The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Gym Leader Devil

Yay that's me!

But you've yet to answer - why did SE put the Date Scene picture on the page? IF the whole point was to canonize Cloti (as you claim), then why even put the Date scene picture on the page?

You know, I apologize. I really had a mental hurdle going in to answering your question, and I do not know why I couldn't manage to leap it properly.

That said, Tres seems to have sprinted right past the hurdle that held me up. His answer to the issue of "why is Aerith on this page" makes perfect sense. It IS a page all about moments of romantic expression. Tifa gets the main entry because she and Cloud MUTUALLY express their romance to each other. Aerith isn't even mentioned by name, but does have a place in that she attempts (unsuccessfully) to get her feelings across to Cloud if you get her date.

There was absolutely no reason to put the Date picture on the page under the caption of "Love Between Heroes" other than to picture a woman other than Tifa with Cloud.

See above, and I am genuinely sorry that I didn't realize this on my own in time to prevent the repetitions of these questions. Thanks Tres, for thinking excellently where I could not.

As the quote given to you before reads:

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Looks to me like Cloud is still wavering between heroines if his picture is shown with two different women on the FTOIL page. The other heroes aren't shown with two different women - just Cloud.

There is no evidence that Cloud is still wavering at all. And Cloud is just shown with one woman in the main entry on the page/only that woman is really discussed at all. Remember the text under what you insist on calling the Clerith Date picture refers only to the optional nature of the date and that one of several people will appear to take Cloud on said date. Tifa is one of those people, so despite being pictured THE TEXT is about her date as much as it is Aerith's.

And my counter question: why wouldn't it matter? The very fact that a picture of Cloud with a different woman appears on the same page as Cloud and Tifa under a title of "Love Between Heroes" obviously means that Cloud can waver between them, just like Kitase said. The mere fact that both pictures are labeled with a page number on which a deviation to the scene is discussed talks about optionality.

See above, or better yet wait and see it in Tres' replies that made me realize this. Aerith's date (and indeed, all the dates, even Barret's in a bizzare way) relate to romantic confessions and realizations. So yes, it does have a place on the page. But again, that is optional and such is stressed. It is everything you want the HA scene to be. The HA scene, on the other hand, has its opposite option mentioned on a different page, and the events that occurred are described in a very version agnostic way. We know that said events DID happen, so we know that the HA version DID happen. And there is, again, no evidence that Cloud was ever intended to waver beyond Aerith's death, and most certainly not beyond the HW scene.

Because I'm not wrong. The page numbers at the top of both pictures leads to a page which discusses the scene's deviations - which means the scene is optional.

But you are wrong, because that doesn't matter. It has a link to the page where the deviation is discussed, just like every other deviation in the book gets a discussion. This does not equate to the text on the FTOIL page itself informing you that the scene is optional as you claim. And in fact, going by that text with its version agnostic description of events, we can in fact tell which version happened.

Common sense says that if there are two heroines pictured with the hero under the title "Love Between Heroes" and both scenes are labeled as optional, it means the hero can love either one.

Common sense would be to be honest in a debate if you want respect. For instance, here you are claiming again that the scene is LABELED as optional. You just gave us a lesson on how labels work, so surely you didn't just invent this concept, right? Common sense would also dictate that you not try to give the scenes equal weight, even if they WERE both optional within the narrative rather than within an individual playthrough of the game. In the HW scene, we are told Cloud and Tifa confirm matching feelings, and we know full well they are of romance. We are similarly told that even if you GET the Aerith date and Aerith tries to give Cloud a clue, he's clueless even after.

Plus, SE has never said that the HA HW scene is canon. That's just something you guys have convinced yourselves of, and it's not true.

SE has never used the exact words "X is canon" about anything, ever. So I suppose I could say the entire series could have never happened at all and you'd have to accept my "interpretation" eh?

That is of course terrible hyperbole. But since you're still demanding to be spoon-fed or you will not eat at all (on this ONE issue at least) hyperbole seems appropriate.

SE needs not say "HA HW is canon" for us to know it is. Its all right there before you if you'd accept and embrace it. Of course, after all these years I'm sure someone (not saying it'd be you, just someone who shares your beliefs) would jump in and say "They said HA is canon, they never said LA is not!" or some similar tripe, and the LTD would keep right on going with an extra layer of crazy heaped on the heads of all present.

Those other deviations have a canonical version according to you - not according to SE.

So Tidus may or may not still be the dream of a Fayth who woke up and therefore may still be trapped on the Farplane? Shadow may or may not be dead? Story summaries have no weight whatsoever with you?

Common sense means something very different where you're from, don't it?

At any rate, there are no other deviations shown on the FTOIL page. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

No other such deviation existed to talk about, with regards to the events that page discusses. Otherwise, there would be one, and you'd have to claim they have no canon as well.

That's what the damned page is about only in your opinion. SE hasn't said that Cloti is canonized on that page, and it doesn't look to me like that's what SE is saying on that page. There's lots of people who agree with me, too.

I could say its much more than just MY "opinion" but I won't fall into an appeal to numbers like you did in that very paragraph. Again, I care not what many others say unless they are telling it to me themselves. Ergo, CR, aerbear, LL, they all have some weight by their simple presence when they present a point. These unnamed "lots of people" have none with me at the moment.

As for your attempt to turn fact into opinion, which is nothing new in here... well my response would be nothing new either so I can't really talk there. Just pretend I said the exact same thing that is always said when you pretend the HA version is not necessarily what happened as if that made any sense within the narrative. Let alone the fact that the information we're given clearly and concisely indicates it is in fact the divergence that actually happened.

Funny - I've said the same thing. However, I take my blinders off to notice that the girl's affection rating also affects Cloud's.

You take your blinders off, do you? How many more sets do you have under that pair then? Affection values are meaningless, arbitrary, and have no place in this discussion at all imo (and yes, that is an opinion of sorts for once). But even if they have a place here, you use them WRONG. Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret have an affection metric that determines the date sequence. Tifa has further actions determined by that rating, yet we are canonically told she loves Cloud so said rating is clearly meaningless as far as canon is concerned. And Cloud has no affection value to measure AT ALL. I say again, he DOES NOT HAVE such a metric for anyone else's to affect.

Nojima said otherwise. He said:
"Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same.[/COLOR][/FONT][URL="http://www.square-enix.co.jp/magazine/gamebooks/ff/7novel/index.html] ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix

Nojima says they will have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, which means they have problems between them personally. Nojima went on in the same interview to say that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith." Furthermore, Aerith is called a "love rival" in Tifa's 10th AU profile and the same profile says that Tifa's complicated feelings toward Aerith continue in AC/ACC because she knows that Cloud is dragging the past around because of Aerith.

Nojima says they'd have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, and yes that means they have problems between them personally. Couples usually do to varying extents, and considering their lives up to that point it'd be ridiculous if their couple problems were less than epic in proportion. But, that just reinforces that yes, they are a couple. And since we know they got past these issues and Cloud returned home "where he belongs" that's certainly not a mark in your favor.

Furthermore, Aerith's reference there says "things MIGHT have gone better" with her. Might as in, "could have." Could have as in "didn't." Didn't as in "she's dead and this is no longer an option one way or another." Similarly, Aerith WAS called a love rival. She is not referred to as such in more recent materials that I have seen. She is involved in Cloud and Tifa's problems as a symbol of Cloud's guilt and failure, not as a rival for his heart. And yes, Aerith is a big part of the reason Cloud is always dragging his burden around with him for the exact same reasons: guilt, shame, failure. Not love.


Then you have Nomura saying in Distance that Aerith lives on inside of Cloud, and the DoC game manual says that Cloud will never forget Aerith - which is literally translated as Aerith being engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.

DoC game manual = retardedly wrong on multiple counts. Aerith living on inside of Cloud AND all of her friends who loved her is purely metaphorical, not literal. No amount of twisting the way the Lifestream has been described as working will make it possible for her to "go back to the LS where she belongs" and also literally stay inside Cloud (and Cid, Tifa, Marlene, Barret... she'd be spread pretty thin eh?). And no, Cloud will never forget her, and she is engraved in his heart for the rest of his life. This does not prove he loves her, loved her, or will love her in any way. I know if someone murdered a close friend of mine, especially one under my protection, I'd never forget them. As if I forget any of my friends completely. Romance is not required for that.

