What do you think about Cloud?

[ForceStealer]

This line would have been approximately 20X more awesome with a cut-away to Cloud wasting an entire platoon of Deep Ground soldiers with one swing of his Fusion Sword. And yet its still a pretty decent indicator of Cloud's state of mind in the most recent part of the compilation.

I agree, and yet I don't. On the one the hand I certainly would love to see Cloud Barret and Tifa tearin' up in Midgar once again. But on the other there was something to be said to just hear and imagine what was going on on the other line

 

[Wolfmania]

What do I think of Cloud? I think he's pretty awesome, actually.

Yes, I disliked him somewhat in AC(much better in AC/C though), but that's just one single phase of his character.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I think AC/C works best if you look at it under the assumption that you weren't supposed to like Cloud through much of the narrative.

As has been pointed out here and elsewhere SE seemed to be trying to evoke the feel of the OG for the film, and in the OG Cloud was a selfish jerkass when we first met him. He didn't want to know people's names because they weren't important (note, this is not one of the moments with an optional response, Cloud WILL say he doesn't care at that moment). And he had an understandable reason for that attitude, due to his fucked mental state caused by shit-tons of horrible trauma + Jenova cells and Sephiroth's influence.

In AC/C, Cloud isn't very likable through much of the movie. He's going about shit all wrong, feeling constantly sorry for himself and guilty for his supposed "sins" he committed by letting Zack and Aerith die/not being able to cure Denzel and getting sick himself. And of course, he's sick because of Jenova's cells and Sephiroth's influence. And just like in the OG, those feelings are understandable, if a bit less easy to swallow than his previous mental break for some of us.

In both cases he starts out rather unlikable and then mans up and deals with shit as himself in the end. So really, AC/C works better for me personally viewed that way. You weren't supposed to like Cloud's attitude early on in either case, and in the film you were supposed to be on Tifa's side when she tries to boot him out of his funk and remind him that he is Cloud mother-fuckin' Strife, and he's too badass for this shit.

As always, Cloud might have some problems getting started, but by the finish he reminds you just how awesome he can be when he feels it. Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Ite]

I don't know why the act of cheaply recycling a dry husk of a once-complex character arc should be championed. It was cheap, it caused problems, the fandom split.

I still echo everything Masa said, except the bit about Squall. Squall's awesome, but that's for another thread.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...Recycled? They may have done it wrong, but I don't remember Cloud ever dealing with the pressure of having a family, being happy, and moving on while being stricken with a disease in the midst of trying to cure it.

So apparently you think nothing counts beyond AC... despite the fact that was several years ago.... But the Squall critique that includes material past his original game, is the clincher. That makes total sense

 

[ForceStealer]

And to claim that the non-depressed Cloud isn't marketable when Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus don't show him to be depressed even a little bit really does show that you are latched unerringly on that one Nomura quote and 50 minutes of a ~30+ hour Compilation.

Oh, and Kingdom Hearts I guess. Although I seem to remember when I mentioned that Cloud's cockiness with Squall in KH2 was reassuring that SE was aware of Cloud's character I was lambasted for suggesting it had any bearing on the real Cloud. Which is it? 'Cause he was a pretty cocky mofo in that scene.

I would say Cloud's persona in FF Tactics from back when FF7 came out was a whole lot more aloof and stoic than his appearances in Crisis Core, Dirge, Dissidia 1 or 2 ever approach being.

 

[Masamune]

About as much personality as anyone else in the game, to be quite honest.

Except you're not. Being honest, that is.

Who the fuck cares about Kingdom Hearts? All of the characters are mere shells of their former selves and anyone looking to that game for an actual portrayal of the FF characters is a moron.

Oh, so Kingdom Hearts doesn't count now? Where are they getting this perception of Cloud from then?

They've barely got anything in common with them. The only one relevant is AC and that's not the last portrayal Cloud has had by a long shot.

Yeah, accept they aren't, because all you're doing is looking at the previous depiction in AC, Nomura's one quote on it, and complaining about the dub's bad acting which hardly is a reflection of the character's true portrayal. Again, way to ignore two thirds of the Compilation and Dissidia that DOESN'T have him being cold, angsty and depressed.

Nomura has already said that "upbeat, positive" Cloud is not a familiar face with the fanbase. He's not going to suddenly revert Cloud back to that old image if he doesn't believe it's congruent with his character or the demographic.

What was Cloud's first appearance post-FFVII? Kingdom Hearts.

Again, aloof, stoic and "stiffer than the stiffs back home". Who was behind this game? Nomura. This image of Cloud has now permeated the rest of the games. Even if it's nuanced across the various titles, it still remains that Cloud's popular image is not one carried over from the OG.

He is when he had his memories removed and is made a villain again, but considering at the beginning of 012 he wasn't, umm yeah. It's not applicable. Again, you're ignoring the depth and actual truth of the portrayal and focusing more on the shallow initial depiction that's only shown briefly.

I'm gonna take that as a 'Yes'.

So Cecil's a halfbaked cookie and Terra's a ragdoll. Okay.

Kefka used Terra as his plaything with the Slave Crown, so yeah.
He calls both Cecil AND Golbez "half-baked". Figure it out.

And no, Jecht's not a meathead either. He's not an idiot.

I'd say Jecht was a tool. He was a drunkard with lousy parenting skills.

Does it matter, anyway? You seem to be skirting around the real issue.

Gabranth being a "fido" for Arcadia was half true.

No, it WAS true. Full stop.

It's not even satirical, that's bullshit.

Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.

So please explain how Kefka isn't using satire here?

Again, how does Cecil being a cookie, Terra being a doll, and Garland being a fossil have any truth to it?

