The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[minimosey]

Or that she infused them with her own memories in order for them to recognize her and let them know what’s going on as they are not Ancients and don’t hold out as long in the Lifestream and are probably not aware that Sephiroth is throwing rocks at them from outer space. It doesn’t necessarily imply they needed a boost from Aerith.

The part about infusing is after Sephiroth throws rocks from outer space, and there's talk about fluxes in the Lifestream; the whole problem and reason Aerith's infusing people to get help is that the Lifestream is getting muddied up. Are they supposed to be completely insensate to the rest of the Lifestream? They're moving through it.

Also, if we're going that their memories are worn down enough for them to not recognize her--Case of Lifestream doesn't make it about just memories. The lifestream erodes "spirits", "thoughts", "emotions", "will", "being"; I don't think it makes sense to say just the memories are gone but their strength of will or existence as a separate entity is undamaged. "Memory" is tied to everything else, to force and will; it's how Aerith is getting rid of Geostigma's effects on the Lifestream at first, by releasing memories. And even the word choice--why say she "infused" them when she could have "relayed" her memories?

And if it's just sharing information, this doesn't explain why Aerith would only be communicating with people she knew.

Surely she didn't just run around picking only the people SHE knew. That's just...what?

Again, as in the story:

When she found fragments of consciousness of people she had once known– pitifully few in number– she infused them with her own memories and sought their assistance. She had more spirits on her side now, but even so the hatred borne by that man did not decrease.

Consciousness of people she had once known. "Pitifully few in number", and even after she was done she still came up short. She probably wasn't being picky about it at all; that'd be ridiculous, they're in the middle of an epidemic.

Think about it as being a little like how Tifa helped Cloud put himself back together in the Lifestream. She couldn't have helped a stranger do that. Aerith probably couldn't work with a stranger's "fragments of consciousness" because she'd have no idea what that person is like as a whole. The Ancients are different because they're more coherent, but then you get to ordinary people and quite possibly it'd be like having 10,000 puzzles with 1,000 puzzle pieces all jumbled together and Aerith's only got a few box covers that tell her what some of the puzzles should look like. Cloud's mother and AVALANCHE are not among them. Zack is.

 

[Dashell]

Which brings about another point, that Zack is the ONLY soul--so far as we know--that Aerith willfully reconstructed to it's entirety.

Okay this is exactly what I was talking about. I knew this had come up before and I didn't just grab it from Maiden. Now did she reconstruct/wake up Zack or not?... I always assumed she had. And I realize White isn't about Aerith's love life, but he is an important character. You'd think that if she had run into him at some point in time, or reconstructed him or whatever, it would have at least been mentioned. Though I supposed you could argue that what minimosey posted from White is just that but hat would make Zack seem somewhat unimportant, considering the role he plays in ACC.

And there are other spirits who'd be able to fight against Sephy I still say. I mean... I dunno it's probably a bad example but think of like the Gi tribe who was still able to fight after they had died.

 

[minimosey]

Unless I'm remembering wrong and there's even more undead in VII than I thought, every spirit that stays behind in the original game is either 1) Cetra or 2) wants to start shit (Sephiroth, Gi wanting to attack the canyon, Beginner's Hall being all "URGH THIS SUCKS TIME FOR REVENGE BY...QUIZZING" about their deaths). Or...they're Lucrecia but Lucrecia is just weird and isn't exactly dead. So I don't think there's much reason to believe there's a ton of awesome good-guy warriors floating around for years in the Lifestream, besides the Cetra and whatever souls Aerith's messing with. The best way for a decent person that wasn't Cetra to help the Planet after their death was usually to sit down, shut up, and let the Lifestream dissolve them so new life can be born.

Though I would be vastly amused at Sephiroth having to bitchslap a 100-year-dead villain who's all "SCREW YOU I WAS HERE FIRST MYYYYY REVENGE".

...And now I'm wondering about Angeal. Since he stuck around in the Lifestream for Zack, didn't he know Sephiroth was being a dick? Or maybe Sephiroth was sticking to the Northern Crater at that time... And Angeal's also a weird case. Stupid project G.