We haven't seen a single hug or kiss between Cloud and Tifa, nor have we heard an "I love you" between them. Nothing about a "love" existing between Cloud and Tifa has been canonized except in your imagination.

Sadly we have not seen these things, this is true. But its clear there is romance there, else they wouldn't be on the FTOIL page at all. Its clear the romance is mutual from the text on that page, as opposed to the one sided (and not even understood by Cloud) feelings expressed on the dates. I'd like to see Cloud and Tifa being lovey, but its probably not going to happen. Its confirmed anyway, and I most certainly did not imagine any of it.

Optionally - the key word you are overlooking. Optionally does not equal canon until SE says so or at least gives indication of it in-game, in-novella, or in-movie, which hasn't happened. Therefore, your "proof" is insufficient.

This has been covered many times. I've explained it, Tres, Ryu, damn near everyone. You can tear at it all you like, that wall ain't comin' down Annie. And plenty of indications have come up since then, though they do not meet your protean standards.

I said nothing about rejection. I said that they don't have interest in one another romantically. That's backed up by things like Cloud sleeping in a separate room and being invited into the family by Marlene.

You HAVE said rejection in the past, I just used it as an example. I do not mean to step on your toes or insult you by doing so. And again, "mutual feelings of indifference" =/= making any sort of sense. We know Tifa is interested, and no amount of ridiculous twisting by use of the AV will change that. Ergo, lack of interest would just be ridiculous even IF you could reasonably say Cloud wasn't interested. Which is also just silly.

Oh, and Cloud sleeping in a separate room is a total assumption on your part. While him NOT sleeping in that largely unfurnished office space makes more sense, I've agreed that we cannot say for sure where he sleeps. Ergo, you cannot use it to back up a damn thing one way or another. The point about Marlene inviting him into the family has been torn apart many times already. Gonna need something else to back that up, your backup is non-existent or down already.

Prove it.

Already done. But you can't lead a gifthorse to water and look it in the mouth while making it drink. Wait...

And since you want to insult my manner of debating, I guess I should start doing the same to you and other Cloti's in return? After all, insults are so relevant to making a point. <_<

Note, as you yourself said I have insulted your manner of debating. Because you oftentimes have been shown to dishonestly twist the truth, mine quotes, and make shit up. If you stopped doing all that, I wouldn't have cause to insult your debate manners.

Also, while not relevant to making a point, an insult or two can sometimes be fun to throw. I know its how I've bonded with a lot of people in my lifetime. And they can help stave off frustration. So by all means, be a bit snarky with me if you like, it's only fair. Though of course I do ask that you make any snark you toss my way based in truth, so it remains fair.

Oh, I'm sorry. I brought that up because Tres brought it up:

In Aerith and Tifa's cases, we're even told by his 10th AU profile that he's oblivious to their intentions at that time. Yuffie's date is the only one in which Cloud becomes aware of a girl liking him, and he's overtaken with bashfulness.[/COLOR] ~originally posted by Tres

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370734&postcount=1470


And you seem to have missed the point he was making there. I'll let you talk to him about it, so I don't get accused of speaking for him again, but I am pretty sure you must've let it fly over your head.

Either way, your attempt to claim that Cloud is only oblivious at the start of the date has been shot down quite well already and needs no further attention from me.

Why would SE want a picture of Aerith on the page with Cloud if SE is wanting to say that Cloti is canon? Why didn't they put a picture of Lulu on the page with Tidus and Yuna? Why didn't they put a picture of Quistis on the page with Squall and Rinoa?

Lulu was Wakka's love interest, not Tidus'. I didn't play much of FFVIII so I will allow someone more knowledgeable to discuss Quistis and Squall/Rinoa. But, didn't you demand we stop using info from outside the Compilation? Oh wait no, you specified FFVI, so VIII and X are fine right?

This is especially true when SE has specified that there is a Love Triangle going on between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in the game manual, and when Kitase has said that the hero wavers between the two heroines. SE puts both girls on the page with Cloud under a title that says "Love Between Heroes" - that obviously means he can love either one.

There was indeed a Love Triangle, that is why we're here. Comments were made that Cloud wavered between the two girls, but nothing you've supplied supports such continuing on to the present day. And see above about your continued attempts to support your "Cloud can love either and there is no canon" position by way of the blurb about the date scene.

Trouble is, you know I'm right. :P

Trouble is, you know you're wrong. Your ship sank a long time ago. You're grasping at straws and making cannon noises with your mouth to pretend the ship-to-ship combat is still going on, but let's be realistic here. :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I don't have much time to respond and only limited options in how to do so, aerbear, but there are a few things that need to be pointed out pronto.

First, the "undying feelings" quote is, perhaps, the LTD's ultimate quote mine in that it contains both an incomplete quote and an outright lie as to when it was said. Some time ago, someone (I'm not sure who) took a quote from Nomura that he had said in 2003, about a month after the AC project was unveiled to the public, slapped "November 2007" on it and cut off the last couple lines -- all to remove its context and to make it look like a post-Advent Children quote. They then started peddling it as such.

I can get you the rest of the full quote after I'm off work, but -- to paraphrase -- he says something like this about that undying feeling: "Its relation to the church scene is ... Well, I'll leave that to your imagination for now."

Now, I don't know if you remember the Tokyo Game Show trailers that unveiled AC's existence, but at the time Nomura said that, the only church scene we had been shown was Cloud walking through the pews. In the released film, we learned that this is the scene where Cloud finds Tifa after she has been beaten by Loz. It's also one of the guilt wolf's appearances.

That was the undying feeling Nomura was talking about: guilt. The wolf appears in that scene.

Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is this "placeholders" argument you keep coming back to. You're claiming they can't just skip a scene with optional elements in a story summary, so they just throw something in there without regard to what it is. I already addressed this in my previous response to you, but they can and have skipped optional elements.

The date is skipped in the 10th AU's summary (the Highwind scene wasn't, though; the high affection version is explicitly included, without mention of affection ratings anywhere in the book). The manner in which Cloud, Tifa and Barret enter the Shin-Ra building is also typically glossed over.

Also, as I said previously, they could easily go with a neutral presentation even if they didn't want to skip something.

The placeholders argument is just silly and baseless.

One other thing: you keep saying Cloud had felt alone until the night under the Highwind, and that it's support he and Tifa could have confessed to one another. You dismissed most of my previous address to this, but even if you disregard all the previous moments support was expressed, you still need to provide reasonable cause to believe that Cloud was saying he had only just learned that he has Tifa's support.

And that's without even going into the questionable canonicity of things that Benny Matsuyama wrote. Generally, I see no issue with accepting them, but SE doesn't ever seem to refer back to any of it, and always emphasises the optional nature of the Gold Saucer date, despite Benny explicitly going with Aerith's date -- so there's room for doubt about that stuff.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.

Its been pointed out both where it was said, and where it appears in the story. Just scroll back a ways, you'll see it.

I know Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine are canon. But I'm saying, if people don't ship them, let them.

And I am saying shipping is all well and good so long as you don't argue that Harry/Ginny is not canon. Because that is a bald-faced lie, you see. Was my point really unclear about this?

Cloud and Tifa aren't married and they don't have to be to take care of Marlene and Denzel.

And they don't have to be to be a couple any more than they need to be married to raise kids. I knew something like that would be said, and I left it open just so I could respond as I am now.

She isn't mentioned by name in Advent Children. But she's an important part.

And who Tifa is a koibito to is not mentioned by name in the ultimania. But its both relevant and easily filled in by context. That standard you just used, apply it outside your ship.

If it's irrelevant, it shouldn't have been on that page. It is. So it isn't irrelevant.

I stated the relevance of it in my last reply to Annie, now that Tres has kick started my brain into seeing said relevance. As far as tearing down the fact that Cloti is canon, however, it still IS irrelevant.

The description says it's optional,

For the date, yes it does.

just like how right above the Highwind picture is a page number, and on that page, it explains that it's optional.

