What if I was in the director’s chair? ~ My Part 2 Outline

cold_spirit

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AKA
Alex T
I want to be clear from the start, the following is not what I think Square Enix will actually do in future remake parts. Instead, I want to answer for myself "What if I was in the director’s chair?" This mental exercise is just for fun. I will abandon all expectations for Part 2 when it finally releases and listen to the story the creators want to tell, not the one I want to hear.

Let's inspect Remake’s chapter structure before diving in. Each chapter in Remake introduces a new location. These locations are self-contained and most are only visited once. The only exception to this is Chapter 14, which takes place entirely across three locations from earlier in the game. Here’s a quick breakdown to show what I mean:

Chapter 1 - Mako Reactor 1
Chapter 2 - Sector 8 plate
Chapter 3 - Sector 7 slums
Chapter 4 - Sector 7 plate
Chapter 5 - Corkscrew Tunnel
Chapter 6 - Sector 4 underplate
Chapter 7 - Mako Reactor 5
Chapter 8 - Sector 5 slums
Chapter 9 - Wall Market
Chapter 10 - Slum sewers
Chapter 11 - Train Graveyard
Chapter 12 - Sector 7 pillar
Chapter 13 - Sector 7 underground facility
Chapter 14 - Sector 5 slums, Sector 6 slums, and slum sewers
Chapter 15 - Sector 7 plate aftermath
Chapter 16 - Shinra Building (Lower floors)
Chapter 17 - Shinra Building (Top floors)
Chapter 18 - Midgar Expressway

All "town" chapters in Remake (e.g. chapters 3, 8, and 9) have complimentary "battle areas". These battle areas break up the story-heavy nature of towns with combat scenarios. For example, the Sector 7 slums in Chapter 3 features the Abandoned Talagger Factory as a battle area for sidequests. When thinking about chapters in future parts, a battle area must be considered for each town. Kalm can not just be a chapter where you talk to NPCs and buy equipment. There needs to be a combat scenario to keep players engaged with the game’s core mechanics. In Kalm's case, the surrounding badland could serve as a suitable battle area for sidequests. I would continue centering chapters around locations. In other words, future parts wouldn’t be open world.

Let’s talk about Zack. I would make him a playable character starring in his own chapters. From a combat perspective he’d be a jack-of-all-trades, primarily because he’d be fighting alone. One aspect from Crisis Core I would love to explore is Zack’s ability to mimic limit breaks from other characters. In that game, Cloud’s Meteorain became Zack’s Meteor Shots and Aerith’s Healing Wind became Healing Wave. The idea here is to have Zack learn abilities as he encounters new characters, replacing the existing system of learning abilities from weapons (there’s no way I’d let Zack equip anything other than the Buster Sword).

From a story perspective, I’ve written at length in the past about what I believe is happening in Remake. I won’t reiterate all that here. Looking forward, my idea is to use Aerith's disappearance in the Terrier timeline as Zack's motivation to pursue Sephiroth. Additionally, the mako-poisoned Cloud would be drawn to Sephiroth due to the power of reunion. Using that as his lead, Zack would travel with Cloud, partly to keep his friend safe and partly to avenge/rescue Aerith. Their travels would take them along the same route that the main party is traveling in the Beagle timeline. This new story involving Zack would be shown in three parts: first in Midgar, then in Under Junon, and finally in Gongaga for the finale. Further discrepancies between the Beagle and Terrier timelines would be shown as well. For example, Zack would see Jessie on TV performing at the Gold Saucer and Gongaga would not be scarred by a past mako reactor explosion. At the game’s finale, the party and Shinra (in the Beagle timeline), and Zack and Cloud (in the Terrier timeline) would all converge at Gongaga, each in pursuit of Sephiroth for different reasons. It’s here that the next step in Sephiroth’s grand new design would be revealed.

