The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[KEFKA PALAZZO]

i have 1 conclution.....
although cloud is my favorite character.....
I really do not understand because he never understood the feelings of tifa ....
or because they did not understand the hints (very direct) Aerith ....
A! and hello to everyone XD

 

[Splintered]

The former was misplaced aggression- he beat up others since he couldn't beat up himself, and the latter, I'm not entirely sure it's being unable to face her as unwilling to ruin her hopes, or a mix of both. From what we see of him during his Shinra days, though, he's really not avoidance minded as a whole.
Maybe confronting Tifa is his blind spot, he can't really face up to her, nor can he withstand her, which has worked for the best when she does confront him, since it's with his interests in mind.

The beating up kids was a mixture of projecting his anger and his inability to confront imo.

Although it is true that his worst issues with confrontation have been historically dealing with Tifa (Tifa falling off the cliff, the Nibelheim incident). It's hard to think of a time when he avoided Zack or Aerith when he felt he failed them- it's pretty easy to get away from avoiding dead people. But I think his meltdown in FFVII wasn't just because Jenova messed with his head, he absolutely didn't want to come face to face with the truth of who he was. Not until Tifa helped him through it.

Then Ac/C was taking this running theme in Cloud's life and pushing it to the extreme. He didn't want to face his family when he got geostigma. He didn't want to face Kadaj to save Marlene. Then he tried to avoid it again after he saved her (and subsequently got a lecture).

Even in Kingdom Hearts, Nomura said that Cloud was running away from "something warm." Part of it is as you said, self punishment. But he also deliberately tried to avoid any confrontation with anybody about this subject.

 

[ForceStealer]

Was Cloud getting into fights in projection of his anger or just an attempt to prove that he was strong? (Either to himself or to Tifa)

 

[Ryushikaze]

Was Cloud getting into fights in projection of his anger or just an attempt to prove that he was strong? (Either to himself or to Tifa)

The answer is yes. He is both getting into fights to prove he is strong and because he is angry at himself for his inability to make a difference, his weakness when it counted.

 

[Dashell]

So this "They had sex on pointy rocks while everyone watched" is still going on? I didn't see it properly addressed so:

1. They were no pointy rocks.
2. The entire group LEFT. They LEFT! They all went to go to their loved ones. I don't understand where this "They stayed behind to watch" comes from and I never will.

in other words
Cloud says "Okay guys go to your loved ones."... and so they did, and while Cloud and Tifa WERE ALONE (because others had left to go see their loved ones which can't be stressed enough for some reason) that's when whatever happened between Cloud and Tifa happened. The next morning the crew returned and saw them sleeping next to one another and came to their own conclusions.

That's how it happened folks.

Also Zee where it is stated that Cloud is gone for weeks at a time? I honestly don't remember that.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't understand how the team got back to the Highwind anyway. Cloud presumably dropped them all off. How did they get back so quickly?

 

[Celes Chere]

To be honest I thought the distinction was pretty clear.

Well like, when you say official I think of canon. So I was wondering if you meant to say they weren't canon until CoT. I just didn't get what you guys were saying with 'relationship' relationship. My bad, I must be stupid today or something, lol. Nice set btw Raq, avie and sig are hooot. ;D

It's all just sort of hinted at and then dropped and just... never really focused on.

Lol, you silly Clerith you. XD

also ACC did NOT have a Zack/Aeris ending, that is the stupidest shit I have ever heard and the next person that says that will get my foot up their ass. I don't think Zack and Aeris could even SEE each other.

I didn't really see it as a Zerith ending because they walked out together. But I thought ACC symbolized it with the sword in the church//the flowers. In regular AC, they were both there for Cloud and when they both left they just both returned to the Lifestream. =P

O GOD FEELINGS OF SELF-DOUBT NOW

O_o

The next morning the crew returned and saw Tifa crying from rejection

I'm really tired of you mocking Cleriths.

 

[Dashell]

I don't understand how the team got back to the Highwind anyway. Cloud presumably dropped them all off. How did they get back so quickly?

I guess... I don't know... I didn't really think about it before. Then again Cloud is able to get to the Forgotten City in ACC in a matter of hours, isn't he? I realize that was somewhat of a contradiction, but they all might have gotten some other kind of transportation back.

I'm really tired of you mocking Cleriths.

lol. I guess that argument has died out now, hasn't it? I probably shouldn't sway the topic in that direction anyway.

I don't think Zack and Aeris could even SEE each other.

It would seem odd that they walked out together by a coincidence, while I do agree with you that them walking out together doesn't mean anything Zerith, and that even the flowers on Zack's grave is debatable, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to see each other.

 

[Raquelborn]

Aerith and Zack also chat with each other (though it feels more like playful banter) when Cloud "dies". I think that's pretty important for determining that they are aware of each other in AC/C.

 

[Celes Chere]

flowers on Zack's grave is debatable

How?

