irrational love. While love can make one irrational, it is not in itself irrational, as it has proven evolutionary benefits for the species.

Jumping in to help Q: Gaining knowledge from the Lifestream is one of the things the Cetra are all about, isn't it? What is the Lifestream made of? The energy, consciousness, and memories of those who have died. How many people who knew the real Cloud are dead by the time Sephy sends Aerith to the Lifestream? Everyone who ever knew him in Nibelheim (except Tifa of course). Any number of Shinra grunts and SOLDIERs he might have known while he was working for Shinra. Hell, Zack's memories of the real Cloud are obviously flowing through the stream of consciousness somewhere. I call bullshit on your call of bullshit, this is 100% plausible.

Possible != plausible.
And the planet talking to Aerith and the Cetra isn't the same as omniscience about the minds of everyone in the planet.


Oh, and Tess's video is at least as relevant as the MK v SF that sidetracked the thread a short time ago.

 

[Eerie]

I would find it very creepy and stalker-like if Aerith would try to get who the real Cloud is through the Lifestream....

Quex, she developped her own feelings for Cloud, no one denied that, but did she know the real Cloud? No, she didn't. She saw a glimpse of him, and was attracted by it, but she couldn't see past that. Because right when she says "I want to meet you", she gets beaten up and then escapes. Tell me when she has the time to meet up with the real Cloud?

 

[Dashell]

I would find it very creepy and stalker-like if Aerith would try to get who the real Cloud is through the Lifestream....

I love how EVERYTHING Aerith does is stalker like and creepy when it comes to Cloud, but when it's Zack it's true love

Tell me when she has the time to meet up with the real Cloud?

Oh for FUCK'S sake read what I wrote:

Oh and I'm not saying THESE PROVE SHE KNEW CLOUD INSIDE AND OUT! Just that she had an interest in him even after she realized he wasn't another Zack.

I said there were quotes that said she was initially attracted to the Zack in him but her feelings grew even after she learned he wasn't Zack 2.0, FHS said "Pony up the proof" and I did. I refuse to believe I'm being THIS unclear (although it does seem to happen to everyone in this thread). Now I did put forth the THEORY that she might have learned about him in the lifestream, but I didn't say it was a done deal.

god.. i don't even wanna wear my Cloti avatar anymore

 

[Vendel]

god.. i don't even wanna wear my Cloti avatar anymore

And Q's true colors begin to show.

 

[Dashell]

Yes, Chopper likes pink

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Jumping in to help Q: Gaining knowledge from the Lifestream is one of the things the Cetra are all about, isn't it? What is the Lifestream made of? The energy, consciousness, and memories of those who have died. How many people who knew the real Cloud are dead by the time Sephy sends Aerith to the Lifestream? Everyone who ever knew him in Nibelheim (except Tifa of course). Any number of Shinra grunts and SOLDIERs he might have known while he was working for Shinra. Hell, Zack's memories of the real Cloud are obviously flowing through the stream of consciousness somewhere. I call bullshit on your call of bullshit, this is 100% plausible.

I call bullshit on your little magic theory based on the fact that Aerith had to have her OWN memories of the people she pulled up from the goop to help her fight Sephiroth. She is not--even as **magic Cetra**-- omnipotent and I can't imagine her weeding through shit in the Lifestream to try and piece together the "REAL CLOUD" when he himself was still piecing his shit together. WTF? Makes no goddamn sense.

And I ask you, how many people knew the real Cloud in Nibleheim? his MOM was about it. The other kids sure as fuck didn't know him. You think Cloud was a social butterfly in Shinra? O.o Aside from Zack he's not shown to have any real connection to anyone, and most of Zack's memories of Cloud would include being tortured by a mad scientist--hardly the stuff that would make up 'genuine Cloud'.

So, yes, saying Aerith puzzle pieced Cloud via people's memories in the Lifestream is fucking bullshit.

Moving on:

FHS did you see the quotes I posted BTW? You asked me to provide the quotes that say Aerith was initially attracted to the Zack in Cloud but her feelings grew as she got to know him more?...

FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile wrote:
Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him.
FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 31 wrote:
Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him.

Well I posted those and you didn't reply...

Perhaps I didn't reply because I didn't feel they were worth replying to? I asked for quotes, you provided quotes. 2 in light of the "several" you claimed to have had, and the first one not saying a damn thing about her feelings for "real Cloud" growing. All that one says is she had great affection for him, which is "uh-duh" something we ALL agree on. So...I guess I have no idea what the hell you want me to do with that useless little chunket of info.

Second quote holds more water, but the very beginning of the sentence only reinforces what I've been saying the whole time. Her initial attraction is to the Zack she sees in Cloud, and yes, she knows he's a "messed up kid" (<--lovely quote to say to the person you're falling for, eh?) she does have interest in his sexy blond ass. Yes, she wants to know the real him. YES, we all agree on that! The division begins where SOME people think she knew enough of Cloud to be in love with him, and there are others that disagree.

I've said myself that SHE LOVED BOTH, go fucking read that, but I draw the line at saying she was in love with Cloud for Cloud. NONE of your quotes mention loving him, but the second does indicate that she was interested in pursuing him, even after she realized he was a fractured little fuck up. So, good job, I guess? On finding one quote amongst the several you were supposed to have had. **slow clap**

I responded. Happy now?

Thank you.

Don't thank him too fast. It's still bullshit.

/bad mood

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No, I said give reasons. The reasons don't have to be rational, but they have to be evident. I don't need the writer to justify Cloud's hatred for me, but he does have to give me evidence that there is reason behind it--or that there is no reason and Cloud is a wanker, but there has to be some form of narrative logic behind ANY strong emotion in a piece.

It helps at any rate, though I'd argue that there are times the audience is left to decide for themselves why a character may love another. I think that can be just as effective.

And attraction is the reason for the love. I AM NOT trying to rationalize attraction. People are attracted for a number of reasons: boobs, hair color, smell, reminding someone of your ex/dead-lover. **cough** But LOVE has to be expressly shown within the works for it to make ANY type of sense, and the reasons for that love can be OF COURSE based on the initial attraction. But when the INITIAL ATTRACTION is because the guy reminds you of your dead-ex, then yes, the "rationality" (reasons) for that love comes into question.

If we're calling Aerith's love for Cloud into question, then that brings us back to what you said we weren't doing: demanding rationalization for her feelings but not for other characters' (e.g. Cloud and Tifa), and bringing up the issue of what is a valid reason to love someone.

The criterion you've mentioned (the feelings needing to be expressly shown) a narrative involving love needs is met, so you know the feelings are there, and you even know the cause of the initial attraction -- which is more than can be said for either Cloud or Tifa. So I'm left curious as to what exactly needs calling into question, and why.

Maybe it's not what you meant to imply, but the use of the phrases "calling into question" and "makes [her] feelings suspect" indicates the measuring of something's validity or appropriateness. I haven't forgotten that you said Aerith's love for Cloud is genuine, so I guess I'm finding your choice of words to be at odds with your statement. I'd like to understand what you're really trying to say.

If you're just trying to say that Aerith's love, while genuine, is based little on attributes of Cloud's that are known to her, then I agree. Hell, certainly the same can be said of people who everyday "fall in love at first sight." People doing this don't know shit about the person they've fallen in love with and aren't really loving them for any depth of character, even though the feelings may well be genuine.

But that to me is really a non-issue since it's still Cloud she's loving, no matter the reason.

Am I just not making sense to anyone but me?

I think that maybe I get you now. I hope so anyway.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

If you're just trying to say that Aerith's love, while genuine, is based little on attributes of Cloud's that are known to her, then I agree. Hell, certainly the same can be said of people who everyday "fall in love at first sight." People doing this don't know shit about the person they've fallen in love with and aren't really loving them for any depth of character, even though the feelings may well be genuine.

But that to me is really a non-issue since it's still Cloud she's loving, no matter the reason.



I think that maybe I get you now. I hope so anyway.

