What do you think about Cloud?

[Seunia]

I´d like to know what do you think about our well-known hero, Cloud. This thread is about the "real" Cloud (BC, CC, FFVII - end of disc 2, disc 3 and Final Fantasies after that) so keep that in mind.

Here´s what I think: Cloud is often not using words while he wants to express something. Rather than that, he speaks with his actions. But he keeps a lot of his feelings to himself. That´s his problem . On the other hand, he values his friends more than anything else and he would never let them down. He stays calm no matter what happens and maybe because of that he´s so good at fighting . He was so cute when he figured out who he really is. He was joking and laughing with others......he was so happy

 

[Octo]

I certainly liked him more when he'd sorted his shit out and found his real self. Much of the time up until that point I sort of ignored his character, because he was a bit arrogant and full of himself.

This is what made it so annoying to find him moping about in AC, the more I think about it the more irritating it becomes. Tifa helped him find himself in the lifestream, they worked through it together. She didn't judge him or blame him for acting the way he did prior to that. They destroy Sephiroth and come to terms with Aeriths death.

And then Cloud gets sick (before he even knows about Kadaj & Co!) hes just sick, and yet he cant tell anyone? No Sir, I don't like it.

I haven't played Dirge or any of the KH series to comment on Clouds personality in those, I just wish SE would let the guy be himself for once ;/

 

[Elisa Maza]

I think I'll go with Cloud as a Compilation character, even thought the OG personna is not THAT much different, IMO.

As a kid and as a teen, he was the awkward, shy and introverted one, got violent easily to prove his strength, kinda stupid, but what kid isn't. He takes things waaaaaay too seriously and thus, his failures depress him easily, too.

In CC, he was the kid, the young one, the greenhorn that was still awkward, but had the hero potential.

His ACC persona didn't look too OOC to me when I considered that he had a similar reaction to something he felt responsible for in his childhood. When he failed to catch Tifa on the bridge, he blamed himself and lead a rather self-destructive path of being a bully and fighting all the time. When he started blaming himself again in CoT/ACC, he became isolated and when he got infested with AIDS Geostigma, he left. That sounded so Cloud.

In the OG, I cannot help to take account his f*cked up persona too, because you can understand how Cloud also viewed some things, like heroism, worth and values. He's supposed to act like a young Dante (DMC3) in terms of personality, while he was a Simon (Gurren Lagann). He longed to be the badass protagonist, while in reality, he was the boy-sidekick. CC did a good job to illustrate that difference in comparison to the OG, IMO.

Also, in the OG, I didn't get much character development for Cloud, as much as character presentation and (re) discovery. The 1st Disk Cloud was a poser, a supposed hardass, aloof and cocky, while the real, Disk 2 and 3 Cloud is shy, VERY emotional and socially crippled. I found his persona consistent to that in ACC, since in the OG, he found his original self, which was a far cry from hero material, but the story gave him little to work on his real self. I think that he got character development in ACC, mostly, where his real personality was challenged to be developed for him to become a better person.

What the real Cloud learned in the OG was that his biggest strength was to admit his weakness. What he learned in ACC was he could use whatever strength he had, as long as he let others in to support him and he would be successful in what he aimed to be.

Cloud alone is a Cloud depressed, weak, taking wrong decisions and lonely (Nojima said that during his days with Geostigma in the church he was lonely), Cloud with support can do anything. That didn't change throughout the Compilation for me.

And this is why I love Cloud as a character, Compilation or not. He's deeply flawed, some of said flaws may never go away, he's damaged, but he has to keep going.

And sometimes, I find the creators' decision to keep Cloud alive at the end of the OG more cruel than kill him along with all humanity with the Lifestream and let them rest. Sometimes.

 

[Roger]

Disc 2 Cloud? I thought he was cheerful, upbeat, confident and sociable. Cloud was the guy that reached out to Yuffie when she unloading his stomach contents on the airship, Cloud was the member of AVALANCHE that Cait Sith was the least able to beat down with his words about the attacks on the Mako Reactors, Cloud was the one telling Tifa "he'd be loud enough for everybody" when they were facing the prospect of continueing the journey with just the two of them, Cloud defied Sephiroth the most valiantly when he finally showed his true strength and things seemed hopeless.

