(Un)Official FFVII Tier List

[ForceStealer]

I dunno, Sephiroth sure didn't seem to want to deal with the Weapons in VII. And I don't know if Omega Weapon counts as a "character," so they're probably less concerned with his power relative to Sephy. but I honestly don't know if AC Seph could defeat Omega. Given his penchant for controlling a large chunk of the corrupted Lifestream, it's very possible, but I don't know.

But I HIGHLY doubt Cloud could just run swinging his sword and hope to beat Omega. The entire team couldn't even beat Diamond, only deter it from advancing further. It was Chaos that possessed the necessary power to neutralize it. Yes, of course things are contrived such that the main character of a game will be able to kill a threat, but if anyone other than Vincent could have done anything to Omega, I'm sure they would have. Vincent told Cloud he'd handle the Tsviets.

 

[Roger]

1) That still doesn't change what I said about Omega's 'ranking' on the tier list.
Omega's body(a body that Omega, obviously, have full control over) is composed of the entire source of magic, knowledge, life, and power in the FFVII-verse... Making it the strongest creature presented in the series.

Kadaj, Sephiroth, Loz and Yazoo's bodies are entirely composed of Lifestream too.

2) AVALANCHE destroyed the Reactors before Omega could suck all of the Lifestream from them, so no, the planet wouldn't be dead by the end of DoC.
It was an incomplete Omega we saw.

Omega doesn't need Reactors to be formed, WEAPONS aren't created with Reactors in mind. He just took off into the atmosphere.

Sephiroth was holding back Holy, not the Lifestream. The Lifestream only kicked in after Holy's failure to destroy Meteor.

That's so stupid I can't even describe it. The Planet was going to be destroyed because it of it's own accord insisted on waiting in line behind Holy. That's what you believe the threat in FFVII i huh?

Created by the Lifestream, but not composed of it like Omega was. And even if they were, the complete Omega is supposed to be formed of the entire Lifestream of the planet. Comparing it's power to that of a normal Weapon is laughable.

No it ain't.

DG SOLDIERs started killing people to trick the Planet into thinking the world was going to end, and summon Omega. And when Omega was awakened, it started to suck all the Lifestream it could, not only the souls of the people killed by DG.
And it was a little corrupted due to Nero's(who merged with Weiss) Stagnant Lifestream. Nothing more.

What do you mean all the Lifestream it could. THE entire Lifestream can only absorb a certain amount of itself?

And again, if Sephiroth was above it, he wouldn't need to take control over it.

And he didn't. The Lifestream was under Aerith controls through out end game FFVII through AC.

I dunno, Sephiroth sure didn't seem to want to deal with the Weapons in VII.

Uhm, wasn't it the other way around? The moment Sephiroth wakes up the WEAPONS high tail it out of the crater like they've got the devil on their tail Sephiroth straight up evicted them and there was nothing they could do about it.

But I HIGHLY doubt Cloud could just run swinging his sword and hope to beat Omega. The entire team couldn't even beat Diamond, only deter it from advancing further. It was Chaos that possessed the necessary power to neutralize it. Yes, of course things are contrived such that the main character of a game will be able to kill a threat, but if anyone other than Vincent could have done anything to Omega, I'm sure they would have. Vincent told Cloud he'd handle the Tsviets.

Like I sad before, Omega was taking off. It was way up in the atmosphere when Omega was destroyed by Vincent, Cloud can't get to it there.

 

[Wolfmania]

I dunno, Sephiroth sure didn't seem to want to deal with the Weapons in VII. And I don't know if Omega Weapon counts as a "character," so they're probably less concerned with his power relative to Sephy. but I honestly don't know if AC Seph could defeat Omega. Given his penchant for controlling a large chunk of the corrupted Lifestream, it's very possible, but I don't know.

Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss are both characters.

Sephiroth is stronger than either.

Besides, don't forget he "is above everything".

But I HIGHLY doubt Cloud could just run swinging his sword and hope to beat Omega. The entire team couldn't even beat Diamond, only deter it from advancing further. It was Chaos that possessed the necessary power to neutralize it. Yes, of course things are contrived such that the main character of a game will be able to kill a threat, but if anyone other than Vincent could have done anything to Omega, I'm sure they would have. Vincent told Cloud he'd handle the Tsviets.