Continuing the chapter count from Remake, here's my breakdown for Part 2:

Chapter 19 - Nibelheim Incident part 1
Chapter 20 - Nibelheim Incident part 2
Chapter 21 - Kalm / Badland
Chapter 22 - Chocobo Farm / Wetland
Chapter 23 - Mythril Mine
Chapter 24 - Midgar (Zack chapter in Terrier timeline)
Chapter 25 - Fort Condor
Chapter 26 - Ninja Girl
Chapter 27 - Under Junon / Polluted Coast
Chapter 28 - Junon
Chapter 29 - Cruise Liner
Chapter 30 - Under Junon (Zack chapter in Terrier timeline)
Chapter 31 - Costa del Sol / Vacation Coast
Chapter 32 - Mt Corel / North Corel
Chapter 33 - Gold Saucer
Chapter 34 - Desert Prison
Chapter 35 - Gongaga / Jungle
Chapter 36 - Gongaga (Finale in Terrier timeline)

A few notes:
  • The Nibelheim Incident's opening truck scene would be greatly expanded into its own chapter. After the initial monster attack, Cloud and Sephiroth would be forced to clear out a nearby dragon's den before continuing their journey to Nibelheim. It’s here that Sephiroth would teach players the game’s core mechanics. This chapter would also serve as the game's demo, similar to Mako Reactor 1 in Remake.
  • Kalm would be the first truly explorable town with sidequests, coincidently placed at the third chapter just like the Sector 7 slums in Remake.
  • A chocobo riding minigame would be developed to cover the party's escape from the Midgar Zolom, coincidently placed at the forth chapter just like the first motorbike minigame in Remake.
  • Dungeons (e.g. Mythril Mine) would be given their own chapter to provide padding between towns.
  • Zack’s chapters would be purposefully placed one-third and two-thirds way into the story, slowly building up the mystery.
  • Fort Condor would not have a RTS minigame like the original game. Instead, the party would be directly involved with defending the condor using the game’s core mechanics. Fortunately, the RTS component has already been moved to INTERmission with the Fort Condor board game.
  • Recruiting Yuffie would be a mandatory event that takes place on the lengthy road between Fort Condor and Junon. It’s here where she’d steal the party's materia. The benefit of moving this iconic scenario to Part 2 would be to free up Wutai in the next part, which I imagine will be vastly different due to the escalating conflict between Wutai, Avalanche, and Shinra.
  • Under Junon and Junon would be separated into different chapters due to the degree in which their aesthetics differ, similar to how the Mako Reactor 5 bombing mission was separated into three visually distinct chapters in Remake.
  • Junon would be Part 2’s halfway point, similar to Wall Market in Remake. Likewise, Junon would feature a number of activities such as an underground coliseum.
  • Affection points would be implemented throughout the game to determine who the player spends time with at the Gold Saucer, similar to the resolution scenes in Remake.
  • The Battle Square would be the game’s second “coliseum”, similar to the Shinra Combat Simulator in Remake.
  • A second chocobo riding minigame would be developed to cover the party's escape from the Desert Prison, similar to the second motorbike minigame in Remake.
  • Obtaining the buggy would allow players to travel to previous towns and complete new side quests. This would function similarly to the chocobo stables in Remake.
  • Gongaga in the Terrier timeline would have an industrial aesthetic and culture. This would be in sharp contrast to Gongaga in the Beagle timeline where the people are deeply wounded by the past mako reactor explosion.
I’ve played through this game many times in my mind. I can see the party evading traps set by Elena in the Mythril Mine. I can hear Barret commenting on the contrast between Under Junon's polluted coast and Costa del Sol’s clean beaches. I can imagine the party sitting around a campfire in the wilderness, the buggy parked in the background. Each location would be comparable in size with locations from Remake. Most importantly, this game would be a worthy $70 experience.

For future-future parts, Part 3 would cover Cosmo Canyon to the Northern Crater and Part 4 would cover the Weapon attack on Junon to Meteorfall. It’s here where I’ll be my most controversial: Each future part would deviate further from the original game, not unlike the Rebuild of Evangelion series. Part 4 especially would feel like a totally new experience. By then, almost all of FFVII’s world and characters would be established and feel familiar to fans. It’s the story’s outcome that would change dramatically. I won’t dare detail here what I think should happen. Most people are caught up on whether Aerith will still die (for the record, she’ll live). My sights are set a bit further. All I’ll say is that if “loss” and “vengeance” are some of the core themes of the original game, then this new series for our current time (and “last hurrah” from the original developers) should be about “catharsis” and “forgiveness”. And when I say that, know that I’m specifically looking at Cloud and Sephiroth.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
That's interesting and well thought out. Only thing is I'm against anything with Zack's Terrier timeline directly being shown side-by-side the current plot until it's either near the end after Sephiroth's summoning with the Black Materia or it's a separate DLC. It's far too significant and massive to just have sandwiched in-between parts of the main story, which would end up being confusing and discordant. They kept it as a bookend for Part 1 and Intermission for a reason, since it's set up of a different plot thread entirely, and ping ponging it with the main foreground narrative would be messy, not to mention confusing.
 

