I already have.
Saying that Cloud has as much personality as anyone in Dissidia is simply disingenuous. Cloud's one of the most serios and stoic characters in the game.
So, you're basing claims of dishonesty on the conclusion of an argument that no one else here is accepting, even pro arguendo.
Additionally, being serious and stoic is not the same as having no personality.
Thirdly, Cecil and Golbez exist, and you want to Complain that CLOUD is the most serious character in the game?
Glad you recognize its brilliance.
I knew you were going to use that as a counter. Why? Because you're focused on Cloud the depressive. You're neglecting Cloud the snarker, the Cloud who took a dig at his battle companion by asking him if he was fighting too, the Cloud who smiled as he flew off to battle once his arc was over.
I deliberately discounted those games. Why?
FF Tactics was released less than a year after FFVII, featuring Cloud in a small, optional cameo, developed by Sakaguchi and co.
Ehrgeiz was a beat'em up with no character interaction and wasn't developed by Square anyway.
So yes, Kingdom Hearts is Cloud's first real appearance post-FFVII which is directed by staff from the original game (Nomura, Kitase etc...) And look what we got.
Cloud's cameo in FFT wasn't small. Regardless, they do exist, and they are extant appearances of Cloud- one is even canon- post FF7.
FFT is Cloud of Gaia. KH is a guy who looks like Cloud but whose history is nothing like that of our version's. Yet you think AU cloud is more true to life than multiple Original Timeline appearances. Including those which were created after the AU.
So, Mirror Universe Kirk means more to you than Generations Kirk. Got it.
I already said that although Cloud is nuanced across the various games, his overall image remains effectively the same. None of them are Cloud from the OG.
Counterproposal- you don't know Cloud from the OG very well.
Seriously, everyone else here seems to have no issue with the idea that Cloud from the OG had a tendency to overthink shit mixed in with a dry wit, and find that
I don't have time to fuck about with rhetoric. Kuja IS a narcissist. None of you would disagree if anyone said that in general. Therefore, Kefka's observation was perfectly accurate.
OG Kuja, yes. Dissidia Kuja no. Kefka shaped Kuja into being a narcissist. He made the boy what he was. Quite literally, given the manipulation post demise. And hell, let's grant that Kefka was correct there. Please establish how this translates into a history of correct observations on people's character and into actual satire and not trying to provoke a reaction.
Kefka makes snarky remarks about the character's foibles or their image etc. Again, either Kefka's insults strike a chord or they don't.
No, actually. They can in fact be Hit AND Miss, depending. Kefka searches for shit to insult people with. Most people don't give a shit.
I never said he wasn't, but I can see why Kefka would call him a meathead.
"I'd say Jecht was a tool. He was a drunkard with lousy parenting skills." You, the post before mine.
The reason he's using it doesn't discount the fact it's satire. Nice try.
And you saying it's satire doesn't make it satire.
Cloud of Darkness is an ancient being from the Void.
Yeah, how's that 'satire?' How is that a cutting observation about her personality? How is it anything but a puerile and pathetic dig? It's not clever. It's not about anything CoD gives a shit about, it's not even directed at someone who cares.
Kefka is a mouthpiece for the writers. The game's making self-referential jibes about its own cast. Deal with it.
This is a trait you have ascribed to him. Unless you can establish this, Kefka no more speaks for the writers than Shantotto or anyone else.
Can't recall. And I bet it's another stiffly delivered line with barely any kind of emotion.
...
WE HAVE TOTAL ARGUMENTATIVE COLLAPSE.
You have just admitted that you aren't familiar with the games, the very evidence you need to be as aware of as possible.
You're just cherry picking shit and refusing to consider evidence. Hell, you didn't even go and look, you assumed his line was 'stiff and unemotional' [p/f].
Nice try putting the onus on me, but I'm afraid you're telling this to the wrong person.
Buh? The Onus is ALWAYS on you to support the claims you make. That's how the burden of proof works. You make a claim, you support it. From what I've seen, you've found and focused on a select few instances that 'prove' your position, but refuse to examine instances which demonstrate the opposite of your opposition.
If you're talking about this:
Then Dissidia Cloud's just as bland and flat as ever. He has barely any chemistry with the characters he's talking to and still speaks in ellipses.
So little chemisty they all look up to him. So little chemistry that his doubts actually get people thinking about why they are fighting.
So little chemistry he convinces someone else that there is something worth fighting for in this world.
Basically, what this keeps boiling down to is that you hate Burton's delivery. You keep complaining about DELIVERY. Not CONTENT.
Thinking before they speak? No. Vincent's generally a dispassionate man of few words, Cloud (the REAL Cloud) is quite upfront and candid about his feelings, even if he sounds like a dork because of it.
Vincent isn't dispassionate. He sounds dispassionate, but you don't seal yourself into a coffin for your sins without emotional fire burning.
And Vincent is a man of few words. Cloud can get quite long winded. But both have a habit of stopping, thinking, and then speaking. He's upfront, but so is Vincent.
Encouraging others? Where does Vincent do that, to the point that we can equate him to Cloud, anyway?
Well, the moment that comes immediately to mind is encouraging Tifa when Cloud's lost in the lifestream, and again when he is found. Plus, Reeve in DoC, as mentioned. And Cloud in AC/C.
Settling grudges with specific people? Tifa & Barret both wanted even with Shinra. Does that make them really similar characters, too?
On its own, no. But thanks for the strawman. It didn't occur to you that bit was included as an additional bit of similarity to add to the others? It was incidental.
And I'll repost this for you:
^ And THAT'S on the eve of the final battle.
So no. Cloud & Vincent are not similar, let alone "really" similar.
Cloud perceives Vincent as Cold and uncaring despite his actually caring and demonstrating this- at a time when Cloud wasn't around to view it, I wish to note- Now, who ELSE was perceived as cold and uncaring by others.
It's on the tip of my tongue... it's someone in Final Fantasy VII...
Who was it...
Not likely in this thread. I might just take the advice in my own signature.
No, we got somewhere alright.
If by that, you mean I cut to the chase, then yeah. I'm not gonna get bogged down in minutiae.
There's cutting to the chase and then ignoring all the details entirely. You're doing the latter.
Funny how you manage to ignore the last part of that paragraph where I differentiate between the two.
You argue that 'The only difference' between them is 'that Cloud's mind was literally screwed up in the OG, whereas in AC, he willingly gives up on himself and his loved ones, thus dumping on the OG's character development'
That's asserting a LACK of difference between the arcs apart from the one difference you stated.
You're welcome. Not apply it to the actual arcs.
I wouldn't have objected to a (sub)plot where Cloud has to adjust to a new way of life, etc. That doesn't mean he has to be DYING, SUICIDAL, and as a result becomes a deadbeat, wimping out of all his responsibilities. Seriously, it's shoddy writing and inconsistent characterization.
At what point was Cloud suicidal? At worst he was mildly fatalistic. Even at his lowest depression, Cloud was looking for a way to make things right. In the dumbest places possible, perhaps, but fuck, it got results.
[quot]Notice how Squall (frickin'
Squall) is a lot of more expressive visually, as well as vocally than Cloud, who's hiding behind his fringe and talking monotonously. This is exactly why a lot of Cloud's so-called 'humour' comes across as stilted. And it's not just the crappy voice-acting either, it's his overall demeanour.[/QUOTE]
So, then, let's take a look at this then. Cloud employs humor, acts cocky. You think he's not being expressive in his movement and voice acting.
The only time you really think they 'got Cloud rght' was the OG, in which he had no voice and a super deformed body and mannerisms.
There's an obvious conclusion making itself apparent here.