The OG+the Compilation

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
So, since Blankbeat flounced, I suppose I will not respond to her posts, except to say that that quite a number of her arguments rely on twisted quotes and tortured logic. If she comes back I'll respond more in full, but why waste my energy on someone that's left already?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@Enthralled
@Ryushikaze

So, yes, let's put the "peevish feelings" and "complicated feelings" things to rest here.

Ryu's point remains in either case that one person's insecurities don't dictate another's affections. Neither the presence of them for someone else nor a lack of them for the one feeling insecure.

And the more important point remains to begin with, of course, that having affection for one person doesn't diminish it for another. Proving that the sun is out doesn't indicate that there aren't also other stars in the firmament.
 

Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
I question what little I have left of my sanity, honestly. I find it reductive to all three characters to make ipso facto value judgments on love and feelings only to relate them to how relationships succeed or fail.

The no wedding no baby argument is just silly.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
@Enthralled
@Ryushikaze

So, yes, let's put the "peevish feelings" and "complicated feelings" things to rest here.

Ryu's point remains in either case that one person's insecurities don't dictate another's affections. Neither the presence of them for someone else nor a lack of them for the one feeling insecure.

Exactly, so Tifa feeling jealous of Aerith getting along well with Cloud immediately doesn't mean Cloud loves Aerith, EVEN IF that is exactly what Tifa was afraid of (I do not think it is, mind. I really do think it's much more being jealous of the ease with which Aerith can approach people and break down barriers, something she has trouble with)

And the more important point remains to begin with, of course, that having affection for one person doesn't diminish it for another. Proving that the sun is out doesn't indicate that there aren't also other stars in the firmament.

See also: You don't prove Cloud proves one woman by attempting to prove he doesn't love the other. You wanna prove he loves someone, present a coherent argument, don't focus on tearing down evidence for the other woman. Or the other woman, for that matter.


Only tangentially related, but since Tres mentioned firmament, don't be a flat earther. Bad idea all around.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I'm confused about the thread's objection.
Isn't FF7R part of Compilation, the 5th one after BC, CC, AC, DC? Elements in FF7R would be more relevant to the rest of the compilation to be talked about, even the LTD. OG is the stand-alone game.
For example, one party would keep saying Zack and Aerith weren't serious as it's depicted in OG, but CC debunked it. And FF7R portrays them as CC did.

EDIT: Oh, wait. The thread exists lol. Sorry about that.
 
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DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Someone said I should post this here, so I guess I will.
It's not really a proof concerning any shipping. A ship can mean different things, that you think two people are together canonically, or should be together canonically, or that you simply enjoy the concept of them together, or that you think the story works better with them together.

In this case, it is more an analysis of a part of the story and why it work so well in my opinion, specifically when analyzed through the lens of one particular ship. You can use that as an indication that this was probably intentional, or you can see it as a happy accident that this just simply HAPPENED to turn out very well. To me personally, I don't make a conclusion about it, I think it's probably partially intentional, but I mostly think that this, along with some (honestly, "all") other aspects of the story, simply works better and more naturally when analyzed through the lens of a Cloud and Tifa pairing.

Hope someone finds it interesting to read. FFVII (and IX) caused me to study game design so I spent a LOT of time thinking and analyzing it.

I posted it in response to a discussion about who the heroine of FFVII is, Aerith or Tifa. So this is my, for lack of a better word, "professional" opinion.

Stories generally have both internal and external struggles, the internal struggles need to be resolved before the hero can resolve the external struggles, they are usually the more important part of a story, they are what gives it depth, weight, and meaning. The external struggles are usually just the vehicle which is used to deliver the actual soul of the story, which is the internal, human element.

Aerith in FFVII is the heroine of the external struggle. Tifa is the heroine of the internal struggle.

While Aerith has the task of stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, a very tangible and obvious goal, Tifa's is tasked with helping Cloud resolve his internal struggles (which are resolves as a direct consequence of Tifa resolving her own).
It's that resolving of the internal struggle that puts Cloud in the narrative position where he is able to succeed where he failed before.
He faces Sephiroth while his internal issues weren't solved yet and loses, then resolves them and through doing so finds the hidden power to succeed. This is classic writing.

This is the result of a choice that Aerith and Tifa both have to make in FFVII which cements their position within the story that's being told, while their relative roles are presented as relatively free and fluid in the early parts of the game, resulting in the LTD, those roles are firmly determined by the end.

Tifa and Aerith mirror each other throughout the story, Aerith is like Tifas reflection, the same, yet opposite.

The classic example of this is how Tifa looks sexy and outgoing when she's actually more shy and reserved, while Aerith is actually the flirty outgoing one despite her looking shy and reserved. But it goes deeper than that. The mirroring is present throughout their character arcs, starting 7 years before the beginning of the game.

About 2 years before Nibleheim, Cloud leaves Nibleheim and Tifa, an action that instigates Tifas romantic interest in him. Something that simmers in her for the next two years. Around the same time, Aerith meets Zack and starts being attracted to him. This lasts for 2 years.

When we get to Nibleheim, we see Cloud pining after Tifa and Zack after Aerith, both are having problems communicating, Cloud because he's literally too ashamed to talk to Tifa, Zack because his job keeps getting in the way.
We also see Tifa and Aerith both making attempts to approach their respective love interests in some way. Aerith is attempting to call Zack, Tifa is asking about Cloud, and talking about dreaming of being saved by a blond soldier or something to that nature.