You're talking about FFVII Cloud to DoC Cloud, don't compare tehm, really. AC Cloud surpassed Chaos a long time ago.

7:12 onwards.

Cloud wasn't even taking this threat seriously, dude was just walking around with one sword out of six and helping his friend.

Vincent told Cloud:

"Don't worry. Leave Deepground to me."

So he did. It's called having trust in your friend.

Vincent also outright stated he couldn't do anything against Sephiroth in AC, and only Cloud could, considering he had full control of Chaos at the time, It falls in-line with all the creator's quotes.

 

[ForceStealer]

Omega doesn't need Reactors to be formed, WEAPONS aren't created with Reactors in mind. He just took off into the atmosphere.

Omega is supposed to absorb all the Lifestream in the Planet, and the way DG had it set up, the reactors were Omega's connection to the planet and the means by which it was absorbing the Lifestream. It only took off because Avalanche destroyed the reactors. So it either thought it had all the Lifestream, or figured it would cut it's losses and go.
That said, I don't know if there's any reason to assume that the amount of Lifestream that Omega absorbs has any bearing on its strength. It's meant to carry the Lifestream to a new planet, it could have a static amount of power. The only thing that probably weakened Omega was Nero's corruption.

Uhm, wasn't it the other way around? The moment Sephiroth wakes up the WEAPONS high tail it out of the crater like they've got the devil on their tail Sephiroth straight up evicted them and there was nothing they could do about it.

I didn't think they were fleeing, I just thought they woke up to go start tearin' shit up, as Barret puts it, probably focusing on high-population centers. Sephiroth had a barrier around him presumably to stop anyone, including the Weapons from getting to him, but again I'm not trying to make a claim that he couldn't have handled them or anything, I don't know.

You're talking about FFVII Cloud to DoC Cloud, don't compare tehm, really. AC Cloud surpassed Chaos a long time ago.

I still have a hard time believing Cloud could just run in slashing and hope to bring down Omega. I agree he could probably take Chaos, but it's not necessarily as simple as Cloud beats Chaos, Chaos beats Omega, therefore Cloud beats Omega. As I said before, Chaos might've been the only one to take Omega down.
It's about having the right tool for the job. A sledgehammer is a lot more powerful than a wrench, but if you want to undo a bolt, the sledgehammer isn't going to do you much good.

"Don't worry. Leave Deepground to me."

So he did. It's called having trust in your friend.

Vincent also outright stated he couldn't do anything against Sephiroth in AC, and only Cloud could, considering he had full control of Chaos at the time, It falls in-line with all the creator's quotes.

1) Deepground =/= Omega Weapon. The stakes had been raised at that point, and if Cloud could have done more and didn't, he's a moron.

2) See tool analogy above.

 

[Roger]

I didn't think they were fleeing, I just thought they woke up to go start tearin' shit up, as Barret puts it, probably focusing on high-population centers. Sephiroth had a barrier around him presumably to stop anyone, including the Weapons from getting to him, but again I'm not trying to make a claim that he couldn't have handled them or anything, I don't know.

Sephiroth had a barrier erected around the crater, after the monsters that awoke to stop him at the crater, left the place as soon as they woke up. Either he forced them out, they fled or Sephiroth, Jenova and the Black Materia wasn't a very high priority on their target list. The first is the only thing that makes sense to me.

But then Omega wasn't a terribly efficient operator eitherfrom what you describing, so what do I know.

I still have a hard time believing Cloud could just run in slashing and hope to bring down Omega.

Vincent just ran in shooting and that did the job.

 

[Wolfmania]

I still have a hard time believing Cloud could just run in slashing and hope to bring down Omega. I agree he could probably take Chaos, but it's not necessarily as simple as Cloud beats Chaos, Chaos beats Omega, therefore Cloud beats Omega. As I said before, Chaos might've been the only one to take Omega down.
It's about having the right tool for the job. A sledgehammer is a lot more powerful than a wrench, but if you want to undo a bolt, the sledgehammer isn't going to do you much good.

