Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
Gym Leader Devil
Yay that's me!
But you've yet to answer - why did SE put the Date Scene picture on the page? IF the whole point was to canonize Cloti (as you claim), then why even put the Date scene picture on the page?
You know, I apologize. I really had a mental hurdle going in to answering your question, and I do not know why I couldn't manage to leap it properly.
That said, Tres seems to have sprinted right past the hurdle that held me up. His answer to the issue of "why is Aerith on this page" makes perfect sense. It IS a page all about moments of romantic expression. Tifa gets the main entry because she and Cloud MUTUALLY express their romance to each other. Aerith isn't even mentioned by name, but does have a place in that she attempts (unsuccessfully) to get her feelings across to Cloud if you get her date.
There was absolutely no reason to put the Date picture on the page under the caption of "Love Between Heroes" other than to picture a woman other than Tifa with Cloud.
See above, and I am genuinely sorry that I didn't realize this on my own in time to prevent the repetitions of these questions. Thanks Tres, for thinking excellently where I could not.
As the quote given to you before reads:
Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
Looks to me like Cloud is still wavering between heroines if his picture is shown with two different women on the FTOIL page. The other heroes aren't shown with two different women - just Cloud.
There is no evidence that Cloud is still wavering at all. And Cloud is just shown with one woman in the main entry on the page/only that woman is really discussed at all. Remember the text under what you insist on calling the Clerith Date picture refers only to the optional nature of the date and that one of several people will appear to take Cloud on said date. Tifa is one of those people, so despite being pictured THE TEXT is about her date as much as it is Aerith's.
And my counter question: why wouldn't it matter? The very fact that a picture of Cloud with a different woman appears on the same page as Cloud and Tifa under a title of "Love Between Heroes" obviously means that Cloud can waver between them, just like Kitase said. The mere fact that both pictures are labeled with a page number on which a deviation to the scene is discussed talks about optionality.
See above, or better yet wait and see it in Tres' replies that made me realize this. Aerith's date (and indeed, all the dates, even Barret's in a bizzare way) relate to romantic confessions and realizations. So yes, it does have a place on the page. But again, that is optional and such is stressed. It is everything you want the HA scene to be. The HA scene, on the other hand, has its opposite option mentioned on a different page, and the events that occurred are described in a very version agnostic way. We know that said events DID happen, so we know that the HA version DID happen. And there is, again, no evidence that Cloud was ever intended to waver beyond Aerith's death, and most certainly not beyond the HW scene.
Because I'm not wrong. The page numbers at the top of both pictures leads to a page which discusses the scene's deviations - which means the scene is optional.
But you are wrong, because that doesn't matter. It has a link to the page where the deviation is discussed, just like every other deviation in the book gets a discussion. This does not equate to the text on the FTOIL page itself informing you that the scene is optional as you claim. And in fact, going by that text with its version agnostic description of events, we can in fact tell which version happened.
Common sense says that if there are two heroines pictured with the hero under the title "Love Between Heroes" and both scenes are labeled as optional, it means the hero can love either one.
Common sense would be to be honest in a debate if you want respect. For instance, here you are claiming again that the scene is LABELED as optional. You just gave us a lesson on how labels work, so surely you didn't just invent this concept, right? Common sense would also dictate that you not try to give the scenes equal weight, even if they WERE both optional within the narrative rather than within an individual playthrough of the game. In the HW scene, we are told Cloud and Tifa confirm matching feelings, and we know full well they are of romance. We are similarly told that even if you GET the Aerith date and Aerith tries to give Cloud a clue, he's clueless even after.
Plus, SE has never said that the HA HW scene is canon. That's just something you guys have convinced yourselves of, and it's not true.
SE has never used the exact words "X is canon" about anything, ever. So I suppose I could say the entire series could have never happened at all and you'd have to accept my "interpretation" eh?
That is of course terrible hyperbole. But since you're still demanding to be spoon-fed or you will not eat at all (on this ONE issue at least) hyperbole seems appropriate.
SE needs not say "HA HW is canon" for us to know it is. Its all right there before you if you'd accept and embrace it. Of course, after all these years I'm sure someone (not saying it'd be you, just someone who shares your beliefs) would jump in and say "They said HA is canon, they never said LA is not!" or some similar tripe, and the LTD would keep right on going with an extra layer of crazy heaped on the heads of all present.
