Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.
So then why are you ignoring the U10 story summary and the Important scenes pages? Those are both telling us what is in the story. Unless extra-textual sources absolutely don't count, in which case please stop using them.
I know Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine are canon. But I'm saying, if people don't ship them, let them.
This debate is not, and honestly, from at least my perspective, has never been about shipping. It's been about the narrative and what is true within it, that which is colloquially called canon (And trust me, there's reams I could devote to the subject of canonicity itself)
Cloud and Tifa aren't married and they don't have to be to take care of Marlene and Denzel.
They don't have to be married to be in a relationship either.
She isn't mentioned by name in Advent Children. But she's an important part.
And Aerith is an important part of the four people Cloud can go on a date with. So are Tifa, Yuffie, and Barrett.
Incidentally, in the text on the story summary discussing that Deviation, Aerith gets second billing after Tifa.
If it's irrelevant, it shouldn't have been on that page. It is. So it isn't irrelevant.
It can be irrelevant to the current discussion while still being relevant to the subject of romantic confessions- And that's because Cloud is clueless during the confessions of that evening. Clueless to Aerith's and Clueless to Tifa's.
The description says it's optional, just like how right above the Highwind picture is a page number, and on that page, it explains that it's optional. It isn't right in the description, but it's there. They're both written in that book as optional.
As I keep mentioning, no, it does not. It mentions that there's a deviation possible, but it tells us- arguably three times in this book alone- what the outcome of that deviation is, by listing one of them as one of the most important scenes of the game, once on the very same page by saying that the outcome of the deviation is what occurs, and a third time by saying romantic feelings are confirmed, stressing THAT concept once again.
Twice the High Highwind is stressed. On two occasions romance and earnest feelings are stressed. We're being clobbered with what we're supposed to be taking as important from all this.
I'm not saying everyone who believes Cloud and Tifa are canon are trolls, at all. I know a few really nice people who think they're canon and I don't think they're trolls.
Being mean doesn't automatically make someone a troll nor does being nice automatically make them not one.
Doesn't the page also say that it's about love developing between the hero and heroine? There are two heroines in the game, and one hero, and we already know it's officially a love triangle, so it makes since that all three of them are there. If you think that page closes the LT, then Cloud must love both girls.
Which would actually be all well and good- if Cloud wasn't officially oblivious. That's why the -mutual- the -both held- is so important.
The time when you meet Cait Sith, one person goes with you. That person depends on the date mechanics.
Other way around.
The power of friendship *sings*
And as mentioned, that's still not apathy.
I didn't say it did. But they put special emphasis on Cloud's feelings for Aerith, so she was a very dear friend and different from the rest, not just a source of guilt and sadness in his life.
So's Zack. No flippancy here. Zack is just as much a dear friend as Aerith. But he is not a symbol of guilt for Cloud. That guilt IS what they put the emphasis on. Repeatedly. It's not just that he feels guilt over her, but that is the thing that keeps coming to the fore- guilt. Blaming himself. Feeling responsible.
I bet Nomura was the first person to jump on board for an FFX remake
What do you mean 'jump on board?'
They did it just so he'd stop muttering zipperbelt under his breath all day.
The translation I've been given is that he says "I don't want to go into my views..."
Which would still be referencing the novella, and the self deprecating laugh would still indicate an admission that he had done so anyways.
I don't have anything concrete that you have to agree with. I don't think my ship is canon anyway.
Can I ask when you switched to this stance? And how it's notably different from 'they definitely did happen?'
Because this is a radical change in the Clerith paradigm since as recently as early this year.
No, no, I know
But I did see, on another thread, a few people saying "Okay, we shoved it to them already, now can we change the name?" That's why we weren't sure if it was honestly serious or not.
None of those perople were me. They are irrelevant to the name or the content of the article.
No.
Then why can it not?
It's his last monologue in the book (if I remember right, it's either during or directly after the Highwind scenes.)
It's from just before they face Sephiroth. It still doesn't say when he learned that from Tifa, or if it was all he learned.
I agree. But I don't think he treated her that great for most of the game.
He treats her better than most other people, and even in his addled state, singles her out as the only person whose opinion matters.
