Why Is A Cross Dressing Cloud So Damn Important?

[Tetsujin]

Wait, there are two bros?

I am so confused.

 

[Octo]

I'd actually like to see that whole segment properly translated.

 

[Pixel]

I'd actually like to see that whole segment properly translated.

Working on it... though i'm not the best person to do it. But I'll do my best.

 

[Lex]

Oh I might be wrong. I don't know why but I always thought there were three. "Big Bro" is probably just beautiful bro.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I think that the cross-dressing scene should stay as is.

In the end, no matter what happens with it, someone's going to be offended. But it's complex and filthy place under the plate, and the characters and NPC's do things out of desperate need just as surely as others do it as a matter of identity. The scene as it was didn't appear intended to make a mockery out of anyone's gender identity or the struggles that go with that...well, except for maybe Cloud's and his faux macho man ego. That's what makes it funny: How it contrasts with how Cloud actually thinks of himself. The only thing being made fun of is the character. (Because without the "Zack mask" on, he's a pretty humble guy.) The reason Cloud himself did it had nothing to do with mocking anyone's personal life or feelings--it was a desperate measure.

A single, bizarre instance in fiction doesn't always necessarily deserve to be analyzed as part of a greater social issue. Motives and context matter.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think that the cross-dressing scene should stay as is.

The scene as it was didn't appear intended to make a mockery out of anyone's gender identity or the struggles that go with that...well, except for maybe Cloud's and his faux macho man ego. That's what makes it funny: How it contrasts with how Cloud actually thinks of himself. The only thing being made fun of is the character.

Good point, well said.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I agree with the sentiment certainly, and I wouldn't be aghast or offended if the scene wasn't altered or anything. I think it would be nice to acknowledge the change in times and the portrayal, yadda yadda but I don't argue that it's mandatory in any sense.

 

[Flare]

I think that the cross-dressing scene should stay as is.

In the end, no matter what happens with it, someone's going to be offended. But it's complex and filthy place under the plate, and the characters and NPC's do things out of desperate need just as surely as others do it as a matter of identity. The scene as it was didn't appear intended to make a mockery out of anyone's gender identity or the struggles that go with that...well, except for maybe Cloud's and his faux macho man ego. That's what makes it funny: How it contrasts with how Cloud actually thinks of himself. The only thing being made fun of is the character. (Because without the "Zack mask" on, he's a pretty humble guy.) The reason Cloud himself did it had nothing to do with mocking anyone's personal life or feelings--it was a desperate measure.

A single, bizarre instance in fiction doesn't always necessarily deserve to be analyzed as part of a greater social issue. Motives and context matter.

I agree with you on all of this, nicely said.
Sometimes it's nice to just enjoy fiction for fiction, and not delve into every scene as having big social issues behind them. It can take the fun out of games and novels and movies.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Couple more video ideas while the topic is still in recent memory:

- In TLS Podcast 3 we mentioned doing the voice-acting for the script of the older FFs. It was half-joking of course, but would it be possible (or legal for that matter) to adapt the game scripts into an audio drama? It would be a HUGE under-taking of course, so this is probably a long shot, but I think it'd be pretty awesome.

- A bit more realistic idea: a plot Synopsis of FF7. For the fans who haven't played FF7 (I know who's that lol?) or for the fans who haven't played the compilation in a while, a simple 10-15 minute refresher video on the events of the plot could be cool. Essentially an "everything you need to know about FF7."

 

[Pixel]

In TLS Podcast 3 we mentioned doing the voice-acting for the script of the older FFs. It was half-joking of course, but would it be possible (or legal for that matter) to adapt the game scripts into an audio drama? It would be a HUGE under-taking of course, so this is probably a long shot, but I think it'd be pretty awesome.

I wouldn't recommend this. its a lot of work. And fandubs are usually painful to listen to. People wont take it as a joke. Also, given the zero fucks that are given for the audiobooks, I don't think its the way to go.

 

[Starling]

Would the plot synopsis be serious or comedic? What do you think of this summary? I'd also like to point out that I happen to care about the audiobooks and listened to all of them at least once.

 

[Jason Tandro]

@ Pixel: I was aware that this is a sort of "our wildest dreams" scenario but I have to agree with Starling. I've been listening to the OTWTAS and I'm in love with them, especially with the superior production quality and the cast of thousands. I know if there's one thing that fans hate its other fans doing dubs and subs, but I think a sufficiently well-planned and produced one could garner a bit of a following. But again, I see your point about the potential of putting a shitload of effort into something that maybe gets 2,000 views or so.

