The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Ite]

I love Dr. Insano.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

And he loves SCIENCE!!!

 

[Dashell]

HOW CAN YOU QUANTIFY TIME IN A REALM OF DEATH? Where's the watch that denotes how long Aerith was not around Zack in the lifestream? How long did she wait?

How can you quantify time in a realm of death? That's dangerously close to pinker like logic. You keep trying to tie our world to theirs and it keeps not working. Lifestream Black and White were clearly happening between the two year gap between FFVII's end and ACC.

And again, you are missing my point. If Zack's her true love... Why didn't she call upon him as soon as she died? Why didn't she think, "OH sweet I can see that Zack guy again, awesome!" She waited. We know she waited because he isn't mentioned at all in CoLW.

How? Explain yourself before you make ridiculous assertions.

Sephiroth can obviously hurt Aerith somehow when he's dead which makes me think that there might be someone who can harm him as well. She cannot, she's not strong enough. Sephiroth is doing all these things because of his strong ass will. Zack somehow was able to not merge with the planet and its most likely due to his strong will as well.

My point is she had a perfect opportunity to call upon the guy she supposedly loves more than anyone, and she didn't. And there's a reason.

Because we've already established how the Cetra are spiritually able to act through the lifestream, so now give me how a human spirit is capable of doing the same and having combat with Sephiroth.

If Sephiroth can do all of that because of his strong will, why can't someone else act on behalf of a strong will?

1. This is Aerith we talking about. She did this "smart" thing to go alone to "somewhere" where she better shouldn`t have gone alone.

Yet she had the smarts to flee from Sephiroth in CoLW. In other words, she learned from her mistake.

2. A mere spirit stands zero chance against Sephiroth. Their is no point in putting him into danger.

Based on?

I'd really like to know what possible course of action Zack, a human spirit who's only able to maintain individual form temporarily, could've taken against a demi-god spirit in the lifestream who is able to maintain his will, corrupt the planet, and create his own personal lifestream through his own will.

I'd really love to know what possible course of action Zack could've done to help Aerith, and why she'd even put Zack in the situation in the first place.

I'd really like to know how you're forgetting the fact that Sephiroth is ALSO dead and is ALSO acting because of his strong will.

She wasn't trying to have a pissing contest with Sephiroth. She was trying to pray ASAP because no one else could do shit against Meteor. Sephiroth had obtained ze Black Materia. What's an Ancient to do? She didn't go off on her own because she thought she could take the guy, simply because she could take his major weapon. And it was only a matter of time before he used it. Cloud was outta commission. What was she supposed to do, wait around for his ass? Fuck that shit, Meteor was a-commin

Also, I believe it was a sense of duty as the last of the Planet's BFFs. She said herself she was being led by something. Like Cloud's battle with Seph in AC, it was ~her fight~

I'm not even talking about this dude.

And no one has answered my question, if she was so in love with Zack, why didn't she try to see him when she first entered the lifestream?

 

[looneymoon]

The LTD has made me way too familiar with the events in disc one =\

I mean seriously, I can probably recap the events in disc one scene for scene whereas I can only remember the big moments in 2-3.

/contribution

 

[Ite]

Maybe it's a coincidence that Disc II is mostly just fapping about with huge materia.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Trivia, serious question - what color underwear does Tifa wear?

Answer - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/File:Tifa's_Orthopedic_Underwear.jpg

This is news? I mean... known for ages.

 

[Dashell]

I'd be surprised if you didn't

 

[Tennyo]

WTF YOU ADDED MUKKI AFTER I ALREADY VOTED FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Isabella]

Oh crap what is this thread

 

[Makoeyes987]

How can you quantify time in a realm of death? That's dangerously close to pinker like logic. You keep trying to tie our world to theirs and it keeps not working. Lifestream Black and White were clearly happening between the two year gap between FFVII's end and ACC.

No fucking shit. Of course it was between FFVII and ACC. But for how long did each of those events happen? Answer the question. How do you quantify time, when you're dead in the lifestream? How can you tell how long Aerith was not with Zack? Can you answer the question.

And again, you are missing my point. If Zack's her true love... Why didn't she call upon him as soon as she died? Why didn't she think, "OH sweet I can see that Zack guy again, awesome!" She waited. We know she waited because he isn't mentioned at all in CoLW.

HOW LONG DID SHE WAIT BEFORE CALLING ON HIM? PLEASE SHARE THIS TIME TABLE OF AERITH'S AFTERLIFE YOU SEEM TO BE READING FROM.