No it doesn't, it directs you to a deviation you can optionally see in your playthrough of the game. Within the narrative as it is being told to us via summary and such, it is not optional at all and people need to stop pretending it is.

It isn't right in the description,

There is a reason for this.

but it's there. They're both written in that book as optional.

Again, no.

I'm not saying everyone who believes Cloud and Tifa are canon are trolls, at all. I know a few really nice people who think they're canon and I don't think they're trolls.

You flat said "I don't think you really believe this." I'd go back and quote it, but I'm lazy and I'm sure it was seen before. You are now backpedaling.

Doesn't the page also say that it's about love developing between the hero and heroine? There are two heroines in the game, and one hero, and we already know it's officially a love triangle, so it makes since that all three of them are there. If you think that page closes the LT, then Cloud must love both girls.

There were two heroines in the game. There was a love triangle. This does not mean the love triangle cannot end with a definitive conclusion. It does make sense that the dates get a mention as per the fact that a confession of feelings is attempted on said dates. All of them, in fact. As in not just Aerith's. Even if it was just Aerith, Cloud is officially oblivious to said attempt at the time. Tifa is the only person who succeeds at making Cloud aware of her feelings, and Cloud in turn reveals that his feelings match. Ergo, Cloud need not love both girls, just Tifa.

Now, I want to point out again that I DO believe Cloud had feelings for Aerith that at the very least border on crossing the friendship line. And that does not prevent him from ending up with Tifa either.

The time when you meet Cait Sith, one person goes with you. That person depends on the date mechanics.

That was a direct player choice. It was not controlled by arbitrary mechanics.

The power of friendship *sings*

Power of Friendship is not apathetic. I laughed, otherwise it would fail even as a joke.

It does fit with the LA version because the next day he says to Tifa "It's all right Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."

That doesn't fit at all. Thinking they're the only two people who are going to head down and fight Sephiroth =/= them starting a new life together, with Cloud sure he can succeed because he has her in a different way from before. It does not fit with them adopting and raising kids together. It does not fit at all.

I didn't say it did. But they put special emphasis on Cloud's feelings for Aerith, so she was a very dear friend and different from the rest, not just a source of guilt and sadness in his life.

And I never said that she is nothing but a source of guilt and sadness in his life. If he didn't care for her in some way, he wouldn't BE so guilty and ashamed. But those are the feelings they emphasize. In fact, that's all they directly spell out, period. So that's what we're working with.

I bet Nomura was the first person to jump on board for an FFX remake :lol:

I would tend to agree with this.

'Tis not dismissive.

Then how about a comment on the matter? If you're not dismissing it, then lets bring it into the conversation from both sides. No rush of course, just as it comes up again.

The translation I've been given is that he says "I don't want to go into my views..."

I'm gonna stick with the quote I'm familiar with myself. It makes more sense, that laugh, if he's talking about something he didn't intend to do but did anyway. If he is talking about the story and not making a meta-comment about the interview he is in the middle of, something that doesn't warrant laughter.

I don't have anything concrete that you have to agree with. I don't think my ship is canon anyway.

If you've got nothing concrete, then why do you buy into this "there is no canon" position again? You don't think your ship is canon, but you'll argue forever that Cloti isn't either despite the evidence supporting it. Why?

And I said I would fix it. :)

Haven't spotted any quote mining on your part since, so thank you :awesome:


And from here this is directed at other awesome people, so I'll cherry pick what I feel the need to comment on from here instead of being comprehensive.



So, what DOES lead to him doing all these things that bind him ever tighter in his relationship to Tifa then? Could it be love?! :awesomonster:

It's his last monologue in the book (if I remember right, it's either during or directly after the Highwind scenes.) :)

Then my comments about how it makes perfect sense that he is talking about realizing romance with her, and that the monologue is therefore on a different level than the friendships HE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT, stands perfectly well.

I agree. But I don't think he treated her that great for most of the game.

He wasn't himself for most of the game.

By "still holding", I think it means those feelings are literally being withheld by his memories, and at the end of it, he remembers - but I don't know or think it means that he just continues feeling them.

Gonna single out this line, cause with the exception of your still calling the subconscious' manifestation "young Cloud" I at least partially agree with the first part of that paragraph. So, focusing in on your talk about still holding, I need to ask a question of one or more of our translation capable members.

Is the language for "still holding feelings" as in feeling them through the present day different than "still holding back?" My limited knowledge of Japanese makes me think it would be, but I'd hate to put my foot in my mouth by saying so without checking.

Either way, as translated it really appears he is still feeling those feelings, not that the quote refers to those feelings being held back. Especially since if they are being held back from his recollection, the promise wouldn't have meant much to him/he wouldn't have remembered it at all until after the LS sequence. And, how do you hold something back that isn't there any more?

I think that's up to interpretation. If he can romantically reject Tifa in the LA version, for example, and only express feelings of desire in the HA version, I think that backs it up. (I'm expecting somebody will come in and say "Oh, you mean THE CANON VERSION!?" :lol: )

And there is the rejection nonsense I brought up while debating Annie. And again, we are told that the confirmation of feelings DID happen. So yes, that is the canon version.

No, I know now. It just seemed to me that from what people were saying, it was written to get people mad.

People did get mad, but that's all on them.

There are three changeable events controlled by the date mechanics. And the first changeable event is supposed to be who goes with you when you meet Cait Sith :)

No, you just get to pick that. You choose who goes with you, with Barret taken off the list since he rages out and leaves. You can only choose one, thus leaving a space open for Cait Sith to force his way into the party.

Fairly indifferent, as in, he should have treated her better in certain parts. He's a lot nicer to her after, and that's just my opinion.

And yet even when he is deep in his false persona, he still clearly feels a sense of importance to Tifa above all others.

But I already said I'd amend it anyway. And I forgot. Kingdom Hearts is a touchy subject :awesome:

And I for one thank you.

Both of our thoughts are possible. Good enough for me. :)

It all ends up in the same place either way.

It didn't say that's why, just this happened and then this happened.
Not trying to be mean or rain on the parade or anything, I'll go with it ^_^

You kinda did, as I recall you claimed Cloud's leaving was stopped not by the promise or anything else related to Tifa, but by cold hard Gil thrown out by Barret. I am sure you said as much to me at the least. And the quote provided proves that position wrong. Don't backpedal and say you didn't say something you said. But yes, do change your stance and go with it :monster:

I'm not exactly sure where it was, but I remember a quote saying the boys gave her letters inviting her to go to the well?

I remember someone claiming that the invites to the well came by letter at some point in this thread. I do not remember such ever being supported.

And he thought she hated him.

Support this, please. Cause I recall him hating her friends and thinking she was indifferent to him at best, I never saw him say he thought she hated him once.

It's supported that it isn't just guilt by the fact that he's feeling that guilt because he wanted to protect her. I'm saying he cared about her a lot, and it doesn't have to be in a romantic way, I understand, but that's the way some of us interpret it.

Totally agreed with this entire paragraph. Even with how some of you interpret it romantically, because it is fact that some hold that position. You cannot SUPPORT that position, however, and that's what matters here.

SE has bad standards for friends... :lol:

Well that's a slap in the face to every awkward kid who has very few friends and latches on to people they're not very close to as FRIENDS. People like I used to be, in fact.

You said Tifa had to know him well before she met him again to know he wasn't being himself, but if Cid and Aerith noticed and hadn't even known him before the Jenova cells got to him, they made it off of observation. I think Tifa did too.

Tifa had the advantage of his memories and actions not matching up with her own recollection of events. Aerith had the advantage of magical Cetra powers, which is the stated reason for how she figured out he was off (this was cited in this very thread not long ago). Cid gets big cred for being the one with no advantages who still knew Cloud was a fruit loop.

At any rate, even if Tifa didn't know him as well as she thought, she still DID know him better than everyone else. Simply by knowing him as a kid, even just as a neighbor and town bully, that much is not really arguable.

He thinks of them as his family, but it doesn't say he thinks of her as a wife or something.

Put this together with the rest of the proof rather than view it on its own. Then its hard not to see that they are living as a father and mother in love, marriage not required.

Square has made it notably different.