 

[Dashell]

Well it depends on what I guess you're trying to prove. Does it have a Zerith ring to it? Sure. Most people would think that. But to some it's simply that Aerith's wish is being fulfilled which is that she wanted more flowers to grow all over the world. It started on Zack's grave which is a sign that Zack is very important to her. I won't dispute that, it's just not enough to prove that they're a true couple in the lifestream.

Keep in mind too that Zack will probably disappear long before Aerith does.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Keep in mind too that Zack will probably disappear long before Aerith does.

What makes you say that? As far as I’m aware there’s nothing in the specified details about the universe that makes this all that likely, unless Zack loses his will to hang around, which wouldn’t be at all likely if Aerith is still around.

 

[Vendel]

Seeing how the scene was called, "Understanding",

Point of order. Was the night under the Highwind really called "understanding"? Or was it something someone made up?

Also Clouds office is not his bedroom. He had long hours but it was never stated he was away for weeks at a time.


And Q? The pointy rocks/friends watching thing has been picked apart a few times already.

 

[Dashell]

What makes you say that? As far as I’m aware there’s nothing in the specified details about the universe that makes this all that likely, unless Zack loses his will to hang around, which wouldn’t be at all likely if Aerith is still around.

He had already started to disappear until Aerith reconstructed him along with some others in CoLW. Now it's possible she can keep him alive somehow, but as we've discussed, will she really want to mess around with the circle of life that much?

And Q? The pointy rocks/friends watching thing has been picked apart a few times already.

Then why does it keep coming up?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Maybe he had just started to disappear because without knowing Aerith was there he had no will to stick around It's been awhile since I read CoLW but wasn’t he unaware she was in the lifestream until she revealed herself to him?

 

[Dashell]

He wasn't ever mentioned specifically in CoLW actually.

 

[Ⓐaron]

In that case it’s entirely possible he didn’t know she was in the lifestream until she revealed herself to him in which case knowing she was around would presumably provide him with more incentive to hang on

 

[Vendel]

Then why does it keep coming up?

Myself, Ryu and others have already responded to the issue as of a couple pages ago.

It's a new thread Q. Go ahead and read it.

 

[Celes Chere]

But to some it's simply that Aerith's wish is being fulfilled which is that she wanted more flowers to grow all over the world. It started on Zack's grave which is a sign that Zack is very important to her. I won't dispute that, it's just not enough to prove that they're a true couple in the lifestream.

I'm not trying to prove they love each other in the Lifestream, just that they are an official couple, and loved one another while they were living. The flowers on Zack's grave, or his sword in the church, is symbolizing the love the had and that they're always together. Even in death. The Crisis Core Ultimania makes a point saying that they are destiny, and irreplaceable existences. These things just seem to symbolize that even more. I am not at all saying that Aerith and Zack are getting it on in the Lifestream. =P

 

[Dashell]

Myself, Ryu and others have already responded to the issue as of a couple pages ago.

It's a new thread Q. Go ahead and read it.

Riiiight and how many times before did Ryu and others respond to that same issue and it keeps getting brought up every so often? At least this way when it comes up again (and it will) I can just c/p my response from this thread.

In that case it’s entirely possible he didn’t know she was in the lifestream until she revealed herself to him in which case knowing she was around would presumably provide him with more incentive to hang on

Could be, again we don't know, it was never discussed

I'm not trying to prove they love each other in the Lifestream, just that they are an official couple, and loved one another while they were living. The flowers on Zack's grave, or his sword in the church, is symbolizing the love the had and that they're always together. Even in death. The Crisis Core Ultimania makes a point saying that they are destiny, and irreplaceable existences. These things just seem to symbolize that even more. I am not at all saying that Aerith and Zack are getting it on in the Lifestream. =P

Okay I'm sorry but can you clarify the bolded part? Isn't it kind of the same thing.

And of course they were an official couple. That's obvious.
But if say, you believe Cloud's church and just the church itself is his promised land, what do Aerith's flowers have to do with Zack in that case? Now you say that the flowers represent the love they HAD and if that's the case, it doesn't mean she loves Zack and only Zack or that she loves Zack more. It could be a case of "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." Are they together? Sure. Does the end of AC/C show this? Yeah probably. To me it's not enough to prove that she doesn't love Cloud or that she loves Zack more.

Now I brought up Dissidia before and was told to knock it off, but I really need to know here. What is the difference between Cloud standing in flowers in Dissidia and flowers on Zack's grave? I'm guessing because Aerith isn't IN Dissidia, is that right?

EDIT:
And please don't respond with "Because Dissidia had nothing to do with who Cloud loved." because ACC had nothing to do with who Aerith loved.

 

[Celes Chere]

Okay I'm sorry but can you clarify the bolded part? Isn't it kind of the same thing.

Uh, no. I am saying that the symbols are of the love they had. In the Lifestream, they are merely floating around. It's not like they're chatting constantly and forming a stronger relationship, lol. I do think that their spirits will always be connected. That's not the same as actively having a relationship in death.