Both Cloud and Zack have a promise that needs to be fulfilled, but, spoiler, seemingly won't be until the resolution of FFVII.
Cloud has promised to come protect Tifa when she's in need. Zack has promised to make Aeriths 23 tiny wishes come true, which eventually turns out to be one wish "I want to spend more time with you".

Nibleheim happens, and Cloud, for the second time in his life, fails to protect Tifa, he fails his promise, and for the next 5 years, Zack and Cloud seemingly disappear from the face of the planet. During this time, both Aerith and Tifa in some way are trying to cope with what they've lost, and are left feeling alone.
Tifa has lost nibleheim, her connection to Soldier, and therefore, Cloud. She doesn't know the truth of Cloud being there 5 years ago, and that that's really when he was torn from her.
Likewise, Zack is torn from Aerith, a guy she was developing strong feelings for, and in a way, a representation that not everything Shinra is bad in her Shinra dominated life.
She doesn't know what happened to Zack, but in some way feels that he's still alive, and still wears pink 5 years later in remembrance of her promise to him, to wear pink on their next date.

Zack and Cloud escape and Zack dies. Being drenched in Mako, having mind reading Jenova cells, Sephiroths influence, as well as his own insecurities cause Cloud to become a twisted amalgamation of himself and memories and ideas about Zack and who Cloud believes he should be. Instead of a weak failure, he's a stoic badass hero, who is able to protect the girl and do everything by himself, he's Zacks living legacy. Aerith feels Zack die, knows deep down something is wrong, and reluctantly tells herself that she needs to move on.

The stage of our play is set.

From this moment on Zack can be seen as Clouds reflection, both represented by this one entity (ZaCloud), and everything about Tifas bond and story with Cloud is mirrored in Aeriths bond and story with Zack.

Act 1: Our heroines meet ZaCloud, and in him, both are in a way reunited with their past love, to both, he represents something they thought they had lost, now unexpectedly returned to them. To Tifa, here is a last connection to Nibleheim and her childhood, and the boy she had developed a crush on. To Aerith, here is history repeating itself, another Soldier falls through her roof, and in him she sees Zack.

Both girls waste no time treating him as the person they believe and want him to be. Tifa talks to him like he's a precious friend whose she's always shared feelings with, and the soldier she thought he'd become, her Hero, finally come back to save her in her hour of need. When she realizes he is planning to leave, she panics, not wanting to lose him again.
Aerith conversely immediately starts trying to relive her time with Zack vicariously through Cloud. She immediately offers him a date in payment, something she learned from Zack, and starts interviewing him about this guy she's supposedly "over".
Even though Cloud on the surface clearly doesn't enjoy being interacted in with in that way, Aerith still talks to him the way she would with Zack, assuming, hoping, and wanting him to actually be like that. When Zack left, she lost him, and now she goes out of her way to stay with Cloud this time.

However, it doesn't take long for both girls to realize that there is something wrong with ZaCloud, he's clearly not who he's pretending to be.
Both the girls have a pre-existing relationship and ties with ZaCloud.
The difference is that Tifa's ties with ZaCloud come from his ties with the real Cloud, while in a perfect mirroring, Aeriths ties with ZaCloud come from her ties with Zack.
Intellectually, Tifa knows this has to be her Cloud in some way, but emotionally, she's afraid that he's not. Tifa wants the real Cloud back but is afraid that the "real Cloud" is not who she thinks he is.
Aerith knows intellectually that Cloud is not Zack, but emotionally she doesn't. Her feelings for Zack have latched onto this person, and she doesn't understand how or why. She tries to rationalize her feelings and wants to meet the real Cloud, and the hopes that that would explain and resolve her emotions.

Both girls are looking for the "real Cloud", and want the real Cloud to be who they are looking for, but as it tragically turns out, for only one of the girls the "real Cloud" will be the person her heart is searching for.

Act 2:
Throughout FFVII Cloud interacts with both girls, and both girls enable his delusions in some ways, Tifa refuses to refute Clouds fake persona. Even so, she's symbolic of who he actually is, a reminder of the person he's running away from, she is reality.
With Aerith he's literally living out his delusion of being Zack's living legacy, a cliché fantasy of being a powerful hero soldier out to save the magical girl, she is fantasy.

However, then reality hits like a freight train, Sephiroth kills Aerith, and Cloud, even now, even as a soldier, once again, fails to save anyone. He is no different, it's Nibleheim all over again. His delusions weren't real, and now he needs to pay the price of trying to live a fantasy.
Cloud loses his grip on what is reality and what is fantasy, not knowing who he is he is taken over by Sephiroth, hands him the black Materia, and falls into the lifestream.
This is ZaClouds final act.

Now throughout act 2, we've seen Clouds psyche break down. And both Aerith and Tifa are put in a position where they have to make a choice in their heart concerning Cloud, what he means to them, and what they are to him. For Aerith, this happens near the end of act 2.