I honestly can't see why.

DoC Cloud easily cut through It's attack to save Chaos. And Of course keeping up with AC Sephiroth who is transcendent by then.

But I get what you are saying, that Chaos's ability to return both it and Omega to the planet might be essential to It's killing. And that Cloud could destroy It how many times he wanted but It would come back.

However.

You forget Cloud's limits. The Omega Weapon, being a spiritual being, is susceptible to them.

Even if Cloud destroying the consctruct won't kill It; attacking the collected spirits It'self will.

And Cloud's V6 was strong enough to tear of Sephiroth's spirit;; so I doubt it can't handle Omega.

1) Deepground =/= Omega Weapon. The stakes had been raised at that point, and if Cloud could have done more and didn't, he's a moron.

It's not being moronic, It's a combination of trust in Vincent and PIS(plot induced stupidity).

And Omega was part of DG's plan, and by extention; Vincent would handle It.

Heck, It's why Cloud had such low screen-time and the only enemy he fought instantly ran away after a skirmish.

Besides, remember that this is the real Cloud; who in FFVII outright stated that he didn't really care for the planet, that saving It was but a consequence on his actions.

So if Vince told him "Not to worry about It" than he just said: "Meh, go on."

2) See tool analogy above.

I don't think it works exactly like that.

Vincent outright said he didn't have the power to fight Seph, and then told his comrades "don't interfere" as only Cloud could.

It's not like Cloud Is the only one who could do It because he has some inherant advantage to Seph; but It's simply because he's th only one strong enough.

 

[ForceStealer]

What attack did Cloud cut through? Didn't he just cut through the stream Omega was pulling from the reactor?

Vincent outright said he didn't have the power to fight Seph

When did he say that? He just said that Cloud "can handle this alone."

Vincent just ran in shooting and that did the job.

Well, what actually seemed to do the job is Chaos' self-destruction or whatever happened.

 

[Roger]

"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud’s hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past."

From the Ultimania translation on this site.

 

[Wolfmania]

What attack did Cloud cut through? Didn't he just cut through the stream Omega was pulling from the reactor?



When did he say that? He just said that Cloud "can handle this alone."



Well, what actually seemed to do the job is Chaos' self-destruction or whatever happened.

1) Hmm, actually I think The Omega Weapon had just sent an attack at Chaos right before Cloud jumped, and he just cut It. Considering It vanished afterwards.

Or he cut one of Omega's mako constructs with running mako energy.

All with one sword.

Either way, it's just to show that slashing can hurt. Chaos was getting slashes by Omega Weiss.

And Cloud's slashes >>>>> than his.

2) Minato covered that

3) Exactly. That was Chaos "touching" Omega's essence and returning both to the planet.

Now Cloud could easily slash/spiritually destroy such with a limit.

 

[OWA-2]

Now I know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Omega is a construct OF the lifestream.

It's job is to COLLECT the lifestream after Chaos killed everyone, and take it to another planet.

It's NOT the lifestream. That notion is nothing short of ridiculous.

We clearly see the Lifestream coming together and forming Omega's body. But if you chose to close your eyes and ignore the FMV, that's not my problem.

Wrong.

Nomura stated It was corrupt due to the method of It's creation. Which was by killing people.

It started to suck lifestream because It's job is to TRANSPORT lifestream to another planet. It was fufilling said job.

Again, It's not the lifestream.

Nope. I'm pretty sure the creators said it was infected because of the Stagnant Lifestream in Nero's body(who merged with Weiss).

And again, Omega's(the original) entire body is formed of all the Lifestream in the planet. That alone is enough to make it the strongest being in the FFVII-verse.

So?

Holy adheres to the will of the planet.

Minerva is the actual manifestation of It.

You really have no clue what you are talking about.

Minerva represents the will of the planet.

Survive?

He outright defied absorption in the lifestream and came back to life in FFVII.

He held the planet's judgement with his will alone.

Sephiroth IS above the lifestream, the CREATOR'S say so themselves. Hell he was going to fully bend It to his will and absorb It.

