Tseng x Elena fanclub(name pending)

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
I agree 100% about the time stamping on the piece and that that should be sufficient to indicate it as old work and therefore not necessarily indicative of an artist/author's current talents. I feel that artists are being very vain when they dislike how an old work makes them look.

See, I have some slightly controversial views on it because I don't think the artist should be taking it down even if they haven't improved or whatever. I think I've identified my problem with this as being that while I feel the work itself belongs to its artist/author, the experience of viewing it belongs to the viewer. In a moral sense if not a legal sense. So when an artist releases a work and allows others to view it, then tries to have control over whether or not they can view it again or tries to control their experience of viewing it, I feel that is morally wrong.

At least when a popular singer hates their song, there's nothing they can do about it because it's already been released into the popular culture. And even if they could somehow go through all the measures to ensure that no one ever again has the legal rights to play that song, as well as remove every trace of an MP3 that ever existed, they can't stop people from humming it. They can stop them from performing it, maybe—even then I'm not sure where a cover falls in intellectual property rights—but you can't stop some random Joe from singing your song to himself while he's working. Similarly, actors can't remove their films. If musicians and actors tried these things it would feel creepy and controlling.

Yet artists and authors feel they have the right to remove work they've already allowed people to enjoy from the public database, effectively doing everything in their power to prevent those people from enjoying it again. It's the same indignation I feel when a musician seems to have gone through every length to prevent MP3 sharing of their work or a tv show is not on Hulu.

It's not like anyone's trying to not give due credit to the artists. I feel like bookmarking a story or faving an image is similar to recording a song off the radio, which used to be perfectly okay in the 90s, yet today there's someone on a string attached to all the art you try to collect who's ready to yank that string and take it away from you when you're not looking, claiming it belonged to them all along anyway and that's their right.

But uh, that's a little off topic. :monster:

Anyone have any good ideas of how Tseng came to join the Turks?
 
In my heart I have the same feeling, Ravynne. It's why I would never take anything off the Internet. Once it's posted, I've given it away. No take-backs!

I guess the key to any interpretation of Tseng is whether you think he's Wutaian or not. Pretty much everybody writes him as if he is, although in fact this is entirely fanon, not canon. I have a couple of go-to head canons about how he joined the Turks (which I'm pretty sure everyone is sick of hearing about by now, but what the hell).

1. Born and raised in a remote Wutaian village, he passed a civil service selection exam at the age of 11 and won a place at school in the capital; when he was sixteen he was sent to Shinra on a "cultural exchange", fell under Veld's influence, and never went home. This Tseng sees Wutai objectively as a backward country in need of forced modernization, and subjectively as a prison made up of his family and feudal obligations. Shinra, for him, represents freedom. He actively choose to be part of the 'brave new world' Shinra seems to be forging.

2. He was a feral child on the streets of Midgar rescued by Veld when he was about 4 years old and literally raised inside the building - a little human experiment of Veld's own. Veld deliberately raised him to be the perfect Turk. What's interesting about this Tseng is that his Wutainness is only skin-deep; he has no affinity with the culture, doesn't speak the language properly, has never visited the country. His country, his culture, his language, is Shinra. Based on his outward appearance, people constantly make false assumptions about him, which he can sometimes use to his advantage. He is the subject of frequent ethnic slurs, while feeling no identity whatsoever with that ethnicity. He's constantly being told that he is something he knows he is not. He's a man whose only home is Shinra.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
While it seems that "the character is Wutaian" is a FF7 trope that I'm pretty sick of hearing—although generally as it pertains to Vincent—I think it would be hard to deny the implications that Tseng is either Wutaian or some other "Asian" ethnicity from some other country/town/city-state that we haven't been introduced to as we weren't introduced to the existence of Banora before CC. But then, I tend to use the name "Wutai" interchangeably with both the town and the continent, similar to how some people refer to those born on the North or South American continents as "American" while another meaning of the word is someone who belongs specifically to the United States.

Tseng was given a Chinese name, he does that ponytail-removing thing in BC that's supposed to reference Chinese culture, and he has that tilak (or bindi, or whatever it's supposed to be) on his forehead. Now, from what I've gathered from my 5 minute expert research on Wikipedia about tilaks and bindis, they're a Hindu thing, so SE is pretty egregiously mixing their cultural references here, but ironically I think they typically seem racist as fuck when portraying Asian cultures other than their own. Either way, Tseng has at least those three references to being Asian, and Wutai is undeniably the Asia of Gaia.

I'd also buy into Hojo being Wutaian because of his name and the significance revolving around it being the only name other than Shinra to be represented in kanji and all that, or I'd also buy him not being Wutaian because Shinra doesn't seem to be Wutaiain either. The thing that bothers me most about fans reasoning that Vincent is Wutaian is that it's usually just based on "he has black hair and looks Asian," but frankly they are characters rendered by Asian artists and they all look Asian, even the blondes and the brunettes and the redheads. But no one ever accuses blonde characters of being Wutaian just because their faces look Asian, so by that logic every FF7 character with black hair who hasn't been assigned a home town is probably Wutaian. There are a few moments in Dirge where Vincent seems to look Asian, but I feel the same about at least Lucrecia and Shalua—who are brunette and redheaded respectively and therefore generally not attributed Wutaian heritage—so I'm willing to pass that off as having more to do with the DoC team rendering characters that resemble themselves and most of the people they know. But most damningly, "Valentine" is not even a remotely Asian surname. "Tseng" is. In fact, they are both real-world surnames that can be pinpointed to real-world locations on the real-world map.

