Why did Sephiroth Need his Original Body?

[Max Payne]

Because if he'd simply gotten business done then he wouldn't have gone out like a chump. Same reason dicking around with Cloud most of the game was fucking retarded.

I'm sorry what? I'm still not seeing this logic that rebuilding his body, better, and stronger was some major mistake, and kept him from doing what he needed.

His remote manipulation of Jenova achieved everything he needed while his body became stronger.

A god is supposed to be perfect, isn't it? And Sephiroth was trying to become one. So why not start with a 'perfect' body, instead of an imperfect one that was already destroyed and would take years to be reformed again?
And don't say "vanity". Shapeshifting already takes care of this problem.

Where's the evidence that somehow fusing with Jenova would have been the better course of action? What's "perfect" about Jenova, when she can be destroyed by a gaggle of vagabonds like Avalanche? I ALWAYS thought the biggest purpose behind rebuilding his body was making it stronger than himself. To forge himself into a weapon encompassing all of the power and knowledge of the planet, and jenova, to become greater than both. Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sefiros are both most definitely more powerful than Jenova was.

How was Sephiroth's original body "imperfect"? He was an invincible super soldier that never lost a fight, and was never seriously wounded until he lost the presence of my to pay attention to his environment when he first encounters Jenova.

Even then, you people keep discounting the psychological implications of literally throwing away your body. It goes beyond your appearance, your mind, your psyche is tethered to your body. You, for all intents and purposes are your body.

Separating your body entirely from your spirit, without feeling some sort of attachment to it has to be difficult, not to mention how bizarre and challenging fusing with a foreign body, that is all intents and purposes alien to you has to be.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Not to mention his body serves as a backup in case Jenova was disabled/destroyed/got its ass kicked.

 

[Ite]

Man, sometimes it feels like I played a completely different game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sephiroth in FFVII wasn't the full evolution or realization of Jenova's powers in the first place. I don't understand why one would expect him to fully utilize or understand the extent of his powers when for all intents and purposes, he's driving blind with them.

How do we know this? He seemed to have a good handle on his powers to me.

I know Sephiroth seems that way but he's not actually omniscient. Him not entering the Ancient Temple until it was opened may have been because he couldn't enter until it was opened (due to tricking Shinra and Cloud), him arriving two seconds after Cloud picks up the Black Materia may just be because it took him that long to hover down from wherever he was watching the Temple shrink from. Him killing Aerith when Cloud is down and the partymembers were keeping a closer eye on their leader maybe because he felt it was neccesary. (He wasn't gonna win a straight up fight).

Oh come on. He knew where they were at all times and could have butchered them in their sleep if he'd wanted, or looked like a random nobody in any one of the towns they passed through so he could get close enough to gut them. He was dicking with them all, especially Cloud, the whole time.

As for getting into the Temple, even if Sephiroth needed the Keystone, if AVALANCHE could find it, it's not like Seph couldn't have.

I'm sorry what? I'm still not seeing this logic that rebuilding his body, better, and stronger was some major mistake, and kept him from doing what he needed.

I wouldn't disagree with that logic either if, again, we had any real reason to believe his original body was more powerful than his "extended" body. The only JENOVA battle where Seph was probably really trying to kill them was the Synthesis fight.

Even then, you people keep discounting the psychological implications of literally throwing away your body. It goes beyond your appearance, your mind, your psyche is tethered to your body. You, for all intents and purposes are your body.

Separating your body entirely from your spirit, without feeling some sort of attachment to it has to be difficult, not to mention how bizarre and challenging fusing with a foreign body, that is all intents and purposes alien to you has to be.

Remember, the alien's cells are a part of Seph, so we really don't know that he saw them as foreign to him at all.

In any case, the overall argument made there is another sound suggestion.

 

[Max Payne]

I wouldn't disagree with that logic either if, again, we had any real reason to believe his original body was more powerful than his "extended" body. The only JENOVA battle where Seph was probably really trying to kill them was the Synthesis fight.

What reason is there not to believe it? Safer Sephiroth is more powerful than all of the incarnations of Jenova.