Doesn't he call Cloud of Darkness a fossil and not Garland? Which makes sense.

They're clownish insults from an insane killer. Can't believe you're trying to validate the childish insults Kefka gives people.

No, otherwise he'd be spouting random shit without any kind of observational humour. It's like saying The Joker doesn't have any method in his madness, either. Not that I think Kefka's zingers are especially funny... except maybe:

No. They. Don't. Unless you're only going to focus on AC and ignore any other example that proves you wrong. Which you have. I'm sure if someone only pays attention to AC and none of the shit that shows otherwise, yeah. They'd call it his image. If you want to do that, go play on Gamefaqs and try and debate it there.

What examples?

Crisis Core? Cloud when he was a kid. Even Squenix couldn't fuck that up.

Dirge of Cerberus? Cloud's in the game for like five seconds. And they were too busy flanderizing Vincent in that one.

So yeah, good job citing two incidental titles as proofz that Squenix don't see Cloud as the stoic hero.

...So they're about..equal? Six and "half a dozen" are the same amount. A dozen is 12..and half of that is six. So okay. Thanks for saying they're about equal.

Yeah... that's what I said? So take away Cloud's battle quotes from Dissidia, and you've still got "the brooder". Take away Cloud's lulzy optional lines and you've got the same ol' Cloud. He knows when to get serious but he's also dorky and light-hearted and can mix it with his friends.

I'm sure your absolute loathing of FFVIII had nothing to do with that assessment of Squall. Thank you for that balanced and objective analysis.

Ad hominem. I dislike FFVIII and its characters for good reason. That doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours.

Squall isn't anti-social. He's not sociopathic. He's a loner. Cloud enjoys company and doesn't mind traveling with companions. Squall does not. Cloud shares his feelings and doesn't mind offering advice to characters who need it. See his interactions with Tidus, Firion and Terra. Squall does not like being bothered, see said interactions with Bartz and Zidane. Cloud is able to voice his thoughts. Squall merely keeps them to himself.

Squall is able to be brought out of his shell and reveal himself to others but it usually takes time to do it.

Funny because that sounds like another FF character you're describing: Vincent Valentine. And what was it Nomura said about Vincent in the Reunion Files: "I think he's really similar to Cloud, except Vincent is older and more mature."

Um, no. I never thought Cloud & Vincent were particularly similar in the original game. Not in the slightest. Sure, they both had shit to settle from their past but you could say that for just about every party member.

Nomura doesn't know shit about the characters and he's partly responsible for starting this new trend in characterization, which isn't specific to just Cloud.

...Recycled? They may have done it wrong, but I don't remember Cloud ever dealing with the pressure of having a family, being happy, and moving on while being stricken with a disease in the midst of trying to cure it. :

Same shit, different label. As I already said a few pages back.

Cloud struggles with inner-conflict, Sephiroth haunts him from beyond the grave, Cloud overcomes his demons with the help of his friends, defeats Sephiroth and Aerith saves the world. The only difference being that Cloud's mind was literally screwed up in the OG, whereas in AC, he willingly gives up on himself and his loved ones, thus dumping on the OG's character development

 

[Ryushikaze]

Except you're not. Being honest, that is.

Right, I'm not even the one that was said to and it pisses me off. If you want to accuse someone of not being honest, you back that up with HOW.

Oh, so Kingdom Hearts doesn't count now? Where are they getting this perception of Cloud from then?

The same place they pulled other portrayals out of- wherever the fuck they wanted.

Nomura has already said that "upbeat, positive" Cloud is not a familiar face with the fanbase. He's not going to suddenly revert Cloud back to that old image if he doesn't believe it's congruent with his character or the demographic.

Which is why he had Cloud acting cocky in KH2, and upbeat in Dirge and Crisis Core.

What was Cloud's first appearance post-FFVII? Kingdom Hearts.

Incorrect. Ehrgeiz. Tactics.

Again, aloof, stoic and "stiffer than the stiffs back home". Who was behind this game? Nomura. This image of Cloud has now permeated the rest of the games. Even if it's nuanced across the various titles, it still remains that Cloud's popular image is not one carried over from the OG.

But how Cloud acts in KH and Nomura's comment are not ones that are involate. They've moved away from it over time, even in Dissidia.

I'm gonna take that as a 'Yes'.

Ingoring all conditionals doesn't validate your point.

Kefka used Terra as his plaything with the Slave Crown, so yeah.
He calls both Cecil AND Golbez "half-baked". Figure it out.

Kefka sees people as one dimensional aspects that exist for his amusement. That he sees Cloud or anyone as ANYTHING isn't exactly a spectacular bit of evidence against the idea that people are more nuanced.

I'd say Jecht was a tool. He was a drunkard with lousy parenting skills.

Does it matter, anyway? You seem to be skirting around the real issue.

Establishing how well of a bead you have on other characters is relevant.
Jecht is quite a bit more than a 'drunkard with bad parenting skills', while we're on the subject.

Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.

So please explain how Kefka isn't using satire here?

Because there's no evidence of it actually being satire as opposed to caustic insults for the sake of riling folks up.

Doesn't he call Cloud of Darkness a fossil and not Garland? Which makes sense.

How, exactly, does it make sense?

No, otherwise he'd be spouting random shit without any kind of observational humour. It's like saying The Joker doesn't have any method in his madness, either. Not that I think Kefka's zingers are especially funny... except maybe:

Kefka IS just spouting random shit. He's what he perceives and treats it like it's true and uses this to needle people. You're doing something similar.

What examples?

Crisis Core? Cloud when he was a kid. Even Squenix couldn't fuck that up.

