Things Tifa is not (Common Tifa misconceptions)

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Maybe it was just a big misunderstanding, I'm quite sure I wasn't arguing that Cloud is something useless without Tifa. I pointed out in my Tifa defense how Tifa believed in Cloud, how he could be someone great and capable of doing more than what he think he could. To be clear, for me, Cloud is not a normal, unremarkable person but a person who is mentally weak relative to his true potential.

Problem is that he needed the right push. When he fails the effect is amplified more than normal due to his mental weakness, Mako poisoning or Geostigma and he sinks lower. That's why I argued that he needed Tifa. If Cloud is at his lowest, he needs someone or something to pull him up to the point that he reaches his peak. And when Cloud is at his best self, he can do greater things than Tifa. So Cloud has the tendency to be either really weak or really strong.

At the Nibelheim incident, it was the anger towards Sephiroth because of what he did to Tifa, his mom and Nibelheim that drove him to unleash his potential. In the OG, arguably the Lifestream sequence, finding out his true self which actually stronger than the illusion he created. In AC, the dilly-dallying.

So I was just pointing out how Cloud needed Tifa to do the awesome things he was able to do but I never pointed out how he is incapable of doing anything without her. I'm not sure how I was bringing Cloud's character down with all of this.

You weren't, Vendel was.

 

[Unlucky]

So I was just pointing out how Cloud needed Tifa to do the awesome things he was able to do but I never pointed out how he is incapable of doing anything without her. I'm not sure how I was bringing Cloud's character down with all of this.

I guess the point that Danseru's trying to get across here is that Cloud can do magnificent things, but is an emotionally dependent person (to Tifa in particular). Which is.. correct. Cloud is great, but that I think is one of his obvious character flaws.

 

[Danseru-kun]

"Aerith seemed cheerful despite the horrible things, Tifa has a lot of anger inside her early in the story because of Shinra."
That's what you said, and it was supposed to contrast Tifa and Aerith when in fact Tifa was cheerful despite the horrible things as well.

I know every character has anger towards Shinra but at that part of my defense I was pointing out the contrast between Aerith and Tifa because they were being compared too much.

And early in the story of the OG I didn't see Tifa as someone cheerful, or not someone as obviously cheerful. She's not as angry as Barret but she's more of a serious type. Remember when Aerith was being chased by the Turks, she said "they must want me to join Soldier!" When Cloud sniffed Tifa's panties in Nibelheim, she was like "we're in the middle of something Cloud." Tifa had no time for humor unlike Aerith.

So basically I was saying that during the time Aerith was alive, Tifa was not as cheerful as her. And even if they are both cheerful, Aerith's anger was not really obvious unlike Tifa who was actively being anti-Shinra.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I know every character has anger towards Shinra but at that part of my defense I was pointing out the contrast between Aerith and Tifa because they were being compared too much.

And early in the story of the OG I didn't see Tifa as someone cheerful. She's not as angry as Barret but she's more of a serious type. Remember when Aerith was being chased by the Turks, she said "they must want me to join Soldier!" When Cloud sniffed Tifa's panties in Nibelheim, she was like "we're in the middle of something Cloud." Tifa had no time for humor unlike Aerith.

So basically I was saying that during the time Aerith was alive, Tifa was not as cheerful as her. And even if they are both cheerful, Aerith's anger was not really obvious unlike Tifa who was actively being anti-Shinra.

Why did you not see her as cheerful? Her default facial expression is a smile. And actually, when Cloud steals Tifa's panties she simply says "Cloud!!!", which is simply because she's probably shocked and embarrassed at the fact that he stole her panties. Hell, I wouldn't be surpirsed if she was laughing when she said it. And one does not need to have humor to be cheerful. And Aerith may have been serious when she said they must want her to join SOLDIER. If you think about it, it was probably the only reason she could think of at the time. Of course the real reason is they wanted her to help them find the promised land. I don't even think they let women join SOLDIER. However, she might have been joking, and Cloud's response was certainly a joking one, where he makes fun of her for thinking she's SOLDIER material. Interestingly enough, that's the only time in the game Cloud is seen laughing. it's also noteworthy that Zack's death is also the only time in the game Cloud cries.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Cloud is above the level of an unremarkable person. Not only did he manage to only get skinned kness from a fall that put Tifa in a weeklong coma, he managed to defeat Sephiroth as a lowly Shinra grunt, which was before he even managed to get SOLDIER enhancements. That's hardly normal and unremarkable.