How long did she wait? You're jumping to conclusions again. We don't know she waited at all, that's your speculation. She could've seen or heard from Zack between each entry of Lifestream White and Black, given the fact we're told they're together in the lifestream in the first place. Each chapter doesn't happen all at once. What are you talking about?

Sephiroth can obviously hurt Aerith somehow when he's dead which makes me think that there might be someone who can harm him as well. She cannot, she's not strong enough. Sephiroth is doing all these things because of his strong ass will. Zack somehow was able to not merge with the planet and its most likely due to his strong will as well.

Hurt her? You don't feel pain when you die. What the hell are you talking about?

Zack has to merge with the planet. Just because Cloud's guilt and Aerith's desire to help Cloud awakened his spirit from the Lifestream temporarily doesn't mean he's never going to join back with the planet. He's still just a human. Zack's spirit awoke thanks to Cloud's guilt. It has nothing to do with his will. He's not Sephiroth. He's only human.

My point is she had a perfect opportunity to call upon the guy she supposedly loves more than anyone, and she didn't. And there's a reason.

Show me the timetable that shows everything Aerith did in the lifestream please. Where was her perfect opportunity and where is it clarified she didn't see Zack upon death. Cite your damn sources.

If Sephiroth can do all of that because of his strong will, why can't someone else act on behalf of a strong will?

Because Sephiroth is an alien demi-god with his own lifestream, and Zack is only a human and not a cetra.

Based on?

Based on Sephiroth being able to absorb and corrupt all spirits in his surrounding area and make them apart of the Negative Lifestream. What are you basing your shit on?

I'd really like to know how you're forgetting the fact that Sephiroth is ALSO dead and is ALSO acting because of his strong will.

Sephiroth is NOT just a spirit. His strong will is thanks to the power he has over Jenova and being more powerful than most living creatures on the planet.

And no one has answered my question, if she was so in love with Zack, why didn't she try to see him when she first entered the lifestream?

No one's answering cause you make no sense. Where do you know exactly what she did upon first entering the lifestream. Give me the fucking source. What was the first thing she did?

 

[Ryushikaze]

How can you quantify time in a realm of death? That's dangerously close to pinker like logic. You keep trying to tie our world to theirs and it keeps not working. Lifestream Black and White were clearly happening between the two year gap between FFVII's end and ACC.

And the first installments take place immediately after FF7.

And again, you are missing my point. If Zack's her true love... Why didn't she call upon him as soon as she died? Why didn't she think, "OH sweet I can see that Zack guy again, awesome!" She waited. We know she waited because he isn't mentioned at all in CoLW.

Maybe because death makes you forgetful. Maybe because she was still in denial about his death. Maybe she had more PRESSING CONCERNS. LIKE SEPHIROTH.

Sephiroth can obviously hurt Aerith somehow when he's dead which makes me think that there might be someone who can harm him as well. She cannot, she's not strong enough. Sephiroth is doing all these things because of his strong ass will. Zack somehow was able to not merge with the planet and its most likely due to his strong will as well.

My point is she had a perfect opportunity to call upon the guy she supposedly loves more than anyone, and she didn't. And there's a reason.

And that reason is METEOR. and then the fact Sephiroth is STILL THERE.

If Sephiroth can do all of that because of his strong will, why can't someone else act on behalf of a strong will?

Because Sephiroth is a deus ex machina for the bad guys. He does shit no one else can.

Yet she had the smarts to flee from Sephiroth in CoLW. In other words, she learned from her mistake.

Based on?

Quex.
When you yourself are arguing from assertion and supposition, it is not wise to say this.

I'd really like to know how you're forgetting the fact that Sephiroth is ALSO dead and is ALSO acting because of his strong will.

Evasion of the point- what hope does Zack have against Sephypoo? Answer the question.

I'm not even talking about this dude.

And no one has answered my question, if she was so in love with Zack, why didn't she try to see him when she first entered the lifestream?

BECAUSE THE PLANET SHE IS SWORN TO PROTECT, EVEN IN DEATH, IS FUCKING DOOMED.
That's why Aerith in MOTP bugs me. She's lackadaisical and carefree when DOOM is hanging!

 

[Dashell]

No fucking shit. Of course it was between FFVII and ACC. But for how long did each of those events happen? Answer the question. How do you quantify time, when you're dead in the lifestream? How can you tell how long Aerith was not with Zack? Can you answer the question.

HOW LONG DID SHE WAIT BEFORE CALLING ON HIM? PLEASE SHARE THIS TIME TABLE OF AERITH'S AFTERLIFE YOU SEEM TO BE READING FROM.

