What do you think about Cloud?

[LicoriceAllsorts]

From the Mayo Clinic website:
"Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can be defined as recurrent episodes of anxiety and panic in reaction to a past experience that was overwhelming at both sensory and emotional levels. The individual was unable to process and assimilate the experience, and the emotional trauma becomes repressed, only to reoccur in the future. "

Note the key word "recurrent". Obviously the objective of therapy is to enable the sufferer to assimilate and process these memories so that the trauma doesn't keep recurring, but from the little I've read (like, just now) it's very difficult to do this effectively, and many PTSD sufferers go on having relapses all their lives. A good real life example would be Romeo Dallaire, the UN peacekeeping commander who was forced by his superiors to stand by helplessly and watch during the genocide in Uganda.

From a story-telling point of view it's more satisfying, post conflict-resolution, to think that Cloud's been healed once and for all and is all better now. The reality isn't so tidy. And that's why I find ACC believable.

I don't think that means Tifa's efforts, and Cloud's rebuilding of himself, were a waste. Maybe he'll keep relapsing, but he's a whole person now with a good understanding of himself, able to function on an equal footing with other persons.

Can I add that one of the things I really love about this game is that it proves these big questions that are open to so many different interpretations? How dull it would be if there were only one right answer!

 

[Tifabelle]

aaah. Does reality have any place in fiction?

Personally, I think what makes a great character is relatability (is this a word? spell check tells me no. relate-ability?) while still being something more than average. Cloud is this type of character. Tifa & Aerith both this type of character. And what appeals to me about Tifa & Cloud's relationship is that it's very real.

Cloud's deal in AC/C is very believable. Yes, people have problems. And life after tragedy is never a smooth road.

Now, is it ideal? Is it what fans expected to happen to their beloved characters? Perhaps not. But that's a different issue!

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't hate Cloud, but he's not close to a favorite of mine either. He's just 'meh' to me. He's had some cool moments, I like that he's awkward and sort of distant, but not to the annoying degree that Squall was. Squall didn't really even have any valid reasons, he was just a dick. Cloud lost his friends, his family, his home town, was experimented on, disappointed the people he loves (or at least felt like he did) and still own up to it in the end. Sure it took the help of his friends to snap him out of it, but everyone needs that sometimes. I respect him, but I do find him to be a bit boring and that's my opinion. There's nothing too outstanding about him, I find other characters like Zack much more interesting. Zack because he's so cheerful and had passion, tried his damndest and never gave up, never had that moping period (again I don't blame Cloud for that), but merely became more badass and self sacrificing because of his experiences. Not mention he was one hell of a friend. He was never cold to anyone (even Yuffie who was annoying as FUCK at her age), and inspired a lot of people (like Aerith). The same is the case for any other FF hero, maybe minus Squall and Tidus. Of course that's all my opinion. ;P

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I mean yeah, survivor guilt, seeing his mother burn alive, losing his only friend, indirectly causing Aerith's death, dooming the world, I would totally understand it if he never recovered from all this. If he remained in that wheelchair for the rest of his life I would totally get that.

This is not what happened. Cloud did find the strength to move on, in fact Mako stopped being a problem to him, he was mentally stronger after all those things then back when he hadn't suffered oh so much loss yet. Maybe not the most believable character arc but it IS what they had done in FFVII. They totally committed to Cloud having come out of the ordeal stronger then he was before and AC wanted to do the exact opposite thing.

Just wanted to point out, Cloud did find the strength to move on during the OG (with an ass-load of help from Tifa of course), but he moved on during a crisis. He had an extremely important goal to focus on, and a time critical one at that (story-wise anyway, I took a couple months breeding frakkin' chocobos there myself). It'd be easy for someone like Cloud to stop looking back and focus on the here and now, and thus prevent ones strength from waning during such an event.