I'm willing to accept his Wutaian ethnicity without much question. What I'm more interested in questioning is how/why someone from Wutai would join the Turks, when those two factions were probably either at war or well on their way to war at that time. I thought Company Man did a very good job at explaining this, actually, but I'd like to hear other ideas, too.

I don't know if I could buy Tseng as a feral child. He's far too composed as an adult to have had that kind of upbringing. Also, the timeline seems to call into question whether or not Veld could have been the leader of the Turks for that long.

Additionally, why would he wear the tilak/bindi if he is only Wutaian by descent? Why DOES he wear it?

...And speaking of, do you think Tseng is his first name or surname? (I've always kind of leaned toward surname.)
 
I think his dot is a tattoo, not something he can remove. So it's not as if he wears it by choice.

I'm not a big believer in character profiling; characters are individuals, and if we know anything about human beings it is that they are ultimately capable of anything. So I don't think one can say that Tseng's adult composure precludes his having been found living wild on the streets. Also, he is canonically subject to explosive bursts of temper; he isn't composed by nature so much as holding it together by sheer effort of will.

I honestly really dislike all attempts to project earth ethnicities onto the people of FFVII's planet. Wutai isn't "Asia", it's Wutai, and just because they have pagodas it doesn't mean they eat sushi and believe in fox-spirits, any more than the fact that they worship Leviathan means their sacred language is Hebrew. And Barret isn't African-American; he's a Corelian coal miner. FWIW, I think Rosso the Crimson is Wutaian because she speaks with a Russian accent and many Wutaian names are Russian.

I think Tseng is his only name. I think in their culture, they only have given names, and their full name would be their given name + the name of their father + the name of their natal canton. Like people in Iceland who only have given names + the name of their father (or mother, sometimes) ie Sigrid Leifsdottir or Magnus Magnusson.

It's kind of annoying that the entire island of Wutai and the town of Wutai have the same name. The only other place we know of in Wutai is Fort Tamblin.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
I think his dot is a tattoo, not something he can remove. So it's not as if he wears it by choice.

That's certainly a possibility. Or even a mole. :monster: Selfishly, I prefer not to think of him with a big ole mole right on his forehead, but maybe whoever he belonged to (family/clan-wise) like branded him as a kid or something and while it speaks of his origins, it doesn't necessarily speak of his present or his own actions.

It's worth pointing out that having a dot on your forehead doesn't seem to be the practice of the rest of Wutai, or anywhere else, really. So it probably has something to do with a smaller subculture that Tseng's family was part of, like a certain religious sect or smaller village, as you suggested.


I'm not a big believer in character profiling; characters are individuals, and if we know anything about human beings it is that they are ultimately capable of anything. So I don't think one can say that Tseng's adult composure precludes his having been found living wild on the streets. Also, he is canonically subject to explosive bursts of temper; he isn't composed by nature so much as holding it together by sheer effort of will.

I wasn't really profiling like saying "Barret is black therefore he likes rap music and has hang-ups about slavery." This is a nurture issue, not a nature one, so I feel it's a little more legit to posit that one who was feral during his developmental years would probably be unlikely to be so calm and composed as an adult. I could be incorrect about that, but I don't think the logic that got me there is all that wrong.

Out of interest, though, could you elaborate on times that you saw him being subject to explosive bursts of temper? I'm not challenging you on this; I'm relatively new to paying attention to Tseng, have never noticed before, and would like to know.


I honestly really dislike all attempts to project earth ethnicities onto the people of FFVII's planet. Wutai isn't "Asia", it's Wutai, and just because they have pagodas it doesn't mean they eat sushi and believe in fox-spirits, any more than the fact that they worship Leviathan means their sacred language is Hebrew. And Barret isn't African-American; he's a Corelian coal miner. FWIW, I think Rosso the Crimson is Wutaian because she speaks with a Russian accent and many Wutaian names are Russian.

I would agree if the game didn't do such a damnable job of doing it themselves. The Epcot-like villages of Wutai and Cosmo Canyon, as well as the stereotypical mannerisms of Cid and Barret, are enough proof of that.

As a comparison, in the real world I do not believe in astrology or bloodtyping. But where FF7 characters are concerned, I would argue for a character acting in accordance with his or her bloodtype or astrological personality. Reason being that they gave them those attributes on purpose, for a reason, and I'm more or less following the rules of logic that the universe they created seems to abide by.