Dirge of Cerberus? Cloud's in the game for like five seconds. And they were too busy flanderizing Vincent in that one.

So yeah, good job citing two incidental titles as proofz that Squenix don't see Cloud as the stoic hero.

So, if we ignore two later titles, one of which is post Cloud's depression, yeah, he's totally stoic and not cracking smiles while he fights and cracking small jokes, or anything like that.

Yeah... that's what I said? So take away Cloud's battle quotes from Dissidia, and you've still got "the brooder". Take away Cloud's lulzy optional lines and you've got the same ol' Cloud. He knows when to get serious but he's also dorky and light-hearted and can mix it with his friends.

And yet that's still what you see in Dissidia. His final line is cracking a Joke in rejoinder to Squall.

Ad hominem. I dislike FFVIII and its characters for good reason. That doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours.

On its own, no. But basing that opinion on evidence does help establish how in line with reality those opinions are. Opinions have no inherent truth value.

Funny because that sounds like another FF character you're describing: Vincent Valentine. And what was it Nomura said about Vincent in the Reunion Files: "I think he's really similar to Cloud, except Vincent is older and more mature."

Um, most of that paragraph WAS ABOUT Cloud, not Squall, so yes, Cloud and Vincent are similar, in that "Cloud enjoys company and doesn't mind traveling with companions. Cloud shares his feelings and doesn't mind offering advice to characters who need it. See his interactions with Tidus, Firion and Terra. Cloud is able to voice his thoughts" and so does Vincent.
Vincent and Squall aren't much alike apart from being laconic.

Um, no. I never thought Cloud & Vincent were particularly similar in the original game. Not in the slightest. Sure, they both had shit to settle from their past but you could say that for just about every party member.

So, you simply don't think they were alike. Despite both being the thinking before speaking, careful with their words, encouraging others when they are down, both wanting to settle grudges with specific peoples from their past, etc. etc. Not alike?

Nomura doesn't know shit about the characters and he's partly responsible for starting this new trend in characterization, which isn't specific to just Cloud.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Same shit, different label. As I already said a few pages back.

Except not really. You have to- as you proceed to do, boil away most of the details to make the arc the same.

Cloud struggles with inner-conflict, Sephiroth haunts him from beyond the grave, Cloud overcomes his demons with the help of his friends, defeats Sephiroth and Aerith saves the world. The only difference being that Cloud's mind was literally screwed up in the OG, whereas in AC, he willingly gives up on himself and his loved ones, thus dumping on the OG's character development

Saying 'character struggles with inner conflict' defines such a ridiculously wide RANGE of shit that you can't seriously think this is a compelling argument.

A man coming to terms with unresolved issues with his now dead but emotionally distant father and a woman overcoming her alcoholism are both inner conflicts, but they have almost nothing to do with each other.

Cloud dealing with his identity and his lack thereof and dealing with depression and a paranoid fear that everything he loves will be taken from him and that he is being punished from beyond the grave with an incurable disease are two completely different stories. You can't boil them down to 'inner conflict.' Every FF has had characters with inner conflicts. I mean, if simply HAVING them is evidence of recycling shit, they've been recycling shit since the beginning of the SNES era, if not earlier.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^This. I rarely agree so fully with Ryu, our minds just seem to work somewhat differently, but this time? He has just said nearly everything that ran through my head while reading Masamune's last post. Props, Ryu.

 

[ForceStealer]

What was Cloud's first appearance post-FFVII? Kingdom Hearts.

As Ryu already pointed out, Tactics was first, and he was MORE aloof in that one, imo. But I call your KH video and raise you:

 

[Makoeyes987]

Exactly, even in KH, Cloud was NOT just some depressed tool with no personality. Are you just gonna ignore anything that doesn't line up with what that one quote said?

And good point about FF Tactics and Ehrgeiz. I forgot

 

[Masamune]

Right, I'm not even the one that was said to and it pisses me off. If you want to accuse someone of not being honest, you back that up with HOW.

I already have.

Saying that Cloud has as much personality as anyone in Dissidia is simply disingenuous. Cloud's one of the most serios and stoic characters in the game.

The same place they pulled other portrayals out of- wherever the fuck they wanted.

Great explanation thar.

Which is why he had Cloud acting cocky in KH2, and upbeat in Dirge and Crisis Core.

Cocky?

Incorrect. Ehrgeiz. Tactics.

I deliberately discounted those games. Why?

FF Tactics was released less than a year after FFVII, featuring Cloud in a small, optional cameo, developed by Sakaguchi and co.

Ehrgeiz was a beat'em up with no character interaction and wasn't developed by Square anyway.

So yes, Kingdom Hearts is Cloud's first real appearance post-FFVII which is directed by staff from the original game (Nomura, Kitase etc...) And look what we got.

But how Cloud acts in KH and Nomura's comment are not ones that are involate. They've moved away from it over time, even in Dissidia.

I already said that although Cloud is nuanced across the various games, his overall image remains effectively the same. None of them are Cloud from the OG.

Ingoring all conditionals doesn't validate your point.

I don't have time to fuck about with rhetoric. Kuja IS a narcissist. None of you would disagree if anyone said that in general. Therefore, Kefka's observation was perfectly accurate.

Kefka sees people as one dimensional aspects that exist for his amusement. That he sees Cloud or anyone as ANYTHING isn't exactly a spectacular bit of evidence against the idea that people are more nuanced.

Kefka makes snarky remarks about the character's foibles or their image etc. Again, either Kefka's insults strike a chord or they don't.

Jecht is quite a bit more than a 'drunkard with bad parenting skills', while we're on the subject.

I never said he wasn't, but I can see why Kefka would call him a meathead.