Cloud gives the Black materia to Sephiroth at the temple of the ancients, and proceeds to violently beat Aerith. Afterwards Cloud has a vision of Aerith running away from him, going where he can't follow, and telling him to take care. When Cloud wakes up, Aerith is gone.
While Aerith doesn't blame Cloud for beating her, she realizes that she can't take on the burden of saving the planet and Cloud as well. She realizes that she'd been selfish, doing Cloud a disservice by bringing him along on a quest that clearly was having a toll on him mentally. She realizes that she shouldn't have been relying on him and burdening him with her past. She'd been trying to save him, thinking that was her role, the Zack connection made her think that Clouds broken identity was "their story", but now acknowledges that she didn't really know who he was and that perhaps, her desire to see Zack again in Cloud made her insert herself into a story that perhaps, was about someone else.

Aerith is put in a position where she has to make a choice, between going off and saving the planet, leaving Clouds fate in the hands of others, or staying with Cloud, and letting other people go and save the planet. She chooses to go save the planet. This is her vital decision within the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is. This decision directly results in her resolving the external conflict of the game by summoning holy and stopping meteor. I also directly results in her death, and subsequent "reunion" with Zack, bringing her character arc full circle.
By the end of the game she discovers the truth about Cloud, her confusion is lifted, and she finally understands how she, Cloud, Tifa, and Zack, all fit into each others stories, and in a way, Zacks promise has been upheld, through ZaCloud, Aerith was able to fullwill her wish and spend a little more time with him.
Aeriths choice has cemented her role as the heroine of the external conflict of FFVII.

Qeue, act 3:

However, the game goes on, Cloud breaks down, and we are treated with a strangely familiar scene mirroring the one we had with Aerith in the forest of the ancients.
Cloud once again hands the black materia to Sephiroth, we then see a vision of Cloud running away from Tifa into darkness, going where she presumably can't follow. We see Tifas backstory, we see the doubt and fear in her heart, and the conflict she's feeling about the truth of who Cloud is. She finds Cloud, poisoned with Mako, completely catatonic, and is forced to make the same choice that Aerith was forced to make in the city of the ancients.

Should she stay with Cloud, and leave the fate of the world in the hands of the others, or should she leave Cloud, and go save the planet?
And opposite of Aerith, Tifa decides that no matter what, her place is at Clouds side. Before even entering the life stream she decides in her heart that the man in front of her IS the real Cloud, just Cloud after going through god knows what. It's no longer what he went through, when she decides to stay by his side no matter what, it becomes what "THEY" have gone through. Whatever happened in the past happened to THEM, and whatever happens in the future will happen to THEM, this is "their story".

This is her vital decision in the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is, as a direct result of this, she falls into the lifesteam, enters Clouds sub-concious, and resolves Clouds inner struggle by retracing who he is, and what makes Cloud Cloud. The plotpoint of the promise is resolved when it is discovered that Cloud came for her in Nibleheim, that they did go through that together, that it was indeed "their story". That from the beginning, the person who had set it all in motion for Cloud, and was the one person who could resolve it, was Tifa, through the feelings he had locked inside his heart, for "Tifa Lockhart".
Tifas choice cements her role as the Heroine of the internal conflict of FFVII.

Cloud is restored, he faces reality and realizes and accepts that he's not Zack, that he can't do it alone, and together with and through his friends he finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth as a result of his internal struggle being overcome.

So both Tifa and Aerith are the heroine in their own way.

It's not a proof of any specific ship, but it's an example of why I think one ship is superior to the other, because I've noticed that to me it just universally enriches the characters and stories, and makes them flow more naturally within the grounded, complicated nature of FFVII.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
@Enthralled
@Ryushikaze

So, yes, let's put the "peevish feelings" and "complicated feelings" things to rest here.

Ryu's point remains in either case that one person's insecurities don't dictate another's affections. Neither the presence of them for someone else nor a lack of them for the one feeling insecure.

And the more important point remains to begin with, of course, that having affection for one person doesn't diminish it for another. Proving that the sun is out doesn't indicate that there aren't also other stars in the firmament.
Uhhh...

Just saw this reply and I wanted to respond real quick:

Sure -- Tifa's jealous feelings do not 100% prove Cloud has continued romantic feelings for Aerith. You are speaking from a very technical perspective. Because yes -- of course you are right (technically).

I'm simply looking at it from a COMMON SENSE perspective.

Tifa is jealous because Cloud is (obviously) still in love with Aerith -- the woman specifically referred to as Tifa's "love rival."

It is literally obvious common sense.

Tifa observes exactly what us Clerith's have observed for years: Cloud is still in love with Aerith -- even in death. And he seeks to be with her in numerous cameos and homages, and is confirmed to have loved her by Terra in WoFF.

Given that this is a 3-person love triangle (ie: anything having to do with Zack is irrelevant because he isn't in the love triangle), it is literally COMMON SENSE why Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings for the only other girl in the love triangle -- a girl referred to as Tifa's "love rival."

Furthermore...

Are you suggesting SE is making Tifa jealous for no reason at all?

I always hear Cloti's say: "having Cloud stay in love with Aerith after she dies is bad writing!" -- "Why would you write a story where a guy is still in love with a dead girl! That's horrible writing!"

Well, I think it's horrible writing to make Tifa jealous for no valid reason.

I mean, sure, you could argue it makes her more "complex" and "human."

But I think it's obvious common sense why SE decided to make Tifa jealous -- she observes what us Clerith's have observed for years: Cloud still loves Aerith. Even in death.