Tifa needed to confront Cloud with his past and help him overcome it, if he ever were to become strong enough to deal with Mako Poisoning. Cloud learned his lesson and had become all the more strong as because of it.

Until AC that is.

And I love AC and CC, and the character of Cloud they present in and of itself, defended them many times but at the end of the day, I really felt the point of Clouds character arc in FFVII was that he had become stronger then being plagued by insecurities and selfdoubts as he used to be and is in AC, or for that matter, people as screwed as Cloud emotionally wouldn't be able to join SOLDIER, yet there's Genesis and Angeal, the former motivated by an extremely petty desire to replace Sephiroth as the hero, the latters whole world gets the destroyed when his friend turns on him and ultimately commits suicide.

Compare that with Zack and Sephiroth, who yeah eventually got pretty screwed up but throughout most of Crisis Core were able to function in spite of everything they learned and the betrayals they suffered. THAT'S what SOLDIER should be about.

 

[Masamune]

Cloud has been popularised as something of a brooding loner when that certainly isn't the case. Cloud's true personality is somewhat dorky, perhaps slightly introverted, but at least he was able to have an adult conversation with people. Of course, Cloud was flawed, his entire character arc focused on his anti-heroism and how he ultimately overcomes the ghosts of his past to become a leader and a hero.

Most of the fangirls who love Cloud nowadays are ones who watched AC before they even played the original game, which tells you just what sorta demographic Squenix were looking for when they decided to rewire his character. Then they had the nerve to say that's how most fans of the OG identified with him.

It's not like the Compilation stopped with Cloud, practically most of the main characters have been flanderized in some way, shape or form. By ruining Cloud's character, they naturally ruined Tifa's, as well, and turned her into a naggy housewife (with crap hair).

I've yet to read any convincing argument for the bastardization of his character in AC. Most of the arguments come down to 'Cloud's got issues'. Well yeah, and I spent 40+hrs helping him overcome those issues, now you want me to start pitying him again? We all know they just repackaged his character arc from the OG and stuck a new label on it.

I haven't played Dirge or any of the KH series to comment on Clouds personality in those, I just wish SE would let the guy be himself for once ;/

He's only in Dirge for about five seconds, so there's not a lot to go on. In KH (mostly KH2+), he's moping around lookin' super-serios, intoning about how he's no good to anyone etc, falling into darkness etc. You know, the Cloud we know and love.

 

[Alex Strife]

I may be wrong but in Dirge he seemed a bit more confident. Perhaps not cocky, but definitely confident?

I'm just hoping that the final sequel they're supposed (hopefully?) to do will feature Cloud as a "complete" character, once and for all, during a good part of the game if not all.

 

[Tifabelle]

Disc 2 Cloud? I thought he was cheerful, upbeat, confident and sociable.

........ >.>

It's true that Cloud may have become more social (or at least communicated with less of a cold shoulder), but I don't think cheerful and upbeat would describe him. Confident, perhaps, but I think he still exhibited doubts. Look at his speech when he comes back. It's sort of contradictory. He embraces his leadership role while at the same time questioning himself.

He was more determined at the very least. Very goal-oriented. I do think he retained some of his awkwardness from his youth (struggling to communicate with Tifa, etc).

I do agree with Masamune that "brooding loner" has become confused with introverted and awkward. He's not Squall. He's Cloud. And they're VERY different. Cloud wasn't afraid to rely on his comrades, even invoking their help should he revert back. He accepted everyone into the party no matter how wacky they were

In AC he does separate himself, but it's only because he doesn't want to hurt anyone (however idiodic that move was). I don't think they necessarily ~ruined~ his character in AC, just that they exaggerated certain bits of his personality. I liked AC Cloud because it shows him being affected by events but overcoming his own issues. For the record, I don't think it's ~that~ big of a deal to have a character revert after having time to reflect on what happened. I mean, after talking with Vincent, Cloud shows that determination and strength and leadership that we saw from him at the end of FFVII. And if you didn't see it, then you weren't watching the movie.