In AC, his mere presence there corrupted It to the point that without Cloud; the planet would be doomed.

Your last statement makes no sense, the lifestream's embodiment is Minerva; Jenova is a planet-destroying alien.

And yet, Sephiroth needed years of prep-time to do those things, while the planet needed only moments to undo them(look at the Lifestream destroying Meteor, for example).

Just because Sephiroth can, eventually, corrupt the Lifestream, it doesn't make him more powerful than it. After all, Sephiroth is corrupting the Lifestream to use it's power.

An the creators never said Sephiroth is above the Lifestream, WTF! Sephiroth needs the Lifestream to become more powerful.

Oh, gosh. I'm sorry, I didn't know you knew more than the CREATOR'S on they're own series.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII." - http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

"Even after appearing in so many titles, Sephiroth's true power is unknown. It's stated in the official book Reunion Files that the Sephiroth seen in Advent Children has ascended to a new level of existence and is much stronger than before. Though he was defeated, Sephiroth never used the full extent of his powers in the final fight against Cloud, and because of that, his true potential is still unknown. Advent Children producer Yoshinori Kitase has said, Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him." - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past.
" - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/vincent.php

No, that's just the creator's opinion, bro.

The creators don't consider Omega an actual character though, so those quotes don't really mater.
Hell, Jenova itself shouldn't be considered an actual character either, but she/it is part of this tier list anyway.

 

[OWA-2]

Kadaj, Sephiroth, Loz and Yazoo's bodies are entirely composed of Lifestream too.

Yes, but just a small portion of it. Omega's body on the other hand is supposed to be composed of all of it(if the Weapon was summoned correctly).

Omega doesn't need Reactors to be formed, WEAPONS aren't created with Reactors in mind. He just took off into the atmosphere.

AVALANCHE was destroying the Reactors to prevent Omega from absorbing all of the Lifestream, and it worked.

That's so stupid I can't even describe it. The Planet was going to be destroyed because it of it's own accord insisted on waiting in line behind Holy. That's what you believe the threat in FFVII i huh?

You said Sephiroth was holding back the Lifestream. But he was holding back just Holy, something with far less power than the entire Lifestream.
So yeah, Sephiroth isn't as powerful as you make him look like.

No it ain't.

Yes it is. Anyone watching the FMV of Omega being formed, can see it.

What do you mean all the Lifestream it could. THE entire Lifestream can only absorb a certain amount of itself?

It was using the Reactors to absorb/summon the rest of the Lifestream, but it couldn't do it anymore after AVALANCHE destroyed the Reactors. That's what the game show us.
Deal with it.

And he didn't. The Lifestream was under Aerith controls through out end game FFVII through AC.

And...? That wasn't even the point. *facepalm*
The point is, Sephiroth himself knows the Lifestream is above him, and that's why he needs it to become a god, or to move the planet across the universe.
The Lifestream(which is the substance composing 100% of Omega's body) > Sephiroth. Deal with it.

 

[Wolfmania]

We clearly see the Lifestream coming together and forming Omega's body. But if you chose to close your eyes and ignore the FMV, that's not my problem.

Yes, BECAUSE IT IS A MAKO CONSTRUCT.

Like all other weapons, It's formed from condensed lifestream, It's not the lifestream you fool.

Try again?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the creators said it was infected because of the Stagnant Lifestream in Nero's body(who merged with Weiss).

And again, Omega's(the original) entire body is formed of all the Lifestream in the planet. That alone is enough to make it the strongest being in the FFVII-verse.

No, they said It was corrupted because of It's creation.

Omega is formed from mako, but It is meant to CARRY the lifestream.

Why do you think It's formed for Chaos to kill everything, so It can take the lifestream elsewere?

It takes the Lifestream and flys off into sapce, it's not THE lifestream.

And yes, please, let's ignore how Chaos defeated It, yet stated himself It could do jack-shit to Sephiroth in AC.

Minerva represents the will of the planet.

Which is the will of the Lifestream.

Is that so hard for you to understand? She's even called the Goddess of the planet, why do you even think that is?