This is similar to something I'm coming to terms with regarding fanfiction, also. Sometimes I look at aspects of Advent Children or Crisis Core and think to myself, "If I had read this ten years ago as somebody's fanfic I would think it's the most ridiculous, poorly written thing ever." Your main villain just happens to Sephiroth's never-before-spoken-of-best-buddy and also underwent the same experiments as he did, but was first? Hello, Gary Stu. Oh, suddenly Rufus and Tseng are both alive because it serves your plot? Well that's convenient and completely implausible. Please, Vincent just happens to appear to save Cloud right at that moment, not to mention is capable of escaping the uber-powerful Remnants because he can fly like some kind of weird red cloak ghost thing—while carrying Cloud—and rescued Tseng and Elena, too? I'mma start calling him Vincent ex machina, and your fanfiction sucks.

I mean, the Remnants, period? Sephiroth reforming? Aerith basically subverting her death by still having influence?

These are all things I would have avoided if I were writing FF7 fanfiction. But then it occurred to me, if the canon is so ridiculous at times, why avoid being ridiculous in fanfiction if the canon itself gives no such concerns? (Particularly, this has been a concern of mine with writing Vincent, where I will try to temper his capabilities so that he doesn't come off as some kind of invincible uber-powerful badass Superman and then I realize that's more or less what the canon made out of him anyhow.)

So if the canon indicates that Wutai is an offensively amalgamated portrayal of a generic Asian land, then I have few qualms about looking at an offensively amalgamated portrayal of a generic Asian person and saying, "He must be from Wutai." If I were writing FF7, it would be different, but those are the natural laws of the universe that they've set themselves, I'm afraid.


I think Tseng is his only name. I think in their culture, they only have given names, and their full name would be their given name + the name of their father + the name of their natal canton. Like people in Iceland who only have given names + the name of their father (or mother, sometimes) ie Sigrid Leifsdottir or Magnus Magnusson.

Possible. But then, I don't know which culture on the FF7 map establishes the practice of people not having surnames. The Cetra might, but let's not go there. :monster: (Although wouldn't that make for interesting fanfiction?!)


It's kind of annoying that the entire island of Wutai and the town of Wutai have the same name. The only other place we know of in Wutai is Fort Tamblin.

Is that actually canon? I thought it was just something I picked up due to Wutai being the only town on that continent on the original map. And me being racist, obvs. :monster:
 
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In a world where they have Korean Barbecue and no Korea, and Texas beer but no Texas, and a Costa del Sol but no Spain, I'm pretty sure there's no holds barred when it comes to mashing up geography! Unless the name for the island on which Wutai is sited is Korea? Or maybe Coria? I don't know if it's canon or not that both the island and the town are called Wutai, but everyone of Yuffie's ethnicity is called Wutaian, and it's hard to imagine Shinra waging a 10 year long war or however long it lasted against a single town. As far as I know, they never specified that the town is called something different from the island, so that's all we have to go on.

As for Tseng's temper, I can think of two instances off the top of my head: when he slaps Aerith on the helicopter, and in "The Kids Are All Right" when he basically beats a corrupt doctor to death out of sheer rage and disgust at his behaviour. I have a feeling that it says in some Ultimania that he has a bad temper, but I can't recall exactly where. FWIW, in my fanfic where he has that backstory, it takes a long time for Veld to tame him, and he is so ferociously brutal at school that he eventually gets expelled after nearly beating another kid to death. Veld teaches him to channel all that viciousness into his work.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
I don't know if it's canon or not that both the island and the town are called Wutai, but everyone of Yuffie's ethnicity is called Wutaian,

Are they, though? Isn't that a fanon convention, too?


and it's hard to imagine Shinra waging a 10 year long war or however long it lasted against a single town. As far as I know, they never specified that the town is called something different from the island, so that's all we have to go on.

As far as i know, they never gave any of the continents actual names, but I've very non-canonically referred to them as the Eastern Continent, <s>Westeros</s> the Western Continent, the Northern Continent (this one might be canon?), and Wutai. Never gave much thought to the islands of Mideel and the ToA, actually. Let's go with "Mideelia." :monster:

As for Tseng's temper, I can think of two instances off the top of my head: when he slaps Aerith on the helicopter, and in "The Kids Are All Right" when he basically beats a corrupt doctor to death out of sheer rage and disgust at his behaviour. I have a feeling that it says in some Ultimania that he has a bad temper, but I can't recall exactly where. FWIW, in my fanfic where he has that backstory, it takes a long time for Veld to tame him, and he is so ferociously brutal at school that he eventually gets expelled after nearly beating another kid to death. Veld teaches him to channel all that viciousness into his work.

A lot of meditating, I guess. You know, to go with his offensively amalgamated Asianness. :monster:

Thanks, I'll check out those references. Haven't gotten around to TKAAR yet. But slapping Aerith I always took to be playing the part.
 
Well, tbh I long ago passed over the dividing line between the Tseng who is SE's character and the Tseng who is mine. And I don't really care. FWIW my Tseng does not meditate, does not drink green or jasmine tea (just lots of coffee) and does not practice any martial arts. Good old queensberry rules for him.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Is there any actual ethnic difference between Wutai and everyone else? The only one we see in modern graphics is Yuffie, and her features don't seem much different to anyone else's to me. Maybe I'm just blind, but we have only two characters (maybe) canonically for definite from Wutai, that's not really enough to determine racial traits.
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
joudama wrote an interesting essay, proposing that Wutai had an expansionist past to explain why a ton of characters look Asian* but with different coloring: http://stopthatgirl7.insanejournal.com/210716.html

Just some food for thought.

