Translation of the original japanese game project aka How to wind up flunkies

Pixel · May 25, 2009

Yeah that changes everything. :lol:

I wouldnt personally call them that, but it fits clouds pov. If it was Aeris who said the line it would seem wrong.

Channy · May 25, 2009

Pixel said:
uh wtf. Seriously guys, calm the fuck down. You make this place look like an asshole paradise imo.

I was calm the whole time tbh, but I wanted to have a supah srs moment for once.

Mako Eyes said:
That's the definition and it fits what the Sephiroth Copies are. Christ, how can you seriously argue that they ARE NOT flunkies? It makes no damn sense.

If we can find an answer to this, perhaps we'll have answered the last 5 pages. :monster:

The Notorious M.O.G. said:
All of this hubaloo over the word 'flunkies'. What have we come to?

With a one sided LTD we need SOMETHING to debate.

I Am Not Me said:
Where are these Japanese speaking peoples I hear? I also speak Japanese, but I can't read the stupid language. I guess I can add to the Japanese speaking peoples here in the forum? At least we know we exist here.

The qhimms are a lie. :wacky:

And your retranslated Barret is weird, IMO. I don't like him. He isn't my Barret

Barret's dead now. He's been replaced with a heavily tanned Englishmen with good grammar.

hitoshura said:
"death like a star".

wtf is this shit?

NoenGaruth said:
Because if people on Qhimm said so it must be fact

Didn't you know? :awesome:

hitoshura said:
I don't think it is a complete waste of time, because there are misleading errors in FFVII's English script. But I think throwing the whole English script out is creating more work than is needed.

This, pretty much. Retranslating everything is imo a bad idea and waste of time, and something I've been saying since my first post. :monster:

Mako Eyes said:
Wow. Apparently people didn't even know.

It was Cloud. In the Temple of the Ancients.

Not to sound like an arrogant ignorant TLSer, but I've been aware of who said it since the beginning. :monster:

DLPB · May 25, 2009

Puppets is a better word to use. That implies none willing people who do sephiroths bidding.

Infact, cloud is described as puppet at 1 point by jenova,

I think that line probably should read puppet. However, the original japanese word is copy. So in either case I will be talking it over and then decide on what fits best.

Puppet does sound much better though.

Pixel said:
But they're not willing participants, are they? They're controlled by jenova's will. I dont know what the word would be, but its not flunkies imo.

I mean, you could call loz and yazoo flunkies, but would you call the children flunkies when they're under jenova's control? Never mind the dictionary definition of the word

That is precisely my point and has been since the start. Thw word flunky could mean in any given context, someone who is a lackey and has control. A person who does someones bidding through fear or gain in wealth.
This does not apply to the black cloaks. They have been genetically engineered. They are controlled by sephiroth through jenova. Therefore they are puppets, not flunkies. Not just that, flunkies is a poor word. It doesnt do the context or the character justice. It makes sephieoth sound like he has hired goons. He doesn't. That is that settled.

Onto MR. T barret....

It doesnt matter if you liked him as mr t, it doesnt matter if you think the translators should be able to turn him into mr t, and it doesnt matter if your opinion is we shouldnt change the wrongly translated character...

the fact is, the translation team have turned barret into a sterotypical black man and it is NOT what was intended. One can get boisterous and physical personality without turning him into a YO BRO HOWZ IT HANGIN.

I am shocked that the orginal writers allow a translation team so much freedom to butcher a character. In fact, ff7 was slated for the barret stereotype (ign i think...read it on wiki, with source)

Munatik · May 25, 2009

Concerning Barret = Mr. T, What if Cloud was black? Would like to have a word with you starting at around page 3.

Channy · May 25, 2009

DLPB said:
Puppets is a better word to use. That implies none willing people who do sephiroths bidding.

Infact, cloud is described as puppet at 1 point by jenova,

I think that line probably should read puppet. However, the original japanese word is copy. So in either case I will be talking it over and then decide on what fits best.

Puppet does sound much better though.

That is precisely my point and has been since the start. Thw word flunky could mean in any given context, someone who is a lackey and has control. A person who does someones bidding through fear or gain in wealth.
This does not apply to the black cloaks. They have been genetically engineered. They are controlled by sephiroth through jenova. Therefore they are puppets, not flunkies. Not just that, flunkies is a poor word. It doesnt do the context or the character justice. It makes sephieoth sound like he has hired goons. He doesn't. That is that settled.

There is one major plot difference though that you seem to grasp but completely ignore. Cloud is fairly control of what he's doing throughout most of Disk one, despite being under Jenova's control. The only time he isn't is when he's freaking out, grabbing his head and running around like a maniac.