And this carries over in DoC, believe it or not. Okay we don't see much of him, but he's again determined and badass. YEAH THAT CLIP OF HIM SAYING "LET'S GO FENRIR" IS AWESOME, OK. And in the sound clips of him on the phone with Vincent, he's soft-spoken but confident. Which to me nails exactly who post-mindfuck Cloud is.

I have more a problem with his character in Dissidia. I was kind of confused by it, tbh. Sort of on the fence about him. I liked him much better in 012, since this seemed more in line with who he was (especially at that stage of development in his character). I remember seeing that clip of Cloud before 012 came out and thinking THAT'S VII CLOUD RIGHT THERE! Although in the actual game we saw very little of him, I do think he was a bit closer to VII Cloud than in the first game.

Now as for CC Cloud, amg don't judge me, but I loved awkward little Cloud. This is before all the bullshit happened and he was such an adorable mess. And (even though this was shown in VII also), we see that first inkling of hero!Cloud in Nibelheim in the reactor. And so even though he's introverted and awkward, he still has a hidden resource of strength and determination. That's all I can say about him in CC. (And I do recall them saying he had a more natural talent with sword than gun which is why his power seemed sudden.)

Overall, because Cloud is introverted (but lacks internal monologue we get with Squall), so his personality tends to be subtle. But if you look for it, it's there. Even in DoC


EDIT: Oh and just to add. About those people that see Cloud as a "brooding loner" or "emo" or w/e the hell they say, if it's not solely based on AC Cloud, they probably take it from pre-Lifestream Cloud. Which they forget or don't realize is not entirely Cloud.

 

[Roger]

It's true that Cloud may have become more social (or at least communicated with less of a cold shoulder), but I don't think cheerful and upbeat would describe him.

Well, MORE upbeat then the rest of the world was at the time. I mean, the world was still ending and everything.

And i really, really can't attribute that to just being determined or goaloriented, those are things he was in abundance even before he fell in the Lifestream.

. I liked AC Cloud because it shows him being affected by events but overcoming his own issues.

Meaning he hadn't overcome his issues before AC, so Tifa and Cloud didn't accomplish what we were led to believe in the Lifestream. Yet Cloud, every bit the nervous wreck that he was when he was rejected from entering SOLDIER, still overcomes his Mako Poisoning.

I'm sorry, I get why people like AC/OTWTAS for having a character realistically deal with loss but Cloud is one character they had already, really, really committed to having overcome his past issues. The whole in universe science does not allow for him to be able walk around while still being angsty. Anywhere but in FFVII it would have been fine.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, looking at it from a narrative viewpoint, one of the main story arcs in the original game was Cloud's character development; he is the protagonist, and like any interesting protagonist, his character develops and he learns more about himself through his struggles to resolve the conflict. ACC seemed to me like an attempt to replicate the development of that arc, ie, Cloud starts off being not his true self (in the OG, his self is literally scrambled; in ACC, he's depressed and has cut himself off from people) and then, through engaging in conflict with the antagonist(s) and drawing on the help of his friends - the very people he'd cut himself off from - he rediscovers his true self and is 'healed'.

I don't actually have such a big problem with Cloud in ACC. If you can accept that he's depressed (and wouldn't you get depressed if you'd been through everything he's been through, and then caught Geostigma?) the rest of his behaviour is fairly typical of people suffering depression. In fact, Geostigma seems to be a kind of metaphor for depression: its black blotches, the way it eats you from the inside out, the isolation it causes, and the fact that, according to Case of Shinra, it only takes hold in people who despair. (I don't quite understand how this works with Rufus, who has a winner's mentality if anybody does - "Bring it on. We'll beat you every time." - but never mind) Psychologically, the ideas are quite acute. The execution, though, is another matter.

 

[Lumina]

Ok, so I will talk this as Cloud "In the movie" a little Dissidia since I don't remember that much of Cloud from the Game and his story is a little fuzzy for me...
I just...didn't liked him that much. I don't know he just seem to me kind of the "Bunch" or something like that. In the movie yeah, he was cute and was the hero but he wasn't the type of guy whom I'll go crazy about. But I give him 10 when he closed the door on Reno's face (I died on that one lolz). I just think that there were more interesting characters than Cloud.
But then again...that's just me.

