Response the second- Aerbear, CR, and Aerbear again.
The high affection version specifically would be extremely important. It would change their relationship. But it's never again mentioned in the story. If something that important really happened, and it's canon, in my own honest opinion, it should have been mentioned in the story. From what we can see, it didn't have an impact, so I'm sticking with my guns and saying none of those three changeable events in FFVII are canon.
As mentioned, there are a lot more than three changable events in FF7, and if we're relating it to the things selected BY the AV mechanic, that's just two. The choice of person to run around GS with after Barret runs off AFFECTS the AV mechanic.
It's like how in Kotor 1/2, you can choose Revan's gender. So when trailers for the suck-it MMO (*cough* sellouts *cough) The Old Republic came out and showed Revan as a guy, I called it a placeholder. Then I read some Star Wars books where Revan is mentioned, and he's called a guy. It's officially part of the story, no way around it now. That's what I think is canon. I'm picky like that
But contrasting this, I DO know places where SW materials list deviations for the plot based on your choices in game. But this does not change that there is an official answer. Likewise, we've been showing on several occasions that the HAHW scene happened and it IS important. It's literally called one of the most important scenes in the game.
IIRC, you never did respond to me how the exile's gender affects future events.
Probably this is the argument from your guys side that I can understand the most.
Remember this line from Dismantled I brought up?
"Besides, I have Tifa at my side, I'm not fighting alone-- this is what Tifa taught me.
Cloud must have been feeling alone before, that he was fighting by himself, and Tifa is now helping him. Furthermore, most of the game, I saw him as fairly indifferent towards her, not someone I'd imagine him living with or considering part of his family. So that scene definitely, the way I see it, effected their relationship for the better.
There's no way Cloud's indifferent towards Tifa even during his headscrew period.
"Only Tifa's opinion matters." for one. Apologizing to her repeatedly for being a fake, hoping she got to meet the real Cloud he couldn't be, Tifa matters to Cloud.
Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
That part was about Kingdom Hearts, yes.
Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.
This part after, I took to meaning it's about Cloud's character. Sorry if I've offended you.
I thought we all knew if was a KH quote?
We do. But we also know it's referring to why Nomura did what he did in KH. It's not relevant to the FF7 narrative. Hell, apart from 'something warm' being the same as what Tifa wanted in AC, pretty much jack divided by squat of KH is relevant to an original game.
Whatever you say.
Oh good. Blanket agreement. I do so love when I get that.
I didn't say it was. But that she didn't know he never got accepted into SOLDIER says it's likely they didn't.
It's possible. But it's also possible he simply stopped sending letters once he got 'flunked' for SOLDIER, or merely only wished to send good news and the good news hadn't happened yet.
And even if Cloud never wrote, there's still six months of time to spend in each other's company BEFORE he leaves, which is what I was talking about in the first place.
Well, to me it looked like Barret changed his mind.
Barret was merely an excuse. It was the promise that convinced even Hardass Headscrew Cloud to stay.
I think there's even a quote that says he fights for AVALANCHE just because she asks.
I didn't mean he wasn't very interested in her, but he hadn't even spoken to her before then. We don't even know why he liked her. So that's my assumption.
You're correct we don't know why he liked her. It's never been said. But Cloud had to have spoken to her before the well.
Even IF ONLY to have asked her out to the well, and likely on numerous occasions before. Remember, Tifa had remembered that they were close, but on reflection, had to admit she guessed they weren't THAT Close. That suggests they spoke somewhat often, but not deeply, like you might expect with your neighbor, as they were.
And I'm saying we know he felt guilt because he cared about her and wanted her protected. We're saying he wanted that because he loved her. That's our answer.
And we are saying that this answer is itself a claim and should be supported by evidence or cut away with Okkam's razor as an unnecessary element. When I say embrace parsimony, I'm not just being glib. I am BEING glib, so you know, but not purely glib. I mean we should strive to ' not multiply entities beyond necessity' as William of Okkam's metaphorical razor is oft formulated as.
She's about the closest thing to a childhood friend he had, which is just sad. And we know that isn't exactly the truth, but she's still associated as that. Who knows why?
Because maybe not very good or very close friends, but they were friends.
I thought she asked because she wanted him around?