And yet, Sephiroth needed years of prep-time to do those things, while the planet needed only moments to undo them(look at the Lifestream destroying Meteor, for example).

Just because Sephiroth can, eventually, corrupt the Lifestream, it doesn't make him more powerful than it. After all, Sephiroth is corrupting the Lifestream to use it's power.

An the creators never said Sephiroth is above the Lifestream, WTF! Sephiroth needs the Lifestream to become more powerful.

Sephiroth is already above It, having It would be a nice boost in strenght however, especially with Cloud running around.

And what's so hard to understand that the lifestream can only try and stop him after Cloud defeats him.

You never noticed that huh?

Without Cloud, the planet would be Sephiroth's a long time ago.

Yea, The Lifestream sure can deal with the threat alone.

The creators don't consider Omega an actual character though, so those quotes don't really mater.
Hell, Jenova itself shouldn't be considered an actual character either, but she/it is part of this tier list anyway.

"Even after appearing in so many titles, Sephiroth's true power is unknown. It's stated in the official book Reunion Files that the Sephiroth seen in Advent Children has ascended to a new level of existence and is much stronger than before. Though he was defeated, Sephiroth never used the full extent of his powers in the final fight against Cloud, and because of that, his true potential is still unknown. Advent Children producer Yoshinori Kitase has said, Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him." - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

So, try again?

 

[Roger]

We clearly see the Lifestream coming together and forming Omega's body. But if you chose to close your eyes and ignore the FMV, that's not my problem.

I can see Omega being formed from Mako, for it to contain the entire Planet's worth of mako, it'd expect it to be a few million times bigger.

Minerva represents the will of the planet.

Expect when she doesn't exist yet i.e. everything before CC. Making her all but a non-entity.

And yet, Sephiroth needed years of prep-time to do those things, while the planet needed only moments to undo them(look at the Lifestream destroying Meteor, for example).

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise CLOUD was considered a sub-entity of the planet in this.

CLOUD defeated Sephiroth after Sephiroth was almost done doing his things. Twice. The lifestream only ever mattered as a tool for Aerith to do the gruntwork of getting rid of Sephiroth last casting and healing people infected with Geostigma.

Just because Sephiroth can, eventually, corrupt the Lifestream, it doesn't make him more powerful than it. After all, Sephiroth is corrupting the Lifestream to use it's power.

Sephiroth attacked the Lifestream, which knows and recognises Sephiroth as an enemy and bends it to it's will. Just because it doesn't happen overnight doesn't mean Sephiroth wasn't still entirely victorious over the lifestream straight up.

An the creators never said Sephiroth is above the Lifestream, WTF! Sephiroth needs the Lifestream to become more powerful.

I'm not saying the lifestream doesn't offer even more power for Sephiroth. But the Lifestream is helpless to stop Sephiroth, however much it tries. Cloud ain't.

The creators don't consider Omega an actual character though, so those quotes don't really mater.
Hell, Jenova itself shouldn't be considered an actual character either, but she/it is part of this tier list anyway.

Why not?!

You said Sephiroth was holding back the Lifestream. But he was holding back just Holy, something with far less power than the entire Lifestream.
So yeah, Sephiroth isn't as powerful as you make him look like.

Not an answer to what I was saying. You are saying that everything that happened in the game didn't matter in the slightest. The Lifestream would've come along anyway. Cloud should have listened to his better judgement at the start of the game and focused on getting rich.

It was using the Reactors to absorb/summon the rest of the Lifestream, but it couldn't do it anymore after AVALANCHE destroyed the Reactors. That's what the game show us.
Deal with it.

Again throwing out a random statement that in no way addresses what I was saying.

And...? That wasn't even the point. *facepalm*
The point is, Sephiroth himself knows the Lifestream is above him, and that's why he needs it to become a god, or to move the planet across the universe.

2 needs 1 to be 3, that doesn't mean 1>2, it just means that put together 1+2>2.

Should I simplify even further?

The Lifestream(which is the substance composing 100% of Omega's body) > Sephiroth. Deal with it.

Sephiroth has made the Lifestream his personal bitch everytime he wanted too.