 

[Masamune]

I don't actually have such a big problem with Cloud in ACC. If you can accept that he's depressed (and wouldn't you get depressed if you'd been through everything he's been through, and then caught Geostigma?) the rest of his behaviour is fairly typical of people suffering depression. In fact, Geostigma seems to be a kind of metaphor for depression: its black blotches, the way it eats you from the inside out, the isolation it causes, and the fact that, according to Case of Shinra, it only takes hold in people who despair. (I don't quite understand how this works with Rufus, who has a winner's mentality if anybody does - "Bring it on. We'll beat you every time." - but never mind) Psychologically, the ideas are quite acute. The execution, though, is another matter.

Isn't that the point? There was no need to play the sick card on Cloud in the first place. They just wanted a sloppy plot device to make his character come full circle after FFVII. Actually, I take that back, because Cloud was never as weak-willed and depressing as he was in AC. The only time he really came close was during Sephiroth's mindraep. Which I reckon is just cause.

I have no objection to Cloud having emotional baggage regarding Aerith/Zack/whatever, but it shouldn't be the axis of his character in AC, if it causes him to become a candy ass. And definitely no excuse for that shit in KH2.

 

[Tifabelle]

But wasn't it Cloud's weak will (etc) that made him succumb to the mako in the first place? Actually twice: when trying for SOLDIER and then as an experiment.

Cloud wasn't a candy ass in AC/C. He kicked everyone's ass when the time came for it. I won't even discuss KH Although KH Cloud is not "real Cloud" (read: Compilation Cloud) and instead AU Cloud. He can't be judged on it, but I bet contributes to why people confuse Compilation Cloud's personality.

 

[Terrafig]

I'll admit, I know almost zero about compilation and Ultimania-related insights, but I don't know how anyone could possibly conclude that Cloud is weak-willed from the original game. I'm also not sure what you mean by "succumb to mako."

Cloud's will is strong. He shrugs off Jenova's influence (albeit inconsistently) when almost no one else possessing her cells is capable. The fact that he snaps out of the mind control business rather than killing Aeris suggests that a weak will is very unlikely, even during the time when Zack's memory was confusing him. Even the period after handing the black materia over to Sephiroth which is, arguably, his lowest point, Cloud manages to fight his way back to himself, with Tifa's help, and keep on trucking as soon as he emerges from the Lifestream. That's some intense shit.

 

[Roger]

But wasn't it Cloud's weak will (etc) that made him succumb to the mako in the first place? Actually twice: when trying for SOLDIER and then as an experiment.

Yeah, you may have noticed that when Zack freed him, he stayed mako poisoned for a year, in FFVII, he bounced back in a week. Instantly after the second time he fell in the Lifestream. Cause Tifa made him confront and accept everything about his past.


Again, until AC where Cloud is a hundred billion times more down on himself then even CC Cloud ever was.

 

[Tifabelle]

in FFVII, he bounced back in a week. Instantly after the second time he fell in the Lifestream.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here. The "bounced back in a week" is after turning up in Mideel? And the second time being his fight with Sephiroth?

Arguably in FFVII Cloud was still under the influence of the mako poisoning/Jenova experimentation up until the Lifestream sequence with Tifa. When Tifa found him in the train station, he was still fucked up until the Jenova cells reacted to her.

And I think everyone gets too up in arms about his AC appearance a bit. I mean, that took place over like 3 days or something. He was gone from 7th Heaven for maybe 2 weeks. Prior to that (according to CoT), he seemed pretty ok with shit.

As for the "succumbing to mako", I forget the exact wording, but Cloud failed to make it into SOLDIER because he lacked the mental fortitude to withstand the mako treatments.

 

[Masamune]

But wasn't it Cloud's weak will (etc) that made him succumb to the mako in the first place? Actually twice: when trying for SOLDIER and then as an experiment.

We're talking about the Cloud who became a hero, destroyed his mortal enemy, and saved the world. That's the man he became after facing up to his past and accepting who he was. That's character development.

Also, AFAIK, it was never established that wannabe SOLDIERS are exposed to Mako to test their mental strength.

Cloud wasn't a candy ass in AC/C. He kicked everyone's ass when the time came for it.