These are all feats that are definitely above and beyond anything a normal human is likely to pull off, yes. They're also entirely physical feats quite different from resisting mako poisoning Even the most impressive bit, defeating Sephiroth, was all physical enhanced by raging, uncontrolled emotion. Not mental strength or willpower.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

These are all feats that are definitely above and beyond anything a normal human is likely to pull off, yes. They're also entirely physical feats quite different from resisting mako poisoning Even the most impressive bit, defeating Sephiroth, was all physical enhanced by raging, uncontrolled emotion. Not mental strength or willpower.

I think him defeating Sephiroth might've had something to do with willpower, but other than that, yeah, all physical feats.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I still see it as more emotion (specifically rage, betrayal, and sadness all pouring into Cloud's mind and enforcing each other) enhancing Cloud's physical ability allowing him to beat Sephiroth. In other words, basically a massive and extended duration Limit Break. Albeit some willpower would sort of have to come into it to keep that sort of rage even a little controlled, I'm not sure how in control of himself Cloud really was at that moment.

 

[Max Payne]

Willpower is fueled by emotion.

Having the strength of will to overcome his fears and weaknesses to attack someone who is widely hailed as the greatest warrior to ever live definitely played a big part in Cloud attacking Sephiroth.

His anger and rage is just what the fuse and pushed him to do something he would normally not have the willpower to do.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Why did you not see her as cheerful? Her default facial expression is a smile.

Well just saying, smiling in your portrait does not mean cheerful, her words and her actions are the ones that stick to me. If you're talking about her model, the only time I saw it so close is at the Highwind Scene.

I concede that the way I phrased my words implies that Tifa isn't cheerful at tough times but I think what I really meant is that she's not as obviously cheerful as Aerith and her anger is another contrasting quality of her. I did phrased that "Aerith seemed cheerful" so it's more of a perception thing than me defining her in contrast to Tifa. Just like what Death said posts ago, Tifa has a lot of anger but it doesn't mean it defines her character. She may be cheerful but it doesn't mean she can't get really angry.

Or to put this short, my notion of "cheerful" is a big grin on the face and lots of laughter whereas Tifa smiles in a reserved manner. Word problems I guess.

Interestingly enough, that's the only time in the game Cloud is seen laughing. it's also noteworthy that Zack's death is also the only time in the game Cloud cries.

Yeah Cloud smiling with Aerith was the only time he laughed but SE made sure to say he was under Jenova's influence that time. But hey he cried at Aerith's death!

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Well just saying, smiling in your portrait does not mean cheerful, her words and her actions are the ones that stick to me. If you're talking about her model, the only time I saw it so close is at the Highwind Scene.

I concede that the way I phrased my words implies that Tifa isn't cheerful at tough times but I think what I really meant is that she's not as obviously cheerful as Aerith and her anger is another contrasting quality of her. I did phrased that "Aerith seemed cheerful" so it's more of a perception thing than me defining her in contrast to Tifa. Just like what Death said posts ago, Tifa has a lot of anger but it doesn't mean it defines her character. She may be cheerful but it doesn't mean she can't get really angry.

Or to put this short, my notion of "cheerful" is a big grin on the face and lots of laughter whereas Tifa smiles in a reserved manner. Word problems I guess.


Yeah Cloud smiling with Aerith was the only time he laughed but SE made sure to say he was under Jenova's influence that time. But hey he cried at Aerith's death!

Nope. His eyes burned with rage.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

In Zack's death he just looked up in the sky and opened his arms. We only knew that he cried because of CC. As for Aerith's death, I dunno I don't think it's wrong to interpret it as either rage or crying.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^

In Zack's death he just looked up in the sky and opened his arms. We only knew that he cried because of CC. As for Aerith's death, I dunno I don't think it's wrong to interpret it as either rage or crying.