Cloud's guilt is due to letting the woman he loved die (ie: a classic star-crossed romance). The very reason Cloud and Aerith developed a romance was so that when she died, her death would be that much more meaningful and impactful.

Personally, I think love beyond death, star-crossed lovers, and the continued reunion of Cloud and Aerith in cameos is beautiful storytelling. Reminds me of my favorite movie "Titanic."

Anyway --

Either Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings of love for the only other woman in the 3-person love triangle, or SE is making Tifa a DELUSIONAL jealous woman (which would be pretty stupid on SE's part -- HORRIBLE writing).

And yes -- I know Tifa has been shown to be insecure throughout the FFVII compilation. But I think she's shown to be insecure for VALID reasons.

I mean -- come on. Cloud is still pinning over the only other girl in the 3-person love triangle. Of course Tifa is jealous. Why? Because Cloud still loves Aerith (even in death). OBVIOUS COMMON SENSE.

The logical conclusion is that SE made Tifa jealous for a VALID reason -- which is a reason that has been obvious to us Clerith's for years: even in death, Cloud still loves Aerith -- the only other woman in the official love triangle -- Tifa's "love rival."
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Given that this is a 3-person love triangle (ie: anything having to do with Zack is irrelevant because he isn't in the love triangle), it is literally COMMON SENSE why Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings for the only other girl in the love triangle -- a girl referred to as Tifa's "love rival."

I didn't bother saying this last time you were here, but if you're going to keep harping on this "officially established love triangle" concept of yours, I'm going to ask that you tell me who the heck Nomura was talking about in that one "Reunion Files" comment when he said Tifa is a koibito to someone. i.e. Who loves her romantically that it's worth mentioning in the context of that movie?

It can't be Johnny, Rude, or anyone else -- not because the former isn't present or mentioned in the movie at all and the latter barely interacts with her in it; but becuase you yourself have insisted such terminology can't apply to anyone not in the "officially established love triangle," with its strict, exclusionary parameters that -- let's just be frank -- you decided upon all by yourself.

If you would prefer to just let all this nonsense go, I promise I am perfectly fine with that. Please do not feel obligated to respond or continue this.

Blank said:
I always hear Cloti's say: "having Cloud stay in love with Aerith even in death is bad writing!" -- "Why would you write a story where a guy is still in love with a dead girl! That's horrible writing!"

I want to go ahead and give you fair notice: two folks got temporarily banned from this section yesterday for making unpleasant generalizations about Clerith fans. You didn't say anything particularly bad here beyond attributing a (nonsensical) argument to an overly broad grouping rather than a specific individual, but I just want you to be firmly aware that we're seriously not putting up with the toxic behavior that characterized this topic in the past.

If people insist on debating this shitshow here, they're going to do it according to this officially established love triangle: civility, intellectual honesty, and the ban button.

Blank said:
Well, I think it's horrible writing to make Tifa jealous for no valid reason.

Blank said:
And yes. I know Tifa has been shown to be insecure throughout FFVII. But I think she's shown to be insecure for VALID reasons.

Blank said:
I mean, sure, you could argue it makes her more "complex" and "human."

I would categorize all of that as a good reason.

Blank said:
Personally, I think love beyond death, star-crossed lovers, and the continued reunion of Cloud and Aerith in cameos is beautiful storytelling. Reminds me of my favorite movie "Titanic."

It's an excellent movie, yes, but I'm not sure citing it serves the case you're making here. Rose didn't remain in love with only Jack for the rest of her life, chaste, alone and unhappy. The woman went on to live a very full and fulfilling life, just as Jack wanted for her.

Blank said:
Either Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings of love for the only other woman in the 3-person love triangle, or SE is making Tifa a DELUSIONAL jealous woman (which would be pretty stupid on SE's part -- HORRIBLE writing).

I would consider it horrible writing to depict Cloud as taking advantage of a deluded, pathetic clinger who knows an unattainable lover reciprocates no romantic interest in her even as she continues providing him a place to live and he mooches off her hard labor to get a motorcycle.

Do we define "common sense" that differently? If so, we really should leave this conversation here. Can we just do that, please?
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Uhhh...

Just saw this reply and I wanted to respond real quick:

Sure -- Tifa's jealous feelings do not 100% prove Cloud has continued romantic feelings for Aerith. You are speaking from a very technical perspective. Because yes -- of course you are right (technically).

I'm simply looking at it from a COMMON SENSE perspective.

Tifa is jealous because Cloud is (obviously) still in love with Aerith -- the woman specifically referred to as Tifa's "love rival."

It is literally obvious common sense.

Tifa observes exactly what us Clerith's have observed for years: Cloud is still in love with Aerith -- even in death. And he seeks to be with her in numerous cameos and homages, and is confirmed to have loved her by Terra in WoFF.

Given that this is a 3-person love triangle (ie: anything having to do with Zack is irrelevant because he isn't in the love triangle), it is literally COMMON SENSE why Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings for the only other girl in the love triangle -- a girl referred to as Tifa's "love rival."

Furthermore...

Are you suggesting SE is making Tifa jealous for no reason at all?

I always hear Cloti's say: "having Cloud stay in love with Aerith even in death is bad writing!" -- "Why would you write a story where a guy is still in love with a dead girl! That's horrible writing!"