@Starling: I was thinking somewhere in the neigborhood of the opinion pieces actually. Serious message delivered with a touch of humor. That video you shared was actually about perfect.

 

[Starling]

Why thank you. That channel makes some pretty entertaining stuff, though the voicover sometimes talks a bit fast for my tastes. Do all the discussions happen on skype?

I find listening to OTWTAS here way better than reading. I think the words sound more natural when spoken. I don't think people hate fandubs automatically. I mean people like parodies and those tend to involve dubbing characters that pare probably already voiced. There's also the matter of if an official dub of that particular thing is available.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I agree. The music really really helps and having a full cast makes all the difference. So far I've tackled Case of Barret, Case of Denzel, Case of Lifestream and am halfway through Case of Nanaki. And with the exception of Case of Lifestream which is more or less an emotionally neutral piece (Sephiroth's darkness mixed with Aeris's hope), all of these pieces are like very very depressing pieces, but they all seem to have hopeful endings. I gather these take place in the time between FF7 and AC, which would explain why.

 

[Starling]

It kinda feels like they're telling a story of struggling with depression. Denzel's is the most depressing for me. The music really does help set the tone. Also the people picked to voice Tifa, Barret and Cloud were very good fits.

 

[Octo]

I think a LTD video would be awesome. I want to see the comments section haemorrhaging everywhere.

 

[Pixel]

I think I already have the thumbnail picked out if we do that

 

[Fangu]

Sometimes it's nice to just enjoy fiction for fiction, and not delve into every scene as having big social issues behind them. It can take the fun out of games and novels and movies.

Well, some would argue that what you're basically saying here is 'I want works to reflect the world as I see it, because it makes me feel comfortable'. Which is legit, because we all need some form of escape. The problem is that people have different need for comfort. When games/ movies etc address certain issues reserved for people in a less... recognized position (refusing to use the p-word) in a way that doesn't help their struggle for a better life, just for the sake of amusement for people who live their lives in a way that is more widely recognized (traditionally recognized as 'right'), it helps spread misconceptions that in the end makes someones life a little bit harder. So I do have slight problems when people subtly suggest that the way their group of people see the world/ reality is 'the correct way' (ie everything else is 'social issues that only some other people care about'.) That is, of course, if you're like me and see this as a problem. Some people don't see making fun of 'ladyboys' or 'fags' a problem at all, because, after all, they are deviants with unnatural behaviour. (Which is not even a fact, but a lot of people still believe so.)

So idk. Cloud wearing a dress being a way of making fun of his overly masculine false persona because he was bullied as a kid... it's kind of innocent, and I always liked the cross dressing sequence for the way Aerith completely runs the show during those scenes. But regarding the issue of 'men wearing women's clothes' there's a lot more to find if you go deeper than just scratching the surface. Some men like wearing women's clothes for the kick, the laugh, for the arousal. Some men like wearing women's clothes because the don't identify as the gender we refer to as 'man'. Some men like wearing women's clothes because they know they were born the wrong gender. These people all have in common that they pass as men and dress in women's clothes. If you are a man who pass as a man but don't feel you fit the gender box 'man' and this is the only reference in movies/ TV shows/ games you ever see, you will end up feeling like society's monkey in a cage (which you probably already did).

Funny thing is, when I opened my laptop this morning this thread was open where, before Lex mentioned the tweets, I had written the following:

Since this seems to be the relevant thread I thought I'd post this interesting article by a trans woman gamer and media journalist that analyzed the crossdressing sequence more from a media representational praxis rather than a tonal symbolism analysis like Claymore's video does.

http://boingboing.net/2015/07/17/how-should-we-talk-about-final.html

How should we talk about Final Fantasy VII's crossdressing sequence?
A lot has changed since 1997.

I remember the moment I realized what the Wall Market section of Final Fantasy VII would actually entail. I was thirteen, and I nervously checked to see if anyone else was home.

Being trans brought with it this odd sense of obligation to protect a secret that at the time I wasn’t even aware I had. Looking back, it seems a little ridiculous, but I really was afraid someone could glean something like that about me, just from playing a game where the main character is forced to crossdress.