How long did she wait? You're jumping to conclusions again. We don't know she waited at all, that's your speculation. She could've seen or heard from Zack between each entry of Lifestream White and Black, given the fact we're told they're together in the lifestream in the first place. Each chapter doesn't happen all at once. What are you talking about?

IIRC the last thing Sephiroth did was send out Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, right? I mean we even see their clothes and weapons form as they're talking to the turks. I guess I find it hard to believe that they had been there for two years. Obviously they had enough time to find Jenova's "head" but you really think that took two years?

Hurt her? You don't feel pain when you die. What the hell are you talking about?

She felt threatened enough by him that she fled. He obviously could have done something to her or she'd have no reason to run from him.

Zack has to merge with the planet. Just because Cloud's guilt and Aerith's desire to help Cloud awakened his spirit from the Lifestream temporarily doesn't mean he's never going to join back with the planet. He's still just a human. Zack's spirit awoke thanks to Cloud's guilt. It has nothing to do with his will. He's not Sephiroth. He's only human.

... okay I'm sorry but I don't remember anything say that what awoke Zack was Cloud's guilt and Aerith's desire to help him, unless you're referring to Maiden which would be odd for you.

Show me the timetable that shows everything Aerith did in the lifestream please. Where was her perfect opportunity and where is it clarified she didn't see Zack upon death. Cite your damn sources.

See above.

Sephiroth is NOT just a spirit. His strong will is thanks to the power he has over Jenova and being more powerful than most living creatures on the planet.

He is a spirit. A damn powerful one, but a spirit.

No one's answering cause you make no sense. Where do you know exactly what she did upon first entering the lifestream. Give me the fucking source. What was the first thing she did?

I'd assume she was wrapped up in saving the planet first off... I guess I meant at the start of Lifestream White, not when she first died. I mean Lifestream White starts right after FFVII I'm asuming.

And the first installments take place immediately after FF7.

Right, thanks.

Maybe because death makes you forgetful. Maybe because she was still in denial about his death. Maybe she had more PRESSING CONCERNS. LIKE SEPHIROTH.

I guess I would have no idea if death made you forgetful.

And yes she had pressing concerns like Sephiroth, but I was also operating under the fact that somehow Zack eventually woke up in the lifestream. I remember reading on this very forum that some people believed that Aerith had awakened him at some point. Sephiroth is always a threat in the lifestream, he never stopped being a threat even during ACC... and Zack is there in ACC. Now Mako said it was Cloud's guilt and Aerith's desire to help Cloud that woke up Zack... I was figuring most people thought Aerith did this at some time. And at any point Seph would have been a threat and she would have other threats to worry about at any time as well.

First let me ask if you think Aerith somehow woke Zack up or not. If not, this is kind of pointless.

And that reason is METEOR. and then the fact Sephiroth is STILL THERE.

I'm talking about after Meteor and Sephiroth is there in ACC.

Evasion of the point- what hope does Zack have against Sephypoo? Answer the question.

Probably none, but he'd have more of a chance than Aerith IMO.

BECAUSE THE PLANET SHE IS SWORN TO PROTECT, EVEN IN DEATH, IS FUCKING DOOMED.
That's why Aerith in MOTP bugs me. She's lackadaisical and carefree when DOOM is hanging!

...

okay so... I guess what I should be asking is do you guys believe Zack was awakened by Aerith or something else?

 

[Makoeyes987]

IIRC the last thing Sephiroth did was send out Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, right? I mean we even see their clothes and weapons form as they're talking to the turks. I guess I find it hard to believe that they had been there for two years. Obviously they had enough time to find Jenova's "head" but you really think that took two years?

The point I'm making is that you can't place each event of those stories at a specific frame of time, or in regards to how long they span. Their time table is loose and purposefully vague. We only have approximations. Not definitives. You speaking as if you know exactly what Sephiroth and Aerith did in the lifestream at each specific time is ridiculous.

... okay I'm sorry but I don't remember anything say that what awoke Zack was Cloud's guilt and Aerith's desire to help him, unless you're referring to Maiden which would be odd for you.

Zack's 10th Anniversary Profile timeline:

In order to help Cloud recover, he assured him from the Lifestream together with Aerith.

There was his purpose and reasoning to come back. Cloud's guilt and suffering made him respond. Same for Aerith.

He is a spirit. A damn powerful one, but a spirit.

The fact he's Sephiroth's spirit and more powerful than anything else puts him in a whole league of his own. They're not equal.

I'd assume she was wrapped up in saving the planet first off... I guess I meant at the start of Lifestream White, not when she first died. I mean Lifestream White starts right after FFVII I'm asuming.

