Tifa's design slammed by Eating Disorder Group

[Channy]

Most people are not physically beautiful. That's why I can't get behind the "you're beautiful as you are" campaign, because it's fundamentally a lie, and therefore it won't work.

I dunno. Call me optimistic but I think it does more for a person to try and enstate that everyone has their own kind of beauty that's different and may not be conventional but still acceptable and that they shouldn't listen to media.

Growing up, if I had been told "You're boring and homely and there's nothing physically appealing about you but don't worry, someone might love you anyway one day." I probably would have thrown myself off a bridge.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Most people are not physically beautiful. That's why I can't get behind the "you're beautiful as you are" campaign, because it's fundamentally a lie, and therefore it won't work.

I dunno. Call me optimistic but I think it does more for a person to try and enstate that everyone has their own kind of beauty that's different and may not be conventional but still acceptable and that they shouldn't listen to media.

Growing up, if I had been told "You're boring and homely and there's nothing physically appealing about you but don't worry, someone might love you anyway one day." I probably would have thrown myself off a bridge.

Beauty is not just a physical thing though. As lame and cliche as it might sound, inner beauty is more important than external beauty. I saw a really good argument that said that telling people that they are all PHYSICALLY beautiful was potentially damaging because it taught them that the only way they can have value is if they are physically attractive.

I'm not much to look at, but I have other good qualities. We should be saying "we're all beautiful in our own way", versus "we're all physically beautiful." Of course, I support the unspoken social decency clause where we don't go around telling sad little girls "yeah, you're ugly, but you're nice inside" because that's just as mean.

 

[robotwarui]

art is expression of the artist, true; that outlet of expression is sacred

my sis studied Fashion Design in the School of Arts,
and we discussed the girls body image issue

she didn't directly address that problem, but said, "beauty is not to be scorned"

that is true too

but

Spoiler

I studied Film in the School of Communications,
and what I learned about art is that you are communicating to an audience. In fact, you probably have a target audience. This is where responsibility comes in. This art is more than just you now; it is a continuing dialogue with others. The artist recognizes this dynamic.

If you intend to express yourself to a wider audience than just your one lonesome self (which is okay too, a means and end unto itself), you must be thinking about what you want people to see, to get out of it.
If an artist cares so much for their masterpiece, he must have intentions for it, right?

Does he want it to be thought-provoking?
Does he want to share his vision with the community?
Of what value to his continuing work is the benefit of their money/patronage?

The artist makes these decisions, and owns them. He takes responsibility for this.

With that, this is my understanding of censorship:

Spoiler

censorship is an unfortunate
symptom/indication of art/expression
that wasn't considered/valued enough by the artist/producer
to know/find the intended/ideal audience OR consider the audience they do have

and art:

Spoiler

So a fashion designer creates something beautiful from the depths of her creativity.
(Maybe she wants to express the unique way she thinks about shapes and colors?)
(Maybe she envisions a world filled with beautiful things?)
Then she gives it to the runway show where it appears/hangs on a model the same way it will appear on a hanger.
This is still art.
But I would argue that this art exists in a hyper-reality, like a cartoon; it supposes a slight AU, and we <i>can</i> enjoy and engage in that, if we're aware of that.
Then that runway show gets broadcast all over, models are sporting fashion in magazines, and we get the message that THIS is beauty in THIS world, this is your standard. This is not art, but your reality; now get with the program or start hating yourself or both. We need your money to perpetuate this cycle.
Who dropped the ball?
When did the expression/message change?
Who should claim ownership/responsibity for the fashion INDUSTRY message? The artists or the industry?

When you think or speak about this topic, please

Spoiler

Don't mistake art INDUSTRIES with art IN ITS PURE FORM.
Don't separate art with the community that interacts with it;
art is also the dynamic it creates/intends.

btw, you get it that I wasn't just talking about the fashion industry only, right?


Forgetting all that, I want Tifa to be...

Spoiler

I want a more realistic-sized Tifa
because HD = more realistic, and
more realistic = more connection with the character
But I also want her to keep her triple-D's
because art & aesthetics; they are pleasant

 

[Ite]

Well considering she began her training before she fully developed, her breasts may present an obstacle to her (as they do with dancers) which explains the orthopedic underwear. In this, Tifa is a figure to relate to when it comes to athletes who have body issues around their breasts. Which is not a group typically represented in media.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Most people are not physically beautiful. That's why I can't get behind the "you're beautiful as you are" campaign, because it's fundamentally a lie, and therefore it won't work.