But then the crisis was over. We won. Now we get to think about what the victory cost us. All that survivor's guilt comes rolling right back in. Then he adds additional guilt when he can't figure out a way to save this kid he adopted with Tifa. Then he gets sick himself. And being Cloud, he sucks at telling people what exactly is wrong at any given moment and thus bottles it up inside.

Yeah, I understand why Cloud was so depressed for most of AC/C. I'd have been happier to see him get over it and be the Cloud I saw ending the OG a little sooner, but I get it. He should have talked to Tifa a bit sooner (especially since she knew part of what was wrong anyway, with that "Did we lose to our memories?" moment she had).

Maybe he should have asked Barret for advice. Sure his solution to his own emotional issues was to fire his gun-arm randomly into the air while screaming, but at least he got it out of his system while seeking out his means of atonement and so on

 

[Kobato]

I love OG Cloud, but ACC/ DOC/ Dissidia/ KH not so much. Like others have said, it's annoying how Cloud sorts everything out in FF VII, Tifa helps him recover his true identity, and he begins to settle with the loss of Zack and Aeris, and stop grieving from his past and his mistakes. Then ACC comes along, and then they turn Cloud into some cute, puppy eyed bishie boy. / rollseyes. I Also hate Cloud in Dissidia, Tiff already knows this, but in Dissidia I just feel like, he's a total bore. He has no desire, no emotion, he's just.. meh. When he dies, he's just like, " Well okay, I'm dead... " If Chaos killed me and told me that I was going to spend eternity in hell, I would be screaming, crying, and yelling in fear. xD I don't know whether to blame Steve Burton or SE for that though.

In Dissidia, I just want him to dress up as a girl, say " Let's mosey " ! and do squats cheerfully. I love OG Cloud, because really he's not a perfect hero, he's not like superman who has no flaws, he makes errors, he screws up, he's easily used by others, and he has low self- esteem. I also hate his AC clothes, they look extremely strange. Who wears a half cape black thing ?? xD
The newer Cloud reminds me more of Vincent, than 'Cloud- Cloud'. Makes mistakes and regrets them, forever and forever and ever. Still, I will always love the original Cloud, and his cute spiky hair, purple Solider uniform, and his Lets mosey attitude <3

RIP OG Cloud. 97- 04



I also hate AC Tifa, and Dissidia Tifa too. In Dissidia her voice sounds so strange, and when she finds out that Kain is a traitor, I thought that trusting him straight away naively, was very un- Tifa like, I picture her keeping her thoughts and feelings inside, and hoping that Kain isn't a traitor, not " I TRUST YOU, BECAUSE WE'RE FRIENDS ".
Also I hate this new thing SE seems to be doing with Tifa, how they make her find Sephiroth, she gets in trouble, and theeeen Cloud comes in to save the day. Wtf, stop trying to make Tifa a damsel. Also when Cloud meets Sephiroth in Dissidia and AC he's just like " Gasp " ! Where's the angry Cloud, that would shake in rage and fear whenever Sephy came along to mess around with his head ?

Also I hate the newer fans who hate the OG Cloud, because OMG he dresses up as a girl. Noooo, my love for emo Cloud is forever ruined/ sarcasm.

 

[Roger]

Just wanted to point out, Cloud did find the strength to move on during the OG (with an ass-load of help from Tifa of course), but he moved on during a crisis. He had an extremely important goal to focus on, and a time critical one at that (story-wise anyway, I took a couple months breeding frakkin' chocobos there myself). It'd be easy for someone like Cloud to stop looking back and focus on the here and now, and thus prevent ones strength from waning during such an event.

But then the crisis was over. We won. Now we get to think about what the victory cost us. All that survivor's guilt comes rolling right back in. Then he adds additional guilt when he can't figure out a way to save this kid he adopted with Tifa. Then he gets sick himself. And being Cloud, he sucks at telling people what exactly is wrong at any given moment and thus bottles it up inside.