He might've been crying at Zack's death (he was probably all shedding manly tears and screaming "WHYYYYYYYYY!"), we don't know because they clearly didn't have the ability to animate tears yet, as evidenced by Yuffie and Tifa's "crying" at Aerith's death, where they made the motions of crying but no visible tears were shed. And he explicitly said his eyes were burning. People's eyes don't burn when they cry. His eyes were either burning out of anger, or Sephiroth sprayed mace in his eyes offscreen.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

"People's eyes don't burn when they cry"

Er ... yes they do =P It's not unheard of for people's eyes to burn/sting while crying/because of tears ... especially if onions are around

Mine's certainly do. Furthermore it's also not unusual for people to cry -while- they are angry. Never heard of tears of rage?

Cloud didn't seem so burning with anger/rage/the desire to get revenge straight away/at the time though ... to me ... more shocked/stunned ... upset ... Actually though it's in the script I think ... it was both

Sephiroth: Do not worry. Soon the girl will become part of the Planet's energy.
All that is left is to go North. The 'Promised Land' waits for me over the
snowy fields. There I will become a new being by uniting with the planet. As
will this girl......

Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!

Sephiroth: What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?

Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are..."

According to Sephy Cloud was both sad and angry Though I think he was referring to Cloud's gesture/reaction w/th "Of course! Who do you think I am" but I dunno.

Anyway Cloud was sad/upset at the time of Aerith's death and he felt pain ... and I also think it's reasonable he felt anger too once the shock had worn off.

I thought Cloud was making the motions of crying too ... his shoulders were heaving 'n stuff ... and he sort of burrows his head into Aerith while he's holding her ... to me this, along with the my eyes are burning/mouth is dry thing - having experienced similar symptoms myself while crying and knowing some other people also do - and Cloud saying he was feeling pain, made it make sense Cloud was/it was possible Cloud was crying/there were tears in the works ... I don't think it's unreasonable to think he/there might have been ^-^

Oh yeah nearly forgot to mention this, another reason I don't think it was only just anger/rage or the desire to get revenge against Sephiroth or anything like that just at that moment was Cloud's "Shut up ... your stupid plan doesn't mean at thing" line. Right then and there he didn't care about Sephiroth/about stopping Sephiroth. Just about what had just happened/the pain he was feeling.

-**

Very interesting read Danseru, I enjoyed reading it. Good article. Well done =)

 

[Ite]

When Cloud said his eyes were burning, I always thought that meant they were water-starved -- like his body was trying to cry but didn't know how, so he just hurt. That's what made that moment work for me. It happened so fast, his body was absolutely rocked from the experience, but for someone who is blocked from their emotions, they can't express them immediately. A lot of Cloud's rage imo comes from his confusion and overwhelmed emotional state and also his body's inability to properly reflect that. Instead, he just shakes and burns.

That made Sephiroth line "Don't pretend like you have feelings" so much more powerful to me.

It wasn't until ten years later when I came to TLS that I realized that people made fun of the cheeziness of that line. It never seemed cheezy to me. It seemed like a genuine expression of his self-loathing and confusion. Now that it's been pointed out, though, I see where they're coming from and can't quite un-see it.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

When Cloud said his eyes were burning, I always thought that meant they were water-starved -- like his body was trying to cry but didn't know how, so he just hurt. That's what made that moment work for me. It happened so fast, his body was absolutely rocked from the experience, but for someone who is blocked from their emotions, they can't express them immediately. A lot of Cloud's rage imo comes from his confusion and overwhelmed emotional state and also his body's inability to properly reflect that. Instead, he just shakes and burns.

That made Sephiroth line "Don't pretend like you have feelings" so much more powerful to me.

It wasn't until ten years later when I came to TLS that I realized that people made fun of the cheeziness of that line. It never seemed cheezy to me. It seemed like a genuine expression of his self-loathing and confusion. Now that it's been pointed out, though, I see where they're coming from and can't quite un-see it.