Well, I think it's horrible writing to make Tifa jealous for no valid reason.

I mean, sure, you could argue it makes her more "complex" and "human."

But I think it's obvious common sense why SE decided to make Tifa jealous -- she observes what us Clerith's have observed for years: Cloud still loves Aerith. Even in death.

Cloud's guilt is due to letting the woman he loved die (ie: a classic star-crossed romance). The very reason Cloud and Aerith developed a romance was so that when she died, her death would be that much more meaningful and impactful.

Personally, I think love beyond death, star-crossed lovers, and the continued reunion of Cloud and Aerith in cameos is beautiful storytelling. Reminds me of my favorite movie "Titanic."

Anyway --

Either Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings of love for the only other woman in the 3-person love triangle, or SE is making Tifa a DELUSIONAL jealous woman (which would be pretty stupid on SE's part -- HORRIBLE writing).

And yes. I know Tifa has been shown to be insecure throughout FFVII. But I think she's shown to be insecure for VALID reasons.

I mean -- come on. Cloud is still pinning over the only other girl in the 3-person love triangle. Of course Tifa is jealous. Why? Because Cloud still love Aerith (even in death). OBVIOUS COMMON SENSE.

The logical conclusion is that SE made Tifa jealous for a VALID reason -- which is a reason that has been obvious to us Clerith's for years: even in death, Cloud still loves Aerith -- the only other woman in the official love triangle -- Tifa's "love rival."

Hi, @BlankBeat! It's nice to see you around again!!

For your arguments to be right we gotta take Tifa's POV, aka an unreliable narrator, as she's going through her own fears and insecurities regarding where her relationship and her family stand as the ultimate truth while disregarding everything that we learn in AC:C, interviews, and Ultimanias regarding Cloud's state of mind and where his feelings for Aerith stands post-OG. This is exactly what you doing here, disregarding everything that doesn't corroborate with your narrative while making Tifa's struggles all about a Clerith agenda of proving Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith. I don't know about you, but that seems more of a bad writing to me.

So, having CoT focuses more on the Aerith part of Cloud's guilt is simply because this is directly tied up with Tifa's insecurities, not Cloud's. It was never supposed to be a dip on his mind, but a dip on hers. AC:C proves just that as we learn Cloud wasn't only dealing with his guilt towards Aerith but also Zack and his own fears of losing the people that were precious to him.

The thing is, post-OG, there's very little room for interpretations where Cloud's feelings for Aerith (and Zack) stand since we been told many times and in many ways, and we also know that he solved all this by the end of AC:C and went back to his Seventh Heaven Family. And that's about it, really.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
I didn't bother saying this last time you were here, but if you're going to keep harping on this "officially established love triangle" concept of yours, I'm going to ask that you tell me who the heck Nomura was talking about in that one "Reunion Files" comment when he said Tifa is a koibito to someone. i.e. Who loves her romantically that it's worth mentioning in the context of that movie?

It can't be Johnny, Rude, or anyone else -- not because the former isn't present or mentioned in the movie at all and the latter barely interacts with her in it; but becuase you yourself have insisted such terminology can't apply to anyone not in the "officially established love triangle," with its strict, exclusionary parameters that -- let's just be frank -- you decided upon all by yourself.

If you would prefer to just let all this nonsense go, I promise I am perfectly fine with that. Please do not feel obligated to respond or continue this.
Cloud is also referred to as Aerith's "koibtio." Why would SE make Aerith a liar? Do you believe SE is making Aerith a liar?

We already have the "wavers" quote. We know Cloud "wavers" to both heroines at certain points.

From my perspective, Cloud "wavers" to Tifa during childhood and during the VARIABLE Highwind scene (variable evidence is inherently weaker evidence, IMO).

Nojima and Marlene observe that Cloud and Tifa don't work out, and Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings for Aerith. Nojima specifies that the reasons Cloud and Tifa don’t work out have nothing to do with geostigma or Sephiroth (ie: they probably have to do with Cloud's continued feelings for Aerith).

Based on the Clerith Gold Saucer date being the "normally occurring" date, and the beginning love point totals (Aerith automatically stays in 1st place unless you make pro-Tifa choices -- if you make anti-Tifa choices or favor both girls, Aerith stays forever in 1st place), it is clear to me that Aerith is the primary love interest for Cloud. And yes -- the love points don't show Cloud's affection. But they do show SE's affection and give insight into how they want most gamers to play the game (ie: they want most gamers to play it the Aerith way).

Sure, you can optionally rekindle a childhood romance through a variable scene, but the non-optional star-crossed romance is there regardless of the variable Highwind scene.

Tifa is the secondary love interest. Aerith is the original and primary love interest.

When both women are present, Cloud prefers Aerith. Only in childhood and after Aerith's death does Tifa stand a chance.

The prime example is in the Shinra jail cells. Cloud flirts with Aerith and Tifa gets jealous. That scene always confirmed to me that although Tifa is a possible choice for Cloud, Aerith is the PRIMARY choice that is pushed on you through the main narrative.

At the end of FFVII, Cloud reaches for Aerith. He hopes it is her. In AC, he finally locks hands with Aerith (something he was so close to doing in the original game). The scene in AC is a "homage" to the scene in FFVII. The symbolism is undeniable -- Aerith is the girl Cloud would be with if she had lived. And we also see in numerous cameos that he is always searching for ways to be with the woman he loved (ie: Final Fantasy Tactics; Terra from WoFF).