Yes, right after Sephiroth finally died. And right then and there, Aerith's already working hard to protect the planet from the will of Sephiroth who's already corrupting the lifestream and threatening it again.

First let me ask if you think Aerith somehow woke Zack up or not. If not, this is kind of pointless.

There's no "waking up." Zack's spirit would already exist and be part of the lifestream. Where are you getting this "waking up" shit from? You're looking at this from the borked ass mechanics of Maiden, which is not validated by canon at all. Zack wouldn't need waking up if he's already capable of manifesting himself and hasn't been completely diluted and lost amongst the cycle of the lifestream. Aerith doesn't need, nor is it ever alluded, that she was the one that made Zack able to manifest or appear in the first place.

 

[Dashell]

The point I'm making is that you can't place each event of those stories at a specific frame of time, or in regards to how long they span. Their time table is loose and purposefully vague. We only have approximations. Not definitives. You speaking as if you know exactly what Sephiroth and Aerith did in the lifestream at each specific time is ridiculous.

Fair enough, but I think we can make some sort of assessments. I always thought that Kadaj and Loz and Yazoo had only been around for a short while. However long it took them to find Jenova's head... because had they been a round longer, I think they would have started shit around the planet.

There was his purpose and reasoning to come back. Cloud's guilt and suffering made him respond. Same for Aerith.

Okay then, I didn't remember that.

The fact he's Sephiroth's spirit and more powerful than anything else puts him in a whole league of his own. They're not equal.

I am by no means saying Zack and Sephiroth are equal, but between him and Aerith, he'd have a better chance to deal with Sephiroth.

Zack's spirit would already exist and be part of the lifestream. Where are you getting this "waking up" shit from? You're looking at this from the borked ass mechanics of Maiden, which is not validated by canon at all.

Well like I said, I know it came up a while back and I don't remember this quote being brought up before. I don't feel like looking it up though...

Zack wouldn't need waking up if he's already capable of manifesting himself and hasn't been completely diluted and lost amongst the cycle of the lifestream. Aerith doesn't need, nor is it ever alluded, that she was the one that made Zack able to manifest or appear in the first place.

I didn't mean THAT...

Okay so ... Zack doesn't need "waking up" or anything of the sort... he was always there. I understand that now... but say he might have seen Aerith sooner? I am curious, when do you personally think they reunited in the lifestream? I just think if it was any time during CoLW's timeline, he would have been mentioned.

 

[Vendel]

You know (apropos of nothing). I am a little tired of seeing pinkers say that Cloud couldn't hold his "crush" for Tifa over the years they were separated. Then say him fucking Aerith's spirit is plausible. No, fuck you.

Sure Tifa held onto her feelings for Cloud all those years. But hey she is desperate and clingy. WE ALL KNOW THAT. And sure Aerith brings up Zack several times to Cloud. But that doesn't mean she is projecting anything on our chocobo head.

And sure you can call having a girl be pretty much your entire life focus, the very core of your being, a silly childhood crush. He got over it obviously. Probably while he was getting experimented on for four years. Or maybe it was that year on the run as a veg. Or maybe when he was a puppet of Sephy poo. But he GOT OVER IT.

What he can never do is get over his undying love for his perfect pink goddess.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I am by no means saying Zack and Sephiroth are equal, but between him and Aerith, he'd have a better chance to deal with Sephiroth.

No, not really. Aerith's spirit energy and power as a Cetra would give her more of a chance in a spiritual battle in the lifestream, versus a normal human spirit who could just end up getting taken in and becoming part of Sephiroth's negative lifestream just like whatever souls were used to created Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.

Well like I said, I know it came up a while back and I don't remember this quote being brought up before. I don't feel like looking it up though...

You got it from Maiden. What you're talking about is exactly what happened in Maiden, in terms of its mechanics. Which is not the same thing or even validated.

I didn't mean THAT...

Okay so ... Zack doesn't need "waking up" or anything of the sort... he was always there. I understand that now... but say he might have seen Aerith sooner? I am curious, when do you personally think they reunited in the lifestream? I just think if it was any time during CoLW's timeline, he would have been mentioned.

I have no clue, and it doesn't really matter, considering the important priorities they both have to worry about first.

And why would CoLW say anything when its not about Aerith's personal love life, and everything to do with preparing for the battle in AC and warning Cloud? Nothing about Lifestream White is about anything except Cloud, the planet, and the showdown in AC.