Those other deviations have a canonical version according to you - not according to SE.
So Tidus may or may not still be the dream of a Fayth who woke up and therefore may still be trapped on the Farplane? Shadow may or may not be dead? Story summaries have no weight whatsoever with you?
Common sense means something very different where you're from, don't it?
At any rate, there are no other deviations shown on the FTOIL page. Those are the ones I'm talking about.
No other such deviation existed to talk about, with regards to the events that page discusses. Otherwise, there would be one, and you'd have to claim they have no canon as well.
That's what the damned page is about only in your opinion. SE hasn't said that Cloti is canonized on that page, and it doesn't look to me like that's what SE is saying on that page. There's lots of people who agree with me, too.
I could say its much more than just MY "opinion" but I won't fall into an appeal to numbers like you did in that very paragraph. Again, I care not what many others say unless they are telling it to me themselves. Ergo, CR, aerbear, LL, they all have some weight by their simple presence when they present a point. These unnamed "lots of people" have none with me at the moment.
As for your attempt to turn fact into opinion, which is nothing new in here... well my response would be nothing new either so I can't really talk there. Just pretend I said the exact same thing that is always said when you pretend the HA version is not necessarily what happened as if that made any sense within the narrative. Let alone the fact that the information we're given clearly and concisely indicates it is in fact the divergence that actually happened.
Funny - I've said the same thing. However, I take my blinders off to notice that the girl's affection rating also affects Cloud's.
You take your blinders off, do you? How many more sets do you have under that pair then? Affection values are meaningless, arbitrary, and have no place in this discussion at all imo (and yes, that is an opinion of sorts for once). But even if they have a place here, you use them WRONG. Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret have an affection metric that determines the date sequence. Tifa has further actions determined by that rating, yet we are canonically told she loves Cloud so said rating is clearly meaningless as far as canon is concerned. And Cloud has no affection value to measure AT ALL. I say again, he DOES NOT HAVE such a metric for anyone else's to affect.
Nojima said otherwise. He said:
"Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same.[/COLOR][/FONT][URL="http://www.square-enix.co.jp/magazine/gamebooks/ff/7novel/index.html] ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix
Nojima says they will have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, which means they have problems between them personally. Nojima went on in the same interview to say that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith." Furthermore, Aerith is called a "love rival" in Tifa's 10th AU profile and the same profile says that Tifa's complicated feelings toward Aerith continue in AC/ACC because she knows that Cloud is dragging the past around because of Aerith.
Nojima says they'd have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, and yes that means they have problems between them personally. Couples usually do to varying extents, and considering their lives up to that point it'd be ridiculous if their couple problems were less than epic in proportion. But, that just reinforces that yes, they are a couple. And since we know they got past these issues and Cloud returned home "where he belongs" that's certainly not a mark in your favor.
Furthermore, Aerith's reference there says "things MIGHT have gone better" with her. Might as in, "could have." Could have as in "didn't." Didn't as in "she's dead and this is no longer an option one way or another." Similarly, Aerith WAS called a love rival. She is not referred to as such in more recent materials that I have seen. She is involved in Cloud and Tifa's problems as a symbol of Cloud's guilt and failure, not as a rival for his heart. And yes, Aerith is a big part of the reason Cloud is always dragging his burden around with him for the exact same reasons: guilt, shame, failure. Not love.
Then you have Nomura saying in Distance that Aerith lives on inside of Cloud, and the DoC game manual says that Cloud will never forget Aerith - which is literally translated as Aerith being engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.
DoC game manual = retardedly wrong on multiple counts. Aerith living on inside of Cloud AND all of her friends who loved her is purely metaphorical, not literal. No amount of twisting the way the Lifestream has been described as working will make it possible for her to "go back to the LS where she belongs" and also literally stay inside Cloud (and Cid, Tifa, Marlene, Barret... she'd be spread pretty thin eh?). And no, Cloud will never forget her, and she is engraved in his heart for the rest of his life. This does not prove he loves her, loved her, or will love her in any way. I know if someone murdered a close friend of mine, especially one under my protection, I'd never forget them. As if I forget any of my friends completely. Romance is not required for that.
We haven't seen a single hug or kiss between Cloud and Tifa, nor have we heard an "I love you" between them. Nothing about a "love" existing between Cloud and Tifa has been canonized except in your imagination.