Remember, the alien's cells are a part of Seph, so we really don't know that he saw them as foreign to him at all.

That's not what I mean by foreign.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Safer really wasn't that far beyond Synthesis from a gameplay perspective, which is about the only perspective we have to go on. For that matter, if not for his use of Supernova dragging the fight out, you could end it almost as quickly.

In any case, I still think it's a silly distinction to be trying to establish since the cells of JENOVA seem to essentially belong to him as much as his original body. They might as well be counted as part of him too.

And the distinction becomes sillier still when we consider that his will was powerful enough to hold back Holy even in the absence of a body. It seems to me that any form of JENOVA should pretty much be as powerful as any other where Seph's will is inhabiting that form.

And speaking of which, that brings us back to the matter of his spirit inhabiting the foreign material and what you mean by a foreign body. I guess you must mean that the idea of separating his soul from his body must be a pyschologically frightening -- maybe even a self-diminishing -- experience.

I disagree. He's already had to experience his entire body dissolving in the Lifestream, and his consciousness had already acted through pieces of JENOVA for a while. I think he was used to the whole thing already.

 

[Roger]

Everything in the game, movie, Ultimanias, and interviews, show he had total control over Jenova's abilities, to the point where the creators themselves treat them both as the same entity(using Jenova's name when talking about Sephiroth and vice-versa).
What you are saying goes completelly against everything canon showed us until now.

A god is supposed to be perfect, isn't it? And Sephiroth was trying to become one. So why not start with a 'perfect' body, instead of an imperfect one that was already destroyed and would take years to be reformed again?
And don't say "vanity". Shapeshifting already takes care of this problem.

I'm still not seeing it.
Even from the point-of-view of a psychopath and arrogant guy with a god-complex, it still doesn't make sense.

I'm gonna have to see sources for all this stuff. Sephiroth initially wanted to take back the Planet for mommy back when he thought she was an Ancient, then fell into the Lifestream, the knowledge that he gained from the Lifestream taught him the truth, but he still carried out his mother's will which he took to be destroying the planet and taking to space to destroy other planets. At no point was outright godhood or perfection on Sephiroth's list of objective.

Moreover, as I already said, Sephiroth's knowledge comes from the Lifestream. He knows nearly everything... but not quite everything. Nobody in the Lifestream could educate him on the nature of Jenova's cells abilities completely. Sephiroth and Jenova operate as one throughout canon, but Sephiroth's speeches make very clearly that he doesn't see himself as his mother just yet. They are not one conciousness.

In "Lifestream Black" Sephiroth indeed goes "With just a fragment of Mother's body, I myself can regain a body."

But by this time he was educated himself with everything that happened in the game.

Oh come on. He knew where they were at all times and could have butchered them in their sleep if he'd wanted, or looked like a random nobody in any one of the towns they passed through so he could get close enough to gut them. He was dicking with them all, especially Cloud, the whole time.

As for getting into the Temple, even if Sephiroth needed the Keystone, if AVALANCHE could find it, it's not like Seph couldn't have.

He knew where they were because he was the one that leading there, yes. Doesn't mean that it doesn't physically take him time to get places. And Avalanche didn't find the Keystone. Dio did, Sephiroth's drinking buddy.

 

[Masamune]

At no point was outright godhood or perfection on Sephiroth's list of objective.

Are you.... sure about that?

Sephiroth: It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to
heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the
injury. ...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very
life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha ha ha. And at
the center of that injury, will be me. All that boundless energy will be mine.
By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a new life form, a
new existence. Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now...
Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul.

 

[Roger]

In my defense, that's gotta be the only time he says that. But I suppose there you are, he wanted to reborn as a new lifeform, not see the Jenova body he was controlling reborn as a new lifeform.

 

[Max Payne]

Safer really wasn't that far beyond Synthesis from a gameplay perspective, which is about the only perspective we have to go on. For that matter, if not for his use of Supernova dragging the fight out, you could end it almost as quickly.

In any case, I still think it's a silly distinction to be trying to establish since the cells of JENOVA seem to essentially belong to him as much as his original body. They might as well be counted as part of him too.