Yes, he was. He screwed with his family & friends, wouldn't take responsibility for anything (like asking the Turks to save the kids), and kept blabbering about how he was a no-good piece of shit. Yes, he stood up in the end, but the damage to his character had already been done.

I won't even discuss KH Although KH Cloud is not "real Cloud" (read: Compilation Cloud) and instead AU Cloud. He can't be judged on it, but I bet contributes to why people confuse Compilation Cloud's personality.

While it's not canonically the real Cloud, he still has the super-serios, pop culture personality that I'm talking about, which makes it a perfectly valid point of reference in regards to Cloud's flanderization.

 

[Tifabelle]

We're talking about the Cloud who became a hero, destroyed his mortal enemy, and saved the world. That's the man he became after facing up to his past and accepting who he was. That's character development.

Yes, he changed. But you have to take AC with a grain of salt. He was someone else for a while there, remembered who he was. Prior to AC, he had time to actually reflect on this and really remember who he was and how he got there. It's a little regression. I'm not saying I'm excusing it, but it's not like they completely threw the book out the window, so to speak.

Also, AFAIK, it was never established that wannabe SOLDIERS are exposed to Mako to test their mental strength.

No, no. I'm sorry. I mean, the mako was to make them physically stronger, yes. But the mako showering required them to have mental fortitude in order to undergo it successfully. iirc

Yes, he was. He screwed with his family & friends, wouldn't take responsibility for anything (like asking the Turks to save the kids), and kept blabbering about how he was a no-good piece of shit. Yes, he stood up in the end, but the damage to his character had already been done.

Ok. I mean, while that's true, he didn't "screw" with everyone. His problem was that he thought they were all better off without him. I agree that it's a piss-poor excuse and even dumber plot point, but it's fair enough. (I don't think it's unusual for someone to think "so-and-so can find a better boyfriend/girlfriend than me.) I will agree that his "fear of not being able to save someone" (while we can follow the thought processof why he would think that) is contradictory to how he acts at the end of FFVII, where he goes ahead and fights Sephiroth.

While it's not canonically the real Cloud, he still has the super-serios, pop culture personality that I'm talking about, which makes it a perfectly valid point of reference in regards to Cloud's flanderization.

Definitely.The problem is that fans of FFVII can make the distinction, while others can't.

 

[Terrafig]

Minato Arisato, I'm not sure what you're saying either. Perhaps some clarification would be useful?

Arguably in FFVII Cloud was still under the influence of the mako poisoning/Jenova experimentation up until the Lifestream sequence with Tifa. When Tifa found him in the train station, he was still fucked up until the Jenova cells reacted to her.

I'm not clear on this either. I know he was messed up, but how did he get to the train station if he wasn't already recovering? I'm not sure what mako poisoning has to do with a strong will, especially if it completely messes him up, and he's still able to crawl back despite it. I'd say that's more a testament to strong will than a mark against it.

And I think everyone gets too up in arms about his AC appearance a bit.

It just bugs me because, like others have said, rehashing Cloud's emotional development is a really cheap thing to do, and I expected more.

As for the "succumbing to mako", I forget the exact wording, but Cloud failed to make it into SOLDIER because he lacked the mental fortitude to withstand the mako treatments.

Ah, so that's what you mean. I have a few quibbles with this.

1) I don't trust Shinra to deliver information on what actually was the problem with Cloud's acceptance into the SOLDIER program. By all accounts, he acts like he could have been in SOLDIER all through the OG, which leads me to believe that there was some kind of reaction they couldn't explain, rather than just taking their word for it. They put it under that heading rather than saying "It doesn't work, and we can't figure out why."

2) Is there necessary correlation between "strong will" and "this shit will fuck you up for a while"?

3) Even without the first two points, Final Fantasy VII is a subversion and invalidation of Shinra's expectations in this case if I've ever seen one.

 

[Roger]

Yes, I was talking about the Lifestream sequence off course.

I'll clarify then for you Terrafig.

Prior to FFVII Cloud was not deemed fit to be admitted into SOLDIER. Physically he was a tank without question but he had all these doubts and insecurities that you just can't have otherwise the makotreatment will **** you up.