The difference between that and the cloaked men, is that the cloaked men are loyal from the beginning. The moment you meet one, anyone, he's all about Sephiroth. Finding the Black Materia, meeting for reunion.. To say that they're puppet's is fairly correct, but the point of Jenova calling Cloud a puppet, was because he doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't know he's infested with Jenova and doing Sephiroth's bidding. The black cloaked guys do, ergo... flunkies. Now it's settled.

Onto MR. T barret....

It doesnt matter if you liked him as mr t, it doesnt matter if you think the translators should be able to turn him into mr t, and it doesnt matter if your opinion is we shouldnt change the wrongly translated character...

Oh, there you go again telling us our opinions don't matter after asking for them. Seriously, if you feel that way why are you here asking for our opinions?

the fact is, the translation team have turned barret into a sterotypical black man and it is NOT what was intended. One can get boisterous and physical personality without turning him into a YO BRO HOWZ IT HANGIN.

Not if you take away his personality, slang and pretty much robotize him during his sentences. "You can't get off of a moving train" <-- THERE IS NO GOD

I am shocked that the orginal writers allow a translation team so much freedom to butcher a character. In fact, ff7 was slated for the barret stereotype (ign i think...read it on wiki, with source)

I'm shocked that you're willingly butchering a character that's been known to be a gem of FFVII just because you're opinion is that he's a stereotypical black man. If he were, you'd think he'd be surrounded by half naked women, slapping dem hoes up and asking where his money is.

I think you're just racist. :monster:

I Am Not Me · May 25, 2009

What was the Japanese word for this 'flunkies' anyway?If it's going to be translated, it has to be from the original word right?

And Channy has a point. A lot of them, actually. :monster:

Eerie · May 25, 2009

To add what Channy said about "flunkies", please explain how Cloud would know they're puppets. 'Cause he doesn't, and that's the whole point of using such word. To him, they're just mere followers, Sephiroth's flunkies... oh wait.

Channy · May 25, 2009

Mei: the original word is copy/doubles, but they don't exactly fall in that category, nor does Cloud know at this point what they are. To him, they're just a group of FOLLOWERS of Sephiroth.

May as well call it a cult ffs. :monster:

Tetsujin · May 25, 2009

Babelfish tells me it means offspring. D=

Alessa Gillespie · May 25, 2009

Clearly, Sephiroth had lots of unprotected sex and got his girlfriends pregnant. :awesome:

Strangelove · May 25, 2009

Go go dictionary :monster:

１ 一つの本体が二つ以上に分かれること。また、その分かれて生じた身。
One body or thing dividing into two or more. Also, the body created from that dividing.

２ 仏・菩薩(ぼさ&#12388

が人々を救うために、仮の姿でこの世に現れること。また、その姿。観音の三十三身など。化身。
(Buddhism) The bodhisattva appearing in this world in a temporary form to save people. Also, that form. The thirty-three bodies of Guan Yin, etc. Incarnation.

「息子に自分の―を見出す」
"to find one's [double] in one's son"

主人公は作者の―だ
"The main character is the author's [double]"

彼はその少年に自分の分身を見出した
He found his 「alter ego [other self] in the boy.

ぶんしん　分身
the other self.

* 分身
* alter ego

* 分身（自分の）
* another human being

* 分身のような人
* shadow

* 影の分身
* behind-the-scenes alter ego

* 本人の分身
* doppelganger〈ドイツ語〉

'Puppet' would be misleading for the same reason using 'copy' would be. It's already a term in the game, but isn't being used in this scene. Words like that might make sense if you're looking at it from an outside perspective with all the facts, but you should take into account what the characters know and what they would say rather than just what's factually correct.

Ryushikaze · May 25, 2009

DLPB, you are technically correct, they are puppets, but A: in the context of how they are puppets, they act like flunkies and B: The person speaking is not at this stage aware that they are puppets. Characters say incorrect things all the time out of ignorance.

"It's impossible. It'd take a thousand ships with more firepower than the entire fleet"- Han, on how Alderaan couldn't have been destroyed.

"You killed my father." -Luke, moment before he learns this is wrong.

Now, then, Diane Lulubelle Patricia Beatrix, these other five forums where flunkies has never been heard of, and the folks who insist that despite all context, flunkies is not an accurate descriptor of the black cloaks.

DLPB · May 25, 2009

a puppet is someone who does what another wants, one who is easily led astray and controlled.e In the context of the game, it means one who has no real control because they are being used by the puppet master sephiroth THROUGH jenovas cells. Sephiroth is quite literally the puppet master) In Just because cloud is called a puppet (which he is in part) doesnt place some kind of lock on that word being used beforehand.

A copy is incorrect as it means literally a copy. What it is referring to is the men in black cloaks,

If cloud isnt supposed to know about that yet HOW DOES HE KNOW TO SAY IT IN THE ORIGINAL JAPANESE GAME?