"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura, Dengeki Playstation magazine 2007

Not that this quote you JUST used specifies that all of Aerith's comrades and indeed even the players are believed by the creator to have their own feelings and loves for Aerith. And really, Cloud being singled out specifically is no surprise considering he is the freakin' protagonist. This is not evidence that his feelings are bigger or more important than everyone else's.

His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.

But even if he still has undying feeling post ACC, that doesn't mean he loves her.

*searches for website and throttles them*

There ya go, get it out of your system. :muhaha: Give in to your anger! :muhaha:

I meant that, sometimes people act like it's only guilt, and forget that she was a friend, and he wasn't just hurt by her death because he thought he failed, but at least because of that friendship.

Agreed, despite the focus always being placed on the guilt. There is more than just guilt to Cloud's feelings with Aerith. This once again doesn't mean love. Friendship yes, he's no doubt sad that she died and would be even without the guilt he feels due to being her bodyguard and failing to save her. But it does not mean they were ever going to get together, let alone support them doing so POST-AERITH stabbing.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival." -10th AU, Tifa's profile

Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. -10th AU

I interpret those to meaning she is jealous. What do you think they mean?[/quote]

Its not directly stated by SE, so how are we supposed to know? :awesome:

Now, Tifa does flat out admit on her date that she's somewhat jealous of Aerith's ability to be forthright, so there is that. But really, two close friends both have it bad for the same guy. Can you not see any emotion other than jealousy that might be called peevish stemming from that?

I mentioned this up above. That he feels that guilt because he cares.

Still not support for Clerith, nor for this "there is no canon" stuff. Just saying.

He still says and thinks, regardless, that he's glad to have her at his side and not be alone.

Which is more than he ever said to Aerith, yes. And you are ignoring the bit about context and what it tells us. Which is a shame, that part seemed fairly important.

Whatever you say. :)

Look, ANOTHER blanket agreement :monster:

I didn't even see it, and Nomura directed AC/C, and he's as important.

I saw it. And character designer does not equal head writer in terms of developing the plot of the narrative.

I've never seen this before.

Again, I at least did.

I don't think the LT has been officially closed, and from what I know of Anastar, I think she shares this belief. Maybe it's an old essay or she just changed her mind. :) You'll have to ask her.

It is an old essay. I've seen a less up to date version of the exact essay some years ago I believe.

He would be where Tifa is.

He belongs where Tifa is, yes. And why does he belong where Tifa is again? Because TIFA IS THERE! AND HE BELONGS WITH HER! :awesomonster:

No. I am calling it's inclusion in the summary a placeholder. Like the Aerith date has been.

Since when does a placeholder get chosen as one of the four most important scenes in a game? How do you reconcile your belief that it is "just a placeholder," which is inherently unimportant, with the fact that this scene was listed as more important than the freakin' ending of the game?

Barret and Tifa have moved in together, raised Marlene, technically had a future at some point before FFVII. :awesome:

*sigh* They were part of an eco-terrorist cell, so yes they lived in the same place for a time. Marlene needed looking after, but there is no indication that they exactly did this "together." And it has NEVER been said they had a future together at any point. Please, just stop trying to bullshit us with this Barret/Tifa nonsense.

Just trying to ease the tension.

What tension? And if you're just cracking wise to ease this supposed tension, then why are people mistaking you for serious?

Dude. We base Cloud and Aerith mostly off observation, like we did back in 1997.

Observation of a lot of things that aren't there at all it would seem. Since none of it is verifiably about what you claim it is.

The Ultimanias are described as informational books, right? Giving detail to what we already know. What's telling the story are the games and the movie. If Cloud and Tifa are going to be made canon, it should be made within the story itself. Nobody's gotten back to me about this, so uh..

Pretty sure we have. In that it has been pointed out that the information in the books is all about the things that we were shown in the games, films, and novellas. With regards to the Ultimanias, they have spelled out what WAS shown in the games/films/novellas sufficiently that it shouldn't need interpreting anymore, if indeed it ever did.

Cloud and Tifa aren't shown to be in a romantic relationship in the story - the games, novellas, and movie.

Its subtle, but its there. And such has been further spelled out by the guide books.

"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like..."

That's what we're going to do. We're going by not just Nomura, but Square's telling of the entire story. You definitely have a case, but as the Compilation stands currently, their just isn't enough to say it's canon right now.

Except the exact thing you're arguing against HAS been shown in the games/films. Ergo, not what they were talking about there. Thank you for at least admitting that we have a case. But, like it or not, there is plenty to say its canon.

Yes. Because there are answers in the plural. Like I said... if you see it a different way, you'll find that possible answer. Until they say otherwise.

Multiple questions need multiple answers. Correct me if I am wrong, but the LT is not the only thing people might have questions about yes? It is not the only thing that quote is referring to, right?

And again, you obstinately refuse to accept that just because multiple answers are possible, that does not mean a single answer cannot be the correct one.

Maybe Cloud loves both girls.

Maybe he does, but he's still with Tifa.

Text says flip some pages and they're both written as optional.

Keep saying it, tis still not what the text says. Text says flip some pages and you can read about a possible way the scene could be shown. Text on the page says the version ON THE PAGE is what DID happen. End of.

I mesh it easily.

How? Explain this, because by any standard of reason I know, they do not mesh.

Because he isn't ignoring her?

Definitely not ignoring her. So, why didn't he if this is so unimportant to him?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
aerbear wrote: Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.
I'm so tired of repeating this:

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless. (page 25, UO)


He WAS holding the feelings he told her about in the lifestream. That's past progressive. I KNOW past progressive means it's in the past, but that argument is invalid because the whole book is written in past tense. And we know the feelings are the romantic type since it references the promise scene.

If I was writing a book in past tense and said:
"Even though Tres was selling apples from long ago, Ryu did not start until a year ago.

BTW with Ryu, he did not realize Tres was selling apples until Tres informed him at the picnic."

that would mean he's still selling apples at the time of the picnic. It's the same thing here. Cloud is still holding those feelings in the Lifestream. NOT past feelings. He's holding the feelings as he's speaking to her.


Now okay, I can see how someone who's unaware that the book was written in past tense could make an argument against this, but you have to jump though major grammar hurdles to say otherwise.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing-Grammar-680/2011/2/Past-progressive.htm

EDIT
we then go to THIS gem in the 20th AU:
Cloud reveals his feelings for Tifa in the mental world

Nothing about "past feelings" or anything there. Just his feelings. They are feelings he has for Tifa... what are they? The UO tells us. This really should make it pretty clear.

That is all.


EDITII

"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura, Dengeki Playstation magazine 2007

It really really annoys me that someone quote mined this and got the date wrong. And if I can be a bitch for a minute, the fact that one side has to cut off the ends of statements and lie and say a quote is from 2007 when it's from 2003 is really telling. Just saying :monster:
 
Last edited:

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
I have beef with this "past feelings" argument. I think if Cloud's feelings for Tifa no longer count during the LS sequence, then it would make no narrative sense for the creators to spend time on these "past emotions" for them to have no grounds in the present and future of the story. That is not the general nature of "flashbacks" in a narrative and it would not fit with the context of the story, given Cloud's "nothing has changed" line.

This is why it is my firm belief that the LS sequence is where C/T really starts and it is in this sequence that the notion of Cloud being in love with Tifa is cemented.
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
Just to clarify something...

Support this, please. Cause I recall him hating her friends and thinking she was indifferent to him at best, I never saw him say he thought she hated him once.

It's during the Lifestream sequence, when little!Cloud tells how he felt when he called Tifa at the well. They were in her room and he talks about how prejudiced he was against her friends.

(The double speaks again.)
"That night I called Tifa out to the well..."
"I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me."
Which is actually Cloud overthinking again, because Tifa did come, so there. :P

As to WHY he would have thought that she hated him, it was when Tifa fell off the bridge and Cloud felt responsible for not saving her.

(He walks after Tifa's father, leaving Cloud sitting on the ground. The dark Cloud speaks again.)
"Tifa was in a coma for seven days."
"We all thought she wouldn't make it."
"If only I could've saved her..."
"I was so angry... Angry at myself for my weakness."
"Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me..."
"I got out of control... I'd get into fights not even caring who it was."