The Lifestream is Cloud's Princess Zelda if you will. So sorry.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'd agree that the totality of the Lifestream probably possesses more outright power than Seph, even if his will is able to bend the Lifestream over time. While Seph can conquer the Lifestream and consume it, as evidenced by the existence of the Negative Lifestream, he likely couldn't conquer all of it in a single moment.

Seems to me that his plan to use geostigma even suggests this. He's conquering portions of the Lifestream, one at a time, until he's converted enough of it to challege the remaining pure Lifestream.

He'd definitely have succeeded given time, but if we're just measuring power on a scale, I don't think it's reasonable to say Seph is greater than the Lifestream. He would have been, but wasn't there yet.

On the matter of Omega's strength, it's difficult to speculate. Even if he succeeded in absorbing the entire Lifestream, we don't know that he would have actually used more than a certain portion as power in combat. It may well be that Omega itself is programmed to only use a certain amount while transporting the rest.

I agree, though, that if Omega were allowed to absorb all of the Lifestream and could also use anything it had absorbed, it would be the most powerful entity.

Finally, a slight clarification on what Vince said about himself relative to Seph in AC/C. His 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile says he believes that only Cloud has the power to beat him, but I think what's causing confusion here is the claim that Vincent outright said that only Cloud could do it.

The claim isn't wrong that Vince didn't think he could do it. He just didn't say that out loud.

 

[Wolfmania]

The Lifestream is powerless against Sephiroth.

Do what It might, It just can't defeat the beign, all It could od alone, is stand there and wait for Sephiroth to overpower It.

It's not more powerful than Sephiroth, It can't destroy Sephiroth.

It needs Cloud, and Cloud alone is the one whose displayed enough power to challenge Sephiroth not only physicaly but spiritually.

Without Cloud; the Lifestream is doomed.

It happened twice already; and in the end, if Cloud was not there, Sephiroth would've been triumphant on both occasions.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth can't conquer the Lifestream in single moment, the fight would last a while. The Lfestream cannot defeat Sephiroth in a hundred years, not matter how much power Sephiroth has lost.
That tells me that Sephiroth>Lifestream, even if it's not an easy win for Sephiroth.

And Sephiroth HAD won in AC. The Negative Lifestream he had generated was enveloping the Planet and they were ready to go planetbuster, when Sephiroth fought Cloud.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Lifestream is powerless against Sephiroth.

Do what It might, It just can't defeat the beign, all It could od alone, is stand there and wait for Sephiroth to overpower It.

It's not more powerful than Sephiroth, It can't destroy Sephiroth.

That doesn't speak to the matter, though, of which possesses the greater raw magical output. The Lifestream certainly possessed more power during FFVII (Seph had to absorb tons of energy from it for a long period of time just to cast Meteor, and the goal of his plan was to ascend to godhood by gaining the Lifestream's power), and probably during AC/C as well.

If you shoved the whole Lifestream into the Sister Ray and fired it, I feel confident you'd get a more destructive blast than if you put Seph in a blender and then shoved him in there.

What you're speaking to is a matter of willpower.

It needs Cloud, and Cloud alone is the one whose displayed enough power to challenge Sephiroth not only physicaly but spiritually.

Spiritually?

Sephiroth can't conquer the Lifestream in single moment, the fight would last a while. The Lfestream cannot defeat Sephiroth in a hundred years, not matter how much power Sephiroth has lost.
That tells me that Sephiroth>Lifestream, even if it's not an easy win for Sephiroth.

How do you know the Lifestream couldn't defeat Seph, no matter how much power he's lost? As far as we know, that's what happened to him at the end of AC/C. Otherwise, there's no reason the construction of the Negative Lifestream should have ended, and no reason the effects of geostigma should have ended in those with JENOVA's cells.

He barely escaped the Lifestream the time before that. He seems plenty beatable to me.

And Sephiroth HAD won in AC. The Negative Lifestream he had generated was enveloping the Planet and they were ready to go planetbuster, when Sephiroth fought Cloud.

I don't think we were ever given an indication of how far along Seph's conversion of the Lifestream was. He only covered Midgar with the Negative Lifestream after all.