Because there's no evidence of it actually being satire as opposed to caustic insults for the sake of riling folks up.

The reason he's using it doesn't discount the fact it's satire. Nice try.

How, exactly, does it make sense?

Cloud of Darkness is an ancient being from the Void.

Kefka IS just spouting random shit. He's what he perceives and treats it like it's true and uses this to needle people. You're doing something similar.

Kefka is a mouthpiece for the writers. The game's making self-referential jibes about its own cast. Deal with it.

And yet that's still what you see in Dissidia. His final line is cracking a Joke in rejoinder to Squall.

Can't recall. And I bet it's another stiffly delivered line with barely any kind of emotion.

On its own, no. But basing that opinion on evidence does help establish how in line with reality those opinions are. Opinions have no inherent truth value.

Nice try putting the onus on me, but I'm afraid you're telling this to the wrong person.

Um, most of that paragraph WAS ABOUT Cloud, not Squall, so yes, Cloud and Vincent are similar, in that "Cloud enjoys company and doesn't mind traveling with companions. Cloud shares his feelings and doesn't mind offering advice to characters who need it. See his interactions with Tidus, Firion and Terra. Cloud is able to voice his thoughts" and so does Vincent.
Vincent and Squall aren't much alike apart from being laconic.

If you're talking about this:

Then Dissidia Cloud's just as bland and flat as ever. He has barely any chemistry with the characters he's talking to and still speaks in ellipses.

So, you simply don't think they were alike. Despite both being the thinking before speaking, careful with their words, encouraging others when they are down, both wanting to settle grudges with specific peoples from their past, etc. etc. Not alike?

Thinking before they speak? No. Vincent's generally a dispassionate man of few words, Cloud (the REAL Cloud) is quite upfront and candid about his feelings, even if he sounds like a dork because of it.

Encouraging others? Where does Vincent do that, to the point that we can equate him to Cloud, anyway?

Settling grudges with specific people? Tifa & Barret both wanted even with Shinra. Does that make them really similar characters, too?

And I'll repost this for you:

Vincent: Why such a puzzled look? You don't want me to come?

Cloud: No, it's just that you're always so cold. I thought you didn't care what
was happening.

^ And THAT'S on the eve of the final battle.

So no. Cloud & Vincent are not similar, let alone "really" similar.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Not likely in this thread. I might just take the advice in my own signature.

Except not really. You have to- as you proceed to do, boil away most of the details to make the arc the same.

If by that, you mean I cut to the chase, then yeah. I'm not gonna get bogged down in minutiae.

Saying 'character struggles with inner conflict' defines such a ridiculously wide RANGE of shit that you can't seriously think this is a compelling argument.

Funny how you manage to ignore the last part of that paragraph where I differentiate between the two.

A man coming to terms with unresolved issues with his now dead but emotionally distant father and a woman overcoming her alcoholism are both inner conflicts, but they have almost nothing to do with each other.

Thanks for that.

Cloud dealing with his identity and his lack thereof and dealing with depression and a paranoid fear that everything he loves will be taken from him and that he is being punished from beyond the grave with an incurable disease are two completely different stories. You can't boil them down to 'inner conflict.' Every FF has had characters with inner conflicts. I mean, if simply HAVING them is evidence of recycling shit, they've been recycling shit since the beginning of the SNES era, if not earlier.

I wouldn't have objected to a (sub)plot where Cloud has to adjust to a new way of life, etc. That doesn't mean he has to be DYING, SUICIDAL, and as a result becomes a deadbeat, wimping out of all his responsibilities. Seriously, it's shoddy writing and inconsistent characterization.

As Ryu already pointed out, Tactics was first, and he was MORE aloof in that one, imo. But I call your KH video and raise you:

Notice how Squall (frickin' Squall) is a lot of more expressive visually, as well as vocally than Cloud, who's hiding behind his fringe and talking monotonously. This is exactly why a lot of Cloud's so-called 'humour' comes across as stilted. And it's not just the crappy voice-acting either, it's his overall demeanour.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I already have.

Saying that Cloud has as much personality as anyone in Dissidia is simply disingenuous. Cloud's one of the most serios and stoic characters in the game.

It isn't disingenuous if you look at all of his interaction and dialogue with the characters he comes across in the game. He's not all serious, and he's certainly not completely stoic. If you only look at moments where he is, then that's the only way you come to that conclusion. Cloud's a mixed bag.

I deliberately discounted those games. Why?

FF Tactics was released less than a year after FFVII, featuring Cloud in a small, optional cameo, developed by Sakaguchi and co.

Ehrgeiz was a beat'em up with no character interaction and wasn't developed by Square anyway.

So yes, Kingdom Hearts is Cloud's first real appearance post-FFVII which is directed by staff from the original game (Nomura, Kitase etc...) And look what we got.

Uh..... Sakaguchi was one of the head writers, game designers, and producers of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud is just as much his as it is Nomura's, dude. So how is FF Tactics less of an appearance? Especially considering its an in-universe appearance, and not some alternate universe spinoff? Also, his appearance is part of the completion of the game and part of the Zodiac Brave History. I would say his appearance in FF Tactics as a playable character, relevant to the acquisition of a Zodiac Stone, who's side quest is required to complete the game and even lands him a part in the chronicalization of the "Zodiac Brave Story" is way more relevant of an appearance compared to a brief AU appearance of Cloud in a completely separate game series that isn't Final Fantasy and has his him with a totally different backstory and a differing character as well.

I already said that although Cloud is nuanced across the various games, his overall image remains effectively the same. None of them are Cloud from the OG.