Spoiler: Rest of article

There is no single, universal trans narrative, but for most trans people, it takes quite a bit of our life before we’re able to conceptualize our experiences in the same way we do once we’ve come out to ourselves. I didn’t conceive of myself as “being a girl” as a child; I didn’t know that was possible. I knew, at the time, that I deeply wanted to be a girl, but I had no idea what that meant, and I had a vague but persistent notion that whatever this feeling was, I shouldn’t acknowledge or discuss it. I know now that I was a girl, but that understanding and framing only came much later.

Crossdressing is most certainly not the same experience as being trans, but strict expectations about gender conformity and "acceptable" expression absolutely do affect trans people. Many of us live a significant portion of our lives believing the lie society tells us, that our assigned sex is “who we are”, and as such may mistakenly interpret our own choices as “crossdressing”, only later able to realize what was truly going on.

Positive portrayals of both crossdressing and trans characters in games are becoming more and more common, even just within the past year or so. A recent Guild Wars 2 patch added a trans woman character. At E3, footage of The Legend of Zelda: Tri Force Heroes showed hero Link wearing a “Zelda dress”.

This wasn’t presented in a judgemental way, far from it—a fundamental mechanic of the game is acquiring new outfits to use new abilities. Link’s wearing a dress isn’t played for laughs; it’s just another outfit he can use to progress. It’s heartening seeing an explosion of art from fans not just accepting of this, but excited and ecstatic about it.

There have, unfortunately, been a good number of missteps along the way as well. Many players were excited that clothing wouldn’t be restricted by sex in Fallout 4, but the trailer played “man in a dress” for laughs.
The trailer starts with the man asking his dog if he’s “ready to fuck some shit up.” We then see brief footage of the character in a dress, played against the apocalyptic landscape and inserted between rugged, expectedly masculine outfits. The joke pretty clear: a man in a dress is being impractical, frivolous and certainly not the sort man one would expect to be able to “fuck shit up.” Thankfully, this was just in the trailer, and without quite the same framing, the crossdressing should be able to exist as more than just the butt of a joke.

Worse examples than just this have popped up, however: earlier this year a trans woman discovered a clearly transphobic joke written by a Kickstarter backer that made it into Obsidian’s Pillars of Eternity game.

It felt appropriate to petition the company to remove the content, which had no real redeeming value other than punching down at a marginalized group for the sake of cheap laughs. It wasn’t part of an ongoing plot, it had nothing to do with the development of the characters, it was just a contextless epitaph about how shameful it is to be “tricked” into sleeping with someone who is “really a man.” Thankfully, Obsidian agreed, and worked with the backer to replace the epitaph.

Our attitudes and our ability to have conversations about gender expression have evolved quite a lot since the original launch of Final Fantasy VII, and since the announcement of the remake, there’s been a lot of discussion about the crossdressing and how it should be handled. Trans people’s reservations about the scene are not spurious or unwarranted, but given the context of the scene, I believe petitioning the developer to just remove it wouldn’t be the right answer. It’s not the same situation as Pillars of Eternity, and I’m worried about people desiring too blunt a solution to a problem that may not warrant it.

The scene in Final Fantasy VII starts after a mission goes awry and Cloud is separated from some members of his party. While he’s with his new friend Aeris in the slums of Sector 6, they spot Tifa, one of the missing party members, riding a carriage to the mansion of famous brothel manager Don Corneo. Though you’re meant to try to rescue Tifa, you quickly learn no men are allowed in the Don’s mansion—but Aeris presents Cloud with a solution.

At first Cloud is resistant to the idea of dressing like a girl, but as the player you undergo a series of quests to acquire the right accessories to be a convincing one. At the very least, you're required to collect a dress and a wig; additional items include a cologne, tiara, and undergarments. The specific combinations can result in Don Corneo picking either Tifa, Aeris or Cloud to come with him to his bedroom. Getting the Don to choose Cloud is actually the most difficult, requiring you to win the mini-games and make the most optimal choices as you navigate Wall Market looking for precisely the right items. “Winning" the entire ordeal means, functionally, making Cloud play the best woman you can, and this is rewarded with an extra scene.

To get the dress, you have to locate the father of a clothing store in a bar. You learn he's become disillusioned with "making regular clothes" after Aeris explains that Cloud's "always said that just once, he'd like to dress up as a girl." He's surprised initially ("What?! A tough lookin’ guy like that?") but quickly agrees to the challenge. You're allowed to pick from a dress that's “clean” or “soft”, and one that's “shiny” or “that shimmers” (you want a Silk Dress, the soft one that shimmers).

