Tifa's design slammed by Eating Disorder Group

[Flare]

Also, Jason, I totally agree with that gender armor image. I want to see the women and men both armored realistically, or at least similar to one another if they're in the same country/class.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^And that is one of the reasons I love the original Skyrim armor...

 

[Jason Tandro]

^^And that is one of the reasons I love the original Skyrim armor...

Final Fantasy 14 isn't that bad either. I mean yes, the skimpy outfits are there certainly, but it's usually high level gear (or straight up a bikini for which male characters also have a variant). But they have this magical thing called "GLAMOUR". So if you want you can choose to be either modestly or immodestly dressed, but not suffer any stat loss for not wanting to be seen in the +100 Bustier of Groin-Tightening

 

[Ite]

Tifa's a kickboxer, she should absolutely have a six pack. Do you know how much core strength a roundhouse kick takes!?

Game developers should google image search "women kickboxers" as a reference tool when doing the remake redesign. But they probably won't.

 

[Fangu]

I can't believe Silje Mariela gets no love. Google her

Okay, wow, no. Like that's Tifa, man.

Spoiler

Your image doesn't load.

Also, never trusting anything you write about women, evar

 

[clowd]

I think its important to remember that the images we see in media, whether it be games or movies, do affect people.

When I saw Henry Cavill shirtless in Man of Steel I looked up all over the internet how I could obtain a body like him. It never went far but I was enticed by what I saw in media and wanted to imitate it.

At the same time, I can imagine a woman looking at Tifa's figure in that particular image and trying to imitate it. When researching exercises to get Cavill's body the most dangerous thing I ran across was some of the riskier back exercises. But how exactly does someone attempt to look like that Tifa? Theres no muscle to her figure so strength training isnt part of the equation. It looks like all you have to do is essentially starve yourself.

But instead of trying to censor artists and take away from their freedom, I feel its better and more important to educate people on an individual level. Its important to help them understand what exactly a healthy person is, as well as helping them boost their self esteem and become more comfortable in their own skin, as Flare said. I never took the training to look like Cavill very far because Im somewhat satisfied with how I look at the moment. Part of my ability to resist putting in all the crazy work required to look like Cavill was my current level of self esteem, which is pretty good. I realize my body could be improved greatly, and I should do more exercise, but at the same time Im not willing to suffer in order to get the media's 'ideal' body.

Some artists (directors, musicians, videogame designers, etc) do try and push agendas, some of them harmful. Again the best we can do is simply raise awareness about certain issues so people can see such things coming and successfully defend themselves from such ideas instead of getting blind sided and swallowed up by it.

Mass media (games, movies, TV shows, news etc) shapes our thinking more then we'd like to admit. Its all too easy to simply fall in line with the crowd. If something seems odd to you, dont just accept it because everyone else has. At the same time dont become an extremist in the opposite direction where you want people fired, or certain content censored or removed.

If a show or a game or a director or whoever has a history of pushing what you feel is harmful agendas, then simply blacklist media from that person and move on with your life. Even if you were able to take him down, theres 1000 more ready to take his place and 10000 more like him already out there. So thats why I feel its much important to work on how we react to seeing such things then going after those who put it out there.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I can't believe Silje Mariela gets no love. Google her

Okay, wow, no. Like that's Tifa, man.

Your image doesn't load.

Also, never trusting anything you write about women, evar

The image was an image of Siljie. I was agreeing with your interpretation.

I'll trust that your second comment was a joke about you thinking I disagreed with this.

 

[Fangu]

Okay, wow, no. Like that's Tifa, man.

Your image doesn't load.

Also, never trusting anything you write about women, evar

The image was an image of Siljie. I was agreeing with your interpretation.

Trust reinstated (+ 100)

Now I really want to see that picture!

 

[Starling]

The image was that one that was popular a few months ago about the girl who has skirt length markings on her leg and each is labeled some derogatory name for a girl. It goes like: Slut, tease, cheeky, proper, prude, boring, old-fashioned, etc.