THAT is the issue here because he was referring TO them about their genetic make up.

In any case, flunkies isnt debatable. If the japanese game makes comment to the genetic make up or the fact that the black cloaks have jenovas cells, then that would be why cloud is able to bring this up where the english version falls flat.

All cloud knows about them in the english version is that they are a crazy cult. And they certainly arent a hired bunch of lackeys

Alessa Gillespie · May 25, 2009

DLPB said:
In any case, flunkies isnt debatable.

To you, of course it isn't. You've already decided it was the wrong word and won't listen to anyone tell you otherwise. As far as I can tell, the only reason you're sticking around is to bum off possible translations that don't sync up so well with Cathy's.

Ryushikaze · May 26, 2009

DLPB said:
a puppet is someone who does what another wants, one who is easily led astray and controlled.e In the context of the game, it means one who has no real control because they are being used by the puppet master sephiroth THROUGH jenovas cells. Sephiroth is quite literally the puppet master) In Just because cloud is called a puppet (which he is in part) doesnt place some kind of lock on that word being used beforehand.

A copy is incorrect as it means literally a copy. What it is referring to is the men in black cloaks,

Even though they are Sephiroth Copies.

If cloud isnt supposed to know about that yet HOW DOES HE KNOW TO SAY IT IN THE ORIGINAL JAPANESE GAME?

He DOESN'T say that they are controlled puppets.

THAT is the issue here because he was referring TO them about their genetic make up.

Wait, WHAT? Genetic make up? I think, good, sir, you are highly confused or quite possibly talking out of your ass.

In any case, flunkies isnt debatable. If the japanese game makes comment to the genetic make up or the fact that the black cloaks have jenovas cells, then that would be why cloud is able to bring this up where the english version falls flat.

...IF the Japanese game makes comment...
Wait, are you telling me that you're making an argument here despite not having even read the script?
And yet you're SURE that it's speaking of Genetic Makeup and that Flunkies can't possibly be an accurate way to refer to the black cloaks?

All cloud knows about them in the english version is that they are a crazy cult. And they certainly arent a hired bunch of lackeys

And? Flunkies need not be hired. Lower ranking cultists are flunkies too.

Y'know what's hilarious? The obscure, unknown, and unused is in the default spellcheck/ autocomplete functions of my browser, Ipod touch, phone, etc.

BY THE BY WHERE ARE THESE OTHER FIVE SITES THAT YOU WERE CITING FOR FLUNKY BEING UNHEARD OF, AND WHO ARE THESE OTHER JAPANESE SPEAKERS YOU SPEAK OF. I AM OFFICIALLY SICK OF ASKING YOU FOR THESE THINGS.

Strangelove · May 26, 2009

How about just changing it to something simple like 'men' and forgetting that this single word has taken up like 10 pages?

Sometimes translation involves scarificing some aspects. Maybe this is one of those times.

Makoeyes987 · May 26, 2009

LOL and this is hitoshura not giving a fuck anymore :monster:

Pixel · May 26, 2009

I wonder if Square went through this when writing the dialogue :lol:

Channy · May 26, 2009

DLPB said:
a puppet is someone who does what another wants, one who is easily led astray and controlled.e In the context of the game, it means one who has no real control because they are being used by the puppet master sephiroth THROUGH jenovas cells. Sephiroth is quite literally the puppet master) In Just because cloud is called a puppet (which he is in part) doesnt place some kind of lock on that word being used beforehand.

Cloud and the black cloaked people are very different. These people are CLEARLY willing to do what Sephiroth wants, or do we need to quote lines for you again of their undying love for Sephiroth. :monster:

Cloud was a different case. He practically has a multiple personality disorder by feeding off of Zack's memories, which mixed with the Mako and the Jenova cells. Cloud isn't willing because you see him several times throughout the game having a freakout. Yet, his body is FORCED to do things (give Black Materia to Sephiroth) while his mind is yelling at him to stop. THAT is a puppet.

A copy is incorrect as it means literally a copy. What it is referring to is the men in black cloaks,

Yes, this is something we tried to point out for 3 pages. Glad you agree. :monster:

If cloud isnt supposed to know about that yet HOW DOES HE KNOW TO SAY IT IN THE ORIGINAL JAPANESE GAME?

Because the context of the Japanese version and the context of the English version are different. You can't translate a word for literization if it doesn't match for the current situation. You have to look for other words to match the context of what's being said. The Japanese probably don't have a word close enough to flunky, so they used copy.

In any case, flunkies isnt debatable. If the japanese game makes comment to the genetic make up or the fact that the black cloaks have jenovas cells, then that would be why cloud is able to bring this up where the english version falls flat.