So when they said "you need to be strong" they meant "you need an extremely temporary goal to focus on so you drive all your rampant self-loathing, doubts and insecurities to the back of your mind. After the initial week or so, you can go back to thinking you're below worthless no prob."

That's what you took from Cloud's explanation?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So when they said "you need to be strong" they meant "you need an extremely temporary goal to focus on so you drive all your rampant self-loathing, doubts and insecurities to the back of your mind. After the initial week or so, you can go back to thinking you're below worthless no prob."

That's what you took from Cloud's explanation?

To be fair, it was an extremely important temporary goal. Looking any further into the future was something they might all have repressed because they were probably going to die, and even if they didn't die, the world was going to end if they failed.

And we have no way of knowing whether the original designers injected much thought into what the characters' lives were going to be like post-game, either.

So, while I don't agree with your choice of words, as far as the basic sentiment goes - "be strong for now, for this; nothing else matters" - then, yeah, that is how I read it.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^ This sums it up pretty well for me.

 

[Terrafig]

Thanks for responding, Tifabelle. I was going to reply, but it turned into redundancy and Ultimania hate . When I start arguing with official material, I just start to look like an ass.

I'll just say that this

But wasn't it Cloud's weak will (etc) that made him succumb to the mako in the first place? Actually twice: when trying for SOLDIER and then as an experiment.

was what got it started. I assumed you were trying to say that, if Cloud is weak-willed, it makes sense for him to behave the way he does in AC.

I'm not dissatisfied with AC for restarting Cloud's character, just for a sense of "the planet's still dying, Jenova's still got puppets, and we might as well have failed" that permeates the entire thing.

As for the larger question as a whole, sure AC takes him through his character development again, which is one thing, but I don't think the starting points match either. AC made me think that the OG contained the whole Zack debacle just so Cloud wouldn't mope all the time, I think it's worth more than that. I'm not exactly pleased with it. Sure, Cloud can be depressed, but I'd be more convinced if he we weren't destroyed and completely morose.

In response to EG and Licorice, isn't Geostigma also a crisis?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm not dissatisfied with AC for restarting Cloud's character, just for a sense of "the planet's still dying, Jenova's still got puppets, and we might as well have failed" that permeates the entire thing.

A bit like fighting the First World War and then having to fight the Second World War....

As for the larger question as a whole, sure AC takes him through his character development again, which is one thing, but I don't think the starting points match either. AC made me think that the OG contained the whole Zack debacle just so Cloud wouldn't mope all the time, I think it's worth more than that. I'm not exactly pleased with it. Sure, Cloud can be depressed, but I'd be more convinced if he we weren't destroyed and completely morose.

Fair point. Even when you're depressed, you should still be the same person.

In response to EG and Licorice, isn't Geostigma also a crisis?

I don't understand the question.

 

[ForceStealer]

Geostigma is a crisis he can't fight though.

 

[Masamune]

Geostigma is a crisis he can't fight though.

Yes, Cloud's circumstances are different post-FFVII, but the trials and tribulations of the OG should have made him a stronger person mentally and emotionally. When the planet's fate was sealed, he still led everyone into the unknown, against all odds to defeat one of the greatest evils to threaten the world. It was a life-changing experience for Cloud, and should have taught him never to give up hope and stand by the ones who need you most.

After FFVII, he has responsibilities, he has a family, one of whom is going through the exact same experience as him. Running out on Tifa and leaving her to hold the baby makes this Cloud well, frankly, a douche. I expected better from him.

 

[ForceStealer]

Though, by his own admission, he went on that impossible quest to give Sephiroth a big fat middle finger, not through some grandiose wish to save the world.

 

[Masamune]

Though, by his own admission, he went on that impossible quest to give Sephiroth a big fat middle finger, not through some grandiose wish to save the world.

What's your point?

The odds were still stacked against him. He still had to battle through the bowels of the earth and defeat his ultimate nemesis, who was on the verge of becoming a god. All while the planet could be destroyed at any moment.