She did. She wanted him around partly to keep an eye on him.
Either way, she didn't really try to find out why he wasn't himself. If there was one person who is credited as knowing, it was Aerith.[/quote]
Tifa is stated too as well, and Cid, in the OG, notes Cloud was notably off before he went kibitz. And Cid had less time than Aerith to get to know Cloud.
And yes, she DID try and find out. But she was also having trouble doing so because Cloud knew things he should have had no way of knowing. She spends more than the entire first disc trying to find a way to figure out how to prove to Cloud he's not well without making it worse.
So, Cidrith and AeTi are valid pairings? Go go gadget lesbianism.
The younger part of Cloud says he will be so pleased to learn Tifa cares. And by withheld by false memories, I mean that he literally doesn't remember. He has those memories back now.
But that's not the 'younger part of Cloud' that's a form taken by Cloud's subconscious. It can remember and know things that happened when Cloud was far older.
And yes, if those memories are back, so are the feelings. We're told the feelings are still being held. Not held back, held.
And he hasn't given them. Why do you think that is, coming from the guy that always talks about interpretation and finding your own answers?
Because the man wants us to think and weasel out the correct answer. He's not going to hand us the answer. But the answer's there.
That doesn't mean 'Rufus ShinRa has opened up an international chain of puppy orphanages' is a valid answer, even though it's something not covered by the compilation.
He's still never said what those actual answers are. So why is that we're wrong?
Because through narrative analysis and a synthesis of the evidence, we can determine what the actual answers are. We don't need to be spoon fed. It's forensic narrative analysis, as ostentatious as that sounds.
And I'm saying, I don't think he meant that kind, but that he wouldn't impose his views of love/marriage/family on the story.
He laughs to indicate he did, though.
Like how when Tifa wonders if they're a "real family" - I think she meant a traditional family with a mother and father who were together, and kids. And by saying that things might not work between Cloud and Tifa, I think he meant that he wasn't going to impose what standards he has for their life.
Actually, he doesn't say 'things might not work between Cloud and Tifa' ever. He merely says things aren't going well.
As for 'a real family' with a mother and father, well, Cloud views Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene as his family. He views the kids as his responsibility, and he views Tifa as the mother in the family they formed.
Tifa might be worried about if they're a real family. Cloud would seem to have decided they are.
As it stands now, I know we have enough.
Then lay it out on the table. Evidence. In chronological order, showing a progression. It should be child's play.
The difference is that Vincent and Yuffie canonically join the party. We see that with our own eyes in everything after FFVII. That's a definite answer.
And even THEY are stated as being optional WRT the OG. Their being optional doesn't preclude them being canonicallly part of the party. Just as I have been trying to point out WRT the highwind scene.
Where does it say she wants Tifa and Cloud to romantically be together? She wants Tifa to support him. She's jealous that Tifa has that chance, but I never got the other impression.
She was jealous of the woman who got to live together with Cloud. And she entrusted ALL of her feelings to Tifa. I mean, unless you think that doesn't include a romantic feeling or three.
When have I denied this, really. Context also shows that there are two sides to this debate.
You've never denied it. But you've been obdurate about reading context previously.
And that there is a debate shows that there's two sides. But that's all it shows.
Then why special plead for Aerith's 'dear' being notably different?
Everything in the compilation is contradicted by something. SE hasn't really done the greatest job with being consistent
They typically wait longer than four months to do it.
Literally, Dirge of Cerberus was IN THE CAN by the time the novella got published. It had been released for previewing
It's a point that he considered Aerith a good friend, at least, but on its own, it doesn't say much.
Tres and me already cleared this up, I think.
You did. But it needs to be stressed so you can go back to whoever gave that to you and throttle them with it.
I'm not denying that. But I'm saying his guilt, and moreover, his entire character, isn't this one-sided.
You mean 'one dimensional?'
Cloud feeling Guilt towards Aerith primarily doesn't make him a one dimenstional character, nor does it make the guilt one dimensional. You don't need romance to make a multifaceted guilt. Hell, that makes the guilt less fully dimensional.
No. It isn't. I know that we all know these quotes. So if I'm putting emphasis on one part, that's the point I'm making. I'm sorry if you thought it was rude, it wasn't deliberate. I'll use the full quotes now, I just thought you knew what I meant.