Well, Hojo obviously did the Mako treatment anyway and Shinra turned out to be right, Cloud couldn't handle the treatment and he was left in the Mako chamber to die. Then Zack busted him out. Throughout the entire next year Zack carried Cloud around the world whilst Cloud was Mako Poisoned, then Zack died. Cloud then took the sword and walked/crawled to Midgar where he collapsed again. Then Tifa found him and he got right back up.

This was not Cloud getting better. This was the Jenova cells inside him taking matters into their own hands and creating, based on the stories that Zack had been telling Cloud the entire preceding years, Cloud's own desires of who he wanted be and Tifa's memories of the loner, likes-to-fight-a-lot Cloud as she perceived him when they were growing up, a new persona, one that was able to cope with the Mako. This is the guy we initially play with.

Well, we all know what happened to that guy, he ended up giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, had a mental breakdown and took a nosedive into the Lifestream.

When the party finds Cloud again he's back to being Mako Poisoned. But then Tifa and Cloud take another trip into the Lifestream, uncover Cloud's past, he gets put back together, and when he wakes up he doesn't need fake memories anymore, he doesn't suffer from Mako Poisoning, he's better.

Until, once again, AC by which time he had found a new lowest of low in his life.

 

[Tifabelle]

I'm not clear on this either. I know he was messed up, but how did he get to the train station if he wasn't already recovering? I'm not sure what mako poisoning has to do with a strong will, especially if it completely messes him up, and he's still able to crawl back despite it. I'd say that's more a testament to strong will than a mark against it.

You make a fair point. However this sort of becomes a bit convoluted. Cloud's mind was weak and filled with self-doubt which is why he succumbed to the mako in the first place. Could it have been a bit of his own will peeking through there at the end of CC? Perhaps. He seemed coherent enough to accept the sword and grieve Zack's death. But remember he's under the influence of Jenova cells as well. Was it Cloud that made it to Midgar or was it Jenova-Cloud? Even assuming it was genuinely Cloud, once he made it to the train station, he then succumbed again and didn't recover until Tifa found him and Jenova took over.

It just bugs me because, like others have said, rehashing Cloud's emotional development is a really cheap thing to do, and I expected more.

Fair. But imo, it says more about the writers/developers than it does about Cloud.

1) I don't trust Shinra to deliver information on what actually was the problem with Cloud's acceptance into the SOLDIER program. By all accounts, he acts like he could have been in SOLDIER all through the OG, which leads me to believe that there was some kind of reaction they couldn't explain, rather than just taking their word for it. They put it under that heading rather than saying "It doesn't work, and we can't figure out why."

Cloud wasn't the first one to fail mako-showering. They knew before he went for it that weak minds wouldn't pass through. Cloud was just one of a number of candidates that couldn't take it. The reason Cloud acts as a SOLDIER is because of Jenova, not the mako. Remember, Cloud underwent mako once and failed. Then again (plus Jenova and who knows what else) when Hojo took him and Zack as experiments. Hojo likely didn't know/remember/care that Cloud failed the mako showering the first time; he was solely impressed with this "normal" soldier's ability to take on the overpowered Sephiroth.

Plus, even though within the story it's Shinra documents saying all that, SE confirms it.

3) Even without the first two points, Final Fantasy VII is a subversion and invalidation of Shinra's expectations in this case if I've ever seen one.

The problem with this is: we know the effects of mako. We're told what it will do either positive or negative. We know Cloud underwent it when he tried to enter SOLDIER and he failed. What we don't know is what Hojo did to them after Nibelheim. There could be undefined variables besides just mako and Jenova cells. FFVII post-experiment Cloud =/= mako-showered footsoldier Cloud.


And more or less what Minato said.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't want to get too serious in this discussion, since Cloud is, after all, a fictional character and his creators can do whatever they like with him - and also, I'm not sure exactly what it is we're debating. Do we find his character arc in AC unbelievable? Or just unsatisfactory from a fan point of view? However, taking into account the extreme nature of what he's been through, I think that before we can justifiably describe his character in AC as "screwing" with his friends and "blabbering" about his unworthiness, we too would have to experience the total destruction of our home town at the hands our of idol, four years of torture as a lab rat, the knowledge that our dearest friend had sacrificed himself in order to save our life (and would have probably lived if he'd left us to die) and that another beloved friend had died trying to fix a mission that we'd screwed up, and saved our life - again - in the process, all this combined with the awareness that we'd probably already completed the one useful thing we could do in the world, and that the world was still dying, and we didn't know how to save it.