AC Cloud would have pissed himself and hidden inside the Gold Saucer.

 

[ForceStealer]

No he wouldn't have. He might have complained about it, but at no point did he hesitate to draw his swords and kill shit. Even he's aware that he's good at that. But there's nothing he could do about Geostigma.

When he tried to send Reno to go after the children, yes he was afraid he couldn't do it, but it was more that he wanted to talk Rufus more than anything else. He's obsessed with needing a reason to fight, which I admit is a more recent development, but's not pissing himself and hiding in Gold Saucer either.

 

[Mariketsu]

Agreeing with Tea-Chan, Tifabelle, Alex Strife, and LicoriceAllsorts (and others) here.

Imo, Cloud is not as weak-willed as he may seem. Yeah he has weak spots, like everyone does, but I think his biggest weakness (or one of them) is his friends. The OG has demonstrated that with his friends around him, he's stronger and has a lot more confidence in himself. I'd go as far to say that Cloud actually has a very strong will, when he needs it to be (which may account for why he's eventually able to turn the tables on Sephiroth when they fight) but it's not something he exhibits on a daily basis as it is moreso a reflex. I've always gotten a vibe that Cloud's will to live is a large part of what drives him, and his friends are the other part of it.

As for AC/C, I feel it's perfectly understandable that he became withdrawn and isolated, especially after all he's been through. It's only been 2 years and with everything he suffered, that's not something one can easily get over. Yes, he came to terms with a good bit of it at the end of the OG, but contracting the Stigma only started to bring back bad memories (i.e. Aerith and Zack deaths beginning to haunt him) and he felt lost, not knowing what else to do. To me, it's just like Cloud to leave for awhile and keep to himself as it's how he may deal with things as well as not wanting his friends to get hurt, so he keeps them at a distance. He's just afraid of being unable to protect those he cares for and ends up pushing everyone away when he feels lost and backed into a corner, which happens to be a flaw as a character.

I feel the end of AC/C showed that Cloud was finally starting to let go of the past the way he should and becoming stronger:

"2 years ago.. Think of the strength we all had when we fought that last battle. It's only been a couple of years, but already that feeling is gone.. but Cloud, I think he's found it again."

This line Tifa said in AC/C, symbolizes to me that Cloud knows that, even if he's fighting the battle alone, his friends are always there with him, even if they aren't physically, even Zack and Aerith. I feel Cloud has begun to learn that he's never alone, even if he feels lost, which I believe is another step to dealing with his issues better.

This is just my opinion tho .

~ Raz

 

[Masamune]

No he wouldn't have. He might of complained about it, but at no point did he hesitate to draw his swords and kill shit. Even he's aware that he's good at that. But there's nothing he could do about Geostigma.

Actually, that was more a case of simply defending himself. When he was faced with the first opportunity of manning up (i.e. rescuing Denzel & co.) he wimped out of it.

When he tried to send Reno to go after the children, yes he was afraid he couldn't do it, but it was more that he wanted to talk Rufus more than anything else.

Quite the opposite. Speaking to Rufus was clearly just a excuse for him to avoid his obligations because...bawwww?

He's obsessed with needing a reason to fight, which I admit is a more recent development, but's not pissing himself and hiding in Gold Saucer either.

Cloud isn't obsessed with needing a reason to fight. That's more Compilation lies, trying to make him so deep and misunderstood. In the OG he tells everyone to find out their motivation, sure, but that was a pep talk on the eve of the final battle.

Oh, and I should come back to this:

Though, by his own admission, he went on that impossible quest to give Sephiroth a big fat middle finger, not through some grandiose wish to save the world.

Cloud: I know why I'm fighting. I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that.

Cloud: ......I'm the reason why Meteor is falling towards us. That's why I have to do something in my power to fight this thing.

 

[Seunia]

Thank you all for your long and meaningful replies I came to realize how well-made the characters are. I mean, we´ve covered 3 pages of this thread with our opinions and speculations.