 

[Ite]

This whole 'doing shit in the Lifestream' is just maddening. It's driving me mad.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I'm just loving the assumption that Aerith even KNEW Zack was dead. She's Cetra, not God. She had convinced herself he was alive and humping other chicks in VII, so why, upon her death would she be like: "Hey, now, why don't I look up Zack?" **shakes head**

And honestly, Mako addresses this best in the fact that White isn't even ABOUT Aerith. Nor is Black about Sephiroth. They are lead ins to the events of ACC. Love story bullshit would be superfluous.

 

[RawrieStrife]

I'm losing my sanity here.

THE LTD IS DEAD. Believe me, sooner or later, you guys are gonna talk about boobs and spirit sex or something like that..

I need to get out of the house...

 

[minimosey]

I'm pretty sure boobs have already been covered.

Hard as it is to cover Tifa's.

There's no "waking up." Zack's spirit would already exist and be part of the lifestream. Where are you getting this "waking up" shit from? You're looking at this from the borked ass mechanics of Maiden, which is not validated by canon at all. Zack wouldn't need waking up if he's already capable of manifesting himself and hasn't been completely diluted and lost amongst the cycle of the lifestream. Aerith doesn't need, nor is it ever alluded, that she was the one that made Zack able to manifest or appear in the first place.

There's an allusion in Case of Lifestream White as well--not in direct reference to Zack, but it's not implausible to think that he couldn't manifest himself or was somehow weaker until Aerith got there.

She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking. When she found fragments of consciousness of people she had once known– pitifully few in number– she infused them with her own memories and sought their assistance.

The first time "fragments of consciousness" are mentioned, they're explicitly fragments of Ancients who haven't yet diffused (though they're close) and immediately accept her undertaking to care for the Lifestream during the Geostigma crisis. The second time "fragments of consciousness" are mentioned, they're people she once knew--obviously normal humans, not Ancients. These ones Aerith infuses with her memories first. It's easy to infer she needs to infuse them with her memories in order for them to help her.

Given Zack did a lot of nothing in the original game, sooner after his death and with a lot going on that Cloud could have used help for, but is then doing stuff in AC--it's very likely that he had already diffused in the original game, making him one of the "fragments of consciousness" Aerith found and infused with her memories. CC's ending also implies that he's at peace upon death and doesn't see himself needing to do more--the mantle got passed on to Cloud, checking up on Aerith and all--and so wouldn't have stuck around like other souls did.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Which brings about another point, that Zack is the ONLY soul--so far as we know--that Aerith willfully reconstructed to it's entirety.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

okay, clearly this poll is biased. We all know Cloud would be taking it from those girls and Mukki and not giving it because he's a little pussy. Also where is Zack? Can I have a lezbian option?

 

[minimosey]

That's only "so far as we know", and COLW implies he isn't. The quote does say the fragments she found were "pitifully few in number"; she didn't even find many people to reconstruct in the first place. But "few" is still usually more than one. She infused "them", sought "their" assistance.

Zack is the only one we see in Advent Children, but that's because the emotional story is about Cloud getting over his guilt and moving on. After all, we don't see any of the Ancients COLW states were helping Aerith; it would've derailed the movie for Aerith to walk out the church door to catch up with a hopping old man going "nyum nyum nyum". Who else died that Cloud felt guilt over and Aerith knew to be able to reconstruct? I'm running blank on anyone except Zack. He's the only one who needed to appear in AC because he was the only one besides Aerith that Cloud needed reassurance from.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

These ones Aerith infuses with her memories first. It's easy to infer she needs to infuse them with her memories in order for them to help her.

Or that she infused them with her own memories in order for them to recognize her and let them know what’s going on as they are not Ancients and don’t hold out as long in the Lifestream and are probably not aware that Sephiroth is throwing rocks at them from outer space. It doesn’t necessarily imply they needed a boost from Aerith, just needed to be told "hay GAIZ, THAT JENOVA SPAWN IS BEING A BITCH & SUMMONIN METEOR". The Ancients are aware (the voices of the Cetra lead her to pray to begin with, right?), they simply accept to help her. The humans don't fucking know what's going on.

I dun even know what my point is here. I'm really bored at work, guys

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Who else died that Cloud felt guilt over and Aerith knew to be able to reconstruct? I'm running blank on anyone except Zack. He's the only one who needed to appear in AC because he was the only one besides Aerith that Cloud needed reassurance from.

His mother.

Wedge. Biggs, Jessie.

Surely she didn't just run around picking only the people SHE knew. That's just...what?

I need to reread White, because I recall her taking fragments of consciousness to use as lifestream energy, like for the healing rain and such. I don't recall it being implied that she reconstructed anyone else...

I'll get back to this when I can. But you bring a good point.