So apparently not even Sakaguchi could even get him right, what with Cloud angsting, having fits, and chasing after Sephiroth in that game. Cloud was just the pinnacle of perfection that no writer from the original game has ever been ever to emulate since. Such a shame.

I don't have time to fuck about with rhetoric. Kuja IS a narcissist. None of you would disagree if anyone said that in general. Therefore, Kefka's observation was perfectly accurate.

So you can bring up every detail or scene regarding how Cloud is somehow still secretly an emo crybaby in every game he's ever appeared him post FFVII, but any detail or truth regarding Kuja's character is just "rhetoric?" That's quite the double standard there. Kefka's "observation" on his narcissism only becomes true because he makes it true. So no, it's not perfectly accurate. Play the game and get narrative context, instead of relying on stereotypes.

Kefka makes snarky remarks about the character's foibles or their image etc. Again, either Kefka's insults strike a chord or they don't.

I never said he wasn't, but I can see why Kefka would call him a meathead.

You still haven't explained how Cecil and Golbez are "half-baked", or how Zidane's a "stupid monkey."

Witty, scathing insults and mockery doesn't necessitate satire. No, his insults don't strike a chord (of truth at least), and they certainly aren't legitimate critiques of the characters.

Kefka is a mouthpiece for the writers. The game's making self-referential jibes about its own cast. Deal with it.

Says who? And only someone with a tenuous grasp of the characters would find those quotes to be anything truthful. They're clever insults, but that's about it.

Can't recall. And I bet it's another stiffly delivered line with barely any kind of emotion.

So it's either he never jokes around and is depressed all the time, or his jokes are just stiff and have no emotion. Gotcha.

Nice try putting the onus on me, but I'm afraid you're telling this to the wrong person.

Well it is on you, since... you hold an opinion completely based on your subjective hatred of Squall and the game. Yeah, it's a valid opinion, but umm...considering your previous reduction of Squall being wholly inaccurate, it's value to the debate is why I called it into question. Squall most certainly does have a personality in FFVIII and Dissidia, and he's certainly not anti-social.

If you're talking about this:

Then Dissidia Cloud's just as bland and flat as ever. He has barely any chemistry with the characters he's talking to and still speaks in ellipses.

He sure doesn't, which is how he somehow ends up being the de facto leader of their group, and they all look to him as a leader with experience. And he becomes friends with them.

All you're gonna keep doing is literally either ignore anything contrary to your position or when one is so obvious that you *can't* ignore it, just say it's "not good enough" and say that it still is Cloud not being emotional enough. Apparently to you, there's no other Cloud than the OG Cloud, even though since FF Tactics, Cloud's been on the quiet, troubled yet thoughtful side. But somehow that doesn't count, even though that was from Sakaguchi himself.

Thinking before they speak? No. Vincent's generally a dispassionate man of few words, Cloud (the REAL Cloud) is quite upfront and candid about his feelings, even if he sounds like a dork because of it.

Encouraging others? Where does Vincent do that, to the point that we can equate him to Cloud, anyway?

He's not equivalent as Cloud but considering during the final battle and his dialogue on the way to the crater, Vincent has just as much passion and desire to see it through to the end as everyone else. And DC has Vincent encouraging Reeve of all people, to keep fighting and not give up when the WRO gets fucked up.

^ And THAT'S on the eve of the final battle.

So no. Cloud & Vincent are not similar, let alone "really" similar.

They're similar in the sense of being quiet, thoughtful, and introverted in their own world.

And umm, Cloud was and still is rather cold to those he doesn't know or have anything to do with. Not to the extent of Vincent telling people to go away while he sleeps in a coffin, but they are not polar opposites, even in the original game.

If by that, you mean I cut to the chase, then yeah. I'm not gonna get bogged down in minutiae.

Thing is, even the minutiae is important in analysis. Unless you're just doing arm-chair observations that forsake truth for stereotypical observations and jabs at what you personally don't like. Either take in the whole package of truth, or just admit you're doing the latter.

 

[Masamune]

It isn't disingenuous if you look at all of his interaction and dialogue with the characters he comes across in the game. He's not all serious, and he's certainly not completely stoic. If you only look at moments where he is, then that's the only way you come to that conclusion. Cloud's a mixed bag.

He's most certainly NOT a mixed bag. Let's face it, the majority of scenes featuring Cloud are all pretty one-note.

Uh..... Sakaguchi was one of the head writers, game designers, and producers of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud is just as much his as it is Nomura's, dude. So how is FF Tactics less of an appearance? Especially considering its an in-universe appearance, and not some alternate universe spinoff? Also, his appearance is part of the completion of the game and part of the Zodiac Brave History.

I had a brainfart moment there, because I meant to say Matsuno (being an Ivalice game and all). Disregard.

I have no problem with Cloud's characterization in FFT, anyway. Some people speculate that it takes place when Cloud was lost in the Lifestream, hence his disorientation. There's nothing particularly out of character.

So you can bring up every detail or scene regarding how Cloud is somehow still secretly an emo crybaby in every game he's ever appeared him post FFVII, but any detail or truth regarding Kuja's character is just "rhetoric?" That's quite the double standard there. Kefka's "observation" on his narcissism only becomes true because he makes it true. So no, it's not perfectly accurate. Play the game and get narrative context, instead of relying on stereotypes.

No, I said you analyzing the shit out of Kuja in an attempt to devalue Kefka's simple insult is rhetoric.

You still haven't explained how Cecil and Golbez are "half-baked", or how Zidane's a "stupid monkey."

"Half-baked" because neither of one belongs to light OR darkness.
Zidane is a monkey-boy, isn't he?

*This* is getting stupid now.

