Tifa's design slammed by Eating Disorder Group

[clowd]

"If video game creators are going to pride themselves on accurate digital representations, then it's time for them to get real about women," Bulimia said.

"One could argue that the social pressures to obtain perfection are reinforced even through the depiction of video game characters," the group added. "Girl gamers--especially young ones--could develop a skewed image of how the female body should look. This might mark the beginning of obsessive thoughts about their own bodies, and self-questioning as to why they don't align with their perceived ideal. When dangerous, compulsive eating behaviors develop alongside of these negative obsessions, young women can quickly find themselves struggling with an eating disorder."

http://www.bulimia.com/examine/video-games-realistic-body-types/#

 

[Channy]

I like that after all those photoshoops, Tifa is still the skinniest of skinny bitches.

 

[Starling]

To be honest, most of their examples look pretty tame, as I don't see that big a difference, except for the Gerudo artwork. I think they did a shoddy job photoshopping Rikku, which might be due to her posture in the image they picked. Sonya Blade's proportions look kinda weird in both, though the photoshop helps fix most of it.

 

[Splintered]

The disappointing thing is that, both shoopers and Nomura alike, refuse to depict her with muscles. She's a hand to hand fighter, she suplexes demonwalls and giant mechs alike, draw her with muscles why is that so hard.

Also bring back red eyes.

 

[Starling]

Her eyes were probably never outright red but they were definitely a richer shade of brown that could pass as red. It would be nice to have some realistic musculature that accounts for body type and what kind of physical activities characters do. It's one of the things I like about Attack on Titan, whose author enjoys MMA and uses it as a base for how the characters are drawn. The lead female has a 6-pack and it doesn't detract from her looks at all.

 

[Jason Tandro]

My opinions on "portrayal of women in media" can be accurately summed up in one image:

I understand the social pressure that is forced upon women to have a certain body type, but the rise against that has lead to skinny shaming (though to be fair, I don't think any woman honestly has Tifa's proportions. 12 inch waist and a 36 inch chest? Ya no. )

Still I think the real concern should be about photoshopping real women in fashion magazines and the like. Artistry is always going to be derivative, representative of impossible proportions. At what point do we say "yes, this is worth getting upset about" or "no, this isn't something to get worried over."

Tifa is not being heralded as the female ideal (except maybe amongst over-horny gamer boys). Women who appear on fashion magazines getting their love handles shopped out are, and that's where I think the biggest problems lie.

 

[Starling]

The thing is that stuff like He-man is presented as a power fantasy. Women get caught between extremes where too "girly" and you're a slut. Too "manly" and you're unattractive. There is no way to win. The issue guys get is that not being "manly" enough leads to insecurities and there's still stigma tied to doing things that are "girly". In short, guys are expected to conform to society's idea of being a guy, while girls are simultaneously expected to be girly but not too girly and not too masculine. Basically, a lot of stuff that's valued gets gendered as masculine while things that are devalued are gendered as feminine, which is also evidenced in the way people speak. Be a man, grow a pair, man up, don't be a pussy, what a pansy, who wears the pants in the relationship and so on. It all boils down to valuing masculine things over feminine ones while expecting everyone to conform to gender roles.

Tifa's chest proportions actually are within the realm of possibility, from what I hear, though I don't know what the chest and waist size ratio is regarding both measurements. However, she's still nowhere near the extreme. I agree that photoshopping women in magazines is the more important thing to address.

 

[Jason Tandro]

The thing is that stuff like He-man is presented as a power fantasy. Women get caught between extremes where too "girly" and you're a slut. Too "manly" and you're unattractive. There is no way to win.

Again, another relevant image.

Spoiler: A pretty large image

Though I will argue about that sliding scale not applying to men too. Men who are "too masculine" are called meatheads, musclemen, etc and their intelligence is always called into question. Now are the social pressures applied as heavily to men, I can't say for certain but I doubt it's felt as heavily.