Smoothie King

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Pat
Tremendous effort on your part. My compliments. Te salud. With that said, this isn’t the first time I’ve seen Gongaga thrown in as an end point and I just can’t see it. I’ve said from the beginning, Part II should end at the Forgotten City, and I’m confident it will. The hyperbole about seeing Part II in two years is long gone. This is going to take a long time to finish and they’re going to have to make it as epic as possible. You can’t end Part II in Gongaga after a four year production cycle. They’ll never finish it.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Cold:

Intriguing stuff! I especially like your final paragraph...very curious to hear more about that, actually, especially how you feel catharsis and forgiveness will be key. It reminds me a bit of something I found interesting in an article here: https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...hread-open-spoilers.22538/page-63#post-919662

Smoothie:

So you think P2 is going to cover an expanded, modern/HD version of

Kalm
Nibelheim flashback
Chocobo farm/marshes
Mithril Mines
Junon lower and Junon upper/Shinra base
Boat ride and boss
Fort Condor
Costa Del Sol
Corel
Gold Saucer
Corel Prisons/desert
Gongaga
Cosmo Canyon
Gi Caves
Nibelheim Vincent and Sephiroth stuff
Rocket Town
Gold Saucer date/keystone stuff
Temple of the Ancients
Bone Village
Sleeping Forest
Forgotten Capital

?

When do you think this would release?
 
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cold_spirit

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AKA
Alex T
Intriguing stuff! I especially like your final paragraph...very curious to hear more about that, actually, especially how you feel catharsis and forgiveness will be key.

I write these threads with full intention of not replying to a single comment. With this mentality, I ensure my ideas are airtight, perfectly conveyed. This thread in particular started in July of last year to give you gauge on how long this process takes.

Though for this one instance I will respond, if only because I wanted to respond to a post of yours from a few months ago, but didn't have the time:

There are some interesting examples in recent times. Aside from the new Matrix and the reaction the Polygon writer and probably others had to Neo and Trinity, there is also the Evangelion rebuild, and I'm even reminded of something very recent...a certain scene in the latest Spider-Man that builds off a death from a previous film. I won't get into that due to spoilers of course, but people will know what I mean if they have seen it or read about it.

The three movies in your post (The Matrix Resurrections, Evangelion 3.0+1.0, and Spider-Man: No Way Home) were exactly the three examples I had in mind one morning when thinking about the future of this remake series. I thought to myself, "Roundhouse beat me to it!"

--- MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE ABOVE MOVIES FROM HERE ON OUT FOLKS ---

What do these three movies have in common with FFVII? For starters, the timeframe of their initial releases. Neon Genesis Evangelion began airing in 1995, Final Fantasy VII released in 1997, The Matrix graced audiences in 2001, and Sam Raimi's Spider-Man followed in 2002. Between the mid 90's and early 00's, these titles changed the way people perceived anime, video games, action movies, and superheroes. The next coincidence is that each title received some "continuation" in the 20's. And what common theme do these new titles are share? Healing.

At the end of Evangelion 3.0+1.0, Shinji resolves the trauma between himself, his father, Rei, and Asuka. In Spider-Man: No Way Home, the Spider-Men from previous theatrical series are able to save a handful of their respective villains, most notably Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin. And finally we have The Matrix Resurrections, which reverts the deaths of Neo and Trinity and places control of the matrix, of that world's entire future, in their hands.

One has to ask themselves: "Why is it that all these landmark series are re-evaluating themselves?" "Why is it that they all choose to reverse the trauma from their initial stories?" "Why is it that they focus on healing?"