*Or, as I would put it, why everyone apparently looks like Gackt.

(Do people want to move the Wutai talk into another thread? It's interesting, and I never would've found it if I hadn't accidentally clicked on this thread ...)
 
Oh man, I love Joudama and her fic. If I weren't so wedded to doing my own world-building, I would defo borrow hers. She truly is well qualified linguistically and historically to build a whole Wutai out of very little.
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
Well, clearly now you must tell us about your own Wutai worldbuilding. :P
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
Is there any actual ethnic difference between Wutai and everyone else? The only one we see in modern graphics is Yuffie, and her features don't seem much different to anyone else's to me. Maybe I'm just blind, but we have only two characters (maybe) canonically for definite from Wutai, that's not really enough to determine racial traits.

Not a whole lot, mostly because a large portion of the cast kind of waver between looking white and Asian, but usually Asian anime characters don't look a whole lot different from caucasian anime characters.

For what it's worth, here's the TV Trope for it, which I didn't even know officially existed until I went looking for it, certain that it must:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mukokuseki

And sure enough, it cites FF7 as an example and Yuffie and Tseng's obvious Asianness.

Likewise, the Final Fantasy wiki, while not a reliable source of canon, does note that "The Wutai people, much like the culture and settlement, are based primarily off of Japan and China. They have the characteristics, appearance and somewhat stereotypical personality traits of real-world East Asia."

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Wutai

No, there might never be a canon reference to Wutai "being Asia," nor should there be, but there are enough hints to give enough people a good guess as to who is Wutaian and who is not.
 
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&#8221;In The Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, the characters seem to span a wide range of races. Cloud, Zack, Reno, and Elena all have mixed asian/caucasian features. Yuffie is most obviously completely asian, as is Tseng, and Tifa switches between looking asian and white. Aerith and Sid are as caucasian as they come. Barret and Rude are obviously black. Red XIII is a dog and Cait Sith is a cat.&#8221;

Lol, Nanaki is not a dog, and Cait Sith is a robot. I don't think Tseng looks any more Asian than he does Jewish or Turk, or Aztec, tbh.

I don't have any problem seeing these characters as what they are: Wuteng, Corelian, Nibelheimer, Gongagan, etc... Like I said, I don't see why we have to assign them earth races, although I accept that for some people doing so is important.
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
SE does have a history of mapping fictional locations onto real world locations. The most obvious example (even more obvious than Wutai = roughly Japan, possibly east Asia) would be the Cape of Good Hope in FF8, which is a real location in South Africa with, you guessed it, a lighthouse and flower fields.

(One can actually correlate more than one place in FF8 to RL locations, and what's more, everything more or less lines up coherently on an actual map without too much juggling.)

I don't think it's a fruitless exercise to map things out this way, because it can actually clarify relationships between political entities in a fictional world. It can also help you figure out the general environment of a given location -- climate, weather, flora and fauna -- and give you a pretty good starting place if you're looking to enrich an otherwise flat Squeenix culture.

Necessary to do? Of course not. But I think it's completely valid to approach worldbuilding in this manner, especially if it doesn't contradict anything in the game.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
Lol, Nanaki is not a dog, and Cait Sith is a robot. I don't think Tseng looks any more Asian than he does Jewish or Turk, or Aztec, tbh.

I believe they were oversimplifying in regard to Red and Cait for the purpose of humor.

Frankly, fictional characters are Rorschachs and you're always going to be able to see what you want to see if you squint hard enough. I'm not going to bother convincing you that one's not a ghost. I'm just telling you, everyone else is seeing a butterfly.


I don't have any problem seeing these characters as what they are: Wuteng, Corelian, Nibelheimer, Gongagan, etc... Like I said, I don't see why we have to assign them earth races, although I accept that for some people doing so is important.

I think Skan said it pretty perfectly: world building.

It's a point of reference to the world we know. It's not "important"; it's just sensibly convenient.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
joudama wrote an interesting essay, proposing that Wutai had an expansionist past to explain why a ton of characters look Asian* but with different coloring: http://stopthatgirl7.insanejournal.com/210716.html

Just some food for thought.

*Or, as I would put it, why everyone apparently looks like Gackt.

(Do people want to move the Wutai talk into another thread? It's interesting, and I never would've found it if I hadn't accidentally clicked on this thread ...)


I once read an article that 1 out of 100 people are distantly related to Genghis Khan

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/g...ect-descendants-of-genghis-khan/#.VFcnkfTF-vk

So it's my head canon that the founder of the Wutain Empire was identical to Gackt and concurred most of the Western Continent, reaching as far a Mideel.

The original people of the Western Continent originated around Corel (which was once plains, not a desert), and later people from the Northern Continent settled in the norther parts of the Western Continent.

Blonde hair and blue eyes is a trait originating in the cold northern continent, although it evolved independently in Mideel. Dark skin originated in Corel, with people in Costa and Cosmo canyon being darker. Gonga is a mix of descendants of Wutains and Norther Continent people, so you get black hair and blue eyes.