Which is again, nonsense Cloud created with his head, like during ACC. Ah, Cloud. Once a moron, always a moron. :monster:
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Thanks Tea-chan! I honestly didn't remember that before.

So it is in fact supported that Cloud at one time thought, however foolishly, that Tifa hated him. The fact that she turned up at the well when he invited her and they made the promise there would do a great deal to dissuade him from that line of foolish thinking, yes?

And, your point about him thinking so due to his failure to save her when she went off the cliff brings up something else about the promise. I've seen many a claim that Cloud didn't WANT to make the promise with Tifa and she strong armed him into it. I'd somehow not connected these dots, but with him blaming himself for her accident and coma, and wanting to protect her... yeah I can definitely see why he'd hesitate. She did after all just ask for a promise that he'd do something he already tried and failed to do. Minus the whole "being a famous SOLDIER" part that he never quite got around to :monster:

And before anyone gets on the "and then Tifa shoved it in his face and made him promise even though he thinks he failed her and she's oh so mean" (do note this is exaggeration for humorous purposes), remember that she didn't remember a damn thing after the accident.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.

So then why are you ignoring the U10 story summary and the Important scenes pages? Those are both telling us what is in the story. Unless extra-textual sources absolutely don't count, in which case please stop using them.

I know Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine are canon. But I'm saying, if people don't ship them, let them.

This debate is not, and honestly, from at least my perspective, has never been about shipping. It's been about the narrative and what is true within it, that which is colloquially called canon (And trust me, there's reams I could devote to the subject of canonicity itself)

Cloud and Tifa aren't married and they don't have to be to take care of Marlene and Denzel.

They don't have to be married to be in a relationship either.

She isn't mentioned by name in Advent Children. But she's an important part.

And Aerith is an important part of the four people Cloud can go on a date with. So are Tifa, Yuffie, and Barrett.
Incidentally, in the text on the story summary discussing that Deviation, Aerith gets second billing after Tifa.

If it's irrelevant, it shouldn't have been on that page. It is. So it isn't irrelevant.

It can be irrelevant to the current discussion while still being relevant to the subject of romantic confessions- And that's because Cloud is clueless during the confessions of that evening. Clueless to Aerith's and Clueless to Tifa's.

The description says it's optional, just like how right above the Highwind picture is a page number, and on that page, it explains that it's optional. It isn't right in the description, but it's there. They're both written in that book as optional.

As I keep mentioning, no, it does not. It mentions that there's a deviation possible, but it tells us- arguably three times in this book alone- what the outcome of that deviation is, by listing one of them as one of the most important scenes of the game, once on the very same page by saying that the outcome of the deviation is what occurs, and a third time by saying romantic feelings are confirmed, stressing THAT concept once again.
Twice the High Highwind is stressed. On two occasions romance and earnest feelings are stressed. We're being clobbered with what we're supposed to be taking as important from all this.

I'm not saying everyone who believes Cloud and Tifa are canon are trolls, at all. I know a few really nice people who think they're canon and I don't think they're trolls.

Being mean doesn't automatically make someone a troll nor does being nice automatically make them not one.

Doesn't the page also say that it's about love developing between the hero and heroine? There are two heroines in the game, and one hero, and we already know it's officially a love triangle, so it makes since that all three of them are there. If you think that page closes the LT, then Cloud must love both girls.

Which would actually be all well and good- if Cloud wasn't officially oblivious. That's why the -mutual- the -both held- is so important.

The time when you meet Cait Sith, one person goes with you. That person depends on the date mechanics.

Other way around.

The power of friendship *sings*

And as mentioned, that's still not apathy.

I didn't say it did. But they put special emphasis on Cloud's feelings for Aerith, so she was a very dear friend and different from the rest, not just a source of guilt and sadness in his life.

So's Zack. No flippancy here. Zack is just as much a dear friend as Aerith. But he is not a symbol of guilt for Cloud. That guilt IS what they put the emphasis on. Repeatedly. It's not just that he feels guilt over her, but that is the thing that keeps coming to the fore- guilt. Blaming himself. Feeling responsible.

I bet Nomura was the first person to jump on board for an FFX remake :lol:

What do you mean 'jump on board?'
They did it just so he'd stop muttering zipperbelt under his breath all day.

The translation I've been given is that he says "I don't want to go into my views..."

Which would still be referencing the novella, and the self deprecating laugh would still indicate an admission that he had done so anyways.

I don't have anything concrete that you have to agree with. I don't think my ship is canon anyway.

Can I ask when you switched to this stance? And how it's notably different from 'they definitely did happen?'
Because this is a radical change in the Clerith paradigm since as recently as early this year.

No, no, I know :lol: But I did see, on another thread, a few people saying "Okay, we shoved it to them already, now can we change the name?" That's why we weren't sure if it was honestly serious or not.

None of those perople were me. They are irrelevant to the name or the content of the article.


Then why can it not?

It's his last monologue in the book (if I remember right, it's either during or directly after the Highwind scenes.) :)

It's from just before they face Sephiroth. It still doesn't say when he learned that from Tifa, or if it was all he learned.

I agree. But I don't think he treated her that great for most of the game.

He treats her better than most other people, and even in his addled state, singles her out as the only person whose opinion matters.

I mean that, it's a part of his subconscious that he was forgetting, like his younger self was dredged up to help him remember those things - what really happened, how he'd felt about Tifa, Zack, everything that was missing. By "still holding", I think it means those feelings are literally being withheld by his memories,

First off, the quote says Held. Not withheld. Secondly, for something to be withheld, it must still be present. Either way, this argument winds up with those feelings being present and active in the present.

and at the end of it, he remembers - but I don't know or think it means that he just continues feeling them. I think that's up to interpretation. If he can romantically reject Tifa in the LA version, for example, and only express feelings of desire in the HA version, I think that backs it up. (I'm expecting somebody will come in and say "Oh, you mean THE CANON VERSION!?" :lol: )

They come to realize the feelings regardless. The expression is what can be different in different playthroughs. All the evidence points to one version of the scene being the one that happened in the narrative.

No, I know now. It just seemed to me that from what people were saying, it was written to get people mad.

And none of those people are me. STOP REFERENCING THEM.
I wrote the damn thing to be short, succinct, and a bit tongue in cheek absurd because I know people would get mad regardless.
I used Ted Koppel as my splash image for fuck's sake.

There are three changeable events controlled by the date mechanics. And the first changeable event is supposed to be who goes with you when you meet Cait Sith :)

You are incorrect. That is a direct choice by the player.

Respond to you..? Wait, that was you before?
Woah! Hi! Your name has changed and everything.
Your picture has boobs! :lol:

Yes. It's my girlfriend's doing.

The Exile's gender affects the Disciple joining your party - it can only happen if she's female.[/quote]

I mean officially. Does that happen in the narrative, AFAWK, or is it merely something that CAN happen BECAUSE she's female?

Fairly indifferent, as in, he should have treated her better in certain parts. He's a lot nicer to her after, and that's just my opinion.

Yes, but still nicer to her than he is to other people.

"Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer.
Sounds like a KH statement.

You might say it was made so that you can take it that way.
Sounds like a KH statement.

Cloud is a popular character,
Sounds like a general statement.

and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this.
Sounds like a general statement.

Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."
Sounds like it could be both.

Cloud being a popular character is a general statement, as could be 'I don't want to decide myself (I want the writer to do that for me!)', but the last one is referring to 'You might say it was made.' It's wrapping up the thought.

And I think he'd agree that KH did have some relevance to Cloud and Aerith as characters.
"Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players." -Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine
Even though he considers them separate stories, directly after he says it can also explain some of their relationship from VII itself.

MIGHT explain. That word might is quite important. It means it is possible, but not certain. So maybe something gets answered. Maybe it doesn't. Even if it does get answered, what are we being told? That Aerith is a lot more eager than Cloud, it seems. Plus, their reunion is squished between a father and son and two brothers in the credits.
Then we bring in KH2 and all the assumptions people had about Aerith go OUT the window- because yes, Virginia, Tifa is Cloud's light, just as Sephiroth is his darkness.