I dunno. Call me optimistic but I think it does more for a person to try and enstate that everyone has their own kind of beauty that's different and may not be conventional but still acceptable and that they shouldn't listen to media.

Growing up, if I had been told "You're boring and homely and there's nothing physically appealing about you but don't worry, someone might love you anyway one day." I probably would have thrown myself off a bridge.

You're missing my point. There seems to be an implication in your words that if someone is not beautiful then they must be "boring and homely".

It all comes down to what one means by beauty. In my lexicon, beautiful people are the ones who have such intense physical presence, usually through the harmony of their features and complexion, that people literally stop and stare. Sometimes they're so beautiful that it can be difficult to see past their looks. I have known a few people like this.

If everyone is beautiful, then what does beauty mean? It doesn't mean anything more than "I'm alive, I'm a human being." If it's a quality everyone possesses, then why does it have value? But if it doesn't mean anything, if it has no value, then why would anyone want it?

Of course inner beauty is what is most important. People may be attracted to outward appearance but it's inner beauty they fall in love with. But not everyone has inner beauty, either.

I don't equate beauty with prettiness, sexiness, desirableness, attractiveness, lovableness, or any of those other qualities. Some of the world's most famous "beauties" were not actually beautiful at all. Cleopatra, for example, was said to be quite plain - until she opened her mouth and dazzled with her intelligence and wit.

Nobody ever told me I was beautiful growing up. The most my mother would say is "you have an interesting face." She didn't believe in teaching her daughters that beauty mattered. She thought it was much better to aspire to be interesting.

 

[Starling]

I define beauty as a characteristic that makes someone or something admirable, whether it's a physical trait or not. I've treated the word beautiful as synonymous to charismatic, inspiring, eloquent and a few other things that have nothing to do with whether or not I find someone's physical appearance aesthetically pleasing.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So it's a word that means whatever anyone wants it to mean?

I don't think the people complaining about the "unreal standards of beauty" are referring to society's expectations of their souls. When someone sighs, "I wish I were beautiful," they normally mean they wish they were highly aesthetically pleasing and/or physically attractive - so to reply "You're beautiful in your own way" is rather like comforting someone who longs to be good at maths by reminding them that they're a brilliant soccer player. Being a brilliant soccer player isn't going to get them into med school. That analogy made more sense in my head.

I'm not going to tell someone they're beautiful when they're not. What I will do is tell them they are clever, funny, charming, witty, graceful, elegant - whatever qualities they have that make them loveable.

 

[Starling]

Beauty is subjective. What one person considers beauty, someone else may not. It's something to keep in mind when speaking or listening to others. Besides, I was simply sharing my way of interpreting beauty, which I'm aware isn't necessarily how others view it. The issue here seems to be confusing which interpretation is meant by what's being said. What you're saying sounds a bit like policing people's vocabulary for the sake of clarity, which is nigh impossible in spoken language.

 

[clowd]

Well my 2 cents are that physical beauty is like art, nobody really looks at the same painting the same way. Some people may be universally considered good looking, but many others might find seemingly less attractive people better looking then whats commonly accepted as ideal.

What girls/women have to understand is they dont have to look like or have a body like Tifa for guys to find them attractive. And because you dont have a body or appearance like Tifa's does not mean you lack any physical beauty.

And I know it sounds cliched but its true, a person's character adds much more to who they are then simply how they look physically. For me an 'average' looking girl with a great personality beats a 'great' looking girl with an average personality 10 times out of 10. Im sure its the same with most people.

Pressure to maintain a healthy body isnt bad in itself. But theres alot more pressure on women to be thin/normal sized in society then there is on men. Because the pressure is more intense and unfair this makes it easier for women to fall prey to becoming obsessed with their figure. But I dont think its right to say any and all pressure to maintain a healthy weight is wrong, and that videogames should feature more out of shape characters to make people feel better about their current unhealthy physical condition.

 

[Starling]

Spoiler: Relevant example of a double-standard regarding how the media treats the consumer's self-esteem.

 

[Channy]

You're missing my point. There seems to be an implication in your words that if someone is not beautiful then they must be "boring and homely".

Maybe I did... probably. But that's how I interpreted it. So, sorry if I missed your point.

It all comes down to what one means by beauty. In my lexicon, beautiful people are the ones who have such intense physical presence, usually through the harmony of their features and complexion, that people literally stop and stare. Sometimes they're so beautiful that it can be difficult to see past their looks. I have known a few people like this.