Witty, scathing insults and mockery doesn't necessitate satire. No, his insults don't strike a chord (of truth at least), and they certainly aren't legitimate critiques of the characters.

satire - witty language used to convey insults or scorn;

You're wrong. Just accept it and stop trying to rephrase a workaround.

Says who? And only someone with a tenuous grasp of the characters would find those quotes to be anything truthful. They're clever insults, but that's about it.

Then explain why they're clever?

So it's either he never jokes around and is depressed all the time, or his jokes are just stiff and have no emotion. Gotcha.

Isn't that my point? Cloud's so super-serios that even his jokes fall flat.

Well it is on you, since... you hold an opinion completely based on your subjective hatred of Squall and the game. Yeah, it's a valid opinion, but umm...considering your previous reduction of Squall being wholly inaccurate, it's value to the debate is why I called it into question. Squall most certainly does have a personality in FFVIII and Dissidia, and he's certainly not anti-social.

Believe what you will, at the end of the day. Because I'm not opening another can of worms for us to pointlessly while away the hours debating. I guess my perception of Squall is completely unfounded and not shared by countless players who have experienced FFVIII in its all glory. Nope, just crazy talk.

He sure doesn't, which is how he somehow ends up being the de facto leader of their group, and they all look to him as a leader with experience. And he becomes friends with them.

They might respect his leadership, but that doesn't mean he has chemistry with the characters. The same way you can respect a father, a military general, a captain on a football team. It doesn't mean you necessarily have a great rapport with them. Cloud just doesn't strike me as a particularly social animal in these games. He's always holding back somehow or being very stiff and awkward, like every conversation's a big deal.

All you're gonna keep doing is literally either ignore anything contrary to your position or when one is so obvious that you *can't* ignore it, just say it's "not good enough" and say that it still is Cloud not being emotional enough. Apparently to you, there's no other Cloud than the OG Cloud, even though since FF Tactics, Cloud's been on the quiet, troubled yet thoughtful side. But somehow that doesn't count, even though that was from Sakaguchi himself.

I know for a fact that I'm right, that's why. And I'm sure you feel the same. So really, there isn't much point to this "debate"?

He's not equivalent as Cloud but considering during the final battle and his dialogue on the way to the crater, Vincent has just as much passion and desire to see it through to the end as everyone else.

Exactly. "...as everyone else." That doesn't make Cloud & Vincent examples for comparison.

And DC has Vincent encouraging Reeve of all people, to keep fighting and not give up when the WRO gets fucked up.

I'm talking about the original game. Citing a Compilation title defeats the point of the argument.

They're similar in the sense of being quiet, thoughtful, and introverted in their own world.

Cloud isn't quiet. And while he is somewhat introverted, it's definitely been overstated in the modern titles.

And umm, Cloud was and still is rather cold to those he doesn't know or have anything to do with.

Such as when? I'm curious.

Not to the extent of Vincent telling people to go away while he sleeps in a coffin, but they are not polar opposites, even in the original game.

I never said they were polar opposites. Strawman.

Thing is, even the minutiae is important in analysis. Unless you're just doing arm-chair observations that forsake truth for stereotypical observations and jabs at what you personally don't like. Either take in the whole package of truth, or just admit you're doing the latter.

I don't have the time or patience to pick apart these games when the truth is staring me in the face and every time I watch a cut-scene with that blonde-haired imposter in it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I already have.

Saying that Cloud has as much personality as anyone in Dissidia is simply disingenuous. Cloud's one of the most serios and stoic characters in the game.

So, you're basing claims of dishonesty on the conclusion of an argument that no one else here is accepting, even pro arguendo.

Additionally, being serious and stoic is not the same as having no personality.

Thirdly, Cecil and Golbez exist, and you want to Complain that CLOUD is the most serious character in the game?

Great explanation thar.

Glad you recognize its brilliance.

Cocky?

I knew you were going to use that as a counter. Why? Because you're focused on Cloud the depressive. You're neglecting Cloud the snarker, the Cloud who took a dig at his battle companion by asking him if he was fighting too, the Cloud who smiled as he flew off to battle once his arc was over.

I deliberately discounted those games. Why?

FF Tactics was released less than a year after FFVII, featuring Cloud in a small, optional cameo, developed by Sakaguchi and co.

Ehrgeiz was a beat'em up with no character interaction and wasn't developed by Square anyway.

So yes, Kingdom Hearts is Cloud's first real appearance post-FFVII which is directed by staff from the original game (Nomura, Kitase etc...) And look what we got.

Cloud's cameo in FFT wasn't small. Regardless, they do exist, and they are extant appearances of Cloud- one is even canon- post FF7.
FFT is Cloud of Gaia. KH is a guy who looks like Cloud but whose history is nothing like that of our version's. Yet you think AU cloud is more true to life than multiple Original Timeline appearances. Including those which were created after the AU.
So, Mirror Universe Kirk means more to you than Generations Kirk. Got it.

I already said that although Cloud is nuanced across the various games, his overall image remains effectively the same. None of them are Cloud from the OG.

Counterproposal- you don't know Cloud from the OG very well.
Seriously, everyone else here seems to have no issue with the idea that Cloud from the OG had a tendency to overthink shit mixed in with a dry wit, and find that

I don't have time to fuck about with rhetoric. Kuja IS a narcissist. None of you would disagree if anyone said that in general. Therefore, Kefka's observation was perfectly accurate.

OG Kuja, yes. Dissidia Kuja no. Kefka shaped Kuja into being a narcissist. He made the boy what he was. Quite literally, given the manipulation post demise. And hell, let's grant that Kefka was correct there. Please establish how this translates into a history of correct observations on people's character and into actual satire and not trying to provoke a reaction.