The meathead thing is still around, but it's not as popular as getting up in arms about social issues related to women (because let's be real people there's a hell of a lot more of them).

As far as the emotional thing and crying be considered weak, etc, that's a very very old societal stigma, like most of these things. There's probably a long and fascinating discussion that could be had about the evolution of gender roles in a literal sense, but that's for another time.

Again, I know anecdotal evidence is a "no-no" in debate, but speaking personally here, I used to not really cry at much. I might get bummed out over something sad, but to actually full on cry it would take something extremely emotional (or the Ave Maria from Fantasia which for reasons I can't explain just ruins me). Now that I've had a kid that happens more often, for really weird things, but I'm guessing that's parental stuff.

But I don't like to be seen crying and generally speaking I try to repress any urge to cry, rare as it might be. Even my wife who is incredibly open-minded says that men crying, myself included, kind of weirds her out. I don't want you to think she's unsupportive, she just says it's kind of odd to her.

I've seen that image around a couple times and it's pretty much the kind of thing I meant regarding no-win situations, along with stereotype and gender roles. The thing is, the issues that negatively affect one gender generally affects everyone and ties into a whole bunch of others.

I think finding the sight of men crying to be weird and off-putting is the product of society conditioning people to view it that way. There's even a trope, though the examples seem to indicate progress is being made.

^^And that is one of the reasons I love the original Skyrim armor...

Final Fantasy 14 isn't that bad either. I mean yes, the skimpy outfits are there certainly, but it's usually high level gear (or straight up a bikini for which male characters also have a variant). But they have this magical thing called "GLAMOUR". So if you want you can choose to be either modestly or immodestly dressed, but not suffer any stat loss for not wanting to be seen in the +100 Bustier of Groin-Tightening

High lever gear being the revealing ones is one of the bigger issues. Most games that do that don't offer you the option to override the appearance of your equipment with something else and some that do give you limited options unless you pay for more.

Tifa's a kickboxer, she should absolutely have a six pack. Do you know how much core strength a roundhouse kick takes!?

Game developers should google image search "women kickboxers" as a reference tool when doing the remake redesign. But they probably won't.

Again, you can see the difference between Attack on Titan and your average manga in how much it shows that the author took inspiration from actual martial artists when drawing the characters, rather than aiming for sex appeal by flaunting scantily clad women with big bouncing boobs and that one pervert character that makes absolutely sure they get noticed.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Fangu: Here's the image

Like seriously. Replace the sweat pants with a miniskirt and that's her.

 

[Clement Rage]

Tifa's a kickboxer, she should absolutely have a six pack.

Are you sure? She uses throws and slams too.

Core strength =/= sixpacks. Your muscles can still be powerful without being visible. Not that she can't have one, but it's not necessarily so.

http://www.mensfitness.com/training/build-muscle/10-ways-build-strength-without-size

Note that MMA is specifically namedropped as not needing to be visibly super muscular.

Isn't this kinda the flipside of the same coin? 'As a martial artist, she should look like this'. I know a few martial artists, they don't all have the same body type. But if you watch them walk across a room, you know ' those people are really fit'

 

[Splintered]

Eh, I guess I don't mind enough. I don't think the issue is that there's a lot of skinny women in gaming, it's the lack of diversity. Likewise there's tons of male characters that are super fit, but you also get a lot more variety.

I don't think hyper unrealistic imagery is as damaging as monotony in designs because then you start to think ah real women/men=this. But this needs to happen through all mediums.

I find it fear-mongering, particularly with your little "OMG BUT YOUR DAUGHTER" jab.

Normally I would roll my eyes too, but it happens more than you think. Spoiler alert: Using your own stories for evidence is a terrible idea but I do it anyway:

Spoiler

I think I said that I'm playing FFIX with my eight year old niece, but this is the second attempt. My first attempt was a year ago, when playing FFIX the opening, she got really excited because "hey! Princess!" and I go "yeah, she's really nice, do you want a costume like that for her" (this was around otakon again and I was thinking of things she could dress up for).