You cited the start of a paragraph referring to two years later as the end of your citation, leaving off what the REST of the quote says about two years later.
Well, I'm reading it differently. Tifa's been jealous of Aerith before, when she was alive, for being so close to Cloud. So I'm thinking she might still be jealous.
Actually, it never says she was Jealous. It merely says she has complicated feelings. So even if you're insisting they're the same, you'll need to demonstrate it's jealousy in both cases. WRT to the future, you'll be FIGHTING the evidence.
Good to have your permission, then.
I note you ignored responding to the fact that both quotes mention guilt over failing to protect Aerith. Guilt. GUILT. Nothing else. Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate there is something else there, and that the something else IS what you say it is.
And evidence says we can reasonably believe either side without being delusional, retarded, fanatic, crazy, desperate, dishonest liars.
It also says you can believe AND be a delusional, retarded, fanatic, crazy, desperate, dishonest liar. Funny that.
It also says you can be misreading the evidence and be geneuinely mistaken but be too obdurate to admit such.
I can continue like this all day.
Simply put, guilt trips do not work on me. I've been in debates for too long and across too many subjects.
But if it's not a guilt trip,
'Feelings of desire' is exclusively to one version of that scene.
Mutual Confirmation of Romantic feelings Are not. QED.
But you know what, even if we ignore that, there's no feeling IN the other version of the scene. Scenes without feeling cannot be scenes in which mutual feelings are confirmed. Context. This is how you use it.
Er.
It's a jo-
You're getting frustrated, I can tell. It's just pixels, no reason to get really mad.
As has been mentioned twice, I don't get mad 'over pixels', simply willfull dishonesty, regardless of subject.
Additionally, I was not getting frustrated. I'm not even sure what led you to think I was being frustrated.
Lastly, for now, you kinda stopped just short of recognizing your mistake in crediting FF7 to the character designer instead of the head writer.
Also, you skipped over this in its entirety.
"Please, Aerbear, Anastar, don't give us this line- and it's completely a line. From 1997 until very recently, the Clerith position was not that there was insufficient evidence to say Cloud and Aerith were definitely the case. It was the exact opposite- that they definitely were. And you still don't consistently argue that we can't say for certain- even Anastar's essay she copy pasted here said that it could be certain."
Please, do you disagree that the position has been until very recently, that the Clerith position has largely been- including in Anastar's essay recently used in this debate by Anastar herself- that one CAN be certain about Cloud and Aerith getting together?
If you do disagree, then could you explain sites like Destiny Fulfilled and older iterations of Anastar's site, or the Forgotten Crater archives, where such a position was consistently argued?
If you agree, could you please explain why this position has changed, and when it did?
Still, that comment remains. So what I'm getting here is that none of Cait Sith's predictions can be taken to be reliable or useful in this debate?
Cait Sith's ability as a fortune teller is explicitly called unreliable by Square on several occasions, including in his various Ultimania profiles. The exception is mentioning his knowledge in BC, where he knows the location of items. If this isn't related to Reeve's position as head of Urban delevopment and the knowledge he'd have access to, it'd make him a decent douser. His ability to predict remains consistently besmirched.
It is if he gave such a heart-breaking speech while holding her lifeless body in his arms.
Contrast to his reaction to Zack and Tifa and Yuffie's reactions to Aerith. It's not quite as exceptional as it seems. Touching, yes. But not romantic on its own.
And if he went on to continue what Aerith had started to save the Planet.
Again, everyone does this. And Cloud has a personal vested interest in continuing her work to save the planet. He kind of has all his stuff there.
And if he expressed being able to meet Aerith is the land of supreme happiness.
Err, not quite. Yes, he said 'the promised land' is where one can meet Aerith, but unless we've got some AMAZING AeTi evidence here too, the boy AND the girl meant the afterlife.)
And if he keeps his own undying feelings for Aerith.
Keeps? Who said keeps? Quote says, IIRC, HAS. Keeps implies he might want them. Has just implies they are there.
And you get this from Aerith wanting Cloud to continue living? That she's handing Cloud over to Tifa?