You're definitely closer to what I'm trying to get across. This: "But that to me is really a non-issue since it's still Cloud she's loving, no matter the reason." is where I diverge. Because as much as I believe the emotion is genuine and the person she's attached it to is Cloud, I don't believe that it's "Cloud" she's loving. God, that makes no sense written out, but in my head I know what I'm saying. She loves Cloud for what he represents and what he COULD be to her, not for what he IS. I think that is as succinct as I can put it.

And I'm not trying to quantify or even isolate love, as I believe the human spectrum of emotions are far beyond anything I'll ever understand, but this is--again--a work of fiction where there isn't a billion little life nuances to be accounted for, and instead is a story where the motivations and intents of the characters is laid out.

I enjoyed this back and forth. It's always good when someone poses questions that require me to think about or explain/expand my reasoning and theirs. So, thanks!

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Ryu: You took that love=irrational joke I made way too seriously. I didn't say love was 100% irrational, or that it doesn't have benefits both from an evolutionary standpoint and for our overall mental health.

All emotions have their irrational side though, without exception. Love and hate are probably the two easiest emotional states to spot the irrationality of. They both have a tendency to make people seem stupider or less sane than they are without them (not always though, the absence of love can literally drive some folks insane if it lasts too long). And damn it, I thought it was funny

@Chun-Li: Screw you man-hands I could more fully explain my point, but I've got better things to do right now. I'll do it later, if anyone still cares. Not likely lol.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I enjoyed this back and forth. It's always good when someone poses questions that require me to think about or explain/expand my reasoning and theirs. So, thanks!

No problem. It was, indeed, fun. =)

And, yeah, I get you now. You feel that Aerith genuinely loves the idea of Cloud, so to speak.

 

[Eerie]

I love how EVERYTHING Aerith does is stalker like and creepy when it comes to Cloud, but when it's Zack it's true love

....

Pardon me, but what? Looking through the Lifestream in order to learn about him rather than asking him directly is NOT CREEPY? HOW? Edit: and you yeah, it's you who make her like that, not us. I never agreed with this "theory", and I don't think Aerith did that. Stop mixing stuff up please.

I love how you say that even though I absolutely not mention Zack either. Nor did I ever heard that she was seeking through the LifeStream to learn about the true Zack. I must have missed that info.

Also, for your information, since I dislike Aerith, I don't ship her with anyone. Not even with Zack. So everything that I say about the Zack/Aerith relationship is from someone who doesn't ship them. One can ship CloTi without shipping Zerith. So you can keep your comments about my double standards _o/

I said there were quotes that said she was initially attracted to the Zack in him but her feelings grew even after she learned he wasn't Zack 2.0, FHS said "Pony up the proof" and I did. I refuse to believe I'm being THIS unclear (although it does seem to happen to everyone in this thread). Now I did put forth the THEORY that she might have learned about him in the lifestream, but I didn't say it was a done deal.

I read what you said, and also read what the others said on the matter. What it looked to me was that to clash with them so much [since it was exactly what they were saying] you thought that she knew the real him and was in love with the real him. Yes, yes you were this unclear because the others were very clear and you still disagreed! This is what you get for going on about semantics.

 

[Splintered]

This whole irrational business might poignant in real world, but for fiction it completely makes sense. The two quotes Q provided might not be ROCK HARD SOLID PROOF, but ultimately it feels like we are fighting the semantics of the sentence rather than just taking the spirit and general thought it is suppose to provoke, irrational or not- Aerith loved Cloud and not because of his similarity in Zack.

Tifa didn't "know" the real Cloud until she met him in the lifestream, but we can assume she's been in love with him since before the game even started. She waited for him for two (iirc?) years at Nibelheim and when she met him again at Midgar, she immediately jumped at the chance to keep an eye on him.

It's been argued by the other side that Tifa only liked him because he was going to be a "hero" but this is bullshit as we know since in Midgar she was trying to take care of him than the other way around. But that didn't stop her from thinking he could have been in soldier.