I, for one, pretty much accept that as a fat guy I'm going to get judged especially when I'm out in public with my super hot alt girl wife. They will assume that I'm a nerdy slob (they're not entirely wrong) and that she has some sort of fat fixation (again... not entirely wrong, though as my wife likes to put it "I'm a chubby chaser, not a whale watcher"). But do I honestly feel that me being judged on a personal level is as important as the social implications of false standards of beauty for both men and women? Obviously not.

 

[Starling]

I haven't really seen the meathead thing in a while so I don't know how frequent it is these days. I know that it's a bit like how women are less likely to be taken seriously for their intelligence if they look too pretty or distracting.

Getting judged unfairly for your weight relates to both genders. The thing is, it seems particularly pronounced muscles aren't necessarily as healthy as people think either. The human body requires a certain amount of fat to be healthy, which often makes muscles less pronounced. You have to be careful not to leave your body too bare of it in the process of burning off the excess. There's also how some people are naturally chubbier or thinner than others and can't really do much about it. Really, a healthy body is more than that.

Something more gender related that negatively affects both ends is that guys get looked down upon for showing too much emotion, as stuff like crying is considered weak. Meanwhile, it's more acceptable for women to cry, presumably due to implied assumption that they're supposed to be weaker. Women are seen as more emotional, to the point that some of it gets written off as overreacting, even in cases where they're being perfectly calm and objective about a problem. By the way, the image isn't showing up for me.

 

[Jason Tandro]

The image was that one that was popular a few months ago about the girl who has skirt length markings on her leg and each is labeled some derogatory name for a girl. It goes like: Slut, tease, cheeky, proper, prude, boring, old-fashioned, etc.

The meathead thing is still around, but it's not as popular as getting up in arms about social issues related to women (because let's be real people there's a hell of a lot more of them).

As far as the emotional thing and crying be considered weak, etc, that's a very very old societal stigma, like most of these things. There's probably a long and fascinating discussion that could be had about the evolution of gender roles in a literal sense, but that's for another time.

Again, I know anecdotal evidence is a "no-no" in debate, but speaking personally here, I used to not really cry at much. I might get bummed out over something sad, but to actually full on cry it would take something extremely emotional (or the Ave Maria from Fantasia which for reasons I can't explain just ruins me). Now that I've had a kid that happens more often, for really weird things, but I'm guessing that's parental stuff.

But I don't like to be seen crying and generally speaking I try to repress any urge to cry, rare as it might be. Even my wife who is incredibly open-minded says that men crying, myself included, kind of weirds her out. I don't want you to think she's unsupportive, she just says it's kind of odd to her.

 

[Tennyo]

Channy: I was thinking the same thing. More muscles, please. The girl trains hard.

Jason: He-Man existing didn't stop the dad-bod movement from existing. It is still more socially acceptable to be a fat man than a not-size-2 woman.

 

[Fangu]

Channy: I was thinking the same thing. More muscles, please. The girl trains hard.

YES PLEASE! With a healthy bit of fat too like Starling talked about. Like this: http://www.girlswithmuscle.com/images/full/289289233.jpg

 

[Octo]

Oh I could rant about this stuff all day. But yeah, the dissidia design is particularly ridiculous.

Feels like in most games, the only major variation in female body types is boob size. Everything else is equally skinny.

But really, videogame representations of human bodies makes up like....0.5% of the problem. It's fucking everywhere.

It's kind of funny how most people will accept that eye colour, hair color, skin colour, height are genetic and factors people have little or no control over. But when it comes to weight, there is this idea that we could all look like the 'perfect' woman (or man) if only we would try hard enough, and that we don't is because we're just greedy/lazy and therefore deserving of scorn.

Sure, if I had the money I could hire a personal trainer and a dietitan, and I could probably shrink myself. But it would occupy the majority of my life. That would suck balls. And if I was a celebrity, I'd still get photographed and have red circles printed around my knees for being too knobbly or some shit.

/rambling.

 

[trash panda]

Okay I have to go to work right now but I came here to say that I imagine Tifa with a body like:

Spoiler

 

[Clement Rage]

She seemed muscular enough in AC. Never played Dissidia.