That, and her entrusting all her feelings to Tifa, being jealous she got to live with Cloud... Doing it REPEATEDLY, the fact Cloud and Tifa have formed a family, have a future together, etc. etc. etc. etc.
But also, because I do think Aerith wants Tifa to be happy and get the man she wants, even though Aerith wanted him too.
So you're taking that to mean that Aerith is handing Cloud to Tifa? Whut?
This is the hand reach scene near the end of the game, isn't it?
Hand in Light- hand reaches to Cloud, scene immediately transitions, Tifa's hand is held in the same position as the hand in the light.
Now, without Maiden, one COULD say that the hand was Tifa's reaching across the body/mind gap to Cloud's consciousness again, but if one includes Maiden, it is Aerith leading Cloud conscious awareness back to body as his mind stands perplexed in the psychic realm. The hand overlap would then be deliberate on Aerith's part, one would think.
Eh? Ishtar is a love deity? I just know of her as an Egyptian Goddess...
She is. And not an Egyptian one. She is- hold on, let me get my Ancient peoples and their religions hat on- an Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of love, sex, and fertility, and one of her most prominent temples was located in Ninevah. She had Sumerian and IIRC Phoenician analogues, as well.
So... when Tifa was called a koibito, she is "a person who is in love" and not someone's "beloved".
Oh, nonononononono.
Trust me. Quex was being AMAZINGLY fucking sarcastic there regarding translations that have been hosted and for all I know Still ARE hosted on Anastar's site, and which were used in the period from 2006 to 2010 as evidence against Koibito meaning beloved, which nobody seems to have issue with it meaning now.
I think aerbear meant that Ryu shouldn't get mad because it was just a game.
And I get why Ryu would be mad. Problem is, none of us are doing it intentionally.
Like GLD said, try harder then, because you amazingly misunderstood Quex above by only considering a tiny part of her response.
GLD, would you mind, terribly, if I could ask to have your post again? I mean, the one we had been debating before. I can't seem to find it?[/QUOTE]
It's impossible to for me to tell what exactly's been covered/asked/answered/rebutted
but
I've never understood why the FF7 date mechanics are cited as proof of player choice. You don't really get to pick who Cloud dates. You can't, because you really have no idea exactly how much affection is going to be doled out for a given event. How am I supposed to know that Aerith gets +10 for being in my party when I fight Dyne? Or that Tifa only gets +3 for the exact same event (which has fuck all to do with romance anyway)?
Answer: you don't, and you can't, because the game doesn't tell you. Unless you know the exact affection value given by each choice - meaning you have a gameshark, or a walkthrough written by someone with a gameshark - what you get is a weighted crapshoot. The system is too inconsistent and haphazard to give the player a real choice. There is no point in using the dialogue system as a basis for validating a given interpretation.
You mean, Yuffie ISN'T interested in neglectful men who constantly ignore her? Well, I've got to rethink everything the dialogue options that give her AV taught me, then.
Something else I don't understand: why Nomura is being called a troll. (This isn't the first thread I've seen it in.) I don't think being inconsistent is trolling. Did I miss something? Is he really trying to piss people off, or is he maybe just trying too hard to please everyone?
It's not that he's inconsistent. Largely, it comes from his habit of playing very coy and close to the chest with regards to upcoming releases, with one of his crowning examples being lying about Namine and Kairi in KH2. It's more of a shorthand to discuss his habit of deliberate deception and equivocation regarding upcoming releases rather than an honest 'He's just trolling us for years and years' thing.
And finally,
Is the best quote of the thread. I've never understood why so much time and effort is wasted justifying wildly inconsistent interpretations of Cloud's behavior toward the main heroines.
I just want the evidence to come from when Aerith's alive, and be a bit better supported, since it doesn't seem to rise above the level of being attracted to her and considering her a good friend like all the other members do. It's POSSIBLE, it just needs a bit more supporting and a bit less supposing.
It's your interpretation of those facts that gave you that idea. You aren't right or wrong for interpreting it that way.
The Post-modernist philosophy. It fucking burns.
He was. Because when he referred to them being together in that time period, Nomura also stated that he didn't know if they were in a relationship.
No. When he decided on them being together, Nomura was certain the movie expressed a great truth about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. When he reported this decision, Nomura said Tifa was someone's beloved. The 'I've no clue/ don't care about two years between' quote comes between these two times.