I mean that, it's a part of his subconscious that he was forgetting, like his younger self was dredged up to help him remember those things - what really happened, how he'd felt about Tifa, Zack, everything that was missing. By "still holding", I think it means those feelings are literally being withheld by his memories,
First off, the quote says Held. Not withheld. Secondly, for something to be withheld, it must still be present. Either way, this argument winds up with those feelings being present and active in the present.
and at the end of it, he remembers - but I don't know or think it means that he just continues feeling them. I think that's up to interpretation. If he can romantically reject Tifa in the LA version, for example, and only express feelings of desire in the HA version, I think that backs it up. (I'm expecting somebody will come in and say "Oh, you mean THE CANON VERSION!?"
)
They come to realize the feelings regardless. The expression is what can be different in different playthroughs. All the evidence points to one version of the scene being the one that happened in the narrative.
No, I know now. It just seemed to me that from what people were saying, it was written to get people mad.
And none of those people are me. STOP REFERENCING THEM.
I wrote the damn thing to be short, succinct, and a bit tongue in cheek absurd because I know people would get mad regardless.
I used Ted Koppel as my splash image for fuck's sake.
There are three changeable events controlled by the date mechanics. And the first changeable event is supposed to be who goes with you when you meet Cait Sith
You are incorrect. That is a direct choice by the player.
Respond to you..? Wait, that was you before?
Woah! Hi! Your name has changed and everything.
Your picture has boobs!
Yes. It's my girlfriend's doing.
The Exile's gender affects the Disciple joining your party - it can only happen if she's female.[/quote]
I mean officially. Does that happen in the narrative, AFAWK, or is it merely something that CAN happen BECAUSE she's female?
Fairly indifferent, as in, he should have treated her better in certain parts. He's a lot nicer to her after, and that's just my opinion.
Yes, but still nicer to her than he is to other people.
"Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer.
Sounds like a KH statement.
You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
Sounds like a KH statement.
Cloud is a popular character,
Sounds like a general statement.
and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this.
Sounds like a general statement.
Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."
Sounds like it could be both.
Cloud being a popular character is a general statement, as could be 'I don't want to decide myself (I want the writer to do that for me!)', but the last one is referring to 'You might say it was made.' It's wrapping up the thought.
And I think he'd agree that KH did have some relevance to Cloud and Aerith as characters.
"Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players." -Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine
Even though he considers them separate stories, directly after he says it can also explain some of their relationship from VII itself.
MIGHT explain. That word might is quite important. It means it is possible, but not certain. So maybe something gets answered. Maybe it doesn't. Even if it does get answered, what are we being told? That Aerith is a lot more eager than Cloud, it seems. Plus, their reunion is squished between a father and son and two brothers in the credits.
Then we bring in KH2 and all the assumptions people had about Aerith go OUT the window- because yes, Virginia, Tifa is Cloud's light, just as Sephiroth is his darkness.
But I already said I'd amend it anyway. And I forgot. Kingdom Hearts is a touchy subject
That's nice. But you didn't get that from me
Then watch your sarcasm because I may decide to take it as genuine as suits my whim.
Both of our thoughts are possible. Good enough for me.
So why were you arguing against the other possibility?
It didn't say that's why, just
this happened and then
this happened.
Not trying to be mean or rain on the parade or anything, I'll go with it
Your previous wording did read as though you thought he was only staying because Barret offered him more money. Regardless, if you accept he stayed with Tifa, then we can move on.
I'm not exactly sure where it was, but I remember a quote saying the boys gave her letters inviting her to go to the well?
Only mention of the other boys calling her to the well is early material files, but no, there's no mention of letters in the finished product.
And he thought she hated him.
Yes, but Cloud tends to think folk think the worst of him. Like thinking people blame him for things they do not blame him for.
It's supported that it isn't just guilt by the fact that he's feeling that guilt because he wanted to protect her. I'm saying he cared about her a lot, and it doesn't have to be in a romantic way, I understand, but that's the way some of us interpret it.
And that 'in a romantic way' is what I was saying needs to be supported. No one here will argue that Cloud did not care for Aerith, or that's part of why he feels so guilty about failing to protect her, but most of us realize the same dynamic is in play with Zack and Cloud's guilt over failing to keep that promise.
SE has bad standards for friends...
Yours might be too high for Children, honestly.
You said Tifa had to know him well before she met him again to know he wasn't being himself, but if Cid and Aerith noticed and hadn't even known him before the Jenova cells got to him, they made it off of observation. I think Tifa did too.
Not had. Did. She did know him well enough and thus she could tell he was off before the more obvious cues came about.
Also, again, Aerith did it through Mysterious Cetra Powers, not a natural observation process.
"first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out."
It could go either way. With the Denzel/Marlene part, I think we talked about this once already, and he's guessing himself.