And the distinction becomes sillier still when we consider that his will was powerful enough to hold back Holy even in the absence of a body. It seems to me that any form of JENOVA should pretty much be as powerful as any other where Seph's will is inhabiting that form.

And speaking of which, that brings us back to the matter of his spirit inhabiting the foreign material and what you mean by a foreign body. I guess you must mean that the idea of separating his soul from his body must be a pyschologically frightening -- maybe even a self-diminishing -- experience.

I disagree. He's already had to experience his entire body dissolving in the Lifestream, and his consciousness had already acted through pieces of JENOVA for a while. I think he was used to the whole thing already.

Yeah, you think. I don't see what's so "silly" about anything when you're basing an argument off of speculation.

Also, I mean throwing away your body, the body you've lived in for years, when you can save it without a second thought is no easy task. It's a part of you.

Also, Safer Sephiroth is only easy if you overleved. If you jump right into the crater first chance you get it can be a pretty fun fight.

Even then, it's still obvious that he's meant to be more powerful than all the other enemies in the game. That's the whole point of him being the final boss. Why would he throw away his body when he could make it more powerful than Jenova with what he knew and could do?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He knew where they were because he was the one that leading there, yes. Doesn't mean that it doesn't physically take him time to get places.

Soooo he needs time to beat AVALANCHE to places where he's leading them, but which they already are at (in which case he's already been there too since he's leading them to those places)? I'm sorry, what?

And Avalanche didn't find the Keystone. Dio did, Sephiroth's drinking buddy.

If you're going to take that argument, you could say Dio didn't find it, the weapon seller east of Gongaga found it. AVALANCHE still came across it, which was my point.

And, really, you're just emphasizing my point better than I did: if ordinary people could come across the thing, then the human-alien hybrid with a host of supernatural abilities certainly should have been able to. And we still don't even know that Sephiroth needed the Keystone to enter the temple.

Yeah, you think. I don't see what's so "silly" about anything when you're basing an argument off of speculation.

Okay, let me rephrase in a manner that doesn't needlessly sound like speculation: He undeniably had plenty of irrefutable, incontestable experience with his consciousness being separated from his original body.

Also, I mean throwing away your body, the body you've lived in for years, when you can save it without a second thought is no easy task.

Five years is time for plenty of thoughts. It's not like he could choose between instantly saving his body and carrying out his plan or just carrying out his plan. It was not a "without a second thought" matter.

Also, Safer Sephiroth is only easy if you overleved. If you jump right into the crater first chance you get it can be a pretty fun fight.

Well, in fairness, so can Synthesis. That fight is only super easy, again, if you've overleveled.

But, yes, Safer is a legitimately more difficult battle.

Why would he throw away his body when he could make it more powerful than Jenova with what he knew and could do?

That's the thing: Where are we getting this distinction between him and JENOVA on a physical level in the first place? It's obviously JENOVA's anatomical features (the Reunion) that allowed Sephiroth to reconstruct his original body, what with its cellular material permeating his entire physical structure.

On a physical level, where are we really finding such a difference between Sephiroth's body and JENOVA's body? Certainly there's a real distinction between "This is the body Sephiroth was born in" and "This is Sephiroth's extended body," but when looking at what they should be capable of, that should begin and end at the amount of energy they've absorbed and/or the presence of Sephiroth's will.

Any actual difference in the capabilities of the two where Seph's will isn't involved should only be attributable to the Lifestream energy he'd been pouring into his original body. We know that had been going on because he would have had to use a lot of spirit energy to cast Meteor:

Cloud
"As long as we have this, Sephiroth won't be able to use Meteor."

Cloud
"Mmm?"
"Can you guys use it?"

Aerith
"Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use it."


Cloud
"You mean lots of Spiritual energy?"

Aerith
"That's right."
"One person's power alone won't do it."
"Somewhere special. Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy..."

So, if you take Seph's will out of the equation, yeah, you might have a more powerful body when looking at his original body than any other piece of JENOVA, but that's nothing inherent to his body, and -- as far as we've been given reason to believe -- it shouldn't be something he couldn't have done with any other piece of the alien's body.