Again -- Tifa is a "koibito" to Cloud. But so is Aerith. And Aerith is the PRIMARY love interest. Tifa is the way you'd play on a second playthrough.

I mean, hell -- the very reason Aerith is pushed as the primary love interest is because of her death. It is just bloody common sense that due to the main narrative, Aerith is #1 and Tifa is #2. Even Tifa knows this to be true in Advent Children. Tifa's jealousy stems from the fact that Cloud prefers Aerith.

I was reading on Facebook a few weeks ago and a very casual Cloti fan posted a comment stating: "I prefer Cloud with Tifa -- but if Aerith lives in the Remake, I don't think Cloud is going to end up with Tifa."

I'm not saying Tifa isn't a possible option if you play the game a certain way. This is a love triangle and Cloud "wavers" to both at certain points.

But when Aerith is present, Tifa doesn't stand a chance in hell. And even in death, Tifa's jealousy confirms that even she knows she is 2nd place to Aerith.
 
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DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
I'm simply looking at it from a COMMON SENSE perspective.

I am sorry but it really isn't, I've literally never seen it like that, even in real life I've noticed that jealousy is often, if not most of the time, unfounded.

Tifa isn't Jealous of Clouds feelings, she isn't a mind reader, she's jealous because of her interpretation of his actions.
Tifa has even less to go by than we, she doesn't see his inner monologues, she doesn't see creator statements about why Cloud does what he does.
All she sees is Cloud running away from home, living in a church of a girl that she once competed with.
And she, like most people would, gets jealous. But that simply says nothing about the reasons Cloud does the things he does, and we KNOW the reasons and they have nothing to do with love.

It's been stated again and again that it's about guilt, that he's happy with Tifa but is being consumed by guilt and fear of losing this too.
Now that doesn't mean that he doesn't ALSO happen to love Aerith, it just proves that Tifa would be jealous of Aerith whether Cloud loves her or not. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

I always hear Cloti's say: "having Cloud stay in love with Aerith after she dies is bad writing!" -- "Why would you write a story where a guy is still in love with a dead girl! That's horrible writing!"
Well, because it is, obviously so, not only is it unrealistic to be hung up your entire life on someone you've known for a week, it's also unhealthy, obsessive, and anathema to themes of moving on. It's even insulting to Aeriths memory, since she, more than anyone else, would immediately want Cloud to start moving on and getting together with Tifa. There is no bigger Cloti fan than dead Aerith, that I guarantee you.

Honestly, after regaining his memories, Cloud having anything but confused feelings that he's unsure of how to place would be bad writing.
But eternal romantic love for the girl he knew for one week, the girl that he didn't even universally prefer over the other girl that he's known his entire life, and is spending the rest of his life with, and who saved him by reminding him of his love for her, that would honestly be twilight levels of bad writing.

This is one of the problems with Clerith as a ship, it poisons the concept of love, making it meaningless by putting it on the level of a unfounded, unhealthy obsession.


I am sorry, but nothing that you're saying here is common sense, it comes across as someone desperately trying to reach for an argument that they themselves know isn't valid.
Jealousy requires neither an extra love interest, nor being delusional, it only requires conflicts and misunderstandings.....and that is good writing, I am sorry.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
The pile-on is about to begin.

I was mainly trying to clarify my points to Tres.

My final reply to Tres will likely be all the energy I can spend on this debate.

If you want to know my final thoughts, please read above.

You and I fundamentally disagree.

Cheers!!
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Your assessment of jealousy in form and function is on point, @DutchDread -- but not this:

This is one of the problems with Clerith as a ship, it poisons the concept of love, making it meaningless by putting it on the level of a unfounded, unhealthy obsession.

All those negative things you mention are in no way inherently tied to Clerith as a ship.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Cloud is also referred to as Aerith's "koibtio." Why would SE make Aerith a liar? Do you believe SE is making Aerith a liar?

Only a Clerith deals in absolutes, she's not not lying, she's just making an offhand comment, she thinks of him as a bit of a sweetheart, sure, I have no problems with that, I've thought that about many people in my life.

The problem is, like with most Clerith arguments, that instead of trying to take all the evidence, looking at it in aggregate, and trying to see what nuanced interpretation fits the evidence best and most naturally. You instead start with one absolute view, and then try to use pieces of evidence to disprove other pieces of evidence in the hopes that by the end only the evidence that you find most convincing should be accepted.

But it doesn't work like that.
Aerith called Cloud her sweatheart because she had a crush on (fake) Cloud. That doesn't make it particularly deep, it doesn't say anything about who she prefers, Cloud or Zack, it doesn't say anything about whether or not those feelings are reciprocated, and it doesn't say anything about whether those feelings are justified, IE, are they just the result of her enjoying her time with fake Cloud (which means it's potentially just her liking Zack), or are they the result of a measured appreciation of Clouds character? Which we know it can't be, since Aerith doesn't know Clouds real character, as she admits.