She tells me she can't and when I ask she just looks at me and says, "I don't have... you know." Which confuses me greatly until she points to her chest, and I sort of panic because, you know, I'm not her parent and I'm totally ready to talk about the nature of death and violence as per themes and shit but what the hell, she's seven and I'm caught off guard.

But I did tell my brother to knock it off with the Smite, a game they love to play with each other. Although, tbh, I think stupid shit like Monster High and Ever After is a way worse than that.

Weirdly though, when we picked it up again, she doesn't have the same issues, and she's going as a white mage this year.

The issue is, all of Nomura's girls are pretty thin, that's the way he draws. You're going to have to change his entire art style to get it better. Some people have certain ticks they keep.

 

[Tennyo]

@ Jason:

I do not think you can hold a super deformed art style and a more realistic art style on the same level. However, if you really, truly want to discuss Adventure Time in regard to how they portray their female characters, then here we go:

A thread on Group Think about how Adventure Time has a varied female cast representing all shapes and sizes.

Here's a Tumblr blog about some of the side female characters talking about how awesome they are.

Worship the Fandom talks about how Lumpy Space Princess promotes positive body image.

Bitch Flicks. "And let me tell you, as a feminist, why I am absolutely celebrating this show."

You wanted to know why people aren't talking about how Adventure Time promotes negative body image? Because it doesn't.

Also, if you are really that worried about He-Man promoting negative body image issues amongst men, then why don't you speak up about it? Why does He-Man existing mean the women have to sit in a corner and shut up?

Women are not the reason He-Man exists. Women are not the reason why he was revived and why he still remains relevant to this day. There is no reason why his existence means we can't have discussions about body positivity. His existence does not mean we aren't allowed to point out unrealistic portrayals when we see them.

If you don't want to speak about about how He-Man effects men's body positivity that's your purgative. But it does not speak for the rest of us. Do not tell me that I'm not allowed to talk about this issue in regards to myself or women.

Here, if you like, are some body positivity blogs for men:

http://bodypositivityforthemodernman.tumblr.com/

http://bodypositivityforguys.tumblr.com/

Because this is an issue we should really all be united on. I don't know why there's so much push back to keep things segregated.

As for the comment about your daughter, I'm sorry it upset you, but it was never meant as a jab. It was meant as the honest truth. As someone who has a lot of experience as an overweight female child who was constantly bullied about it almost on the daily I can say that I WISH people were having these discussions when I was a child. When all the kids at school made it a point to let me know how fat and ugly I was, all the kids at church doing the same, and my brother doing nothing at home to telling me there was a reason why everyone disliked me with NO ADULT INTERVENTION TO EXPLAIN THIS WHOLE BEAUTY STANDARD THING TO ME combined with all the magazines and TV and games with scantly clad women essentially only reinforcing the fact that yeah, the other kids were all right, life can really suck.

I wish that people were having this conversation when I was a kid. I wish that I had someone to tell me that I shouldn't be ashamed. Because guess what? The idea that kids are supposed to magically know not to let the media influence them is kind of silly. Most kids won't know what they've never been taught.

I myself never once said we had to censor these things (read Neil Gaiman's blog on Freedom of Icky Speech). But that doesn't mean aren't allowed to talk about these issues and how they make us feel. If our kids sit and play a violent game we teach them that it's not real, don't emulate it in real life. I don't know why teaching them that same lesson in regards to the unrealistic way the characters look is so taboo.

 

[Channy]

I think an equally important question is why do girls so easily get caught up in the "I must have this impossibly ideal body" mentality, and making themselves miserable when they inevitably fail? I think it would probably be easier to equip girls with greater mental resilience than it would be to stop society from idealizing certain body types, which has been going on for both men and women since before the beginning of written history.

It's always been the case that some women will torture their bodies in order to attain an ideal, whether that be tiny feet or a ten inch waist or ginormous tits or a thigh gap. But the only way this will stop is if we stop doing it to ourselves.

Also refer to Licorice's post because I feel she could have dropped the mic. You're saying we need to protect women from negative body images. Do you have so little faith in your sex's ability to think for themselves?