Nojima wrote the story, but Nomura knows as much as he does. If he didn't know, it wasn't canon then.
Or Nojima and Nomura hadn't gone over the details of the intervening years yet. Because Nomura didn't know about their relationship in that particular span.
And every context of his statement refers to places, so that isn't really us not wanting to hear it.
It's also refering to Cloud being together with Tifa. And that being where he belonged. Something that is reiterated in the U10, and the CCU.
It specified it in the UO's. They shouldn't need to make a press release reminding us there are other versions
So, the U10 story summary is sufficient for the HAHW, then? Or the important scenes pages?
And yes, because they're in Advent Children.
And Cloud and Tifa move in together, start a family, raise some kids, have a future together. Things you'd expect from folks who confirmed mutual romantic feelings.
She does, and you are aware of that statement's colloquial meaning, yes?
I don't think the quote is misused, because he was talking about how he feels towards Cloud's character, that he doesn't want to actually say yes he is like this. But I am sorry I offended you.
It isn't irrelevant when we're talking about Cloud, I don't think.
But he's since gone and made numerous declarations about Cloud directly. So either he completely changed his mind, or he doesn't want to nail things down WRT KH. And even then, he still did later.
I have yet to see any source citing that he still does for sure.
So, Clerith can get by with no quotes that say Cloud loved Aerith, but we must demonstrate he definitely still loved Tifa.
Actually, we have one. It's been shown in this thread several times. It's been hemmed and hawwed at, mostly.
Sorry. If there was one person who is most credited as knowing, it was Aerith. I'm saying that because by the start of the game, she didn't know him at all. So when he said Tifa had to know him well enough to know he wasn't being himself, I'm saying Aerith knew from observation.
Again, Cid.
Also, Aerith knew because of her Deus Ex Machina powers (not joking, there's a quote saying she can tell because of her mysterious abilities), and even then, only knew he wasn't himself.
His younger self, who knew all of the things he was forgetting.
Who had access to every memory, not just those of his time period. If it's younger Cloud, then it's a younger Cloud who KNOWS EVERYTHING, and so KNOWS present day Cloud.
Like I said.. I've found a different answer.
We're saying that being an answer doesn't make it valid by default.
Just so we're all clear here, Harry/ Hermione is factually incorrect. That's the point GLD was making- just because people ship a couple or hold a position, it isn't automatically just as valid as all other positions. And just because people still argue for a position doesn't mean the argument is not effectively settled.
A "Cloud definitely loves Tifa" statement isn't there.
There are two. One you claim is 'only in the past', the other you claim is purely optional even though the most damning incident of it is flatly a statement of fact, not a conditional.
I think both of our interpretations are.
Despite being contradictory?
Even playing fast and loose with the meaning of valid, that really doesn't work.
Cloud is shown with two girls there. Why is that?
Because Tifa and Aerith, and Yuffie, and Barret, confess to his ass! All four dates are the subject of the entry regarding the dates. Literally it's just 'depending on how he acts, one of four people joins Cloud for a date' I paraphrase, but there's nothing more to that entry.
The thing is, Tifa confesses- or can confess- twice. The first time it fails- he's oblivious. The same time, it sticks- he's aware of her feelings.
I saw on a thread here a few people saying to rename the 'LTD is over' article because it was written to get people angry. That's where I got that from. And yes, I would call that trolling.
As the writer, no, I was not writing it to get people angry. That should settle that.
To give you an indication of what the text itself is talking about. Yuffie, Barret, or Tifa's date could be there and the text would tell us the same thing. The picture's basically a timestamp. For all the entries, even the one in the subheading. The TEXT is important. Picture says WHEN, Text says WHAT.
Who travels with you at the Gold Saucer.
That's directly selectable. Only the GS Date and the HA HW scene are VA affected.
What definite proof do you have that the HAHW scene had those impacts, that the low affection couldn't have too?
The conversation in the LAHW was apathetic and short. Apathetic and short conversations are not that easy to mesh with confidently starting a new life with Tifa and feeling it will succeed because he has her, forming a family, raising kids, having a future, etc. etc. etc. etc.