But if say, you believe Cloud's church and just the church itself is his promised land,

It was safe to him, because that's where he was staying. Where he felt the most peace. Maybe he felt it was the closest to Aerith, which makes sense because he wanted her forgiveness in AC/ACC. The church and flowers in AC/ACC symbolize Aerith. It's made pretty damn obvious. Those flowers specifically are the ones she was tending to, the ones that only grew there, and that church is where she spent a lot of her time. It's also the first place she met Zack and Cloud.

what do Aerith's flowers have to do with Zack in that case? Now you say that the flowers represent the love they HAD and if that's the case, it doesn't mean she loves Zack and only Zack or that she loves Zack more.

Hurr durr. Aerith's flowers represent her. Zack's sword represents him. Put them together... what does it make? O_o. Flowers don't grow anywhere besides Aerith's church. It seems odd they would grow on Zack's grave, which is on BARREN land.

What is the difference between Cloud standing in flowers in Dissidia and flowers on Zack's grave? I'm guessing because Aerith isn't IN Dissidia, is that right?

Well, she's not. She's not even mentioned. How do those flowers represent a person that's not even there? There are flowers on the plate in Edge, does that mean Aerith is symbolized there, too? I didn't think so. =P Here it seems like they are tying a character to something in their FF universe. Tidus was tied to a Jecht sphere, and so on.

 

[Raquelborn]

Not everyone is advocating that the flowers on Zack's grave are inherently Zerith, by the way. Flowers are obviously symbolic of Aerith and so in both cases it shows a connection with her. For Zack he died trying to get to her and their stories are strongly intertwinned in Crisis Core. The latter can also be said for Cloud in the original game and on top of that she was the main heroine of FFVII. She stopped Meteor after all, it makes sense for her flowers to be used to symbolise the FFVII world. (It's also much prettier than using Midgar's skyline or something).

 

[Dashell]

Uh, no. I am saying that the symbols are of the love they had. In the Lifestream, they are merely floating around. It's not like they're chatting constantly and forming a stronger relationship, lol. I do think that their spirits will always be connected. That's not the same as actively having a relationship in death.

Okay then.

It was safe to him, because that's where he was staying. Where he felt the most peace. Maybe he felt it was the closest to Aerith, which makes sense because he wanted her forgiveness in AC/ACC. The church and flowers in AC/ACC symbolize Aerith. It's made pretty damn obvious. Those flowers specifically are the ones she was tending to, the ones that only grew there, and that church is where she spent a lot of her time. It's also the first place she met Zack and Cloud.

I know they represent Aerith. I don't disagree with that. I believe Nomura says so here:

"In Aerith's case, she continually has the "flower" image all through-out the series." ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Mao magazine, Oct. 2007

Hurr durr. Aerith's flowers represent her. Zack's sword represents him. Put them together... what does it make? O_o. Flowers don't grow anywhere besides Aerith's church. It seems odd they would grow on Zack's grave, which is on BARREN land.

It doesn't make much to someone who might argue that Cloud ALSO owned the buster sword and it's merely there for... decoration, or something I dunno.

Hell you could say since Cloud owned the Buster Sword that the sword in the flowers is his way of always being with Aerith or something. Now I don't agree with that but you can see how that works out, maybe.

Well, she's not. She's not even mentioned. How do those flowers represent a person that's not even there? There are flowers on the plate in Edge, does that mean Aerith is symbolized there, too? I didn't think so. =P

She's not there yes, but first, I honestly don't know and I'm just asking, was Riona ever mentioned? I need to know that first before I make a counter argument I'll regret

Here it seems like they are tying a character to something in their FF universe. Tidus was tied to a Jecht sphere, and so on.

So they ARE tying a character to something in their universe? If they're doing that with the flowers then they'd have to be tying Cloud to Aerith. Or were you being sarcastic or something and I completely misread that?

 

[Celes Chere]

It doesn't make much to someone who might argue that Cloud ALSO owned the buster sword and it's merely there for... decoration, or something I dunno.

Hell you could say since Cloud owned the Buster Sword that the sword in the flowers is his way of always being with Aerith or something. Now I don't agree with that but you can see how that works out, maybe.

Lol, if someone argued that, it'd be clear they're just trying to make up excuses. =/

was Riona ever mentioned

Yes. They specifically pointed out that the feather symbolized Rinoa. Also, Rinoa was the center of Squall's entire being. There's not much else the feather CAN symbolize. XD

I wasn't being sarcastic. Just read Raq's post, she explained it better.

 

[Dashell]

I wasn't being sarcastic. Just read Raq's post, she explained it better.

I know but she posted after me ... well WHILE I was posting anyway.

I pretty much agree with everything she said. But if some people see others saying that the flowers on Zack's grave are Zerithy, it's only natural some would think the flowers in the end of Dissidia are Clerith. It can go either way really. At the very least I think the flowers at the end of Dissidia are showing Cloud on the right path to salvation and forgiveness.