Personally, I think Wutai is a mix of all of Asian made up of smaller countries that each micro versions of various asian cultures/countries that all intermixed, united. So you have people of mixed heritage, and it's a melting pot culture.

However, I'm always a bit worried about writing Wutai because I don't want to be racist or contribute to racist stereotypes. "All Asians are the Same" is a pretty bad stereotype. Now of course, I'm aware that China and Japan are different countries (countries that don't have the prettiest history). I gave one of my OCs a Japanese first name and Chinese Last time (much like Yuffie has a Chinese first name and Japanese last time), not because I think names don't matter or China and Japan are the same, but I see Wutai as extremely ethnically mixed, with Japanese equivalent first names being in vogue because the emperor's line if from the Japanese equivalent culture, and therefor seen as prettier.

Much like how in England after the French concurred the country, French became the language of the aristocracy and English adopted French words, I see Wutains as adopting Japanese names and over all a lot of mixed names due to a lot of mixing on the Wutai Continent.

That's my head canon. I don't want to be racist though, or hurt any actual asians who read my story. I'm just trying to make sense of the canon as given, a canon where a girl named Yuffie has a friend called Yuri (probably Russian if used as a boy's name) and a mentor called Chekov.

Anyone have any good ideas of how Tseng came to join the Turks?

My head canon was influenced by Licorice's head canon. She's one of the first authors I read in the FFVII fandom and the one who made me interested in Tseng as a character. Coming in, I only really had a clear picture of Rufus Shinra in my mind (I sort of watched ACC and then Case of Shinra before anything else in the compilation, I got into the series through an interest in Rufus), and Reno because I shipped him with Rufus. Because Tseng was pretty blank slate for me at first and Licorice wrote Tseng so well, her ideas really had a huge impact on me.

That said, my head canon is sort of a combination of her two head canons, with some of my own stuff thrown in.

In my head canon, Tseng's mother, Hanako, was fascinated by the "Eastern World" and visited Junon (then a thriving cultural center and port) to study Eastern music. After getting pregnant, she made the choice to have Tseng in Midgar and raise him there because she thought he'd have more freedom and opportunity. In Lic's words, she "sees Wutai objectively as a backward country in need of forced modernization, and subjectively as a prison made up of his family and feudal obligations. Shinra represents freedom." She became friends with Veld through his wife, who she'd met at University in Junon and considered her best friend. She admired that Veld worked for Shinra, and saw what he did as working towards progress.

When Tseng was two years old she returned to Wutai for her father's funeral, she was informed that she would not be able to take Tseng out of wutai. They seized his travel documents and barred him from leaving the country. The reason being that Wutai feared a coming conflict with Shinra (my head canon being there was a cold war with wutai long before the actual extended conflict broke out), and believed that Shinra would raise Wutain children to use as spies. Since Tseng's parents are Wutain, he's considered Wutain and they the law said they could keep him from leaving.

Hanako knew Veld worked for Shinra, and knew the President himself. She hoped that meant he might have enough influence to help her get her son out. Veld pulled some strings, and she was allowed to leave with her child, but not before the boy was marked as an "outsider". Forever branded as an outcast so he could never return and corrupt true wutains, since the government was convinced he had ties to Shinra.

Five years later, many Wutains had illegally fled Wutai to seek the rumored better life under Shinra (much like people leaving Cuba for Florida, but fleeing Feudalism instead of communism). Due to racism/oppression, many of those from wutai lived in the slums where tensions rose between the immigrants and those who had been there longer (Think "Gangs of New York" with Irish vs 'locals' - if someone is different and in competition for jobs, bigotry arrises). As tensions between Shinra and Wutai grew in the political arena, gang wars had all ready come to the slums.

It would not be in Shinra's interest for Wutain gangs to control Midgar's underworld. Shinra could tolerate crime, but only if the "Boss's" understood who owned the city and so the Turk's became invested in insuring the young "Boss Corneo" came out on top.

The problem? It was hard to gain intel on the Wuatin gangs. If you weren't Wutain, you weren't getting in. Veld needed someone on the inside, but none of his Turks were Wutain and he needed to be sure he could trust whoever he sent.

So he turned to Hanako. He'd done her a favor five years ago and now he needed one from her. Go to certain clubs wearing a wire, get close to gang leaders, she was beautiful and charming, it would be easy. Of course, Hanako was reluctant, she had her son to consider. If anything happened to her, Tseng would be all alone.

Veld promised nothing would happen, and that if anything did he'd make sure Tseng would be looked after. Hanako loved Veld, trusted Veld, and wanted to repay him and so she eventually agreed.

The gang discovered there'd been a rat, tracked down Hananko and shot here while Tseng watched. They would have killed Tseng, but the Turks had discovered their source had been compromised. Veld arrived moments too late to save her, but soon enough to shoot the killers before they killed her child.

This is how Tseng came to Veld: seven years old and covered in blood.

The head of Shinra's phycology department (long since defunded and forgotten) evaluated Tseng at Veld's request. His determination was that the trauma could leave too damaged to live a normal life, possibly dangerous, and emotionally unstable.