But I already said I'd amend it anyway. And I forgot. Kingdom Hearts is a touchy subject :awesome:

That's nice. But you didn't get that from me ;)

Then watch your sarcasm because I may decide to take it as genuine as suits my whim.

Both of our thoughts are possible. Good enough for me. :)

So why were you arguing against the other possibility?

It didn't say that's why, just this happened and then this happened.
Not trying to be mean or rain on the parade or anything, I'll go with it ^_^

Your previous wording did read as though you thought he was only staying because Barret offered him more money. Regardless, if you accept he stayed with Tifa, then we can move on.

I'm not exactly sure where it was, but I remember a quote saying the boys gave her letters inviting her to go to the well?

Only mention of the other boys calling her to the well is early material files, but no, there's no mention of letters in the finished product.

And he thought she hated him.

Yes, but Cloud tends to think folk think the worst of him. Like thinking people blame him for things they do not blame him for.

It's supported that it isn't just guilt by the fact that he's feeling that guilt because he wanted to protect her. I'm saying he cared about her a lot, and it doesn't have to be in a romantic way, I understand, but that's the way some of us interpret it.

And that 'in a romantic way' is what I was saying needs to be supported. No one here will argue that Cloud did not care for Aerith, or that's part of why he feels so guilty about failing to protect her, but most of us realize the same dynamic is in play with Zack and Cloud's guilt over failing to keep that promise.

SE has bad standards for friends... :lol:

Yours might be too high for Children, honestly.

You said Tifa had to know him well before she met him again to know he wasn't being himself, but if Cid and Aerith noticed and hadn't even known him before the Jenova cells got to him, they made it off of observation. I think Tifa did too.

Not had. Did. She did know him well enough and thus she could tell he was off before the more obvious cues came about.
Also, again, Aerith did it through Mysterious Cetra Powers, not a natural observation process.

"first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out."
It could go either way. With the Denzel/Marlene part, I think we talked about this once already, and he's guessing himself.

Again, he never says they won't work out. He says the opposite. That it's entirely possible for them to work it out.
But a relationship with issues is still a relationship. Heck, you could say one without them isn't a real relationship.
Of course, that begs the question, why is it a big deal if they're having issues in a platonic relationship?

He thinks of them as his family, but it doesn't say he thinks of her as a wife or something.

He does think of her as the mother of the family. She thinks of him as the dad. Denzel thinks of both of them as parents, etc.

I don't think she just 'handed' him over, but that she wants her to accompany him.

But not do anything romantic or be bothered with her romantic feelings towards the boy? Now we're just being silly.

I'll try not to. :)

I keep nipping on your heels then.

Square has made it notably different.

"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura, Dengeki Playstation magazine 2007

His undying feeling can't be guilt, because it's been lifted in AC/C.

Oh dear.
For like 3 reasons.
Firstly, that's a quote mine. There's another sentence about its relation to the church scene where Cloud walks down the path between the pews
Secondly, it's from 2k3, not 2k7.
Thirdly, yes, it can be guilt. Undying, as I keep stressing, does not mean immutable. An undying fire can be quenched, an undying man killed, an undying hate satiated. An undying guilt can be lifted, because all undying really means in a figurative sense is 'does not fade with time'- and in a literal sense, typically means does not die from age. Even the undying immortals Highlander die permanently if you chop their head off. As do the undying endless if you have the right sword.

*searches for website and throttles them*

Now put their head on a pike. With photographs.

I meant that, sometimes people act like it's only guilt, and forget that she was a friend, and he wasn't just hurt by her death because he thought he failed, but at least because of that friendship.

I don't think anyone here is saying it's only guilt, period, but the guilt is what is stressed. Guilt over failing to protect a friend, but still guilt.

This is why I hate using quotes.

Just make sure you're quoting and reading whole ideas in the future.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival." -10th AU, Tifa's profile

Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. -10th AU

I interpret those to meaning she is jealous. What do you think they mean?

I think the first one means they both want in Cloud's pants. I think the second one means she gets peevish at seeing them getting close. It could be jealousy. But I'm entering pedantic mode because it seems that's where the conversation is going and I feel like returning like with like.
In any case, even if it is jealousy, it need not be jealousy because Aerith is making romantic inroads. It can easily be jealousy that Aerith can be so forward and easygoing, something that Tifa comments on during her date with Cloud when she hesistates to say what she wants and comments that Aerith would have no trouble.


I mentioned this up above. That he feels that guilt because he cares.

And the burden of proof is still on you to demonstrate that the care is romantic, not platonic.

I'm not asking for your guilt or sympathy. But I'll note what you said, thanks.

I wasn't saying you were. I was just saying that appeals of that sort fall on deaf ears, because I've known people who WERE all those things.
Google 'Star Wars vs Star Trek Darkstar' and you'll see the sort of person that made me realize, yes, people can be that dishonest in the name of their goals, no matter how trivial.

He still says and thinks, regardless, that he's glad to have her at his side and not be alone.

Also says, and thinks, that he's going to have her at his side in a different way than before not more than a few hours later. So if he already had her at his side- and he did- it's different later on.

Whatever you say. :)

Yay, more blanket agreement!

I didn't even see it, and Nomura directed AC/C, and he's as important.

It was part of the response you quoted. And my point is, FF7 isn't "-Nomura". It's "-Kitase, Nojima, Nomura, and many others besides."

I've never seen this before.

It was posted in a reply that you responded to.

I don't think this, because I don't think anything like that has been written in stone, to never be interpreted again. I don't think Cloud's romantic feelings have been made canon. For either Aerith or Tifa. And if I ever have, probably it was when it came out, when I was little.


I don't think the LT has been officially closed, and from what I know of Anastar, I think she shares this belief. Maybe it's an old essay or she just changed her mind. :) You'll have to ask her.

If it is an old essay, and she has changed her mind, she should not still be using it as an argument in its unaltered form.


You joke, but it's still an absolutely infuriating bit of social and literary philosophy.

Tres and me cleared this too, I think.

Only through repeated strikes does the hammer safely drive the nail home.

He would be where Tifa is.

Yes. He would be together with Tifa. Where he belongs.

No. I am calling it's inclusion in the summary a placeholder. Like the Aerith date has been.

The placeholder argument makes no sense, for reasons Tres and GLD have already covered, but which I really have to go over again.
The most important scene in the game is pretty much the exact opposite of a placeholder. Saying 'Yes, this one happened' in a story summary is different than a placeholder, like the one used for the date sequence which gloss over it entirely and say 'Cloud's companion' etc.
Saying one of the four most important scenes in the game is 'just' a placeholder boggles the mind. It really does.
And why is being 'specified' in the UO sufficient, but being story summary in the U10 and 'Most important' in the U20 insufficient?

Barret and Tifa have moved in together, raised Marlene, technically had a future at some point before FFVII. :awesome:

Barret and Tifa and Biggs and Wedge and Jessie all moved in together. For an ecoterrorism cell.
Barret raised marlene. She was his responsibility. And maybe AVALANCHE helped, but nothing says they were under here care like Barret left her in Cloud and Tifa's later on.
Not only that, they were never said to have formed a family or have a future together.

Just trying to ease the tension.

Fair enough. You're still evading she wears the pants in their relationship.

Dude. We base Cloud and Aerith mostly off observation, like we did back in 1997.

And yet it's demanded that it be directly stated that Cloud still likes Tifa. Just like what was done in 1997.
We have observation and creator statements. These observations and statements link together to make a bigger picture with very few assumptions.

The Ultimanias are described as informational books, right? Giving detail to what we already know. What's telling the story are the games and the movie. If Cloud and Tifa are going to be made canon, it should be made within the story itself. Nobody's gotten back to me about this, so uh..

It was made within the story itself. We're giving detail to the narrative, being told which events happened and what they mean.
And then Cloud and Tifa move in and form a family together.

Cloud and Tifa aren't shown to be in a romantic relationship in the story - the games, novellas, and movie.

Yes they are. You're refusing to admit it.
You can accept Lucasfilms's outside of game statements about the contents of KOTOR 1 and 2. You accept what they say occurs in game. You are refusing to apply the same standard to Square-Enix talking about events of FF7 and the meaning of those events.

"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like..."

The high highwind scene is in the game. Them living together is in the film. Tifa being someone's beloved is in the film.