I don't know the exact symptoms of PTSD but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that Cloud was suffering from this illness (as well as, or symbolised by, Geostigma). In fact, if he was a real person, it'd be a bloody miracle if he wasn't. Having one's own life saved at the cost of others can often induce survivor guilt, and it's easy to see why Cloud would think that Zack's life and Aerith's life were worth more than his; that he should have died, and they should have lived. What I'm saying, basically, is that I find his psychology in the movie perfectly believable.

And just to reiterate - I don't think Square Enix were trying, with ACC, to progress on from the original story so much as recreate it in a new format. Whether that was the way to go is another question.

Interesting topic.

 

[Tifabelle]

Yes, unsatisfactory perhaps. But certainly believable. For the record, I liked AC/C, but I will agree that there is a certain element that leaves something to be desired.

EDIT: I should say - It was good. Not great. But it served it purpose, and I enjoyed it for what it was.

And just to reiterate - I don't think Square Enix were trying, with ACC, to progress on from the original story so much as recreate it in a new format. Whether that was the way to go is another question.

Yeah. Or trying to relive it? Something along those lines. I mean, if you really think about it, bringing back Sephiroth and Aerith and Zack (and Rufus) was so that we can sort of reminisce on the experience and see our characters updated and whatnot.

 

[Roger]

I don't want to get too serious in this discussion, since Cloud is, after all, a fictional character and his creators can do whatever they like with him - and also, I'm not sure exactly what it is we're debating. Do we find his character arc in AC unbelievable? Or just unsatisfactory from a fan point of view? However, taking into account the extreme nature of what he's been through, I think that before we can justifiably describe his character in AC as "screwing" with his friends and "blabbering" about his unworthiness, we too would have to experience the total destruction of our home town at the hands our of idol, four years of torture as a lab rat, the knowledge that our dearest friend had sacrificed himself in order to save our life (and would have probably lived if he'd left us to die) and that another beloved friend had died trying to fix a mission that we'd screwed up, and saved our life - again - in the process, all this combined with the awareness that we'd probably already completed the one useful thing we could do in the world, and that the world was still dying, and we didn't know how to save it.

I don't know the exact symptoms of PTSD but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that Cloud was suffering from this illness (as well as, or symbolised by, Geostigma). In fact, if he was a real person, it'd be a bloody miracle if he wasn't. Having one's own life saved at the cost of others can often induce survivor guilt, and it's easy to see why Cloud would think that Zack's life and Aerith's life were worth more than his; that he should have died, and they should have lived. What I'm saying, basically, is that I find his psychology in the movie perfectly believable.

And just to reiterate - I don't think Square Enix were trying, with ACC, to progress on from the original story so much as recreate it in a new format. Whether that was the way to go is another question.

Interesting topic.

I find it unbelievable.

I mean yeah, survivor guilt, seeing his mother burn alive, losing his only friend, indirectly causing Aerith's death, dooming the world, I would totally understand it if he never recovered from all this. If he remained in that wheelchair for the rest of his life I would totally get that.

This is not what happened. Cloud did find the strength to move on, in fact Mako stopped being a problem to him, he was mentally stronger after all those things then back when he hadn't suffered oh so much loss yet. Maybe not the most believable character arc but it IS what they had done in FFVII. They totally committed to Cloud having come out of the ordeal stronger then he was before and AC wanted to do the exact opposite thing.

Now Case of Tifa did as good a job of bringing FFVII Cloud to AC Cloud as possible under the circumstances, but this still would have been better done to any FF character other then Cloud, with whom we have already been explained at length that the whole science behind his superpowers makes the protagonist of Advent Children, a man whose superpowers are only rivalled by his self-loathing, a virtual impossibility.

 

[Terrafig]

I'm not sure exactly what it is we're debating. Do we find his character arc in AC unbelievable? Or just unsatisfactory from a fan point of view?

I kind of derailed the discussion a little bit to speculate on whether or not Cloud is weak-willed.