Yes. The female gender is so fragile; if it's not the media telling us what to be and what not to be, it's the other girls who reinforce that with make up, obsessing over this look and that look and ultimately bullying... girls will tear each other down worse than any man or media ever will. They know what buttons exactly to push because while empathy comes easy, so does manipulation and cruelty.

[edit: Regarding "girls need to be told this". Is there a shortage of that? I'm sorry but I can't go on Facebook without tripping over some "girls be whatever you want" infographic. I'm not arguing against that. It's a great thing.

That's why I think the repeated messages going out there about "be whoever you want to be" and "you're beautiful as you are" are so important. So that women won't just stop listening to the media, but they'll also stop listening to all the peer pressure that surrounds them everyday.

Tifa's a kickboxer, she should absolutely have a six pack. Do you know how much core strength a roundhouse kick takes!?

And a size B chest, not a DD.

It's not her size and lithe body as a fighter that bugs me, it's the exorbitant amount of boobage going on there with the lithe body. THAT'S what's unrealistic. It's worse than Lara Croft (who later got toned down a bit).

But I did tell my brother to knock it off with the Smite, a game they love to play with each other. Although, tbh, I think stupid shit like Monster High and Ever After is a way worse than that.

Actually, Monster High and Ever After High are relatively tame compared to the Bratz that were floating around a decade ago. Urgh.

Edit: Tennyo won the internet

 

[Starling]

Somewhat relevant video about Smite (NSFW)

 

[Jason Tandro]

@Tennyo:

Hey fair enough and well argued. I actually didn't realize that show was heralded as a feminist icon of sorts.

And no I didn't take the "your daughter" thing as a personal attack, I know you better than that. I just don't respond to the "it could happen to you" line of logic. Taking Splintered's story into account I can see why you think it's an issue.

But bottom line is I don't think this is an issue. I am aware that you are not calling for censorship. But you do support another artist "fixing" this artists mistakes, which is in my mind tantamount to the same thing.

One could argue that it's just another artistic interpretation (hell if we were going to ban that, then so much awesome fan art would not exist), but I argue that the intention of this is not artistic but political. And frankly that bothers me worse than the possibility of somebody trying to shoot for Tifa as a body image.

We don't disagree that presenting positive body image is important. I just disagree that this art promotes a negative body image any more than stick figure drawings do.

I don't really know how we reconcile our differences on this one. You argued your point quite well but I just happen to disagree.

Edit: Also as others have pointed out, Tifa having that chunky body is equally as unrealistic given her lifestyle.

 

[Channy]

Edit: Also as others have pointed out, Tifa having that chunky body is equally as unrealistic given her lifestyle.

So's her chest. Jes sayin

 

[Jason Tandro]

Edit: Also as others have pointed out, Tifa having that chunky body is equally as unrealistic given her lifestyle.

So's her chest. Jes sayin

Hey even I pointed that out. I guess you could say Amano said "tata" to realism.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Most people are not physically beautiful. That's why I can't get behind the "you're beautiful as you are" campaign, because it's fundamentally a lie, and therefore it won't work.

It's more important to get people to realize that beauty does not equal happiness. You don't have to be beautiful to be attractive, appealing, sexy, desirable, loved and wanted, and to have a happy, successful life, which is what most people really want. Lots of beautiful people are lonely, miserable and exploited.

 

[Strangelove]

re: he-man or other such characters

i think there's a difference there in that their exaggerated appearance has some other aspect to it beyond just looks. muscles are a symbol of strength. giving he-man or batman or whoever lots of muscles shows that this character is strong. he-man or conan or whatever not wearing a shirt probably has more to do with showing off how tough they look rather than for the audience to perv on. muscles might be considered attractive and it might not be attainable on average, but it's also got a practical side. these are characters who go around beating people up, so they look like they can beat people up.