That's what we're going to do. We're going by not just Nomura, but Square's telling of the entire story. You definitely have a case, but as the Compilation stands currently, their just isn't enough to say it's canon right now.

There is. There's been for some time. In fact, both sides have even argued that until recently. It's why I find the current shift of position telling and fascinating.

Yes. Because there are answers in the plural. Like I said... if you see it a different way, you'll find that possible answer. Until they say otherwise.

Maybe Cloud loves both girls.

Which isn't a contradictory answer. But no, two contradictory answers

Text says flip some pages and they're both written as optional.

No. Text says 'this happens' flip a few pages, it says 'Do Thing and this happens' That same page also says 'this happens' that's not writing it as optional. It's writing it to tell you there's a choice to be made, but that one version actually occurs.

I mesh it easily.

Then mesh it. Please, lay out how an apathetic, short conversation between people leads them towards the positivism of the next day. Do it. Don't just say you can. DO IT.


He had to have felt lonely at some point if he's thinking "Now I'm not. Tifa taught me this."

I repeat "Where are you getting suddenly?"

Because he isn't ignoring her?

Because the promise stops him. Because the promise is fucking important to Cloud. Because Tifa is important to Cloud, even when he's a mixed up jumble of memories and personalities.
Because it's her promise that convinces him to stay.

"The biggest mystery of FF7&#8212;the affectional rating

It is the inside parameter prepared for 4 characters&#8217; affectional rating for Cloud; they&#8217;re Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie and Barret (information from creating staffs). According to different conditions, some specific events will proceed variously. The choices that occasionally appear in the scene with conversations will affect the rating largely. If your choice makes the character reveal positive reaction, the rating would be raised. In addition, it seems the time he/she joined your party, the interaction during the combat mode (using &#8220;heal&#8221; and &#8220;cover&#8221; when the other one was in a pinch) will uplift the rating too. But to compare with choices that provided, the influence is minor."
-Dismantled, page 189
:)

On this case, I can declare the Katai Shinsho wrong, if it's being accurately quoted. In battle actions do not affect the AV itself at all. That's been thoroughly tested and found not to be the case. They do, however, seem to affect the 'Tifa Specific Value.' While insufficient code rooting or brute testing has been performed to this end, there are odd outliers of folks getting the HA scene even when the AV alone should have made it impossible (Barret Date, for example.), which led to the speculation of this second, Tifa specific variable affecting things. If the book means that, then, well, whoo.
Incidentally, 'Affectional rating FOR Cloud'
Not Cloud's affection for them. Cloud is static here. You don't change his affection, just the affection of others.
 
Last edited:

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Where does it actually say it, Cloud definitely has romantic feelings for Tifa in a non-optional setting? If it's canon, it's there, in the story.

"They realize their feelings for one another at the end of the story, and live together in AC and DoC"
Fort he millionth time this can't mean anything else, lol. If it can prove it.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
You HAVE said rejection in the past, I just used it as an example. I do not mean to step on your toes or insult you by doing so. And again, "mutual feelings of indifference" =/= making any sort of sense. We know Tifa is interested, and no amount of ridiculous twisting by use of the AV will change that. Ergo, lack of interest would just be ridiculous even IF you could reasonably say Cloud wasn't interested. Which is also just silly.

One other point that needs making about this ridiculous "mutual disinterest" and "you can lower Tifa's affection, and then Cloud's is low to match it" thing -- Anastar insists that she won't accept an optional deviation or anything from an Ultimania story summary as canon unless it's referenced later in a game, movie or novella. Yet Tifa romantically loves Cloud after FFVII, and on into the time of AC/C.

We know that not just because we've been told so by an Ultimania (though we have been), but also because we see it in Case of Tifa (a novella) and AC/C (a movie).

Where does that, then, leave Anastar's argument? That Tifa having high affection for Cloud isn't confirmed by later materials? That it means Tifa went from having an interest, to then having no interest just for the Highwind scene, to then having a sudden interest all over again just in time for Case of Tifa?

Please, Annie, do explain.


By the way, aerbear, here's that full quote I promised you (October 24, 2003 issue of Famitsu PS2):

I think that for all those players who once traveled with her as comrades, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now.... Its relation to the church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"

And in Japanese:

&#12456;&#12450;&#12522;&#12473;&#12399;&#12363;&#12388;&#12390;&#12392;&#12418;&#12395;&#26053;&#12434;&#12375;&#12383;&#20210;&#38291;&#12391;&#12289;&#21463;&#12369;&#25163;&#20596;&#12398;&#30342;&#12373;&#12435;&#12395;&#12418;&#12289;&#12381;&#12428;&#12382;&#12428;&#12398;&#24859;&#24773;&#12420;&#24819;&#12356;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12392;&#24605;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;&#12371;&#12398;&#29289;&#35486;&#12398;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12418;&#12289;&#12456;&#12450;&#12522;&#12473;&#12395;&#23550;&#12375;&#12390;&#12289;&#12356;&#12414;&#12418;&#12394;&#12362;&#27515;&#12394;&#12396;&#24819;&#12356;&#12399;&#12354;&#12427;&#12392;&#12539;&#12539;&#12539;&#12539;&#12290;&#12371;&#12398;&#25945;&#20250;&#12398;&#22580;&#38754;&#12392;&#12398;&#38306;&#20418;&#12399;&#12539;&#12539;&#12539;&#12539;&#12539;&#12358;&#12540;&#12435;&#12290;&#12371;&#12398;&#12354;&#12383;&#12426;&#12399;&#30342;&#12373;&#12435;&#12398;&#12372;&#24819;&#20687;&#12395;&#12362;&#12414;&#12363;&#12379;&#12375;&#12414;&#12377;&#65288;&#31505;&#65289;&#12290;

Sources: http://ff7ac.hotcafe.to/magazine/magazine03.html

http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/product/magazine/fami_psp+ps3/03003520.html
 

Anastar

undercover Clerith evangelist
Gym Leader Devil

GLD said:
Instead, SE put a second picture of FFVII on the FTOIL page with a picture of Cloud with a different girl than Tifa. Why do that if all they want to say is that Cloud loves Tifa? There is absolutely no reason for the Date scene picture on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with who Cloud loves. Otherwise, why put the picture at all on a page about protagonists in love?
Didn't you already ask this above? Maybe with fewer/more words? I've already let those memories largely leak out of recollection, but I am pretty sure you did. Are you trying to filibuster people out of responding?
Yes, I asked it above, but I'm still waiting for an actual response. There is no reason to put Cloud and Aerith's picture on a page about "Love Between Heroes' unless Cloud and Aerith are two heroes between whom love can exist.

And yes - I said "CAN" exist, since I think it's optional between Cloud and Aerith just like it's optional between Cloud and Tifa.

GLD said:
And why mention the deviation at all if it's not relevant to who Cloud loves?
Because it exists, and it is related to the issue being discussed. Ergo it gets a mention.
If you insist that Cloti is canon and that the HA HW scene is canon, then there's no need to mention it at all. The Date Mech no longer has any relevance if SE is declaring one of the couples canon. Yet, SE not only brings it up, but they show Cloud with Aerith.

That's the point - not only does SE mention the deviations and both couples, but they also specify that the scenes are optional. SE didn't do that for any other couple on the page. Why do it for FFVII? Because it's optional.

GLD said:
SE mentions the deviation because it IS relevant. It means that Cloti is optional.
No it doesn't.
You can't decide that. Only SE can. So stop trying to act like you can make decisions for SE. This is nothing but your opinion, just like the "Love Triangle is Over" article is nothing but Ryu's opinion.

GLD said:
Again, and this has been said so many times I swear I hear it in my sleep, the LA scene makes absolutely no sense in terms of what has been stated to have happened within the narrative.
In your opinion only. What you just said has not been stated anywhere by SE.

GLD said:
The fact that mutual feelings are shared is just that, a fact.
And how do you know mutual feelings aren't shared in the LA version?

GLD said:
We know for a fact that said feelings are romantic.
In the High Affection version only.

GLD said:
Many different means of knowing this for fact have been detailed for you.
And many of those sources specify that romantic feelings are exchanged in the High Affection version only, which means it is optional.