Kefka makes snarky remarks about the character's foibles or their image etc. Again, either Kefka's insults strike a chord or they don't.

No, actually. They can in fact be Hit AND Miss, depending. Kefka searches for shit to insult people with. Most people don't give a shit.

I never said he wasn't, but I can see why Kefka would call him a meathead.

"I'd say Jecht was a tool. He was a drunkard with lousy parenting skills." You, the post before mine.

The reason he's using it doesn't discount the fact it's satire. Nice try.

And you saying it's satire doesn't make it satire.

Cloud of Darkness is an ancient being from the Void.

Yeah, how's that 'satire?' How is that a cutting observation about her personality? How is it anything but a puerile and pathetic dig? It's not clever. It's not about anything CoD gives a shit about, it's not even directed at someone who cares.

Kefka is a mouthpiece for the writers. The game's making self-referential jibes about its own cast. Deal with it.

This is a trait you have ascribed to him. Unless you can establish this, Kefka no more speaks for the writers than Shantotto or anyone else.

Can't recall. And I bet it's another stiffly delivered line with barely any kind of emotion.

...
WE HAVE TOTAL ARGUMENTATIVE COLLAPSE.
You have just admitted that you aren't familiar with the games, the very evidence you need to be as aware of as possible.
You're just cherry picking shit and refusing to consider evidence. Hell, you didn't even go and look, you assumed his line was 'stiff and unemotional' [p/f].

Nice try putting the onus on me, but I'm afraid you're telling this to the wrong person.

Buh? The Onus is ALWAYS on you to support the claims you make. That's how the burden of proof works. You make a claim, you support it. From what I've seen, you've found and focused on a select few instances that 'prove' your position, but refuse to examine instances which demonstrate the opposite of your opposition.

If you're talking about this:

Then Dissidia Cloud's just as bland and flat as ever. He has barely any chemistry with the characters he's talking to and still speaks in ellipses.

So little chemisty they all look up to him. So little chemistry that his doubts actually get people thinking about why they are fighting.
So little chemistry he convinces someone else that there is something worth fighting for in this world.

Basically, what this keeps boiling down to is that you hate Burton's delivery. You keep complaining about DELIVERY. Not CONTENT.

Thinking before they speak? No. Vincent's generally a dispassionate man of few words, Cloud (the REAL Cloud) is quite upfront and candid about his feelings, even if he sounds like a dork because of it.

Vincent isn't dispassionate. He sounds dispassionate, but you don't seal yourself into a coffin for your sins without emotional fire burning.
And Vincent is a man of few words. Cloud can get quite long winded. But both have a habit of stopping, thinking, and then speaking. He's upfront, but so is Vincent.

Encouraging others? Where does Vincent do that, to the point that we can equate him to Cloud, anyway?

Well, the moment that comes immediately to mind is encouraging Tifa when Cloud's lost in the lifestream, and again when he is found. Plus, Reeve in DoC, as mentioned. And Cloud in AC/C.

Settling grudges with specific people? Tifa & Barret both wanted even with Shinra. Does that make them really similar characters, too?

On its own, no. But thanks for the strawman. It didn't occur to you that bit was included as an additional bit of similarity to add to the others? It was incidental.

And I'll repost this for you:



^ And THAT'S on the eve of the final battle.

So no. Cloud & Vincent are not similar, let alone "really" similar.

Cloud perceives Vincent as Cold and uncaring despite his actually caring and demonstrating this- at a time when Cloud wasn't around to view it, I wish to note- Now, who ELSE was perceived as cold and uncaring by others.
It's on the tip of my tongue... it's someone in Final Fantasy VII...
Who was it...

Not likely in this thread. I might just take the advice in my own signature.

No, we got somewhere alright.

If by that, you mean I cut to the chase, then yeah. I'm not gonna get bogged down in minutiae.

There's cutting to the chase and then ignoring all the details entirely. You're doing the latter.

Funny how you manage to ignore the last part of that paragraph where I differentiate between the two.

You argue that 'The only difference' between them is 'that Cloud's mind was literally screwed up in the OG, whereas in AC, he willingly gives up on himself and his loved ones, thus dumping on the OG's character development'

That's asserting a LACK of difference between the arcs apart from the one difference you stated.

Thanks for that.

You're welcome. Not apply it to the actual arcs.

I wouldn't have objected to a (sub)plot where Cloud has to adjust to a new way of life, etc. That doesn't mean he has to be DYING, SUICIDAL, and as a result becomes a deadbeat, wimping out of all his responsibilities. Seriously, it's shoddy writing and inconsistent characterization.

At what point was Cloud suicidal? At worst he was mildly fatalistic. Even at his lowest depression, Cloud was looking for a way to make things right. In the dumbest places possible, perhaps, but fuck, it got results.

[quot]Notice how Squall (frickin' Squall) is a lot of more expressive visually, as well as vocally than Cloud, who's hiding behind his fringe and talking monotonously. This is exactly why a lot of Cloud's so-called 'humour' comes across as stilted. And it's not just the crappy voice-acting either, it's his overall demeanour.[/QUOTE]

So, then, let's take a look at this then. Cloud employs humor, acts cocky. You think he's not being expressive in his movement and voice acting.
The only time you really think they 'got Cloud rght' was the OG, in which he had no voice and a super deformed body and mannerisms.
There's an obvious conclusion making itself apparent here.

 

[Kobato]

Just been thinking, that Cloud is really hard on himself... during the nibelheim incident, he managed to lift the strongest and most toughest solider ever born into the lifestream rivers, and he still thinks that he's the weakest thing ever.