If everyone is beautiful, then what does beauty mean? It doesn't mean anything more than "I'm alive, I'm a human being." If it's a quality everyone possesses, then why does it have value? But if it doesn't mean anything, if it has no value, then why would anyone want it?

See, call me shallow, but I equate beauty to a physical characteristic of the body... features, body shape, how one dresses, are all examples of beauty (and handsomeness to a lesser extent). I never really got the whole "beautiful on the inside" shtick, and I'm nothing to look at either.

And what you described up above, I would probably equate that more to charisma... someone who has so much presence, regardless of looks, that they just draw a crowd.

 

[Flare]

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. Reading the different opinions on this thread really shows how true that is, too.

I think generally, when people say someone's beautiful, they mean the person's appearance. But I've heard people refer to someone's personality/soul/whatever you want to call it as beautiful too. I think beauty is a word that can have more depth or less depth depending on the person.
Some equate beauty to be focused on physical appearance, whereas others equate beauty to being appearance, personality, and how kind/generous someone is.

I equate it to appearance first, because of course that's what you usually experience first, is how someone looks. But a physically beautiful person becomes more beautiful by the kindness they have inside them, and the way they cheer people up simply by being themselves. Likewise, someone not as physically beautiful, who would be just 'average', becomes more beautiful when they have the same personality.

I think I mean for this to sound deep and meaningful, but maybe it just sounds like my opinion. Anyway, yeah. Beauty is a little different in everyone's eyes.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Opinions can be deep and meaningful! Particularly on a topic like beauty, which is all about opinion.

 

[e.suna]

I grew up with this game (like many people on this forum), and I looked up to Tifa as my favorite female character. I did not get messed up or develop insecurities about my body because of her cartoonish proportions.

Fandom did way more to sexualize and flatten her than the game ever did. My big take-away about Tifa Lockheart was that she is a beautiful, strong yet flawed person who I could look up to. She endured trauma and loss (I lost my dad a year after the game came out) and went on to fight for meaning/purpose/a family for herself. She is not just an ass-kicker but she is sensitive and caring, and yet not without her own flaws and insecurities. I admired her and wanted to be strong like her. The in-game dialogue and storytelling never drew attention to or made a big deal about her "assets," thankfully, because that's not a substitute for characterization. She resonated with me for all the other above-stated reasons.

So in one sense I kind of don't like when people take an isolated image and get all worked up about it. It's kind of like looking at Barret and dismissing him as a Mr. T stereotype when he is so much more.

Not defending her design, because I agree with others that it should be more realistic. I just never let it make me feel insecure about myself.

 

[ForceStealer]

I grew up with this game (like many people on this forum), and I looked up to Tifa as my favorite female character. I did not get messed up or develop insecurities about my body because of her cartoonish proportions.

Fandom did way more to sexualize and flatten her than the game ever did. My big take-away about Tifa Lockheart was that she is a beautiful, strong yet flawed person who I could look up to. She endured trauma and loss (I lost my dad a year after the game came out) and went on to fight for meaning/purpose/a family for herself. She is not just an ass-kicker but she is sensitive and caring, and yet not without her own flaws and insecurities. I admired her and wanted to be strong like her. The in-game dialogue and storytelling never drew attention to or made a big deal about her "assets," thankfully, because that's not a substitute for characterization. She resonated with me for all the other above-stated reasons.

So in one sense I kind of don't like when people take an isolated image and get all worked up about it. It's kind of like looking at Barret and dismissing him as a Mr. T stereotype when he is so much more.

Not defending her design, because I agree with others that it should be more realistic. I just never let it make me feel insecure about myself.

Wholehearted agreement. I guess this is why I get defensive about her. Because I love her as a character and it has nothing to do with her sexuality, perceived or otherwise.

 

[Alex Strife]

The key point is that just because someone has an amazing body or attractive assets, it doesn't mean that's their defining trait.

 

[Starling]

I've dug up some more relevant videos.

About sexualization in gaming

About the double standard in the way sexual content and violence are treated in games

About people complaining regarding Samus's smash 4 design

 

[Cthulhu]

TL;DR of that second video: 'Murcans are violent prudes,

 

[Jason Tandro]

TL;DR of that second video: 'Murcans are violent prudes,

'Muricans are scared of offending anybody. Look at any of the great cases of game censorship throughout history especially in the NES era.