Well, Cloud thinking that he is suddenly not alone says he must not have felt that way.
Suddenly not alone?
Where are you getting suddenly?
How about that he physically stops moving towards the door when the promise is mentioned?
Guilt and shame brought on by not being able to protect people he cares about. And he cares about Aerith.
And Zack, and Jessie, and Tifa, and the Kids, etc.
Luluuuu
Pull the right strap, she's instantly disrobed.
Man has a point. Nomura's at most, 1/3rd of the process.
I thought he said he wasn't going to go into his views.
He said he didn't mean to. And then he laughed, indicating he failed.
If you're already laughing at it, probably I shouldn't bother..
Part of the problem is that you haven't been providing this 'enough' even before the laughter.
If you refuse to do either, we can accept a concession by refusal to engage. It is a valid move in a debate, though this is a far less formal method than most debates.
Fine. I'll fix this from now on.
Please, be mindful you do.
We're told feelings of desire happen in one version.
We're also told they happen. Period. End of sentence. So yes, guess which scene happened.
Okay, people are taking that article way too seriously, lol. It's just an article. It's well written - some people here don't even agree with it, but still appreciate it. And time and time again it's been said you CAN create a Clerith based article if you want and have it front paged....why are there still complaints about this?
WTF? This isn't accurate. I've tried this out with a game editor thingy called Jenova. It IS the affection value that effects this. She needs 50 points or higher for the HA scene. Any less and you get the LA one.
Quex, we only tested for that ONE variable. We didn't test shifting the TSV as well. What we CAN say is that the AV definitely affects the HAHW. We can't say other values do not. For all we know, Tifa's AV and the TSV both affect the flag, and if they together are above 50 or some other arbitrary value, you get the date.
Bolded part, Tres, she's not saying only FFVII has pages numbers linking to more info, she's saying that FFVII is the only one with the "more info" pages having deviations.
It's the only version that has different outcomes for the mentioned scenes. It's still no more saying 'there is no definitive answer in the narrative' than Shadow's deviation or Tidus's deviation says there's no definitive version in their stories.
EDIT
Also
Question:
Square posting a picture of Aerith and Cloud on the date saying "This can happen one of four ways" on the FTOIL page = posting a picture of the Clerith date only and saying "the Clerith date is romantic." But Square posting a picture of the HA scene and saying, "This happened" in a story summary = this may or may not happen. ..
what?
It makes sense if you tilt your head, squint your eyes, and assume the conclusion as your premise.
I don't get why the clerith date scene wouldn't be the most logical one to be canon. Considering Aerith dies, it makes sense that she'd be the one Cloud would go with. More impact and whatnot. Makes her death more tragic and a lot more sudden.
But, tis an opinion.
Besides, it's totally possible to get her date AND the HA HW scene. So it works out perfectly, story-wise.
I still hold they could all happen, but that's just me. If one must happen narratively, it would probably be Aerith or Tifa for narrativium purposes and other cues.
Because no one seems to want to comment on it... I seriously want a Clerith to address the fact that CLOUD is the non-varaible in the HW scene. I meant it when I said do the math.
Cloud(X) + Tifa(X) = HA
Cloud (X) + Tifa(Y)= LA
So even after knowing Aerith, even if you get the Aerith date, even if you don't use Tifa enough in battles and her affections don't match, Cloud still loves her. No matter which 'version' happens or which version is canon. Cloud's feelings have only ever been the question in regards to the LTD, and they haven't changed. They are constant and confirmed within that very scene--in either version. Unless someone wants to argue that Tifa doesn't love Cloud (and good luck with that) we do, in fact, have the answer and have had it since 1997.
I am sincerely waiting for a reply to this. Anyone?
The argument is that they're mutual in both versions, so you control Cloud's feelings by controlling Tifa's.
This is expressly wrong on several levels, but think about it. Since we know Tifa does love Cloud before this scene, it's unlikely she's stopped loving him for these few moments, and what we're controlling isn't her love. It's her confidence or some other emotion that doesn't rubberband once the scene's over.
So, the Love's still static.
Not only that, think about the POWER that gives Tifa. Cloud loves her as JUST much as she loves him and it's dependant on her. Is it limited to this one moment in time? Because it's some powerful Juju if you think about it.