Time. The answer is simply time.

20 years or more have passed since these characters first took root in our hearts and minds. Though the credits rolled long ago, we lived on. We continued to process their emotions, their situations, their actions. With rationalization came acceptance, and with acceptance came healing. These new titles reflect that. They reflect the end versions of these characters that exist in our hearts.

Cloud vs Sephiroth is quite possibly the biggest rivalry to exist in gaming. We've seen them battle again and again and again. But the end of conflict is not in victory, it's in release. “Catharsis” and “forgiveness” as I wrote it. There is no where else to take these characters. Time will win again, as it always does.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
A more apt comparison that actually involves the parties involved with FFVII Remake and showcases their recent writing would be Stranger of Paradise Final Fantasy Origin. Which also is a celebratory anniversary work that revisits the original Final Fantasy from over 30 years ago and tells it in a new modern context.

That's a more direct comparison that showcases their writing direction, ability to tell a renewed adaptive story, and how closely they remain to the source material and it's original direction while injecting additional new elements to the story. No need to compare media apples to oranges when the apples are all right here and their work is still going on now.
 
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Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Very interesting, Cold. I hadn't even considered the possibility of forgiveness in this context, hmm.

Mako, that is also an example that would be fun to dig into, although I haven't played that game so can't really do so.
 

LNK

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Nate
You can’t end Part II in Gongaga after a four year production cycle. They’ll never finish it.

This is why I'm hesitant on Gongaga being a realistic ending for part 2. To my knowledge, these people would like to finish this series before they're too old. If that is the case, I still think this will be a trilogy.
 

Golden Ear

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M. Prod
I think it will be a trilogy and here is what I think will be in Part 2.
I think it will go to the Reunion but in order to do it they will save locations for part 3 and possible condense some things.

Flashback

Kalm and Plains

Chocobo Farm and Marsh

Mythril Mines

We will Meet Yuffie next but not go to Fort Condor (save for part 3)
Lower Junon and Upper Barracks

Cargo Ship

Costa de Sol

Gold Saucer might be done in a single visit this time
Barret's backstory and getting buggy

(Not go to Gongaga, save for Part 3)

Cosmo Canyon and Cave of Gi

Nibelheim, Mansion and Mt Nibel

(Not go to Wutai, save for Part 3)

Rocket Town
Tiny Bronco will be high tech compared to OG and we'll fast travel to Temple of the Ancients with it

The Temple of the Ancients, Forgotten City and The Reunion at the North Crater will be somewhat blended together. Or possible streamlined in a way so they events happen more consecutively. For example the Temple of the Ancients might be relocated on the northern continent so its close to the Forgotten city.

I think this last section the story will probably veer off the most.

I think Icicle Inn and a lot of the snowy parts will be saved for Part 3 as well. I'm not sure how they will get to the Northern Crater, maybe they will climb gaea's cliff or maybe they will fly there somehow.

Aerith will not die at the Forgotten City...

I think this game will come out early 2024 or late 2023 at the very earliest since FFXVi is most likely coming out early 2023.

4 parts seems like way to long if these games are coming out 3-4 years apart.
 

Tetsujin

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Tets
4 parts seems like way to long if these games are coming out 3-4 years apart.

See, I think a trilogy would mean it's actually gonna be bigger intervals between games. I believe we're gonna get the same amount of pizza regardless whether it's gonna be three or four parts, the amount of parts just decides the size of the slice and how much faster they can cut out each individual slice, with the time the entire pizza has to bake in the oven being the same regardless...if that makes sense. :monster:
...it's not a perfect analogy but I wanted to use a pizza for obvious reasons

I think a part 2 that goes beyond Nibelheim all the way to the Forgotten Capital or even the Northern Crater would be quite a bit longer than part 1 and take more time to make as an individual game.
I also think part 4 in that scenario would actually release quite a bit faster than 2 and 3 as that is where you mostly revisit locations, meaning they can recycle tons of assets from the previous games.
 

Tashasaurous

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Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
I don't think it will end at Gongaga. I'm with the people who argue that it'll be Nibelheim, but no later than that.