After getting the the dress made, Cloud tries it on in a dressing room but Aeris thinks something is missing, and agrees he needs to find a wig. The shop owner explains that at the gym, you'll find "a lot of people there like you" who can help you out. You compete with one of the gym-goers at "Big ‘Beautiful’ Bro’s" insistence by attempting to do the most squats in 30 seconds: depending on if you win, tie or lose you'll acquire a different tier of wig (you’ll want a Blonde Wig—a ‘dyed wig’ if you tie, or a ‘wig’ if you lose, won’t be ideal).

A few smaller tasks are completed for the cologne and tiara. The ordeal for the undergarments is probably the strangest of the bunch, however: the "Honey Bee Inn" brothel that supplies Don Corneo with the three women he chooses from every day has a series of rooms you can choose from. Cloud can get suitable underwear from either the “&$#% Room” or the "Group Room,” both of which are implied to be rooms where women are hired to spend time with men. But surprisingly to the player, although different events happen in each room, it’s always muscular men that join.

In the &$#% Room, Cloud hears a voice in his head asking him what he’s doing in this kind of a place, and he passes out. He wakes to muscled men (presumably) massaging him back to consciousness, acknowledging that he must have been uncomfortable with the “adult things” that are going on in the Inn. In the Group Room, the men invite Cloud to "wash off our sweat and dirt together." All of the men strip, and the camera shifts up so you can only see their heads as they all get in the hot tub. Mukki, one of the men, asks, "How is it, bubby?! Feels good, huh?" but Cloud is only able to respond with silence or "It hurts."

This has been read by various people as either referring to the hot tub itself perhaps being too hot, a too-intense massage or sexual assault. Regardless of your choice of dialogue, Cloud responds by saying, "I don't feel good. Let me out..." Mukki just insists Cloud will get used to it, and asks him to count down from ten slowly.

It's the most unfortunate part of all of Wall Market; the recurring joke throughout the crossdressing ordeal is Cloud's (and, presumably, the player's) discomfort—that the challenge, in a sense, is to endure that discomfort for the sake of others. These rooms stage the first instances where Cloud expresses his discomfort and it’s paved over; in the Group Room, he explicitly vocalizes his refusal and it isn't really respected. For a lot of people, this optional scene is what shifted the tenor of the Wall Market sequence from goofy humor at Cloud's unfortunate circumstances to the game portraying the gay men as predatory and creepy.

It partially taints not only one of the few representations of a group of queer characters in a game that old, but also paints crossdressers similarly by association as well; these men, after all, are where Cloud acquires the bikini briefs for his mission to infiltrate Don Corneo's mansion.

Cloud goes back to the dress shop and changes, becoming "Miss Cloud." Aeris continues to flirt with him, and the shop owner thanks both of them for giving them a challenge that renewed his interest in making clothes; his initial surprise at learning Cloud wanted to dress as a woman has long since worn off, replaced by unguarded enthusiasm.

After gaining access to the mansion, you’re reunited with Tifa and quickly catch up before all three are called up for Don to choose from; assuming you acquired the right items, “Miss Cloud” is selected and you join Don in his room. He acts as lecherously as you were led to expect, and you’re given the choice of either flirting back or acting indifferent. After he asks Miss Cloud for a kiss, Aeris and Tifa break in and Cloud reveals himself as a man before all three take turns threatening to do various things to his genitals to extract information from him about ShinRa.

As imperfect as the entire thing was, Final Fantasy VII’s crossdressing does not fall into the same trap as Fallout 4’s trailer: the joke is not simply that there’s a man in a dress. Throughout the entire ordeal, Aeris follows you and is excited, flirty and encouraging. People in the town are occasionally surprised, but never overtly bigoted or hostile. Other people in the area crossdress, it isn’t a secret, and they’re accepted among their friends.

The joke, in the case of VII, was Cloud’s (and, by extension, the player’s) sense of discomfort despite there not being any real reason to be uncomfortable in the first place. Discussions about the negative aspects of VII’s portrayal of crossdressing—the stigmatization of other queer characters, the way Cloud’s boundaries become a joke inside the brothel—are important and necessary. Nontheless, even two decades later, there are things about Cloud’s crossdressing sequence in Wall Market that I think Final Fantasy VII got right—and that modern games are still getting wrong.

tbh I find it weird that nobody's commenting on this post. To me, it's kind of the giant elephant in the room when discussing the Cross Dressing scene - although I guess the thing is the video refers to more than just the scene in question, it's more taking that specific scene along with others to illustrate how the game needs to be kept 'light hearted'.