Not disagreeing with your point that he'd effectively already won, nor that he likely would have gone on to secure an easy victory if he hadn't lost to Cloud. Just questioning that particular claim.

 

[Wolfmania]

That doesn't speak to the matter, though, of which possesses the greater raw magical output. The Lifestream certainly possessed more power during FFVII (Seph had to absorb tons of energy from it for a long period of time just to cast Meteor, and the goal of his plan was to ascend to godhood by gaining the Lifestream's power), and probably during AC/C as well.

Raw power isn't why Sephiroth is stronger, most of Sephiroth's power comes from, his spirit/will It'self.

A force powerfull enough to reject the lifestream's system, dominate It, and hold back Holy, which has enough force to cleanse the entire planet.

If you shoved the whole Lifestream into the Sister Ray and fired it, I feel confident you'd get a more destructive blast than if you put Seph in a blender and then shoved him in there.

Are you sure about that?

Have you even imagined how powerful Sephiroth's soul is?

I'll repeat, It's strong enough to outright defy the lifestream's pull and hold back the planet's divine judgement.

Sephiroth himself was going to subjulgate the entire thing after meteor gathered the lifestream.

That and the fact the lifestream is completely unable to do anything against the corruption caused by Sephiroth's soul, tell me his existance is certainly above the lifestream; as teh creator's quotes tell us.

Spiritually?

Yes. In the end of FFVII, Sephiroth pulled Cloud's spiritual body into the lifestream where they had a fianl 1-on-1.

Cloud defeated Sephiroth that day in a spiritual battle; inflicting grave wounds on him.

How do you know the Lifestream couldn't defeat Seph, no matter how much power he's lost? As far as we know, that's what happened to him at the end of AC/C. Otherwise, there's no reason the construction of the Negative Lifestream should have ended, and no reason the effects of geostigma should have ended in those with JENOVA's cells.

He barely escaped the Lifestream the time before that. He seems plenty beatable to me.

You're missing the fatal point.

Cloud defeated him spiritually both at the end of FFVII and at the end of AC/C.

It's the reason Holy was still being restrained even after his physical body was killed, his soul lived in the lifestream.

Cloud entered astral form, somehow, and defeated him in a spiritual battle.

Hence Holy commenced movement.

In AC/C Cloud attacked him spiritualy with a V6, you can even see his soul being torn off at each strike. Otherwise he would've just continued to use the Negative Lifestream from the afterlife; but since he just got his spirituall ass kicked again, he was most likely too weak to do It.

The Lifestream can't challange Sephiroth's spirit, can't eliminate It for as hard as It tried in FFVII and AC/C.

Cloud has to personally kick his spiritual power off, so that the planet can act.

 

[Roger]

That doesn't speak to the matter, though, of which possesses the greater raw magical output. The Lifestream certainly possessed more power during FFVII (Seph had to absorb tons of energy from it for a long period of time just to cast Meteor, and the goal of his plan was to ascend to godhood by gaining the Lifestream's power), and probably during AC/C as well.

Sephiroth cast Meteor as soon as he gained the Black Materia.

If you shoved the whole Lifestream into the Sister Ray and fired it, I feel confident you'd get a more destructive blast than if you put Seph in a blender and then shoved him in there.

Sephiroth was gonna destroy the whole Planet, then shoot through the galaxy.

What you're speaking to is a matter of willpower.

Which is really really REALLY important in determing who is stronger. The Lifestream was absolutely useless until Aerith came along to guide it. And Sephiroth can slowly force the Lifestream the bend to his dominion just by force of his will. Willpower is everything.

If we gave everybody the absolute will of Sephiroth to go along with their abilities in this list it would look differently. But they don't. Sephiroth is at the top because his willpower allows him to do stuff none of the others can. The Lifestream, Omega, Chaos, Jenova and Minerva are in no way an exception to that. Whether he was corporeal or not, eventually he'd defeat them all.

How do you know the Lifestream couldn't defeat Seph, no matter how much power he's lost? As far as we know, that's what happened to him at the end of AC/C. Otherwise, there's no reason the construction of the Negative Lifestream should have ended, and no reason the effects of geostigma should have ended in those with JENOVA's cells.