I think that Squareenix overdid it with Cloud´s suffering. I think that his life so far was WAY too hard. It´s a miracle he´s okay. And he´s lucky to have friends to support him. I believe he´s gonna be fine.....I know, I know he´s virtual.....but still. I wish him good luck.

And one more thing: I don´t think that KH has something to do with the Compilation. And so the KH Cloud.

 

[Seunia]

Agreeing with Tea-Chan, Tifabelle, Alex Strife, and LicoriceAllsorts (and others) here.

Imo, Cloud is not as weak-willed as he may seem. Yeah he has weak spots, like everyone does, but I think his biggest weakness (or one of them) is his friends. The OG has demonstrated that with his friends around him, he's stronger and has a lot more confidence in himself. I'd go as far to say that Cloud actually has a very strong will, when he needs it to be (which may account for why he's eventually able to turn the tables on Sephiroth when they fight) but it's not something he exhibits on a daily basis as it is moreso a reflex. I've always gotten a vibe that Cloud's will to live is a large part of what drives him, and his friends are the other part of it.

As for AC/C, I feel it's perfectly understandable that he became withdrawn and isolated, especially after all he's been through. It's only been 2 years and with everything he suffered, that's not something one can easily get over. Yes, he came to terms with a good bit of it at the end of the OG, but contracting the Stigma only started to bring back bad memories (i.e. Aerith and Zack deaths beginning to haunt him) and he felt lost, not knowing what else to do. To me, it's just like Cloud to leave for awhile and keep to himself as it's how he may deal with things as well as not wanting his friends to get hurt, so he keeps them at a distance. He's just afraid of being unable to protect those he cares for and ends up pushing everyone away when he feels lost and backed into a corner, which happens to be a flaw as a character.

I feel the end of AC/C showed that Cloud was finally starting to let go of the past the way he should and becoming stronger:

"2 years ago.. Think of the strength we all had when we fought that last battle. It's only been a couple of years, but already that feeling is gone.. but Cloud, I think he's found it again."

This line Tifa said in AC/C, symbolizes to me that Cloud knows that, even if he's fighting the battle alone, his friends are always there with him, even if they aren't physically, even Zack and Aerith. I feel Cloud has begun to learn that he's never alone, even if he feels lost, which I believe is another step to dealing with his issues better.

This is just my opinion tho .

~ Raz

Very well said.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Is this thread over, then?

Because I wanted to say that we're all kind of assuming, at the beginning of AC, that Cloud has abandoned Tifa and the kids, never to return, and is intending to die FOREVER ALONE, when he could, in fact, just have gone off for a while to clear his head and try to get some perspective on shit. Tifa seems pretty understanding about it, and she knows him better than anyone. Of course, he hasn't told her yet that he's dying and that his death will be horrible and ugly and when it's over she's going to be left alone to run a bar and look after the two needy traumatised kids who were dumped on them. That's a pretty tough piece of news to break, and Cloud doesn't exactly have a way with words. Maybe he's camping out in Aerith's church while he works out what to say?

edit PS, It's not like he ran off with Reno another woman or is gambling the kids' milk money away at the Gold Saucer. To me, that's the definition of a douchebag.

 

[Seunia]

Is this thread over, then?

Because I wanted to say that we're all kind of assuming, at the beginning of AC, that Cloud has abandoned Tifa and the kids, never to return, and is intending to die FOREVER ALONE, when he could, in fact, just have gone off for a while to clear his head and try to get some perspective on shit. Tifa seems pretty understanding about it, and she knows him better than anyone. Of course, he hasn't told her yet that he's dying and that his death will be horrible and ugly and when it's over she's going to be left alone to run a bar and look after the two needy traumatised kids who were dumped on them. That's a pretty tough piece of news to break, and Cloud doesn't exactly have a way with words. Maybe he's camping out in Aerith's church while he works out what to say?