But yeah when discussing that scene in particular it's important to remember that ~20 years has in fact gone by. People are becoming aware that games are echoing society in a way that used to be reserved for movies and books, and the issues, ignored in works or not, at least deserves the space for discussion.

I don't find it to be an issue at all that the title is used as it is, and how the deeper issues of crossdressing in 2015 vs 1997 isn't discussed in the video. Not at all. But I'm not surprised that the topic pops up and it should be discussed when it does. (In > 160 characters, like Lex suggested.) For me, preferably by people with knowledge on the subject. The only thing I can relate to regarding crossdressing is that I have on occasion worn one. A dress, I mean.

idk. 2 cents.

 

[Flare]

^I like your 2 cents. ^.^

What I mean to say isn't that 'fiction should always be treated as fiction', but just sometimes, in some scenarios, it's nice to. I actually don't enjoy fiction at all if there's no real-world allusions or topics, you could say, inside them. I like realistic fiction a lot, I can't read fiction that treats everything as a joke/no real issue at all.

I guess on this particular topic, I like what seems to be the original intent, which was to show Cloud's discomfort at cross dressing because for him, since he tries to be so masculine, he finds it embarrassing, yet still goes along with it (and even does a decent job at fooling Corneo when he wants to). I think it's just a scene really in character for him with how he reacts. But I also know some people who do that stuff in real life would find a different meaning in the scene. Which again, is pretty cool, because different people will always find different ways to relate to scenes, whether they find it there for comic relief or if they think there's a more serious meaning behind it.

I like to see discussions on the entire game like this because I'm a total nerd for this game, and it makes me think of scenes in different ways too, which is fun.
I have no say in if they'll alter aspects of this scene slightly to fit nowadays, but it's not a big deal to me if they do or don't. I have a feeling I'll enjoy it either way.

I hope this doesn't just sound like a jumbled mess and that it means something.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

FWIW, I agree with Flare that the comedy of the scene doesn't lie in the inherent "hilarity" of cross-dressing, but in the fact that it's tough-guy Cloud doing the cross-dressing. Nobody down in Wall Market seems to think his cross-dressing is anything out of the ordinary (in fact, the disillusioned tailor thinks the request makes complete sense, and later gets excited at the prospect of creating a whole new business out of making dresses for men). Cloud's the only one who is initially uneasy with the cross-dressing, but he gets into the spirit of the thing and eventually does such a great job that he gets chosen as 'the bride' over Tifa and Aerith.

Incidentally I hope they keep the coy translations. "Are you here to find a 'bride'?" "Don Corneo is in the market for a 'bride'." I wonder if he keeps the bodies of his previous brides in a bloody chamber and wears the key around his neck?

 

[Fangu]

In-game, and considering the story and characters, I agree that's that where the hilarity lies. Not arguing that at all.

But when you think about the intended demographic of the game, and consider how it's making 17 year old boys 'put on a dress', I'm not so sure that's where the intended hilarity truly lies.

Of course on a meta level, where the 17 year old boy is Cloud, it adds another level.

But still. *shrug*

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, if anything, it shows that you can put on a dress, perfume, a wig, make-up and sexy panties, and do such a good job passing as a girl that the whoremaster chooses you for his "bride", and still be a tough manly man if that's your thing. Which is a good message, surely? The very existence of Tifa and Aerith shows that there's no shame or weakness in being "girly" in this game.

 

[Claymore]

I think a LTD video would be awesome. I want to see the comments section haemorrhaging everywhere.

It would be awesome simply for this. Would definitely get tons of hits.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I haven't been around these forums that long. Who are our primary Tifa-shippers (Cloti's?) and Aeris-shippers (Cleris?) I know not the terms, but I think it could be amazing.

Incidentally I have no dog in that particular fight. Personally I'm in the camp of "why not both?" He loved Aeris which may or may not have been residual feelings from Zack and he loved Tifa which was Cloud's childhood speaking.

He also loved Barret, but he couldn't tell anybody...

 

[Starling]

I'm relatively casual about shipping so I try to find compromises. I prefer Cloti over Clerith though. The thing is, even if Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, her death means it could never actually go anywhere, unlike his feelings for Tifa. I think it'd be nice to include some character study on the three to illustrate their personalities beyond the romance while we're at it. I mean, we could probably go over 10 minutes if we had to for the sake of a properly detailed video.