Despite the fact that she didn't know his weaker side, she know that Cloud wasn't truly Cloud and she hadn't quite confronted him as himself. Nor did she build a relationship with Cloud as himself. But she still loved him. The same way despite Aerith didn't know the true Cloud, she knew he wasn't quite himself and still loved him.

You can pick and prod apart all you want, trying to decipher history and "omg look at this scene- let's argue about how the grammar shows she really knew him" but they were on the same boat.

There is only one true difference between the two, and that is Tifa gets to build a relationship with Cloud once he pieces himself together. Aerith and Cloud's relationship is all based, however, on the fact that she's dead. And it's hard to start a romantic relationship postmortem. I'm a firm believe that in FFVII, during disc one it was impossible to start a romance with him as he was too fucked up. But I also feel that it is important to note that feelings from Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith do not change about each other before and after his lfestream therapy.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

@Chun-Li: Screw you man-hands I could more fully explain my point, but I've got better things to do right now. I'll do it later, if anyone still cares. Not likely lol.

That's right, tonberry balls, you better run!

Also, yes, explain, please, because if I'm misunderstanding, then I'd like to know. Otherwise, point remains bullshit.

No problem. It was, indeed, fun. =)

And, yeah, I get you now. You feel that Aerith genuinely loves the idea of Cloud, so to speak.

Ah, there we go. Perfect. **hugs and loves on Tres**

 

[Makoeyes987]

I genuinely love the idea of Chun-Li, but give me a fatality with Scorpion any day.

 

[Splintered]

Chun-Li > all of the MK cast.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Those thunder thighs aren't going to stop Noob, sorry.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I genuinely love the idea of Chun-Li, but give me a fatality with Scorpion any day.

Pffffffft. Chun Li is made of boobs and awesome. NOTHING tops that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Incidentally I'd love to see Chun-Li and Sonya go at it.

...Take that as you will.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Those thunder thighs aren't going to stop Noob, sorry.

Is that because Scorpion already owns his ass?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Incidentally I'd love to see Chun-Li and Sonya go at it.

...Take that as you will.

Sonya blows.

Take that as you will.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I just hope she swallows, then.

 

[Dashell]

Perhaps I didn't reply because I didn't feel they were worth replying to? I asked for quotes, you provided quotes. 2 in light of the "several" you claimed to have had, and the first one not saying a damn thing about her feelings for "real Cloud" growing. All that one says is she had great affection for him, which is "uh-duh" something we ALL agree on. So...I guess I have no idea what the hell you want me to do with that useless little chunket of info.

Two posts later you said this:

She loves Cloud for what he represents and what he COULD be to her, not for what he IS. I think that is as succinct as I can put it.

That to me seems to be where we disagree. And it shouldn't matter how many quotes one provides, just ONE should be able to do it really. Also I don't believe I ever said several. If you take into account that one of those quotes says her feelings in him grow and all the quotes that says she loves him, you should be able to connect the dots.

She loved Cloud for Zack... realized he wasn't Zack, her affection in him grew as she got to know him... but she still loved what she knew so far. Then she died. In the lifestream, she still says Cloud is her beloved. The end.

However you yourself said your thoughts make no sense when written out so maybe I shouldn't try to make them make sense to me.

Her initial attraction is to the Zack she sees in Cloud, and yes, she knows he's a "messed up kid" (<--lovely quote to say to the person you're falling for, eh?) she does have interest in his sexy blond ass. Yes, she wants to know the real him. YES, we all agree on that! The division begins where SOME people think she knew enough of Cloud to be in love with him, and there are others that disagree.

Alright, I can get on board with that as I said before. I don't agree what what you say but I do get your point.

I've said myself that SHE LOVED BOTH, go fucking read that

The thing is, so have I and every time I bring it up people start posting quotes saying she loved Zack and say that she only loves him for Zack and this and that and it's like, "No shit she loved Zack."

On finding one quote amongst the several you were supposed to have had. **slow clap**

Again I never said several. One quote that says her feelings in Cloud grew, and all the others that say she loved him really should do it here.

I responded. Happy now?