He stopped after Cloud destroyed him, but I'll bet you anything he'll be back. Where will he have been, the lifestream. Who failed to destroy him yet again after Cloud sent him back.

He barely escaped the Lifestream the time before that. He seems ple
nty beatable to me.

Escaped the Lifestream? What are you talking about? He was IN the Lifestream.

I don't think we were ever given an indication of how far along Seph's conversion of the Lifestream was. He only covered Midgar with the Negative Lifestream after all.

It was just as dark over Edge a few miles away and I didn't see an end to it. Either way, he was summoning his Negative lifestream out of the ground up the surface, what exactly did you think he was doing, making sure Aerith's flowers weren't getting sunshine?

 

[Wolfmania]

He covered Midgar in his Lifestream so Cloud's friends wouldn't interfere in they're battle.

Either way, Willpower/soul is EXTREMELY relevant when talking about power relations in FFVII, It's practically the most prominent power-source aside from Jenova's Cells.

Heck, Aerith's soul was terrified of even coming near Sephiroth in the lifestream.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Sephiroth cast Meteor as soon as he gained the Black Materia.

?

It is established pretty much as soon as you arrive at the NC that Sephiroth plans to use the immense amount of spirit energy swirling around the Crater to summon Meteor.

"It collapses and dies. Cloud runs through the tunnel and runs into a two-headed dragon. After defeating it, Cloud and the others continue through the tunnel and reach the top of Gaea's Cliffs. They look over the edge at the Planet's wound and then start down.
Cloud
An old crater...
Something fell out of the sky and crashed down here......
Leaving a scar on the planet.
Tifa
So the planet has gathered all this energy here to heal itself?
Nanaki
The energy of the planet is concentrated here.
It is slowly healing its old wound.
Yuffie
Even I know what's going on. The energy's bein' gathered here to heal the gash.
Cait Sith
It's trying to heal its wound by gathering all that energy here.
Vincent
It's amassed a vast amount of energy to heal itself.
Cloud
Sephiroth took that energy and is trying to use Meteor.
Next time the wound won't be so small.
They continue down the crater's slope."

 

[Roger]

Point taken, forgot the first part of that conversation. I thought the lifestream was basically done with the repairs which is why Sephiroth needed make a brandnew hole.

 

[Wolfmania]

Honestly, am I blind, because I don't see how that implies he's using the energy to use meteor.

Cloud stated Sephiroth took that energy.

Yes, we know he did, using the energy of the crater, along with Jenova's head, was his way of creating a brand new stronger body.

He then said Sephiroth is trying to use meteor.

Yes, he was, but he couldn't not because of not absorbing said energy, but because he didn't have the black materia.

I don't see how that establishes he's using said energy to summon meteor; I always thought the reunion took place in the crater because that was the place where it would be easier to reform, given all the energy there.

 

[Wolfmania]

Point taken, forgot the first part of that conversation. I thought the lifestream was basically done with the repairs which is why Sephiroth needed make a brandnew hole.

IIRC, that's actually what I always thought, given Ifalna's conversation with Gast

She says the wound healed It'self over time.

It's obvious that in FFVII It wasn't fully healed yet, I mean, the wound was still there(the massive crater); but It's implied that It is almost done.

Which would be why Sephiroth needs another huge crater to gather the lifestream for him so he can subjulgate It.

 

[Lord Noctis]

The way its said clearly implies Sephiroth was using the energy for Meteor. Aerith herself states that one persons Spirit Energy would be inssuficient to use Meteor.

Aeris
That's right.
One person's power alone won't do it.
Somewhere special. Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy...
Oh yeah!
The Promised Land!!
Cloud
The Promised Land!!
No, but...
Aeris
Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.
Cloud
He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.
Sephiroth appears hovering above the hole.
Sephiroth
...Ah, but I have.
I'm far superior to the Ancients.
I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.




Those quotes, coupled with Cloud's quote when entering the NC clearly indicate that Sephiroth needed the vast energy there to use Meteor.