Again, he never says they won't work out. He says the opposite. That it's entirely possible for them to work it out.
But a relationship with issues is still a relationship. Heck, you could say one without them isn't a real relationship.
Of course, that begs the question, why is it a big deal if they're having issues in a platonic relationship?
He thinks of them as his family, but it doesn't say he thinks of her as a wife or something.
He does think of her as the mother of the family. She thinks of him as the dad. Denzel thinks of both of them as parents, etc.
I don't think she just 'handed' him over, but that she wants her to accompany him.
But not do anything romantic or be bothered with her romantic feelings towards the boy? Now we're just being silly.
I'll try not to.
I keep nipping on your heels then.
Square has made it notably different.
"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura, Dengeki Playstation magazine 2007
His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.
Oh dear.
For like 3 reasons.
Firstly, that's a quote mine. There's another sentence about its relation to the church scene where Cloud walks down the path between the pews
Secondly, it's from 2k3, not 2k7.
Thirdly, yes, it can be guilt. Undying, as I keep stressing, does not mean immutable. An undying fire can be quenched, an undying man killed, an undying hate satiated. An undying guilt can be lifted, because all undying really means in a figurative sense is 'does not fade with time'- and in a literal sense, typically means does not die from age. Even the undying immortals Highlander die permanently if you chop their head off. As do the undying endless if you have the right sword.
*searches for website and throttles them*
Now put their head on a pike. With photographs.
I meant that, sometimes people act like it's only guilt, and forget that she was a friend, and he wasn't just hurt by her death because he thought he failed, but at least because of that friendship.
I don't think anyone here is saying it's only guilt, period, but the guilt is what is stressed. Guilt over failing to protect a friend, but still guilt.
This is why I hate using quotes.
Just make sure you're quoting and reading whole ideas in the future.
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival." -10th AU, Tifa's profile
Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. -10th AU
I interpret those to meaning she is jealous. What do you think they mean?
I think the first one means they both want in Cloud's pants. I think the second one means she gets peevish at seeing them getting close. It could be jealousy. But I'm entering pedantic mode because it seems that's where the conversation is going and I feel like returning like with like.
In any case, even if it is jealousy, it need not be jealousy because Aerith is making romantic inroads. It can easily be jealousy that Aerith can be so forward and easygoing, something that Tifa comments on during her date with Cloud when she hesistates to say what she wants and comments that Aerith would have no trouble.
I mentioned this up above. That he feels that guilt because he cares.
And the burden of proof is still on you to demonstrate that the care is romantic, not platonic.
I'm not asking for your guilt or sympathy. But I'll note what you said, thanks.
I wasn't saying you were. I was just saying that appeals of that sort fall on deaf ears, because I've known people who WERE all those things.
Google 'Star Wars vs Star Trek Darkstar' and you'll see the sort of person that made me realize, yes, people can be that dishonest in the name of their goals, no matter how trivial.
He still says and thinks, regardless, that he's glad to have her at his side and not be alone.
Also says, and thinks, that he's going to have her at his side in a different way than before not more than a few hours later. So if he already had her at his side- and he did- it's different later on.
Whatever you say.
Yay, more blanket agreement!
I didn't even see it, and Nomura directed AC/C, and he's as important.
It was part of the response you quoted. And my point is, FF7 isn't "-Nomura". It's "-Kitase, Nojima, Nomura, and many others besides."
I've never seen this before.
It was posted in a reply that you responded to.
I don't think this, because I don't think anything like that has been written in stone, to never be interpreted again. I don't think Cloud's romantic feelings have been made canon. For either Aerith or Tifa. And if I ever have, probably it was when it came out, when I was little.
I don't think the LT has been officially closed, and from what I know of Anastar, I think she shares this belief. Maybe it's an old essay or she just changed her mind.
You'll have to ask her.
If it is an old essay, and she has changed her mind, she should not still be using it as an argument in its unaltered form.
You joke, but it's still an absolutely infuriating bit of social and literary philosophy.
Tres and me cleared this too, I think.
Only through repeated strikes does the hammer safely drive the nail home.
He would be where Tifa is.
Yes. He would be together with Tifa. Where he belongs.
No. I am calling it's inclusion in the summary a placeholder. Like the Aerith date has been.
The placeholder argument makes no sense, for reasons Tres and GLD have already covered, but which I really have to go over again.