compare that with women, what ability is being shown by 'very skinny and has large breasts'? especially on characters who, like the male ones with massive muscles, are meant to be fighters. unless you go for the 'she distracts her opponents with her breasts!! (because she's not actually a good fighter)' thing which i've seen people use for characters like mai shiranui which is just a dumb idea. other than that, you have characters who look like they couldn't even open a jar and should have constant back pain that are meant to be skilled fighters. men get big muscles so they at least look like they can swing swords around and uppercut someone. women get tiny waists and a huge rack because let's be honest, whoever was designing them thought that looked hot and to hell with them looking like they actually have a muscle in their body.


i don't know if i had something else to put her i ran out of steam at this point

 

[Octo]

I think the expectation/standard for males and females is different. Females are "meant" to be cute and desireable, males are "meant" to be physically and emotionally strong - or rather not show emotion. This is why mental health issues and suicide rates for young men are so high - women suffer too, but we're more likely to ask for help.

 

[Flare]

Most people are not physically beautiful. That's why I can't get behind the "you're beautiful as you are" campaign, because it's fundamentally a lie, and therefore it won't work.

It's more important to get people to realize that beauty does not equal happiness. You don't have to be beautiful to be attractive, appealing, sexy, desirable, loved and wanted, and to have a happy, successful life, which is what most people really want. Lots of beautiful people are lonely, miserable and exploited.

I think the 'most people are not physically beautiful' is more of an individual opinion than as a whole. Sure, there's people who you think are beautiful, or average, or even ugly, but to me there's more people that have a physical beauty about them than not.
Sorry, I'm just more optimistic and like to say nice things...

But! I do agree about what's more important, and it doesn't matter how good or bad you look physically, what really matters is what you are on the inside. Some people who don't look attractive can be some of the best people you ever meet, whereas some people who look very beautiful/handsome could be scumbags.
But to me, when someone is genuinely nice and treats people good, I think they have a beauty about their looks, too. Like, the goodness inside them radiates out and alters the way you look at them.

I think I went off-topic with this. Argh, sorry.

 

[Flare]

And for the record, I like seeing guys show emotion instead of feeling like they can't so they can be 'manly' or whatever. If something makes you really sad to where you want to cry, I think it's more manly to cry than to not.
Manly tears can be hot, just sayin'. As long as it's not an eternal waterfall.

 

[Octo]

And for the record, I like seeing guys show emotion instead of feeling like they can't so they can be 'manly' or whatever. If something makes you really sad to where you want to cry, I think it's more manly to cry than to not.
Manly tears can be hot, just sayin'. As long as it's not an eternal waterfall.

True, and furthermore, most men I speak to don't think that the Hollywood/Fashion ideal of beauty is the be all and end all.

Thats what is so fucking vexing, that most people will believe this media bullshit over the opinions of family, friends and lovers. It's like we're all conditioned to impress non existent strangers.

 

[Mayo Master]

Regarding Tifa's design: I believe that it is actually possible for a woman to have an athletic body, slender limbs and a generous chest (safe for work real life example). Uncommon: yes, unrealistic: no.

Now, regarding body image problems: I think the issue is overall related to the notion of being content with what you have and who you are. The problem is: one of the main drivers of our consumer society relies on making people feel in need of something, or making them feel they lack something. It is thriving on the idea that grass is greener on the other side. One example: an ideal image promoted to white people in Europe and North America is about having a "healthy tan" (which many will try to get in a tanning salon, which is actually very unhealthy). On the other hand, the corresponding ideal image promoted in Latin America (where people have a natural healthy tan) is to get white skin (through the application of various cosmetics).
Fashions also acts as similar drivers, ans since they change every 6 months they push consumers to constantly renew their wardrobe/cosmetic kits/tech gadgets/whatever.

I'm not sure that the notion of being content can be brought through external messages (like in the media), because I think it has to come from within. I guess that before spending time /money on something, one should wonder: am I doing this because I like it, or because it's popular? One problem however: some cultures have us think that we should like something because it's popular (coming from Europe, I've been shocked about how often people base their choice on popularity in North America, as if they were not able to make a choice based on their own tastes).

/My 2 cents