In regards to Zack not being mentioned personally in COLW: the episodes are about Aerith and Sephiroth, but in regards to their actions gearing up for what goes down in Advent Children and their feelings in relation to Cloud, the only character mentioned by name at all in the story. Zack is never in danger; he's never targeted by Sephiroth, he's not one of the living. He's just not important in Case of Lifestream because he has no bearing on Aerith's motives in Advent Children. Would it have been nice to have a mention? Maybe, but it wasn't necessary.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

So, re-read the Lifestream stories and aside from Aerith thinking Sephy is hot, there's not much I didn't remember. But yes, it looks to be implied that Zack would be one of the fragments she came across. Which makes sense. She didn't KNOW he was dead, so why would she call for him? He is also, apparently not the only one she brings up to help her, but he does seem to be the only one that she keeps with her.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So, re-read the Lifestream stories and aside from Aerith thinking Sephy is hot, there's not much I didn't remember. But yes, it looks to be implied that Zack would be one of the fragments she came across. Which makes sense. She didn't KNOW he was dead, so why would she call for him? He is also, apparently not the only one she brings up to help her, but he does seem to be the only one that she keeps with her.

Doesn't that contradict the end of Crisis Core and also what we know about who Aerith can sense? Maybe she didn't admit it to herself in life, but she had to have known that her boyfriend had died just outside of Midgar if she knew that Elmyra's husband died half a world away.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Doesn't that contradict the end of Crisis Core and also what we know about who Aerith can sense? Maybe she didn't admit it to herself in life, but she had to have known that her boyfriend had died just outside of Midgar if she knew that Elmyra's husband died half a world away.

I'd agree, but we witness Aerith put herself in denial through all of FFVII. She even meets Zack's parents and plays dumb, says he probably hooked up with another girl...etc. Denial, I would assume, doesn't stop at her death. She is still Aerith, and with her full memories intact.

Of course, it's not written that she didn't seek Zack out specifically, **shrug** because none of the spirits that she knows are named. She may have. Lifestream White/Black are more about Cloud.

I just think the idea of using them to disprove Aerith's feelings for Zack is stupid. Which was what the initial posting was asserting. If she loved him so much, why not fetch him immediately.

The reasons are numerous, to be sure, but also speculation.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'd agree, but we witness Aerith put herself in denial through all of FFVII. She even meets Zack's parents and plays dumb, says he probably hooked up with another girl...etc. Denial, I would assume, doesn't stop at her death. She is still Aerith, and with her full memories intact.

Of course, it's not written that she didn't seek Zack out specifically, **shrug** because none of the spirits that she knows are named. She may have. Lifestream White/Black are more about Cloud.

I just think the idea of using them to disprove Aerith's feelings for Zack is stupid. Which was what the initial posting was asserting. If she loved him so much, why not fetch him immediately.

The reasons are numerous, to be sure, but also speculation.

But this isn't exactly Aerith's Feelings Toward Who Is/Isn't Dead The Novella so much as her attempts to bring together a bunch of people to try and get allies. I'd assume the main reason why she wouldn't have been able to find him at the time would be that he'd be mostly integrated with the Lifestream at that point. But either way, I have no idea how that'd prove/disprove her feelings toward him.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

But this isn't exactly Aerith's Feelings Toward Who Is/Isn't Dead The Novella so much as her attempts to bring together a bunch of people to try and get allies. I'd assume the main reason why she wouldn't have been able to find him at the time would be that he'd be mostly integrated with the Lifestream at that point.

Agreed.

But either way, I have no idea how that'd prove/disprove her feelings toward him.

You'd have to ask Quexi, who wants to know: And again, you are missing my point. If Zack's her true love... Why didn't she call upon him as soon as she died? Why didn't she think, "OH sweet I can see that Zack guy again, awesome!" She waited. We know she waited because he isn't mentioned at all in CoLW.

 

[Dashell]

I'm fairly certain but the time FFVII ended, Aerith knew Zack was dead, especially after talking to his parents.

 

[Ite]

Well, technically you can skip that whole town. I don't know what that does to anyone's precious canon.

 

[minimosey]

I think she knew the whole time, just didn't want to talk about it and didn't see a need to. The only people she knew in life needed to be told were his parents and she couldn't do that without sounding crazy and/or upsetting them with no reassurances to offer (she doesn't know what Zack had been doing, she didn't see him die, she doesn't know if/where he's buried, she doesn't know if anyone found him, she just knows he's dead because The Planet Said So).

As for why she doesn't search him out before FF7 ends...there's a Meteor in the sky and a Holy that needs to be freed. Then she's busy trying to heal Geostigma'd souls. Woman can't catch a break! She's trying to find other souls she knows not because she knows them, but because they're the ones she can get help from and she needs help.

I mean, look at it one way--she waited two years before giving Cloud hallucinations on his bike and meeting up in the church. Did she want to wait that long? No, she's all eager to see him again. But it's just bad timing and protect planet/heal lifestream/get help/wtf are you doing Sephiroth/get chased off old man Seph's lawn and everything with her for two years is Cetra Business time, not Relax with Love Interest of Choice time.