First, thanks for rehashing these questions, guys. I spent years on my own opinions without consulting official material, so you could say I'm really out of the loop.

Prior to FFVII Cloud was not deemed fit to be admitted into SOLDIER. Physically he was a tank without question but he had all these doubts and insecurities that you just can't have otherwise the makotreatment will **** you up.

So being an uncertain adolescent is now equivalent to being weak-willed, even considering Cloud's underlying desire to prove himself is a strong motivation?

Plus, even though within the story it's Shinra documents saying all that, SE confirms it.

I won't debate it, then, but this is one of those cases where I wish SE had remained silent.

Stuff about Jenova being responsible for Cloud making it to Midgar and carrying himself through the first disk of the OG.

I won't argue Jenova's influence, but my own interpretation featured Cloud grasping onto Zack as a way to survive, and Jenova aiding the process, rather than just remaining an inept vegetable under the influence of mako. Perhaps I give him more credit than he deserves. Even so

Well, we all know what happened to that guy, he ended up giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, had a mental breakdown and took a nosedive into the Lifestream.

When the party finds Cloud again he's back to being Mako Poisoned. But then Tifa and Cloud take another trip into the Lifestream, uncover Cloud's past, he gets put back together, and when he wakes up he doesn't need fake memories anymore, he doesn't suffer from Mako Poisoning, he's better.

I still maintain that this is the best evidence to support Cloud's strong will. Unless we're arguing that the strength of one's will is subject to change, but under that heading, isn't Shinra's SOLDIER assessment system fundamentally flawed? I guess so, since Sephiroth went batshit insane, but in that case, the argument that Cloud is weak-willed (where we see him at the end of OG, at least) collapses.

As a point of clarification

Cloud wasn't the first one to fail mako-showering. They knew before he went for it that weak minds wouldn't pass through.

Absolutely. I didn't say the reason didn't exist; I just said that I wasn't sure it was legitimate in Cloud's case. They put him under a pre-existing header because they didn't know what to make of his reaction to Jenova/mako. But, again, SE says so.

I guess it really boils down to the argument that, even if Cloud is weak-willed during SOLDIER assessment or while he was held at Shinra Mansion (still dubious, considering the manner in which he relentlessly goes after Sephiroth; that requires some guts, man), saying that he's weak-willed by the time AC rolls around is a stretch. Licorice's argument makes more sense, in my opinion, even if it makes the strife of Final Fantasy VII seem pointless, which I dislike for other reasons.

 

[Tifabelle]

Ok. You're getting hung up on "weak-willed" which I used as more a throw-away phrase. (I HAVE A PROBLEM, OK. I CAN'T ALWAYS FIND THE RIGHT WORDS. ) I think I put it better with "lacks mental fortitude". And just because he lacks mental fortitude to withstand mako doesn't mean he has none at all. And I do think that by the end of FFVII he's grown past that. (Did I say he was weak-willed [aka mental fortitude] in AC? If so, I was probably on drugs. I only meant it in regards to the mako.)

I won't debate it, then, but this is one of those cases where I wish SE had remained silent.

Yes, well... Sort of taking cons with the pros.

I won't argue Jenova's influence, but my own interpretation featured Cloud grasping onto Zack as a way to survive, and Jenova aiding the process, rather than just remaining an inept vegetable under the influence of mako. Perhaps I give him more credit than he deserves. Even so

I'm not saying that this is incorrect or that the other is correct. I conceded that it really could be either/or. The bottom line though is that he wasn't strong enough to withstand mako treatment. Whether or not he was able to "break through" is another matter.

But to sort of answer your other question, about if a person's [will] could change? Well, depends. I think that a person's mental strength could go up and down throughout the course of a life, sure. Given circumstances that arise, even a strong person could let doubt creep in. I mean, Cloud's a fictional character. Should he be immune to it? idk.

Licorice's argument makes more sense, in my opinion, even if it makes the strife of Final Fantasy VII seem pointless, which I dislike for other reasons.

You're not the first person I've seen say this. I mean, it's tough. I can understand it, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Cloud regresses, it's true. But I don't think it completely undoes everything he went through in FFVII. He sort of just takes a step back.

But even so, at the end of AC, he's back where he was at the end of FFVII anyways. So what's the difference?