Rippling six packs aren't really a sign of fitness or strength for most people, so much as having worked really hard to have them. (As in, bodybuilders and models need to be dehydrated for maximum effect, which is not a state to be in if you actually want to do something.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I don't think she has to be jacked or anything. Just more toned would do it.

Also, the Dissidia artwork was particularly egregious, she's not AS bad elsewhere if for no other reason than her legs actually look like they're coming from her torso.

As for AC, I don't know if she seemed muscular enough, but one cool thing about AC is that you can see muscles engaging when they should be. (The most obvious example I can think of is when Cloud lifts Denzel and brings him into the water. But you can see Tifa's arms flex during her fight, too)


But, as for eating disorders, I don't think video games are any more guilty of this than...everything else.

 

[Tennyo]

But does that mean it's not important? Does that mean we just ignore it?

At the end of the day game makers will do whatever they want but it's still a conversation that should be had.

Yes the girls are unrealistic. No, we don't have to look like them. It's important to acknowledge this. Just passing it off as nothing because "magazines do it, too," is only going to do more harm than good.

I'd say some of the views expressed in this thread are exactly WHY this conversation needs to happen.

 

[Jason Tandro]

But does that mean it's not important? Does that mean we just ignore it?

At the end of the day game makers will do whatever they want but it's still a conversation that should be had.

Yes the girls are unrealistic. No, we don't have to look like them. It's important to acknowledge this. Just passing it off as nothing because "magazines do it, too," is only going to do more harm than good.

I'd say some of the views expressed in this thread are exactly WHY this conversation needs to happen.

Okay, but here's the thing, it's an artist depiction, not something that is being passed off as an attainable human body.

Nobody is talking about how these girls are promoting a bad body image

You might say, but it's fantasy. Sure, but they're clearly human girls (edit: well humanoid, anyways). You might say it's a different art style that focuses more on parody. But at the end of the day, if you are going to critique one artist depiction, all depictions need to come under scrutiny.

I think rather than telling artists that they can't draw their characters the way they envision them, it is more important to look at the message of the character itself. Tifa is a character in a video game. The way her body looks is as much the end-all be-all of her character as Aerith's is.

Again, nobody is heralding these cartoon women as an attainable ideal of womanhood in any aspect. If they are role models it is only in what they've done and who they are, not how they look.

Edit: I get your argument, that anything that exists clearly has social impact and that any depiction of a woman can make some girl think she's not adequate. But unless the artist is intentionally saying "YOU SHOULD BE THIS" I think stuff like this where people are making such a damned big deal about it is a little over-sensitive.

Edit 2: Again, this hit a nerve with me or something, but why stop there? Why not censor or adjust all art we find offensive? Why not in the remake remove Tifa's childhood scene with Cloud because we don't want to portray her as dependant upon a man? Why not remove Barret being the leader of AVALANCE because we don't want to portray people of color as violent? Let's just make all characters the same homogenized image so that nobody gets offended?

 

[Tennyo]

Adventure Time isn't realistic in it's art style, though. Not to mention, Fiona is actually more curvy and I have seen girls mention that they appreciate the creators making her so. So yes, Fiona in Adventure Time DOES do more for positive female body image. Adventure Time has made more of an effort on this front than most other forms of visual entertainment.

Also, did you skip where I said that at the end of the day the game makers will do whatever they want? Because they can. But it is still important to get the message out there that no, we don't have to take it at face value. It's important to tell each other that we don't have to look like that.

Tifa is super skinny with breasts that are borderline too big and an insanely unatainable thigh gap. This impacts girls. This will impact your daughter when she sees it and is old enough to understand. Conversations like this only serve to make us concious of this fact so we can tell them that yes, it's okay to have smaller boobs. It's okay that your thighs touch.

Girls need to be told this.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think an equally important question is why do girls so easily get caught up in the "I must have this impossibly ideal body" mentality, and making themselves miserable when they inevitably fail? I think it would probably be easier to equip girls with greater mental resilience than it would be to stop society from idealizing certain body types, which has been going on for both men and women since before the beginning of written history.