...this sounds like an awfully sucky afterlife, actually.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Quexi, it's RIGHT AFTER she talks to HIS PARENTS that she says he probably found someone else, because he was a 'real ladies man' or some shit. Does that sound to you--at all--like a woman accepting of his death? FFS, pay attention to that much at least before throwing out supposition that she didn't "love" him based on the fact that she didn't pull his ass up from the goop the moment she entered it. She had convinced herself he was ALIVE. EVEN AFTER MEETING HIS PARENTS AND HEARING THEM SAY HE WAS MISSING.

**head to wall**

 

[null]

Discussing who Aerith loves is so much more interesting tbqh.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I think Aerith loved them both. She loved Zack and superimposed that onto Cloud initially, but then, once she realized her mistake it's not like you can just 'shut off' emotions. Would she have loved the 'Real' Cloud...? Hard to say. But I believe she loved her version of him, yes. Not really all that interesting of a debate topic, if you ask me, but since who Cloud loved is been beaten to a pulp, I'm game.

Also, Hi, Null! How's the wife liking the Vampire Dawson series? Did you snag her the books yet?

 

[minimosey]

I don't think her image of him was completely idealized, especially post-death--she does realize he's really messed up toward the end and describes him as having a very fragile heart. Though obviously she doesn't know him as well as she could have if she'd lived (unless we go with the "lol always watching Cloud" route I've seen some people take, which...no ) and I kind of wonder if, even if they loved each other, would they be able to live with each other over a long time?

So yeah, basically I'm another vote for "both".

 

[null]

I think Aerith loved them both. She loved Zack and superimposed that onto Cloud initially, but then, once she realized her mistake it's not like you can just 'shut off' emotions. Would she have loved the 'Real' Cloud...? Hard to say. But I believe she loved her version of him, yes. Not really all that interesting of a debate topic, if you ask me, but since who Cloud loved is been beaten to a pulp, I'm game.

It's more fun because no one ever seems to take Aerith's word for who she loves now. Besides, I think I like Aerith more than Cloud at this point anyway.

Also, Hi, Null! How's the wife liking the Vampire Dawson series? Did you snag her the books yet?

Hello.

We have fun watching it. I think she just has the hots for Sensitive Vampire Guy so I'm not sure she'd bother to read the novels. Besides, they're regular vampires in the books. She'd be confused with all the Twilight missing from them.

 

[Dashell]

FFS, pay attention to that much at least before throwing out supposition that she didn't "love" him based on the fact that she didn't pull his ass up from the goop the moment she entered it. She had convinced herself he was ALIVE. EVEN AFTER MEETING HIS PARENTS AND HEARING THEM SAY HE WAS MISSING.

Really? I remember that differently... sucks. Lol sorry I haven't played the game in freaking ages except for one little part

But you said Aerith reconstructed him, right? So when do you think she finally realized he was dead?

Would she have loved the 'Real' Cloud...? Hard to say. But I believe she loved her version of him, yes

Even without Maiden, I think she knew who the real Cloud was by the time Lifestream White began.

 

[Vendel]

Even without Maiden, I think she knew who the real Cloud was by the time Lifestream White began.

Really? Did Cloud transmit this knowledge through his fist in the Temple of the Ancients?

 

[Dashell]

I'll say no but only on the condition that I get to stop talking to you.

 

[Max Caulfield]

Really? Did Cloud transmit the knowledge through his fist in the Temple of the Ancients?

Yes, that's when she began to see Cloud for the abuser he was.

 

[Dashell]

SHe knows she likes it

 

[Vendel]

I'll say no but only on the condition that I get to stop talking to you.

Don't make me destroy you.

 

[Dashell]

...

see now I'm curious, go for it

 

[Celes Chere]

So when do you think she finally realized he was dead

She realized he was dead at the end of Crisis Core. She just didn't want to accept it. Or, she accepted it and tried to hide it.

I think she knew who the real Cloud was by the time Lifestream White began.

You THINK? So you don't actually have proof of this? Maiden tells us that she doesn't know who the real Cloud is, and I know you find Maiden to be canon. So, why do you think Aerith knows him in CoLW?

 

[Dashell]

So, why do you think Aerith knows him in CoLW?

Because in Maiden at one point she FINALLY learns who the real Cloud is and she's all happy and CoLW takes place AFTER Maiden

She realized he was dead at the end of Crisis Core. She just didn't want to accept it.

FHS is making it out to be like she really didn't know at all or something. Or is it that she was such in heavy denial she really didn't believe it?