If the boy was to survive, he'd need a support system. Veld couldn't just place him in a home, and things were hard enough for Wutain children in Midgar orphanages without them being traumatized. Veld knew Tseng was unlikely to ever be "adoptable", the alternative was to put him in an institution, but Tseng was his responsibility now, he owed Hananko that much.

He couldn't keep Tseng himself. His family life was rocky enough with his work schedule and a new born at home. The pregnancy hadn't been easy on his wife, Veld's career hadn't been easy on his wife. He knew she'd want to take Tseng, Hananko had been her friend, but he wasn't sure if their marriage, if his family, could take the strain of raising a boy who might never be a normal child.
And what if Tseng turned out to be dangerous? What if he hurt Felicia?

Two things in Veld's life mattered: His family and the Turks. There was no room for Tseng in his family, but maybe there could be with the Turks.

From here my head canon follows Lic's. Tseng has no memory before the age of seven, he is "literally raised inside the building - a little human experiment of Veld's own. Veld deliberately raised him to be the perfect Turk. What's interesting about this Tseng is that his Wutainness is only skin-deep; he has no affinity with the culture, doesn't speak the language properly, has never visited the country. His country, his culture, his language, is Shinra. Based on his outward appearance, people constantly make false assumptions about him, which he can sometimes use to his advantage. He is the subject of frequent ethnic slurs, while feeling no identity whatsoever with that ethnicity. He's constantly being told that he is something he knows he is not. He's a man whose only home is Shinra."

The only difference between my head canon and hers is Tseng's age (my Tseng is younger, only 7 years older than Rufus). And that Veld's experiment was somewhat in response to the director of phycology's own experiment with raising select children to be super soldiers (his theory was to test if environment alone, without genetic modification, was enough to create superior warriors - Cissnei was raised by Shinra (though not by Veld) as part of his experiment- for that head canon see here https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8552070/1/Shuriken-Female ). The director's experiment involved raising children to be killers, isolating them, forcing them to compete in hunger games esce survival trials. The director bragged he could create the perfect warrior.

Veld disagreed. He thought the perfect warrior was one with loyalty, and that loyalty was built on trust. He raised Tseng to trust him, to trust his orders, to trust Shinra. Whereas Cissnei was raised to be suspicious and Veld had to undo a lot of damage to integrate her into the Turks when she was turned over to him (it's canon she has issues letting her guard down and trusting others), Tseng was raised to trust, to care, but only for ShinRa, only in ways which were useful.

Veld never meant for Hananko to die, the guilt plagued him, but he cames to terms with the fact that being a Turk meant taking risks, doing what was necessary, he'd needed a Wutain on his side, and now Hananko would have her wish. Tseng would always be looked after, and Veld gained an asset.

Veld tried to be cold, drown out his guilt with a utilitarian montra, but as the years passed, in his heart, Veld knew what he'd gained was a protégée, a son.

((so that's my head canon, sorry this is long. Still not sure if I want Veld and Hananko as friends or if they had an affair at some point - open to suggestions there))
 
I believe they were oversimplifying in regard to Red and Cait for the purpose of humor.

Frankly, fictional characters are Rorschachs and you're always going to be able to see what you want to see if you squint hard enough. I'm not going to bother convincing you that one's not a ghost. I'm just telling you, everyone else is seeing a butterfly.

Yes - but maybe that's just bandwagoning or a lack of imagination? It's human nature to follow the leader. I myself conceive of Tseng as Wutaian, but I acknowledge it is perfectly within the bounds of possibility to conceive of him as something else. I mean, he could even be Transylvanian.


I think Skan said it pretty perfectly: world building.

It's a point of reference to the world we know. It's not "important"; it's just sensibly convenient.

Of course, it gives one a good jumping-off point. But to stick with the example of Wutai, I find it interesting that everyone focuses on the "Asian" elements of Wutai and not on the fact that so many of the people have Russian names (Chekov, Gorky, Yuri) or that they worship an Old Testament sea monster.

And if Wutai is Asia, then the northern part of the Western Continent must surely be Europe: Spain (Costa del Sol); Germany or Scandinavia (Nibelheim); Olde England (Rocket Town). The mesa people of Cosmo Canyon are probably in the middle of a region called Texas - and what about Gongaga? With its round huts and painted walls, it's clearly an African village, which is weird, because everyone who lives there is white.

Everyone is free to make the world of FFVII as much like our world as they like. But they are also free not to. It's when people become invested in insisting that Yuffie is "obviously" Chinese or Barret is "obviously" African-American, and that it's wrong to interpret them in any other way, that I draw the line.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I think it depends on why people have head canons. If they make Tseng Asian to make him exotic or fetishize him, that's obviously problematic as if reducing characters to real world stereotypes. If an author is an Asian-American who wants to see representation and so they head canon more character as Wutain or mixed, then that's valid.

With Barret, he's black, and seems to be based on Mr. T (an African American Character), but he's not African-American because there is no America. He's from Corel and so is Knives Turk, and maybe they both would speak the same way, maybe that's how people speak in Corel.