It would make sense for the second part to end in Nibelhiem, especially it'd be a satisfying shock value to end the game in a semi-cliff-hanger and start the third part in the rebuilt village.
 

Smoothie King

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Pat
Honest question, and I’m not trying to be controversial here. What really happens between Kalm and Nibelheim that warrants a stand-alone game? I’m not talking about the locations in between, which are great but really tell small, contained stories within that area (Cloud/Kalm Barrett/Corel, Red/Cosmo Canyon)? There’s no real story until Temple of the Ancients, Lost City etc. I just can’t see a way where they can avoid spanning that timeframe in Part 2.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I’ve seen Gongaga thrown in as an end point and I just can’t see it. I’ve said from the beginning, Part II should end at the Forgotten City
I'd rather refer this Gongaga to Gongaga Part II where Cloud wakes up AFTER Temple of Ancient incident that also could be the final boss battle. Gongaga is the location where Aerith also left the party. It'd be a good cliffhanger as it ends at the point of the party pursing her and people would wonder about her fate in next part. Even if she still died in Forgotten Capital, certain base of her fans would still buy next part for that. SE wants money, imagine this base doesn't buy Part III when she died at the end of part II.
 
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LNK

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Nate
Didn't the Aerith/Tifa novel cover the cargo ship? Or did it just take place on the cargo ship, while not covering the same events? Hope that makes sense lol

To add: I think ending with Aerith's death/subsequent battle against Jenova is a perfect ending for part 2. Then again, ff15 had one of my favorite endings.
 

Smoothie King

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Pat
Didn't the Aerith/Tifa novel cover the cargo ship? Or did it just take place on the cargo ship, while not covering the same events? Hope that makes sense lol

To add: I think ending with Aerith's death/subsequent battle against Jenova is a perfect ending for part 2. Then again, ff15 had one of my favorite endings.

Just imagine the entire party is reeling and then you’re grieving and staring up at a gigantic snow covered mountain that you have to climb?

::cue credits::

::chefs kiss::
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
I don't think they will get even close to that part, but if they do, they could maybe end on the note of Aerith's fate being changed, hmm.
 

LivingLegacy

Pro Adventurer
That’s a really interesting layout, Cold.

I agree there will be frequent alternating back and forth between timelines. I'd be all for being able to play as Zack. I never had a PSP and never played Crisis Core - so it'd be a treat to finally be able to play as him.

I used to hold to the trilogy format, but I’m starting to think this is gonna be at least four main installments. I just don’t see how they can adequately tell zacks timeline sufficiently without rushing or omitting classic events from the beagle timeline, or vice versa if they go with three, unless the wait times are brutal.

For the flashback, i could see the dragon fight being a cutscene (instead of player-controlled combat) with an overzealous cloud (aka zack) charging out and getting his ass handed to him, while seph slowly follows behind, then slaughters said dragon, then healing a wounded cloud. I’d introduce the combat tutorial as the party climbs Mt. Nibel. Does anyone think we’ll be able to control seph during combat during the climb? At the least, I could see cloud and tifa being used to demonstrate dual techs while seph operates independently, similar to red 13 in pt. 1.

In order to justify starting from scratch from part 1 to part 2, I think yuffie needs to steal the party’s materia while they are in kalm. That would give the player a blank slate to work from while integrating it into the story.

agree with you that kalm will be more than shops and talking. I could see several side quests here, with some combat mixed in with them.

Btw Cold - I’ve mostly been a lurker on these forums for years, but I’ve always enjoyed your threads - how thought-provoking they are, and the ensuing discussion.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Honest question, and I’m not trying to be controversial here. What really happens between Kalm and Nibelheim that warrants a stand-alone game? I’m not talking about the locations in between, which are great but really tell small, contained stories within that area (Cloud/Kalm Barrett/Corel, Red/Cosmo Canyon)? There’s no real story until Temple of the Ancients, Lost City etc. I just can’t see a way where they can avoid spanning that timeframe in Part 2.

The answer, to them, is probably expansion/new material that involves Sephiroth. The fact that you actually meet Sephiroth/his Jenova self or whatever the heck it is in the Nibelheim Mansion gives them a perfect chance to end the part with another (yawn) Sephiroth boss fight, and a new character in Vincent who has his own connection to Sephiroth. The stuff between that can be used to compliment this, like the Jenova encounter on the ship and the entire Kalm flashback of course.
 