Sadly we have not seen these things, this is true. But its clear there is romance there, else they wouldn't be on the FTOIL page at all. Its clear the romance is mutual from the text on that page, as opposed to the one sided (and not even understood by Cloud) feelings expressed on the dates. I'd like to see Cloud and Tifa being lovey, but its probably not going to happen. Its confirmed anyway, and I most certainly did not imagine any of it.
Optionally - the key word you are overlooking. Optionally does not equal canon until SE says so or at least gives indication of it in-game, in-novella, or in-movie, which hasn't happened. Therefore, your "proof" is insufficient.
This has been covered many times. I've explained it, Tres, Ryu, damn near everyone. You can tear at it all you like, that wall ain't comin' down Annie. And plenty of indications have come up since then, though they do not meet your protean standards.
I said nothing about rejection. I said that they don't have interest in one another romantically. That's backed up by things like Cloud sleeping in a separate room and being invited into the family by Marlene.
You HAVE said rejection in the past, I just used it as an example. I do not mean to step on your toes or insult you by doing so. And again, "mutual feelings of indifference" =/= making any sort of sense. We know Tifa is interested, and no amount of ridiculous twisting by use of the AV will change that. Ergo, lack of interest would just be ridiculous even IF you could reasonably say Cloud wasn't interested. Which is also just silly.
Oh, and Cloud sleeping in a separate room is a total assumption on your part. While him NOT sleeping in that largely unfurnished office space makes more sense, I've agreed that we cannot say for sure where he sleeps. Ergo, you cannot use it to back up a damn thing one way or another. The point about Marlene inviting him into the family has been torn apart many times already. Gonna need something else to back that up, your backup is non-existent or down already.
Prove it.
Already done. But you can't lead a gifthorse to water and look it in the mouth while making it drink. Wait...
And since you want to insult my manner of debating, I guess I should start doing the same to you and other Cloti's in return? After all, insults are so relevant to making a point. <_<
Note, as you yourself said I have insulted your manner of debating. Because you oftentimes have been shown to dishonestly twist the truth, mine quotes, and make shit up. If you stopped doing all that, I wouldn't have cause to insult your debate manners.
Also, while not relevant to making a point, an insult or two can sometimes be fun to throw. I know its how I've bonded with a lot of people in my lifetime. And they can help stave off frustration. So by all means, be a bit snarky with me if you like, it's only fair. Though of course I do ask that you make any snark you toss my way based in truth, so it remains fair.
Oh, I'm sorry. I brought that up because Tres brought it up:
In Aerith and Tifa's cases, we're even told by his 10th AU profile that he's oblivious to their intentions at that time. Yuffie's date is the only one in which Cloud becomes aware of a girl liking him, and he's overtaken with bashfulness.[/COLOR] ~originally posted by Tres
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370734&postcount=1470
And you seem to have missed the point he was making there. I'll let you talk to him about it, so I don't get accused of speaking for him again, but I am pretty sure you must've let it fly over your head.
Either way, your attempt to claim that Cloud is only oblivious at the start of the date has been shot down quite well already and needs no further attention from me.
Why would SE want a picture of Aerith on the page with Cloud if SE is wanting to say that Cloti is canon? Why didn't they put a picture of Lulu on the page with Tidus and Yuna? Why didn't they put a picture of Quistis on the page with Squall and Rinoa?
Lulu was Wakka's love interest, not Tidus'. I didn't play much of FFVIII so I will allow someone more knowledgeable to discuss Quistis and Squall/Rinoa. But, didn't you demand we stop using info from outside the Compilation? Oh wait no, you specified FFVI, so VIII and X are fine right?
This is especially true when SE has specified that there is a Love Triangle going on between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in the game manual, and when Kitase has said that the hero wavers between the two heroines. SE puts both girls on the page with Cloud under a title that says "Love Between Heroes" - that obviously means he can love either one.
There was indeed a Love Triangle, that is why we're here. Comments were made that Cloud wavered between the two girls, but nothing you've supplied supports such continuing on to the present day. And see above about your continued attempts to support your "Cloud can love either and there is no canon" position by way of the blurb about the date scene.
Trouble is, you know I'm right.
Trouble is, you know you're wrong. Your ship sank a long time ago. You're grasping at straws and making cannon noises with your mouth to pretend the ship-to-ship combat is still going on, but let's be realistic here.