The most important scene in the game is pretty much the exact opposite of a placeholder. Saying 'Yes, this one happened' in a story summary is different than a placeholder, like the one used for the date sequence which gloss over it entirely and say 'Cloud's companion' etc.
Saying one of the four most important scenes in the game is 'just' a placeholder boggles the mind. It really does.
And why is being 'specified' in the UO sufficient, but being story summary in the U10 and 'Most important' in the U20 insufficient?
Barret and Tifa have moved in together, raised Marlene, technically had a future at some point before FFVII.
Barret and Tifa and Biggs and Wedge and Jessie all moved in together. For an ecoterrorism cell.
Barret raised marlene. She was his responsibility. And maybe AVALANCHE helped, but nothing says they were under here care like Barret left her in Cloud and Tifa's later on.
Not only that, they were never said to have formed a family or have a future together.
Just trying to ease the tension.
Fair enough. You're still evading she wears the pants in their relationship.
Dude. We base Cloud and Aerith mostly off observation, like we did back in 1997.
And yet it's demanded that it be directly stated that Cloud still likes Tifa. Just like what was done in 1997.
We have observation and creator statements. These observations and statements link together to make a bigger picture with very few assumptions.
The Ultimanias are described as informational books, right? Giving detail to what we already know. What's telling the story are the games and the movie. If Cloud and Tifa are going to be made canon, it should be made within the story itself. Nobody's gotten back to me about this, so uh..
It was made within the story itself. We're giving detail to the narrative, being told which events happened and what they mean.
And then Cloud and Tifa move in and form a family together.
Cloud and Tifa aren't shown to be in a romantic relationship in the story - the games, novellas, and movie.
Yes they are. You're refusing to admit it.
You can accept Lucasfilms's outside of game statements about the contents of KOTOR 1 and 2. You accept what they say occurs in game. You are refusing to apply the same standard to Square-Enix talking about events of FF7 and the meaning of those events.
"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like..."
The high highwind scene is in the game. Them living together is in the film. Tifa being someone's beloved is in the film.
That's what we're going to do. We're going by not just Nomura, but Square's telling of the entire story. You definitely have a case, but as the Compilation stands currently, their just isn't enough to say it's canon right now.
There is. There's been for some time. In fact, both sides have even argued that until recently. It's why I find the current shift of position telling and fascinating.
Yes. Because there are answers in the plural. Like I said... if you see it a different way, you'll find that possible answer. Until they say otherwise.
Maybe Cloud loves both girls.
Which isn't a contradictory answer. But no, two contradictory answers
Text says flip some pages and they're both written as optional.
No. Text says 'this happens' flip a few pages, it says 'Do Thing and this happens' That same page also says 'this happens' that's not writing it as optional. It's writing it to tell you there's a choice to be made, but that one version actually occurs.
Then mesh it. Please, lay out how an apathetic, short conversation between people leads them towards the positivism of the next day. Do it. Don't just say you can. DO IT.
He had to have felt lonely at some point if he's thinking "Now I'm not. Tifa taught me this."
I repeat "Where are you getting suddenly?"
Because he isn't ignoring her?
Because the promise stops him. Because the promise is fucking important to Cloud. Because Tifa is important to Cloud, even when he's a mixed up jumble of memories and personalities.
Because it's her promise that convinces him to stay.
"The biggest mystery of FF7—the affectional rating
It is the inside parameter prepared for 4 characters’ affectional rating for Cloud; they’re Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie and Barret (information from creating staffs). According to different conditions, some specific events will proceed variously. The choices that occasionally appear in the scene with conversations will affect the rating largely. If your choice makes the character reveal positive reaction, the rating would be raised. In addition, it seems the time he/she joined your party, the interaction during the combat mode (using “heal” and “cover” when the other one was in a pinch) will uplift the rating too. But to compare with choices that provided, the influence is minor." -Dismantled, page 189
On this case, I can declare the Katai Shinsho wrong, if it's being accurately quoted. In battle actions do not affect the AV itself at all. That's been thoroughly tested and found not to be the case. They do, however, seem to affect the 'Tifa Specific Value.' While insufficient code rooting or brute testing has been performed to this end, there are odd outliers of folks getting the HA scene even when the AV alone should have made it impossible (Barret Date, for example.), which led to the speculation of this second, Tifa specific variable affecting things. If the book means that, then, well, whoo.
Incidentally, 'Affectional rating FOR Cloud'
Not Cloud's affection for them. Cloud is static here. You don't change his affection, just the affection of others.
Give in to your anger! 