Golden Ear

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M. Prod
I think a part 2 that goes beyond Nibelheim all the way to the Forgotten Capital or even the Northern Crater would be quite a bit longer than part 1 and take more time to make as an individual game.
I also think part 4 in that scenario would actually release quite a bit faster than 2 and 3 as that is where you mostly revisit locations, meaning they can recycle tons of assets from the previous games.

For a trilogy I was thinking along the lines of:
Part 2 early 2024
Part 3 around 2027

For 4 parts what time frame did you have in mind?

Something like this?:
Part 2 Early 2024
Part 3 2026
Part 4 2028
 

AerithLives

Pro Adventurer
That's interesting and well thought out. Only thing is I'm against anything with Zack's Terrier timeline directly being shown side-by-side the current plot until it's either near the end after Sephiroth's summoning with the Black Materia or it's a separate DLC. It's far too significant and massive to just have sandwiched in-between parts of the main story, which would end up being confusing and discordant. They kept it as a bookend for Part 1 and Intermission for a reason, since it's set up of a different plot thread entirely, and ping ponging it with the main foreground narrative would be messy, not to mention confusing.

I agree with this. Personally I would have Zack kept out and remained as a secret you discover like in the original. He's always been an annoying and cherpy character and if he had a separate game then Final Fantasy 7 purists like myself could just ignore the intergrade games.
Having two stories run along side each other would be very annoying. Remember how frustrating it was in FF8 with Laguna?
 

Smoothie King

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Pat
I agree with this. Personally I would have Zack kept out and remained as a secret you discover like in the original. He's always been an annoying and cherpy character and if he had a separate game then Final Fantasy 7 purists like myself could just ignore the intergrade games.
Having two stories run along side each other would be very annoying. Remember how frustrating it was in FF8 with Laguna?

I sort of agree with this in that I’m not a big fan of Zack’s. He’s whatever. I’m surprised he’s so popular.

BUT… I loved those Laguna segments in FFVIII.
 
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Roundhouse

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The Laguna segments were awesome.

As for Zack, he is also superb. A genuine 1st Class SOLDIER, a man who defeated an army by himself, the one who brought down Genesis, the one who saved Cloud. The true hero of the tale.
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
Every time I see thoughts on this, I think folks are missing the biggest character that'll factor into Part 2.

The Planet is in greater danger, Fate is broken, time is disjointed. Sephiroth is nastier and freer than ever BUT the Party is also a danger. They killed the Arbiter of Fate, after all. So the Angry Planet is going to wake up our dear friend Genesis and send him after the party. And Sephiroth. He'll be Minerva's big Knight and try and take the good guys down.

This is why we'll go from Nibelheim to Nibelheim. That final confrontation in Nibelheim will see us actually face Genesis as the boss of Remake Part II. We won't be facing Sephiroth each time. Frankly, by the end of the saga, a routinely defeated Sephiroth will feel far too easy and repetitive for the player. Genesis will be fresh, new and add a lot.

CC gave us a scene with Genesis that helped uh... push... Sephiroth over the edge in Nibelheim. Genesis facing down Sephiroth will force Genesis to come to terms with what he did in all this. What his role was. It allows the Nibelheim fight to escalate, get weird, and also allow much of the primary narrative of the OG to take place.

Genesis in Part II also gives us a big, huge reason to revisit Zack (whether as chapters for his own story OR in DLC). He could be party to Genesis in the story, and his story could help us understand the Part II villain on a deeper level.

Genesis, Weiss, and Zack. They have a story together.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Really don't get why people keep thinking this has anything to do with Genesis. It's not like we don't know where he is. He's literally sleeping deep below Midgar. Every character's location thus far has matched their location relative to the moment in the narrative. So why would we see him outside of Midgar when we were just there and we didn't see him in Part 1 or Intermission?

If there was any other chance for him to rightfully appear, it'd be in the return back to Midgar. There's literally tons of characters and stories that fit the actual moments of FFVII and Compilation titles that deserve to be acknowledged and shown instead of something out of place.
 
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