Gotta agree with Mr. Ite here. And do you really think your eyes burn when you cry Maiden? Seriously, go cry, and tell me if your eyes were burning. My eyes don't burn when I cry, but then again, like Cloud, I rarely cry. I have heard of people crying because their eyes were burning however, but never the other way around.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

This is a Tifa thread and we are actually getting into a different topic guys.

About the eyes burning thingy, no comment in terms literal meaning. But based on Cloud's actions he looks crying to me.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^

This is a Tifa thread and we are actually getting into a different topic guys.

About the eyes burning thingy, no comment in terms literal meaning. But based on Cloud's actions he looks crying to me.

I think he didn't have enough water in his system. Let's not forget that his mouth was also dry, showing he was probably dehydrated. He probably didn't have enough water in his system to cry. Perhaps if they showed us a HQ version of her death, the issue could be settled.

And on the topic of things Tifa is not, I can add to that. I've heard Tifa be called a tomboy, when in fact between her and Aerith, Aerith's the more tomboyish one. The real tomboy of the party, however, is Yuffie. Tifa is not a tomboy, she's a girl next door archtype. I've also heard people say that Tifa never wears pink, when in fact the stretched panties(known here in the states as the "orthopedic underwear") and the ribbon in AC prove them wrong. Tifa will wear pink, she just doesn't wear it that often. She seems to prefer black, white, and red over other colors. Her lips are also pink, and this means either she wears pink lipstick, or they're naturally that way. My money, however, is on the latter, since I've always seen Tifa as the kind of woman who doesn't need to wear makeup to be beautiful. I also once saw someone say that she doesn't like flowers, but buying a flower from Aerith and giving it to Tifa proves them wrong.

 

[Ite]

They live in Midgar. Everyone is desperate for flowers.

Tifa I always figured was a girly girl. The girly-part turned to ash with Nibelheim. But before that? The Mayor's daughter in a small town, piano player, etc. Wants a boy-hero to come rescue her. Yech.

She learned martial arts probably as self defense -- and probably in reaction to the "monster" situation that Sephiroth came to take care of (how long did it take them to drive to Nibelheim anyway?) Post-Nibelheim, she became a badass, but that doesn't make her a Tomboy. She went from girl to woman, the fact that she became a skull-crushing kickboxer doesn't change that at all.

 

[Unlucky]

^I agree with everything, Ite. The only thing that I'm not sure about is if Tifa's dad is the mayor. I've read countless fanfics depicting him as such but I always thought it was just fanon. Can anyone post any official statement to prove it? I've been wondering about it for a while now.

 

[minimosey]

From what I can tell, not explicitly stated but possibly implied.

Tifa's Father
I'm the town's... ...... ......!?

[later on]

If I knew this was going to happen, I would've made mountain climbing off limits...

Now the second dialogue could apply to only Tifa (If he'd known she was going to end up the guide, he would have forbidden her from climbing the mountain), but since it's not made specific it does end up sounding rather general. And he was going to introduce himself as the "town's"... Nibelheim's small enough that there's probably a few people who can introduce themselves as "the town's [profession]", but between those two lines, Tifa's house being bigger than the others, and how Tifa's father speaks to Sephiroth with a fair amount of authority, he does seem a likely candidate for mayor. Conversely, if he isn't the mayor, it's a bit weird that whoever actually is in charge doesn't come to meet the SOLDIERs from Shinra.

 

[Ite]

Holy crap. That's amazing. I was obsessed with the game alone for years before I became part of the fandom, and I came to the Mayor's Daughter conclusion on my own -- I thought it was completely evidenced by dialogue, but searching through the script I realize there's no actual evidence.

*mindblow*

 

[Danseru-kun]

I've always thought that Tifa was the town's mayor because of fanfics I guess, I never realized it's just a theory. But yeah, Tifa's house is indeed much bigger than everyone else's. Maybe they're landowners, there's a huge plain near Nibelheim anyway (and people can also own mountains right?)

 

[applet]

shes not a slut just because she has big boobs.

 

[Lex]

who said she was i so confused oppan gangnam style

 

[Cthulhu]