Now, if you want to make the suggestion that Seph could only absorb Lifestream with a body born on Gaia, feel free. Though we don't really have a reason to believe this, that would be a more reasonable suggestion, and one with some measure of legitmacy to the assertion that there's something inherent in the power of Sephiroth's original body that should have made him want to recreate it rather than pursue his plans without it.

In fact, were he under that constraint, he couldn't have enacted his plans without his original body. His unique physiology (which, again, he got from JENOVA anyway) probably had something to do with why he could absorb so much Lifestream without his body becoming mutated like those poor bastards in the Nibel reactor.

That's a fair enough suggestion.

But just "Why would he throw away his body when he could make it more powerful than Jenova?" isn't, because I can simply say to that "Why wouldn't he throw away his original body when he's been used to operating without it anyway and could make the parts of JENOVA just as powerful, plus he wouldn't have to wait around for years to get things underway?"

 

[Roger]

Soooo he needs time to beat AVALANCHE to places where he's leading them, but which they already are at (in which case he's already been there too since he's leading them to those places)? I'm sorry, what?

I didn't say he needed days to get there. I'm saying him not being right the hell at the Temple that'll shrink in and can kill you if you aren't outside it's radius but showing about a minute afterwards means he's just didn't feel like running for the Black Materia. That Cloud, who just barely made it out of there was closer and thus picked it up first doesn't mean jack.

If you're going to take that argument, you could say Dio didn't find it, the weapon seller east of Gongaga found it. AVALANCHE still came across it, which was my point.

And, really, you're just emphasizing my point better than I did: if ordinary people could come across the thing, then the human-alien hybrid with a host of supernatural abilities certainly should have been able to.

Cause everyone knows how human/alien hybrids are the best bare none at keeping track of gossip. Name one of these supernatural abilities that would help Sephiroth know that at some point in his life some shut-in south of Gongaga has an old key item.

And we still don't even know that Sephiroth needed the Keystone to enter the temple.

The alternative being what? He just can't pass up impaling Tseng just as much Cloud (and needs to create a theatricaly appropriate moment for it). Why do you need to think this?

But just "Why would he throw away his body when he could make it more powerful than Jenova?" isn't, because I can simply say to that "Why wouldn't he throw away his original body when he's been used to operating without it anyway and could make the parts of JENOVA just as powerful, plus he wouldn't have to wait around for years to get things underway?"

Cause if his body died, he'd be dead? It took him two years to built up the Dark Lifestream to reform a body with which to reach out to those same Jenova cells and start over again. Which he was only able to do because of the misery he spread in FFVII. Just speculating here. I know he controlling Jenova already but he was still alive, if half dematerialised. I don't know if he could actually survive ditching his physical form completely. No way to say if he was willing to try.

 

[Max Payne]

I will try and continue this conversation when I know I won't be homeless.

Or dead.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I didn't say he needed days to get there. I'm saying him not being right the hell at the Temple that'll shrink in and can kill you if you aren't outside it's radius but showing about a minute afterwards means he's just didn't feel like running for the Black Materia.

The fact that he doesn't feel like acting desperate to win over a lot of things is the guy's very obstacle to winning.

That Cloud, who just barely made it out of there was closer and thus picked it up first doesn't mean jack.

When Seph is fast as shit and can control Cloud's motor functions, it means a lot.

Cause everyone knows how human/alien hybrids are the best bare none at keeping track of gossip. Name one of these supernatural abilities that would help Sephiroth know that at some point in his life some shut-in south of Gongaga has an old key item.

Are you really asking me why being able to look like anyone, cast illusions, phase through objects, fly at great speed, drink knowledge from the Lifestream, etc. would be useful in tracking down information?

Again, if people with none of those abilities could track the info down, then this guy definitely should be able to if he was looking for the keystone at all.

The alternative being what?

He enters without it. The guy can apparently phase through walls and floors.

That still really doesn't address the matter of not seeking the thing out sooner if he needed it.

Cause if his body died, he'd be dead?

Based on what? He'd still have the rest of his body (i.e. JENOVA).

For that matter, since when did his original body dying ever stop him? It dissolved in the Lifestream and he put it back together. It got minced again by Cloud and co. and he still kept holding back Holy until Cloud beat the guy's actual spirit.