Real world African American Vernacular English evolved out of a mix of languages and accented Native American, African, southern white, Irish - it has a history and a culture that don't exist in the world of FFVII - but maybe for some reason that's how people sound in Corel because that's how the writers wanted them to sound. Maybe in Costa they speak Spanish- because thats what the writers wanted. They didn't want to world build their own languages and histories so we get a mix match of things from our world, but don't necessarily have to ascribe the history of our world.

Personally, I think it's weird that people in Gongaga have white skin because it's clearly tropical and white skin is a mutation that only cropped up in humans who were living in colder, sunless regions. White skin as a mutation is only useful is you need to absorb more vitamin D from limited sunlight. White skin anywhere with lots of sunlight leads to over exposure to UV.

In our world, humans evolved in Africa and had skin designed to live protect us living on the equator in the sun. As humans spread to colder regions we needed less melanin to protect us from the sun and a greater ability to absorb vitamin D from limited sun light. That's why if you look at a map of skin tones you see darker skin near the equator and lighter skin the further you get away from the equator.

So it makes sense that people from the Northern Continent would be white so my assumption is the populations in Nibelheim, for example, came there later after populations moved down from the Northern Continent in pre-history. That Gongogans are are mix of these Northern Continent settlers and Wutains and they just settled there.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
”In The Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, the characters seem to span a wide range of races. Cloud, Zack, Reno, and Elena all have mixed asian/caucasian features. Yuffie is most obviously completely asian, as is Tseng, and Tifa switches between looking asian and white. Aerith and Sid are as caucasian as they come. Barret and Rude are obviously black. Red XIII is a dog and Cait Sith is a cat.”

Nobody has asian features - unless they mean an asian person who has has a fuckload of surgery to look westernised. :closedmonster:

I'd fucking love it if SE actually created characters that looked like regular Japanese people.

/slightly off topic
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
Of course, it gives one a good jumping-off point. But to stick with the example of Wutai, I find it interesting that everyone focuses on the "Asian" elements of Wutai and not on the fact that so many of the people have Russian names (Chekov, Gorky, Yuri) or that they worship an Old Testament sea monster.
I always thought that Leviathan's origins have pretty much lost all meaning in Final Fantasy and that it's more or less become a generic "huge fucking sea serpent." Same with a lot of the other monsters (e.g. Behemoth, Tiamat, Bahamut, the "Zu bird," so on and so forth).

Also, people focus on the Asian aspects because they overwhelmingly predominate in Wutai. When the only Russian evidence you can point to are the names, then I don't think it's unreasonable for people to just assume that "present-day Wutai" is more Asian-influenced and less Russian-influenced. I think it should behoove people to give more thought to the presence of the Russian names -- and I'm very, very surprised joudama didn't -- but it flat-out doesn't matter to most people, because it doesn't actually change anything in their stories.

@ Cameo: FWIW, as an Asian-American, I think your Wutai headcanon sounds inoffensive. If you have historical precedent for that kind of headcanon, then sure, why not. (If you want to go way back, you probably have similar things going on with Sumerian-speakers and Semitic-language speakers in ancient Mesopotamia.)

EDIT: Just blathering some more as I drink my coffee, but it strikes me that a bunch of place names are Chinese (i.e. two of them, out of three): Wutai and Da-chao. If someone knows the Tamblin etymology, please let me know.

Then you have a number of Wutai soldiers who show up in the Wutai remnants missions. They seem to have Chinese names correlated with the 10 heavenly stems of the Chinese calendar (i.e. bing, ding, geng, ji, jia, wu, xin, yi; we're missing ren and gui). I kind of want to see these as titles or as code names since they're obviously inspired by the crescent connotations (moon, month, etc.). And it makes sense since they show up only in the missions. Anyways, it seems like some kind of traditional naming system.

This does make me wonder if the "Chinese" speakers were around earlier (at least early enough to name the village/structures), since place names and traditional titles tend to endure. Generally speaking. I can think of already a dozen RL counterexamples just off the top of my head, but just food for thought.

Personal names do tend to have a long life too, admittedly, but they undergo a lot more variation as they're borrowed into languages. Today's Esther was yesterday's Ishtar, and today's Caleb is more or less traceable back to Akkadian kalbum, "dog." But Wutai, Da chao, and the soldier names seem to be original Chinese.
 
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Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
However, I'm always a bit worried about writing Wutai because I don't want to be racist or contribute to racist stereotypes. "All Asians are the Same" is a pretty bad stereotype. Now of course, I'm aware that China and Japan are different countries (countries that don't have the prettiest history). I gave one of my OCs a Japanese first name and Chinese Last time (much like Yuffie has a Chinese first name and Japanese last time), not because I think names don't matter or China and Japan are the same, but I see Wutai as extremely ethnically mixed, with Japanese equivalent first names being in vogue because the emperor's line if from the Japanese equivalent culture, and therefor seen as prettier.

See, this is where I think it's okay to draw the line and start saying "Wutai is not real-world Asia." Therefore, you cannot be racist toward real-world Asia via a depiction of Wutai. The original creators of Wutai possibly could be considered so, but as you are just depicting someone else's creation, the burden of racism lies on them and not you.