I don't actually consume a lot of media, and what I do consume tends to represent the full gamut of human body types and ages. But to be honest, it sometimes sticks in my craw a bit when I go on tumblr and see the endless posts about the oppressive influence of impossible body ideals and how everybody is beautiful, closely followed by posts of extremely handsome shirtless men (e.g. Aidan Turner, which I naturally appreciate as much as anyone else) over which all these people who feel oppressed by body facism are drooling. It's all kind of hypocritical, condemning the media for making you feel "ugly" and then turning around and devouring idealized media portrayals of the gender(s) you find sexually attractive.

It's always been the case that some women will torture their bodies in order to attain an ideal, whether that be tiny feet or a ten inch waist or ginormous tits or a thigh gap. But the only way this will stop is if we stop doing it to ourselves.

 

[Jason Tandro]

@Tennyo: Your argument is that we don't have to deal with those oppressive artists promoting stuff that makes us uncomfortable. If you want to scrutinize how an artist depicts a woman, then you either have to apply that same scrutiny to every depiction in all of media or you are being selective about what body images are okay and what aren't. THAT is just as oppressive.

Ultimately it's your freedom of speech to critique this art yes, but I don't have to agree with your critiquing of it. I find it fear-mongering, particularly with your little "OMG BUT YOUR DAUGHTER" jab.

Also refer to Licorice's post because I feel she could have dropped the mic. You're saying we need to protect women from negative body images. Do you have so little faith in your sex's ability to think for themselves?

[edit: Regarding "girls need to be told this". Is there a shortage of that? I'm sorry but I can't go on Facebook without tripping over some "girls be whatever you want" infographic. I'm not arguing against that. It's a great thing. But what you are proposing we do is take a look at every single depiction of womanhood and say "yes", "no", "yes", "no". How about "you don't have to look like any of the girls in media" as opposed to wasting the time? My point is the only one's worth specifically targeting are those that are being touted as the ideal, i.e., fashion magazines. With real women. Who are real. But are being edited to be not real. ]

Edit:

Spoiler: One thing I think we can all agree is bullshit though...

 

[Fangu]

I can't believe Silje Mariela gets no love. Google her

 

[Jason Tandro]

I can't believe Silje Mariela gets no love. Google her

Okay, wow, no. Like that's Tifa, man.

Spoiler

 

[Cthulhu]

There was a couple video game characters shooped to be... erm... 'more voluptuous'. Thing is though, that's giving the wrong idea - you've got characters like Lara Croft (the recent incarnation is actually proportional), random Mortal Kombat character, and off course Tifa who are shooped to look chubby. But that's just not realistic; all of those characters are highly active, sporty characters; making them fat just says "Exercise won't make you slim".

I'm not against having more varied body types in video games, but it has to reflect the lifestyle of the characters. Tifa could do with some more muscles and shit, as mentioned before.

Re: males, GTA does this pretty well I think. The next GTA game, or even the next expansion, should have more female leads though (or any, for that matter). The NPC's in that / those games are pretty varied, too.

 

[Flare]

For me personally, growing up and even now I've always been slim, and don't have big boobs or hips. On one hand some people want to look more like me, but on the other hand I grew up with the idea that men might be more attracted to women with hips and boobs, unlike me, who has small things. I used to wish I'd grow into that body type more, but I didn't.
But I was never influenced by social media and whatnot online, I eventually came to a point where I like my body, and it's mine, and I'm not gonna change it. It is what it is.
I know though that some people can be easily influenced. Some girls want to get those big boobs at all costs, some girls want to get that thigh gap/tiny waist. It all comes down to the individual.

I do agree that athletic women in video games should be portrayed as athletic and with some muscles/a nicely built body. Making them heavier to try and fit the average American (?) body type serves no purpose to the character at all.
I'm not a fan, however, of seeing gigantic boobs with tiny waists and big hips and then thin legs. It always looks a bit over-the-top for me, like they were made that way just to be sexually attractive.