Cloud doesn't really realize that he wasn't a failure after all, and he was already strong, and he didn't need to be a solider to prove his strength, because inside... he was strong.

Like Tifa says during inside Cloud's mind " You don't believe in yourself Cloud ".

now, fans say that Tifa really doesn't know Cloud that well, but I beg to differ. She knew that Cloud is tough on himself, and that he's done something amazing, and doesn't realize it. xD

Sorry to interfer with the debate, just been thinking about FF VII lately

 

[Dashell]

I deliberately discounted those games. Why?

So "Name a time when Cloud wasn't depressed and moody except for when he wasn't. See? I'm right" basically?

 

[Masamune]

Ryu, tl;dr. You and Mako have an uncanny knack of sucking all fun out of a discussion. I've said my piece and I'm not going to keep repeating myself to make a point, when I know that the Cloud featured in KH, the Compilation and Dissidia is *NOT* the Cloud featured in the OG. Perhaps you could take individual parts from each of those titles and stitch together a Frankenstein-version to resemble the OG character, but it wouldn't be the real Cloud. Sadly, that man died with FFVII.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Except he wasn't moody and depressed in either FFT or Ehrgeiz.

Cloud: I've lost something...something very important.

Ramza: Cloud...?

Cloud: I've not been myself ever since. Who...who am I now? What should I do?
How...how can I stop this pain?

Ramza: Cloud...There are people waiting for you back in your world, am I not
right? With the power of another Stone, we may be able to return you there.

He sure wasn't.

Heck, in FFT, he's still in faux-Cloud mode, anyway. I discounted them based on the circumstances in which they were developed.

So you're able to discount when Cloud's moody or depressed "based on the circumstances in which they were developed" when you want to, but any other time it doesn't count because you say so. Gotcha

EDIT: Oh you edited your post quickly. Oh well

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, tl;dr. You and Mako have an uncanny knack of sucking all fun out of a discussion. I've said my piece and I'm not going to keep repeating myself to make a point, when I know that the Cloud featured in KH, the Compilation and Dissidia is *NOT* the Cloud featured in the OG. Perhaps you could take individual parts from each of those titles and stitch together a Frankenstein-version to resemble the OG character, but it wouldn't be the real Cloud. Sadly, that man died with FFVII.

Your Premise- Cloud as you like him died with the OG. Everyone other incarnation has not been the same.

Your evidence- Burton's delivery, and pointing towards his lack of physical expressivity.

Additional data- The OG had no voice acting and lacked the capability for subtle physical expression in the vast majority of time.

Conclusion: You hate Burton.

Cloud isn't dead. He just didn't live up to how you expected him to be in your head.

Short enough for you?

Incidentally, you may 'KNOW' Cloud isn't the same as the OG, but you've failed to properly demonstrate such.

 

[Masamune]

Cloud's entitled to be fucked up in FFT if he's still believing he's a SOLDIER and, as people have speculated, he warped to Ivalice after falling into the Lifestream. He's not angsty for the sake of it.

Ehrgeiz is no reference point for anything. Is Tifa in character? Is Zack in character? There's no real way to tell. The game's just a straight up fighting game which wasn't even developed by Square.

Kingdom Hearts was a clean break with the benefit of improved graphics and cut-scenes. They could have given us Cloud straight from the OG. Instead we got the stoic brooder every fan associates Cloud with. Apparently.

Incidentally, you may 'KNOW' Cloud isn't the same as the OG, but you've failed to properly demonstrate such.

To who? You? In that case, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed because I'm not here to win your approval, Ryu. I've said my piece. The lions will agree and the sheep will not.

There's no point continuing because we've reached that familiar point on the internetz where two opposing opinions have been established and no middle-ground has been given, no matter how reasoned the arguments. Those are the moments when I decide to bow out.

 

[BloodyCloud]

Kinda off of the main convo here...but what I think about Cloud...he's a video-game character. He made a statement in a era when it really meant something to someone, which still carries on today in a way to some people now, whether he's an empty shell of himself from the OG, or he's a character that has undergone some kind of character development throughout the Compilation/appearances in other games. There's something about him that keeps us talking about him and the FFVII Compilation in general.

 

[Ite]

What are we even talking about anymore?

 

[Makoeyes987]

You missed all the fun, Ite. Sorry

 

[clowd]

I see Cloud as a bit of an outcast, maybe a little loner...

But I dont think we ever truly see the real Cloud in Final Fantasy VII until after he finds himself. Until then he's confused and angry for many reasons. The death of Zack, Nibelheim being destroyed, his failure in SOLDIER.

After he finds himself in the lifestream he finally moves past all that and is a different person. Unfortunately the game is almost over by then.

I like Cloud as a character. He's not as extreme as lets say Squall from FF VIII who was an extreme loner. And he's not extreme like Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII who has anger issues. Tidus and Vaan? Forget about it.

He's just a guy who was really upset how his life had been going for the past 5, 6 years, but got over it all eventually and was much happier.

I dont like how Advent Children reverted Cloud back to how his personality was early in FFVII. Square knows thats how most people remember him as, but it's not who he was at the end of the game. Remember the speach on thehighwind after he found himself? Cloud from Disc 1 would never give a speach like that.

Sure, he still has that stoic, cool side to him but he wasn't as upset with himself anymore after coming to grips with his past demons in the lifestream.

The point is without problems you don't have a story. So Square took all the problems he had gotten over and dumped them back on him again to make things interesting.

Just look at how Cloud tried to keep Tifa entertained on the Highwind near the end of disc 2. Cloud from Disc 1 would never ever act like that. He was angry at himself then, too selfish to think about others