Interesting side note: You all know about how they ramped up Lightning's bust size in the american games right? From A to B in FF13/ 13-2 and from B to C in Lightning Returns. Not that "upgrading" her cup size is any more over-sexualization than the rest of Lightning Returns (this coming from a guy who loves this game and not for the over-sexualization (well not just)), but it's interesting how female body image being changed from the source material is okay if it's her T&A.

Not a change of heart on the original issue, but I hate hypocrisy of any kind.


Edit: In fact, the more I think about it the more I wonder if my staunch refusal of the original image isn't rooted in some of that. I still think politicization of appearance is silly, and I still think we're maybe focusing on the wrong issues, but I also can't really say that I am whole-heartedly defending the artistry if I know in my heart of hearts that if Tifa got a boob job or got "sexier" attributes I would not be as upset, if upset at all.

Something to think about. I know I can seem stubborn but the fact is my first love is logic and this one has been mulling around in my brain for a bit.

 

[Starling]

I'm not sure americans are afraid of offending anyone, considering how much they celebrate guns and such when the stereotypes are convenient, which is generally in relation to patriotism.

There's also the rather vocal biggots who most definitely don't care about offending anyone and a bunch other extremists who don't care about that either. Of course, that's not limited to the US.

I wish media wasn't so saturated with sexual content of various kinds. It's treated as if it's necessary to sell stuff, which I don't think it is. I find the implications of increasing a female character's bust size from the original version to be somewhat objectifying.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I wish media wasn't so saturated with sexual content of various kinds. It's treated as if it's necessary to sell stuff, which I don't think it is. I find the implications of increasing a female character's bust size from the original version to be somewhat objectifying.

True, but as I say, no more than the original. Need I remind you that this outfit was in both versions?

Spoiler

A simple bust increase is tantamount to a hair color change to americanize it once you consider that as much as I enjoyed the game, it was essentially one incredibly awesome battle system removed from an ero dress up game.

 

[Starling]

I didn't pay much attention to the game so I'm not familiar with most of the outfits. I just know that it involves way too much dress-up for my tastes. XIII's plot lost me about halfway through XIII-2, though I found some of the concepts interesting.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I didn't pay much attention to the game so I'm not familiar with most of the outfits. I just know that it involves way too much dress-up for my tastes. XIII's plot lost me about halfway through XIII-2, though I found some of the concepts interesting.

XIII-2 is the most polished of the three games, and the time travel concept makes up for XIII's linearity. The monster raising was also a unique idea.

Lightning Returns has four key strengths that I really really like about it:

Spoiler: Long off-topic rant

1) The Combat System is exemplary. It really is a tight action rpg system that forces you not only to strategize but also emphasizes execution as well. IF you just button mash you will not be as effective.

2) The time mechanic, while very much maligned, I thought was a nice hook to add a sense of urgency to your missions. If it is troublesome there are copouts such as teleportation and chronostasis (which can be easily spammed if you're a regular fighter) to help reduce its effects.

3) The world: More important than just the gameplay though it gave these lands a sense of reality, and I have to say you could do worse than some of the beautiful vistas this game provides at both day and night. There's even a good balance. Some places are actually more dangerous during the day then at night (Dead Dunes and arguably Yusnaan, though that's really more of the town being somewhat bare during the day).

4) New Game Plus - I'm a sucker for this feature and it's pretty much required to see everything it has to offer. Some options aren't even unlocked until you beat the game once.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I wish media wasn't so saturated with sexual content of various kinds. It's treated as if it's necessary to sell stuff, which I don't think it is.

Ehh... yes and no. Is sex needed to sell something? No it's not, but leaving it out puts more of a burden on whoever is advertizing for something to come up with something else that grabs the public's attention (and makes them remember what is being advertized) in as short an amount of time as sex appeal does. Logic can't really do that because it needs time which is one thing advertisers don't have.

The flip side of this is that one you're aware of the above fact, advertizing really does need something else other then sex to appeal to you. If sex is all it has going for it, it will never win out against logic, or better yet, logic and sex.

And you can fit in power or wealth in the same place as sex appeal.

The things I learn in graphic design...

 

[Starling]

Sex appeal won't really grab the attention of people who either don't care about the sex or aren't attracted to the gender used for that purpose in the ad. Making it clear that you're targeting a specific combination of gender and orientation can feel alienating to those who are interested in the kind of product advertised. The reliance on sex appeal to sell things also seems somewhat shallow.