It took him two years to built up the Dark Lifestream to reform a body with which to reach out to those same Jenova cells and start over again.

Yes, but those were different circumstances, were they not? On that occasion, his actual spirit had been beaten and then the Lifestream took it and began diluting his consciousness. He had to fight back and only barely managed to escape, and even then only by giving up much of his memories and forming shinentai who were drastically incomplete versions of himself.

Just speculating here. I know he controlling Jenova already but he was still alive, if half dematerialised. I don't know if he could actually survive ditching his physical form completely. No way to say if he was willing to try.

Well, as we've seen that he can survive it -- even crawling back when his body had been destroyed and his will was beaten -- I'd say he definitely could.

And I still don't see any difference between his consciousness inhabiting pieces of JENOVA that are running around and his consciousness inhabiting his original body, which had been destroyed and reconstructed once anyway.

I will try and continue this conversation when I know I won't be homeless.

Or dead.

=(

 

[Roger]

Are you really asking me why being able to look like anyone, cast illusions, phase through objects, fly at great speed, drink knowledge from the Lifestream, etc. would be useful in tracking down information?

Again, if people with none of those abilities could track the info down, then this guy definitely should be able to if he was looking for the keystone at all.

Except that no one in current day save the people that know about from Sephiroth himself, have any idea what the Keystone is or what it does. and they WEREN'T able to track down the Keystone. Dio and that guy south of Gongaga randomly obtained it becude they've been collecting random items (probably) since years before this affair began.

Being able drink knowledge from the Lifestream, look like anyone and cast illusions is great but nobody alive or dead knew that what that guy had was the Keystone, including said guy so where does that get him?

He enters without it. The guy can apparently phase through walls and floors.



That still really doesn't address the matter of not seeking the thing out sooner if he needed it.

I meant in terms of MOTIVE. He didn't wait for Cloud he waited for Tseng and Keystone. If the Keystone means nothing to him in terms of ability to eter the Temple I assume he just waited to get Tseng along so he can impale him.

Based on what? He'd still have the rest of his body (i.e. JENOVA).

Not part of his own body (yet).

For that matter, since when did his original body dying ever stop him? It dissolved in the Lifestream and he put it back together.

If this was stated in canon then never mind but did he actually dissolve completely? I find it hard to believe that Cloud was that much more succesful in surviving the Lifestream

It got minced again by Cloud and co. and he still kept holding back Holy until Cloud beat the guy's actual spirit.

Hence the laughing. He was excepting to still be around.

Well, as we've seen that he can survive it -- even crawling back when his body had been destroyed and his will was beaten -- I'd say he definitely could.

I'd say so, just it doesn't seem like something to delberately put yourself through if you can help it.

And I still don't see any difference between his consciousness inhabiting pieces of JENOVA that are running around and his consciousness inhabiting his original body, which had been destroyed and reconstructed once anyway.

Other the it not being his body? I'm sorry but I just don't see how someone could not see the difference between a human body and

In my eye, it's not vanity for a man just want to (primarily) be himself, if it at all possible.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Except that no one in current day save the people that know about from Sephiroth himself, have any idea what the Keystone is or what it does.

...

Being able drink knowledge from the Lifestream, look like anyone and cast illusions is great but nobody alive or dead knew that what that guy had was the Keystone, including said guy so where does that get him?

Actually, it seems to be pretty common knowledge to people who care about such things:

Bone Village conversation
Cloud
- Have you seen Sephiroth?

- What are you doing?

• Have you seen Sephiroth?
  
  Excavator
  Oh, the man in a Black Cape. He was looking for the Temple of the Ancients.
  
  Cloud
  - The Temple of the Ancients?
  
  Excavator
  It's way down south. It's right on the other side between this town and the inland sea.
  It's the pyramid that rises within the forest.
  
  Cloud
  - How do you get in?
  
  Excavator
  You'll need a Keystone.
  
  Cloud
  - What's a Keystone?
  
  Excavator
  Just like it sounds. A rock that's a key. I heard that some rich guy has it.