Just because someone is wrong, inaccurate, uses imprecise language, or makes an offhand remark, doesn't mean they're instantly a liar. It's just another remark that has to be taking into account when evaluating what the characters overall, every changing emotions are throughout the story.
At WORST, she's lying to herself, it's not like she knows people are reading her thoughts and is trying to deceive them. People can be wrong, or lie, or be inconsistent, or change their minds, even to themselves.

From my perspective, Cloud "wavers" to Tifa during childhood and during the VARIABLE Highwind scene (variable evidence is inherently weaker evidence, IMO).
Ok, but that's you guiding the evidence. That's you desperately going "damn, he has to waver somewhere, how can I interpret that and try to fit it so that he's still obsessed with Aerith years later.
It's simply an unreasonable interpretation, and when you say you believe it, I don't believe you're being intellectually honest.


Based on the Clerith Gold Saucer date being the "normally occurring" date, and the beginning love point totals (Aerith automatically stays in 1st place unless you make pro-Tifa choices -- if you make anti-Tifa choices, Aerith stays forever in 1st place), it is clear to me that Aerith is the primary love interest for Cloud.
Unfortunately that is a meta argument that doesn't translate to in game emotions. It doesn't take into consideration the difference between narration and plot either. You know what, I think I might just get back to all of these later, there is just soo much wrong and poorly thought out about these arguments that I don't think I can really do it justice in one reply.

But before I get to that, let me ask you something about programming, just as an example.
What do you think the difference is between a character starting with 20 fewer affection points, and needing the same number of affection points to win, or a character starting with the SAME number of affection points, but requiring 20 more than the other, in order to win?
 
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Ruri

Pro Adventurer
I think Titanic is a good example of a relationship between two people happening in the briefest of flashes of time and that relationship being cherished for the rest of ones life of the one who survived. It has parallels, but I wouldn't go as far to say that Rose/Jack is a Cloud/Aerith copy. Far from it.

@BlankBeat , you have two things you do a lot in your posts, exaggerate Tifa's insecurity to it sounding like you're just diminishing her to a pile of jealous goo that constantly ranks herself next to Aerith on Cloud's love meter. The woman has businesses to run and two children to raise. I think she's a little busy for that? She is also not a character that only has one trait:Jealousy. The second thing is the overly focusing on the negative aspects of the Cloud/Tifa relationship. It's ok to discuss these things but lets not hold up a magnifying glass to one half and ignore the other? The other being Cloud being happy with Tifa post game and pre AC and then going on to being happy post AC.

Also, non main game cameos such as WoFF and Terra don't hold much water, and by much, I mean none, to the actual canon of the games compilation and info, of which several times it is mentioned Cloud and Tifa have feelings for one another, none of which, have Aerith notes attached to them to make sure you remember Cloud loved Aerith more. None. I think C/A easter eggs in other games, are just that, easter eggs. A nod to that pairing but they don't have the power to knock the OG, AC, etc off the table.

You have an iron grip on the knowledge that Cloud didn't get a 'choice' and your own interpretation that the one that was lost was the one Cloud loved most. But Cloud did get a choice, he actually got several. He chose Tifa every time. It doesn't mean a relationship can't have problems but I think it says a lot for the place where Cloud's heart was and kept going back to.

I can agree to Aerith being loved and lost and cherished. Cloud can love and cherish the time he spent with her, she's an absolute ray of sunshine who wrapped Cloud round her finger instantly and whom we know was the one Cloud wavered for as opposed to his only other love interest. Not to even get started what she meant to the/his story. Does any of this mean I think Cloud was had full confidence that he felt for her more? Nah. That's just an interpretation that doesn't really have a foundation to support it.

I had a lot more to type but as I was typing I noticed you said you have no more to say, so I wish you a good day!
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Your assessment of jealousy in form and function is on point, @DutchDread -- but not this:



All those negative things you mention are in no way inherently tied to Clerith as a ship.


Well, there is nuance of course, there always is, it depends on what kind of ship you're talking about. If you just enjoy the concept of Cloud and Aerith together, and think they'd be happy together if they were to spend their lives together, then no, that form of Clerith doesn't.

But when you start advocating for the idea that one week together can be a reasonable basis for real romantic love, let alone eternal love, then yes, I do think that inherently butchers the concept of love.
Love is a very specific thing, it's not infatuation, or a crush, or desire, all those things are possible in a week yes, but genuine romantic love between two people, one of which isn't himself? No, that's mutilation of the concept.

It's luckily something people seemingly are beginning to realize, since we see it depicted as unhealthy more often these days, reminds me a bit of "frozen", you can't marry someone you've known for a day, and it can't be true loves kiss.

The problem is that for love between two people to mean something, it inherently requires knowledge of who the other is, otherwise you are not loving a person, you are loving an idea. If you love a man because you think he's a good person, but unbeknownst to you he goes out at night to slaughter babies, then you didn't love that man, you loved an idea, that that man happened to resemble that idea.
For love to mean something you need to know who you are loving, you need to know and understand them inside and out, you need to know and understand them and appreciate that being as a whole.

this is the problem with unconditional love as well. If someone loves me unconditionally, then in what way is it ME that they're loving? If it's unconditional, then I could be a completely different person and they'd still love me, how is that meaningful? How is that love for me?
I love my girlfriend, I love the good parts and the bad, over the years the things about her that used to bother me have become a part of me, I love them because all of them together made this one complex being that has become a part of me as well. But it's not unconditional, it's a measured and informed appreciation of PRECISELY who she is.