You have NO idea

Pardon me, but what? Looking through the Lifestream in order to learn about him rather than asking him directly is NOT CREEPY? HOW? Edit: and you yeah, it's you who make her like that, not us. I never agreed with this "theory", and I don't think Aerith did that. Stop mixing stuff up please.

I love how you say that even though I absolutely not mention Zack either. Nor did I ever heard that she was seeking through the LifeStream to learn about the true Zack. I must have missed that info.

The thing is, I didn't mean just you, I mean I've talked to a lot of people who said that Aerith is "creepy" when it comes to Cloud but everything she does with Zack is sweet and what not .

I read what you said, and also read what the others said on the matter. What it looked to me was that to clash with them so much [since it was exactly what they were saying] you thought that she knew the real him and was in love with the real him. Yes, yes you were this unclear because the others were very clear and you still disagreed! This is what you get for going on about semantics.

All I'm trying to say here is that she realized Cloud wasn't Zack but still took an interest in him. How much she knew the real Cloud, I can't say for sure. I don't remember going on about any semantics but this seems to come up alot in the LTD so feh.

he two quotes Q provided might not be ROCK HARD SOLID PROOF, but ultimately it feels like we are fighting the semantics of the sentence rather than just taking the spirit and general thought it is suppose to provoke, irrational or not- Aerith loved Cloud and not because of his similarity in Zack.

YAY someone understands

 

[Vendel]

Tifa didn't "know" the real Cloud until she met him in the lifestream, but we can assume she's been in love with him since before the game even started. She waited for him for two (iirc?) years at Nibelheim and when she met him again at Midgar, she immediately jumped at the chance to keep an eye on him.

Despite the fact that she didn't know his weaker side, she know that Cloud wasn't truly Cloud and she hadn't quite confronted him as himself. Nor did she build a relationship with Cloud as himself. But she still loved him. The same way despite Aerith didn't know the true Cloud, she knew he wasn't quite himself and still loved him.

HOLD ON

Tifa did know the real Cloud. If she didn't then how the fuck would she know he wasn't acting like himself the whole time? Sure she didn't know his stalker tendencies. But to state she didn't know him is BS.

And Aerith and Tifa are miles apart on reasons for liking Cloud. Tifa fell in love with that shy awkward boy from back home. Aerith stalks Cloud because he reminds her of Zack.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Pffffffft. Chun Li is made of boobs and awesome. NOTHING tops that.

Cammy's ass and leotard > Chun Li's thighs

 

[Fairheartstrife]

That to me seems to be where we disagree. And it shouldn't matter how many quotes one provides, just ONE should be able to do it really.

It MATTERS because you said this:

I disagree. There are too many quotes out there that say she as INITIALLY attracted to Cloud because of Zack, but that even when she realizes that he's not Zack 2.0 or whatever you wanna call him, she still loved him and her feelings for him grew.

Too many turns into ONE. **eyeroll**

Also I don't believe I ever said several.

See above. "Too many" would indicate several. Actually, 'too many' would indicate an overabundance of quotes. Which, of course, there isn't...

If you take into account that one of those quotes says her feelings in him grow and all the quotes that says she loves him, you should be able to connect the dots.

I connect the dots just fucking fine, Quexi. It's you having the hard time separating Aerith being in love with Cloud and Aerith holding POTENTIAL to love Cloud.

She loved Cloud for Zack... realized he wasn't Zack, her affection in him grew as she got to know him...

WHEN the hell did she KNOW him? For real, and don't use that bullshit Lifestream theory.

but she still loved what she knew so far. Then she died. In the lifestream, she still says Cloud is her beloved. The end.

Are you serious with the beloved bullshit?

However you yourself said your thoughts make no sense when written out so maybe I shouldn't try to make them make sense to me.

Guess not.

Again I never said several.

Again; yes you fucking did.

One quote that says her feelings in Cloud grew, and all the others that say she loved him really should do it here.

One quote saying Zack is always by her side should do it for you too, but I recall you throwing a shit-fit hissy saying he WASN'T because he wasn't mentioned in CoLW... Double standards are awfully icky, Q.

You have NO idea

As long as you're happy.