If I write Hitler as a character, I'm not Jew-hating; I'm depicting a racist person, and probably going to try for as much accuracy as I can manage because that's who I am as a writer.

Thanks for sharing your story. I like the bit about the gangs.


Yes - but maybe that's just bandwagoning or a lack of imagination? It's human nature to follow the leader. I myself conceive of Tseng as Wutaian, but I acknowledge it is perfectly within the bounds of possibility to conceive of him as something else. I mean, he could even be Transylvanian.

Because there were lots of hints and visual cues for us to be reasonably led to believe he is Transylvanian. :monster:


Everyone is free to make the world of FFVII as much like our world as they like. But they are also free not to.

Which is exactly why I am resisting your resistance to me thinking of Tseng, Yuffie, and possibly Hojo as "basically Asian." Like I said, you can think what you want. And as many times as you try to argue for vague possibilities of any other thing in the world being true, I'm going to stand by my right to be able to call it like I see it.


I think it depends on why people have head canons. If they make Tseng Asian to make him exotic or fetishize him, that's obviously problematic as if reducing characters to real world stereotypes. If an author is an Asian-American who wants to see representation and so they head canon more character as Wutain or mixed, then that's valid.

For what it's worth, I think of Barret as black and Tseng as Asian because I'm just calling a spade a spade. There is no ulterior motive. It's just Occam's razor.


I'd fucking love it if SE actually created characters that looked like regular Japanese people.

Yes but then everyone would have straight dark hair and brown eyes and there would be little visual distinction between characters, which is why there are an awful lot of "white" people in anime, manga, and JRPGs.

Besides, considering JRPGs tend to span entire worlds, how likely would it be for an entire planet to contain no racial distinction? Tbh, I just wish they had more dark skinned people.


Also, people focus on the Asian aspects because they overwhelmingly predominate in Wutai. When the only Russian evidence you can point to are the names, then I don't think it's unreasonable for people to just assume that "present-day Wutai" is more Asian-influenced and less Russian-influenced. I think it should behoove people to give more thought to the presence of the Russian names -- and I'm very, very surprised joudama didn't -- but it flat-out doesn't matter to most people, because it doesn't actually change anything in their stories.

You know, guys, part of Russia is in Asia...


Anyway, what are some of your favorite offered names for Elena's sister? The FF wiki says there were some production notes or something where the BC Turks were given working names or something, and she was labeled as "Emma." Has anyone else heard of this?
 
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CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I use Rosalind because that's what Lic used and what Gunshot Romance used (when it was still up, it was the most complete translation available).

If I were to name her myself, I'd call her Arlene because it contains an anagram of Elena and plus X = Larxene so if I want to do a KH cross over I can, LOL.

I also have a head canon that Elena and her sister's mother was a Turk (killed in action when they were children) and her name was Jackie. Their father's last name was Carter, but Turks give up sur-names and legally have their last names replaced by "of the Turks" until their death.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
When a fantasy world suddenly looks suspiciously earthlike, to be honest, I eye it askance somewhat. What none of these headcanons so far has taken into account is that there was a catastrophic, planet threatening meteor strike a mere two thousand years ago (not very long in geological time, not sure if it's long enough to develop skin tone, but I suspect not.). that might have thinned out the population and resulted in racial and cultural mixing amongst the survivors, or that people would emigrate the hell away from the site of the impact and therefore any race might then be found anywhere in the world And nobody accounted for the Cetra, or Red XIII's people. Drawing real world comparisons is fine, but it's important to remember the history we've seen as well. Should we assume that Christianity exists in the gameworld because we've seen cross shaped headstones? That's not a random shape, it references a specific religious event.

I'm hesitant about the idea that 'this aspect belongs to X country, therefore this aspect of X country is true in the gameworld as well.' Taking one familiar aspect is fine, but you have to be careful about drawing assumptions from it. Wutai is often stereotyped as an oppressive, traditional culture that Yuffie is rebelling against. She is not actually a rebellious princess, though, she appears to have the full support of her father and her citizens, and actually wants to help her culture revive from its current state pandering to tourists.

Of course, everyone is free to take whatever interpretation they want, this is just my perspective.

Also: Hi Cameo, welcome back.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I assume it's Feudal, due to the emperor and assume before the war it was like Japan pre-WWII. So traditional compared to Shin-ra's free market capitalism.

Yuffie wasn't rebelling against her traditions, she was rebelling against Shin-ra's occupation of Wutai and her father's "failure" to uphold tradition.

In my headcanon, Tseng's mom, Hana, was the daughter of a wealthy merchant and a noble woman, arranged to marry a noble man who she loved, but when she got pregnant before the marriage, she didn't like the idea that having his child would mean fulfilling certain expectations, raising her child to fulfill his or her place within their society, and she wanted to be a musician and have her child be whatever they wanted, and to her Shinra represented freedom and opportunity.

Although I don't think "traditional and oppressive" is uniquely asian, but something that can happen in any culture. I based Hana's mother on my Brittish friend's mum who never accepted anything she wanted or did and way always guilting her for not living up to their family name.
 
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