No, no. It´s not over yet. I just wanted to thank you all. I wanted to make sure I won´t forget to do that. I hope you´ll continue to write your opinions.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

On the subject of Cloud's weakness of will:

Cloud seems to me to be weak willed when he is on his own. He has incredible force of will, enough to overcome Sephiroth's brainwashing and shit... but only when he is using it for the benefit of others. Its all over his history. Example: when he tried to get into SOLDIER, he was too weak of will to go through the process without succumbing to Mako Poisoning and thus they denied him. But that same Cloud can suddenly pick up a sword and absolutely wreck an enemies shit if he needs to protect someone else. He's been like that pretty well the entire time the character has existed.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

On the subject of Cloud's weakness of will:

Cloud seems to me to be weak willed when he is on his own. He has incredible force of will, enough to overcome Sephiroth's brainwashing and shit... but only when he is using it for the benefit of others. Its all over his history. Example: when he tried to get into SOLDIER, he was too weak of will to go through the process without succumbing to Mako Poisoning and thus they denied him. But that same Cloud can suddenly pick up a sword and absolutely wreck an enemies shit if he needs to protect someone else. He's been like that pretty well the entire time the character has existed.

 

[Mariketsu]

On the subject of Cloud's weakness of will:

Cloud seems to me to be weak willed when he is on his own. He has incredible force of will, enough to overcome Sephiroth's brainwashing and shit... but only when he is using it for the benefit of others. Its all over his history. Example: when he tried to get into SOLDIER, he was too weak of will to go through the process without succumbing to Mako Poisoning and thus they denied him. But that same Cloud can suddenly pick up a sword and absolutely wreck an enemies shit if he needs to protect someone else. He's been like that pretty well the entire time the character has existed.

I agree there, EG, which is why I said before, I believe he's begun to learn in AC/C, that he can still be just as strong against Sephiroth alone, knowing his friends are still with him in spirit. I felt he was beginning to mature in that department which will only make him stronger in the future.

~ Raz

 

[Masamune]

Because I wanted to say that we're all kind of assuming, at the beginning of AC, that Cloud has abandoned Tifa and the kids, never to return, and is intending to die FOREVER ALONE, when he could, in fact, just have gone off for a while to clear his head and try to get some perspective on shit. Tifa seems pretty understanding about it, and she knows him better than anyone. Of course, he hasn't told her yet that he's dying and that his death will be horrible and ugly and when it's over she's going to be left alone to run a bar and look after the two needy traumatised kids who were dumped on them. That's a pretty tough piece of news to break, and Cloud doesn't exactly have a way with words. Maybe he's camping out in Aerith's church while he works out what to say?

Or... not?

It's made evident that Cloud is shunning everyone in his life, which is why he has a bunch of unanswered calls from all his friends, and why Tifa gets pissed at him for being an attention whore. He was clearly trying to isolate himself from everyone until Geostigma finished him off, because he's "no good to anyone" etc. Which contradicts all this about talk about Cloud breaking down 'cos he's so ronery. Like I said, he has a family depending on him, he has friends who constantly keep in touch with him, despite doing their own thing. After everything he experienced with those people, you'd expect him to have grown up and realized these people have an unbreakable bond. But no, he's all alone in this world.

Two needy traumatized kids? Denzel & Marlene show more maturity in AC than Cloud does. Shit, Marlene was covering at a bar at four years old. The only needy traumatized kid Tifa has is Cloud.

edit PS, It's not like he ran off with Reno another woman or is gambling the kids' milk money away at the Gold Saucer. To me, that's the definition of a douchebag.

No, just ditches his family and denies them any emotional support, at a time when his woman is trying to balance running a business whilst caring for their terminally ill son.

But it's Cloud. He has issues. Boo hoo. It's not his fault. :sadface:

I also firmly believe there's some serious Halo Effect going on here. I wonder if Cloud's girlfriends would be queuing up to defend him if he wasn't a blonde bishounen and instead looked like....say....Moe Szyslak?