But in the English game it isn't brought up what they are with Jenova cells until disk two, so we don't know that they're Sephiroth clones, nor does Cloud. And again, I bring up my point that the Japanese probably don't have a word close enough to flunkies to use.

But hitobito can correct me on that, I'm not sure.

All cloud knows about them in the english version is that they are a crazy cult. And they certainly arent a hired bunch of lackeys

Yes, a crazy cult. Like flunkies. :monster:

DLPB · May 26, 2009

mcchanny, a cult is not flunky

A mindless obeyer isnt a flunky

A gentically modified person following a mad man around is not a flunky.

The japanese version uses copy. This is nowhere near the word flunky or anything near a "lackey" no matter how much you want it to be.

This debate is closed. We have said all we want on it, my opinion and that of the the majority is flunky does not stay.

What I want to know is, is the genetic discussion about the black cloaks made ON THE JP VERSION beforehand. (certainly there IS a document in tifas room anyway and we cannot know for sure what cloud knows about the black cloaks anyway)

Makoeyes987 · May 26, 2009

Way to go at postulating an entirely faulty and erroneous premise there :monster:

And Cloud has no damn clue what the Black Cloaked Followers of Sephiroth are. Meaning he has no factual premise of their condition. All he knows is what he sees. Which is them obeying Sephiroth's every order and will. Meaning they are his lackeys. Which is a synonym for flunky. :awesomonster:

Channy · May 26, 2009

DLPB said:
~~mcchanny~~ DLPB, a cult is not ~~flunky~~ copy

A mindless obeyer isnt a ~~flunky~~ copy

A gentically modified person following a mad man around is not a ~~flunky~~ copy.

~~The japanese version uses copy. This is nowhere near the word flunky or anything near a "lackey" no matter how much you want it to be.~~ The Japanese version was meant for the Japanese players. If it was meant for an English audience, it would have been already translated through babelfish.

~~This debate is closed~~ Bawwwww, I am butthurt. We have said all we want on it, my opinion and that of the the majority is ~~flunky~~ copy does not stay.

I think you'll find this is how the majority of the people in this thread feel.

What I want to know is, is the genetic discussion about the black cloaks made ON THE JP VERSION beforehand. (certainly there IS a document in tifas room anyway and we cannot know for sure what cloud knows about the black cloaks anyway)

Sorry, but the only thing you'll find in Tifa's room are orthopedic panties. Besides, how and why would she know anything, anything at all, about the cloaked men?

I Am Not Me · May 26, 2009

This debate is closed. We have said all we want on it, my opinion and that of the the majority is flunky does not stay.

So what did you come here for? I thought you needed help? Don't ask for help when you're not even going to use it.

Everyone fairly gave their share, and discussed it. You didn't even address their points.

And everyone keeps asking where you get your other people who agree with you. Why haven't you answered? Don't make a thread asking for help when you'll only ignore other people's posts.

KTHXBAI :monster:

DLPB · May 26, 2009

Ryushikaze said:
Even though they are Sephiroth Copies.

They are not "copies" they are genetically engineered. They have jenova cells. They are NOT CLONES. A COPY IS A CLONE. Hwo can you help when you don't even know the storyline?

Ryushikaze said:
He DOESN'T say that they are controlled puppets.

Are you even reading? I KNOW HE DOESNT. I am using that word or find BETTER WORDS to FIT the sentence than flunky which is WRONG.

Ryushikaze said:
Wait, WHAT? Genetic make up? I think, good, sir, you are highly confused or quite possibly talking out of your ass.

Read this, you ignorant man.

>

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth_Clones

"Clone" is in fact a misnomer. Sephiroth Clones are not genetic copies of Sephiroth, but rather those who carry genetic material that allow them to be his puppets. "

Ryushikaze said:
And yet you're SURE that it's speaking of Genetic Makeup and that Flunkies can't possibly be an accurate way to refer to the black cloaks?

haha yes I am sure. A flunky is a generic term given to any old foot soldier. A reference to copy is not a general term, it is specific.

I Am Not Me · May 26, 2009

Why are you here asking for help when you can use wikia? :awesome:

Go and translate on your own please. Seriously, your arrogance is very annoying. And stop calling people ignorant. Are you so intelligent that you have the right to call people that now?

Please cite your other sources as well.

Translation of the original japanese game project aka How to wind up flunkies

The Pixie King

Bad Habit

Banned Flunky

Beacause I am a puppet

Bad Habit

The Mean Clack

Fire and Blood

Bad Habit

he/they

a letter to my future self

AI Researcher

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

Banned Flunky

a letter to my future self

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE

AI Researcher

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.

The Pixie King

Bad Habit

Banned Flunky

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.

Bad Habit

The Mean Clack

Banned Flunky

The Mean Clack