If your brain does that in a week, there is honestly something wrong with your brain.
There are other reasons why there are problems with calling it love, but I won't go into all of them now.

Suffice it to say that I can imagine Cloud had strong feelings for Aerith when he wasn't himself.
And I can imagine that some of those feelings linger when he is himself, and I can imagine him deciding that even if he couldn't be sure that they were 100% genuinely his, that he'd decide to make them a part of him anyway, and treasure them.

But to equate them to the feelings a man feels for the woman he's shared his life with, his other half, who is lying in bed with his newborn child at her breast?
No, Aerith and Cloud never had that, and equating the two is insulting to the concept of love and everyone involved.

If you do, I had better not see any more of the negative generalizations or personal attacks I've seen from your previous two posts or you'll be getting banned from this section.

Ok... but I am not sure how I am supposed to argue that a position is wrong without clarifying what the position I am arguing against is. I generalized specifically because I didn't want to attack anyone specifically. Like I said, those are the things I think are wrong with the stance..."in general", generalizations are, generally, a good thing. If the position I am refuting doesn't apply to someone....then it doesn't apply to them.

Should I replace mentions of the word "you" with the word "someone" to make it clearer that I am not talking about anyone in particular?
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Frankly, you're being insulting to the concept of love as plenty of others legitimately experience it. Have your strict definition of it and apply it to your own life, but you don't get to gatekeep what qualifies universally.

Hell, by your own definition, short of a psychic or magical mind-meld, no one (including you) would ever even know if they actually loved another person, because the possibility always remains that they don't know something about them they would rather not speak of. =|

So I'm going to have to ask you to drop that line of argument.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Frankly, you're being insulting to the concept of love as plenty of others legitimately experience it. Have your strict definition of it and apply it to your own life, but you don't get to gatekeep what qualifies universally.

Hell, by your own definition, short of a psychic or magical mind-meld, no one (including you) would ever even know if they actually loved another person, because the possibility always remains that they don't know something about them they would rather not speak of. =|

So I'm going to have to ask you to drop that line of argument.

I am not sure I know how to, in order to have any sort of discussion some compromise about the meanings of words needs to be gotten to.

Surely, for any conversation about love to have any sort of merit, the question of what love actually is must necessarily be a LARGE part of the argument. Because if love can mean anything, then yeah, every character loves every other character. My problems with the way love is portrayed is identical to my problems with the way Jealousy was portrayed. If that's how someone experiences Jealousy, who am I to say that's wrong? But I did say it, and you said I was correct.

My main problem with the opposing side of the LTD argument is that I fundamentally don't think it's reasonable to describe the emotions described as love. Is that not a fair argument to make? And if we are not allowed to talk about the meanings of words, then how are we ever supposed to have a conversation that's not just two people talking blindly because neither is actually interpreting the thoughts the other is trying to convey accurately? If two people have different words for the same thing they might agree and yet never know it.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Putting words in Tres mouth here, but he's saying love isn't a zero sum game.
Did I say it was?
I very specifically don't think it is. I also love my brother, my mother, my friends, my cat, and many more things. Hell, I even believe that Cloud could technically love both Tifa and Aerith, I just don't think what he feels for Aerith can reasonably be described as genuine romantic love, whether Tifa exists or not.
People are free to disagree, but I should also be free to feel so, to voice that opinion, and to argue in defense of it.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Putting words in Tres mouth here, but he's saying love isn't a zero sum game.
That's not quite what I was going for, unless you mean in terms of how it's defined.

Surely, for any conversation about love to have any sort of merit, the question of what love actually is must necessarily be a LARGE part of the argument.

No. It is far more simple to proceed from the understanding that there isn't only a single genuine expression or actualization of the word.

Dutch said:
My problems with the way love is portrayed is identical to my problems with the way Jealousy was portrayed. If that's how someone experiences Jealousy, who am I to say that's wrong? But I did say it, and you said I was correct.

You were defying a reduction in jealousy's implications, but now you're promoting a reduction of what qualifies as love. Thus, my differing assessments and responses from before to now.

Dutch said:
My main problem with the opposing side of the LTD argument is that I fundamentally don't think it's reasonable to describe the emotions described as love. Is that not a fair argument to make?

You should feel more than welcome to argue that it doesn't fit the term as you personally subscribe to it. Applying it more broadly than that is unreasonable.

Dutch said:
And if we are not allowed to talk about the meanings of words, then how are we ever supposed to have a conversation that's not just two people talking blindly because neither is actually interpreting the thoughts the other is trying to convey accurately?

That's a big part of why the section is set up the way it now is, to get participants as close as possible to discussing the same content and keep them talking to each other rather than at, past, or about one another.

Did I say it was?
I very specifically don't think it is. I also love my brother, my mother, my friends, my cat, and many more things. Hell, I even believe that Cloud could technically love both Tifa and Aerith, I just don't think what he feels for Aerith can reasonably be described as genuine romantic love, whether Tifa exists or not.
People are free to disagree, but I should also be free to feel so, to voice that opinion, and to argue in defense of it.

You should feel free to discuss it as a philosophical matter elsewhere on the forum, but not to use it as a basis for discrediting other experiences (whether in this section or any other, but especially not here).
 
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