Weapon Seller conversation
Man
Huh? Oh another customer. You sure picked an out of the way place but...
But if it's the "Keystone" you're looking for, you're too late. Don't have it.
Cloud
Keystone?
Man
What? You didn't come here for that?
The "Keystone" is the key that unlocks the gate to a very old temple somewhere.
You're not going to believe your ears,
But I heard it was the Temple of the Ancients!!
Cloud
The Temple of the Ancients...
Man
Kya, hah hah hah...
Don't take it seriously. It's just a legend!
Huh? What?
Cloud
- Where is this "Keystone"?
- Where is the Temple?
- Let's change the subject

- Never mind

• <LI class=option>Where is this "Keystone"?
  
  Man
  I sold it already. Yeah well, to tell the truth, I didn't really want to sell it but...
  That guy had a way about him that made you feel like it may not be a good idea NOT to sell it to him...
  
  Cloud
  Who did you sell it to?
  
  Man
  The manager of the Gold Saucer... think his name was "Dio". Said he was going to put it in his museum, then he took off out of here.
  
• Where is the Temple?
  
  Man
  Come on... it's only a legend. But if it were true, that sure would be something, huh?
  Now that you mention it, I have heard of something called Ultimate Destruction Magic was supposed to be hidden somewhere in the Temple of the Ancients.
  
  Cloud
  Ultimate Destruction Magic...?
  
  Man
  Come on! I told you not to take it seriously!

Even Meteor was known to some ordinary people.

And, of course, the Turks knew what the stone was supposed to do:

North Corel conversations
Man
A buncha guys called Turks came here sayin' they'd pay 10000 gil for some rock called a 'Keystone'.
When I asked how much they'd pay for a regular rock just layin' around here, they slapped me upside my damn head!!
Man 2
I'll never understand the rich. I heard some guy named Dio at the Gold Saucer is collectin' rocks!

Notice also with that second quote that if someone was trying to track down information about the Keystone and was synthesizing the info the came across, they could very easily conclude that this rich guy is collecting rocks might be the same rich guy who the dude in the Bone Village was referring to.

and they WEREN'T able to track down the Keystone.

At the Gold Saucer
Cloud
It's the Keystone...
Dio enters from behind him.
Dio
Heh, heh, heh. Long time no see, my boy. Hmm? You like that, huh?

Disagree.

I meant in terms of MOTIVE. He didn't wait for Cloud he waited for Tseng and Keystone. If the Keystone means nothing to him in terms of ability to eter the Temple I assume he just waited to get Tseng along so he can impale him.

Don't forget that he'd been jerking Cloud along the whole time. He didn't want to do anything without Cloud.

He opened the door to Cloud's cell in the Shin-Ra building and walked across the continent instead of flying -- even letting people in various towns see him and know it was him -- for a reason after all.

Not part of his own body (yet).

How so? He's made of the same material, he acts through it, he controls even those who have some of it in them.

His 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile even says that he synthesized the remains of his original body with more JENOVA cells in order to revive it.

If this was stated in canon then never mind but did he actually dissolve completely? I find it hard to believe that Cloud was that much more succesful in surviving the Lifestream

Maybe it had something to do with where Seph fell in (a reactor), but, yes, both Seph's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile and his Reunion Files profile say that his body dissolved.

I'd say so, just it doesn't seem like something to delberately put yourself through if you can help it.

Fair enough. I just don't assume that it would have been all that difficult for him since he was already walking around in another body.

Other the it not being his body? I'm sorry but I just don't see how someone could not see the difference between a human body and

I'm not talking about in terms of appearance or even physiology. I'm talking about in terms of him being alive, I don't see the difference.

In my eye, it's not vanity for a man just want to (primarily) be himself, if it at all possible.

Perhaps not.




By the way, all script quotes in this post thanks to: http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script.html

 

[Ite]

Don't forget that he'd been jerking Cloud along the whole time. He didn't want to do anything without Cloud.

He opened the door to Cloud's cell in the Shin-Ra building and walked across the continent instead of flying -- even letting people in various towns see him and know it was him -- for a reason after all.

Quoted for truth.