GLD said:
The mention of a deviation does not invalidate a damned thing, and most certainly does not prevent the establishment of a canonical outcome.
Only in your opinion.

GLD said:
And who are you to decide how I should think? I'll judge by my own standards, thank you.
Not answering for Tres here, merely stating that no one can reasonably tell you how to think, but since your manner of thinking is leading you to the wrong conclusion a suggestion that you try a different tactic isn't out of the question.
You say my manner of thinking is leading me to the wrong conclusion when you have no right to judge whether my conclusion is correct or not. SE is the only one who knows the true answer.

GLD said:
As for your own standards, they seem to be "ignore any evidence that supports Cloti, make up and twist things in order see Clerith." Things like chairs and mirrors, for instance, but we'll get to that.
And your standards seem to be to "ignore any evidence that supports Clerith and twist things in order to see Cloti."

From now on, I'm only going to answer things that contain an actual debate point. Insults aren't worth spending my time on.

GLD said:
There is no absolute confirmation for either side, and I believe that SE has said so.
Except they have essentially said the exact opposite of that and you just don't want to hear it.
If Cloud and Tifa are the official couple, why is it that they're never shown to be a couple on any relationship chart? Not even the 20th AU shows them as a couple - they're only labeled as "childhood friends". If the FTOIL page has made Cloti canon, then why doesn't the same book show them as being in a relationship other than "childhood friends"?

GLD said:
We see things differently.
There is evidence that it is his room. It has not been proven that's where he sleeps, but it hasn't been proven that it's not where he sleeps, either.
What is this evidence of it being his bedroom again?
For one, Tifa tells Cloud to
"drink in your room"
in every English translation of CoT, so there must be a reason for it to be translated that way, 2) There is no evidence of a master bedroom where they both sleep, 3) There's furniture and stuff in the room that makes it look like a man's room, 4) There's pictures all over the wall, like Cloud spends a lot of time there and like it's his "personal space", 5) There's no evidence of a master bedroom where both of them sleep.

GLD said:
There is a chair, mirror, and an open trunk.
I see no such thing in either the lightened or normal example pictures you've posted. The "chair" is a bloody window sill. The "mirror" is a window on the door, what you claim to be a reflection is the wall on the other side of the door. If you look, it lines up EXACTLY. It would have an actual reflection if it were a mirror. The open trunk is a tool box, I believe.
No, the chair is a chair that looks somewhat like this:
chair.gif
The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing. And the tool box could indeed be a tool box - except that you can't see inside of it, so how do you know what's inside?

GLD said:
Then the same should apply to "koibito" in Case of Lifestream White. If Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and he is also hers, then that would point to a relationship. Or at least mutual feelings.
Ok, kidding aside I am guessing you MEANT to say something more like "If Cloud is Aerith's koibito and she is also his" there. And that's the rub, because Aerith has never been described as CLOUD'S koibito. Ever. Period. End of. So no, this is not evidence of Cloud loving/desiring Aerith. It is evidence ONLY of Aerith loving/desiring Cloud.
Tifa was never said to be Cloud's koibito either. Cloud only called Tifa his "nakama", but not his "koibito."

And yes, Aerith was described as Cloud's koibito here:

ClerithEssay1.jpg


GLD said:
Thing is, Cloud is not said to be Tifa's koibito in RF.
No, but we've already been told Tifa loves Cloud.
That doesn't mean that Cloud loves Tifa. The picture above, however, has the word Love over both Cloud and Aerith, so it applies to both of them.

GLD said:
Do we need to hear it again to know that?
No, do we need to hear that Aerith loves Cloud again to know that?

GLD said:
The focus of the LTD is Cloud's feelings, and we're told Tifa IS someone's koibito.
But not Cloud's.

GLD said:
Sure, Cloud's name wasn't directly used, but unless you're gonna try to claim Johnny or imply Barret again, who else would it be? Put that together with the FTOIL page, the answer is there.
Back at ya. Since Cloud and Aerith are shown together under the title "Love Between Heroes" on the FTOIL page, and since CoLWhite says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and Cloud's name is actually used, then we know that Cloud and Aerith have a mutual love.

Well, this quote from Vilaeth says otherwise:

Then, of course, koi--bito (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.
Source:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87
Quex already handled this dishonest piece of quote mining
Which was neither dishonest nor quote mining, since the part I excluded did not contradict the part I did quote.

GLD said:
When I said "outside of the Compilation" I was talking about FFVI.
So the FFX and X-2 examples that were also made to try and drive the point home are still fine then? Awesome. Tell me how HA-HW is different from Tidus' canonical return to being a real boy, despite both having a deviation in which the events are different?
Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Long ass delusional spiel

Seriously... is anyone buying this shit? I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational or break thread rules, but she's bold-face LYING and EVADING, quote mining and being blatantly, willfully ignorant while backhandedly insulting TLS members not in this thread to comment.

But really, I mean if we can't presume to know who Tifa is a koibito of, then we can't presume to know who 'Woman' is in CoLW.

Are standards just not something understood here? Or am I missing some giant trollololol?


also:
Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.

Pay attention, I know you read the thread despite your claims not to. NO ONE--and I mean absolutely fucking NO ONE--is trying to argue that Yuna and Tidus' love is optional or not. NO ONE. What IS optional is whether Tidus COMES BACK at the end of X-2. What is CANON is that he DOES.

Now, I'll resume my seat on the sidelines and watch the show.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
Ignoring all the other crazy cause I don't even have the patience for it...

No, the chair is a chair that looks somewhat like this:
chair.gif

sweetie, there's no chair there. Also, this chair (you drew?) is not an overstuffed chair, more looks like a cement block. Kind of like you'd see on a recessed window. Maybe you should outline on the picture where you see the chair. (Quex maybe suggest that to her?)

The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing.

>__>

<__<

Do... Do you not see the door?

And yes, Aerith was described as Cloud's koibito here:

ClerithEssay1.jpg


That doesn't mean that Cloud loves Tifa. The picture above, however, has the word Love over both Cloud and Aerith, so it applies to both of them.

Even if this commercial was relevant, how can you possibly conclude that the term "love" makes Aerith Cloud's koibito, but Tifa being someone's koibito doesn't refer back to Cloud?

Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.

FHS already addressed this, but yeah... you're attacking a strawman. No one's arguing about Yuna & Tidus's love. The ending is about whether or not Tidus comes back or not.

FHS said:
Seriously... is anyone buying this shit? I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational or break thread rules, but she's bold-face LYING and EVADING, quote mining and being blatantly, willfully ignorant while backhandedly insulting TLS members not in this thread to comment.

Sorry but I'm going to have to STRONGLY agree with this statement. This woman is spewing so much crap and not even comprehending what other people are telling her. She's calling facts "opinions" and then making things up and labeling them as fact. This whole thing is just retarded.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Gym Leader Devil

Yes, I asked it above, but I'm still waiting for an actual response. There is no reason to put Cloud and Aerith's picture on a page about "Love Between Heroes' unless Cloud and Aerith are two heroes between whom love can exist.

Because one can express their love for the other.
Meanwhile, Cloud and Tifa do.

And yes - I said "CAN" exist, since I think it's optional between Cloud and Aerith just like it's optional between Cloud and Tifa.

Again, Anastar, I ask what brings on the sudden change of heart?

If you insist that Cloti is canon and that the HA HW scene is canon, then there's no need to mention it at all. The Date Mech no longer has any relevance if SE is declaring one of the couples canon. Yet, SE not only brings it up, but they show Cloud with Aerith.

It DOES have relevance. Because it leads to not one but FOUR potential scenes discussing romance.

That's the point - not only does SE mention the deviations and both couples, but they also specify that the scenes are optional. SE didn't do that for any other couple on the page. Why do it for FFVII? Because it's optional.

You speak of 'mentioning the deviation' and 'specifying that it's optional' like they are different things. Please, DO enlighten us where it is specified the highwind scene is purely optional, that there's no official outcome.

You can't decide that. Only SE can. So stop trying to act like you can make decisions for SE. This is nothing but your opinion, just like the "Love Triangle is Over" article is nothing but Ryu's opinion.

Not true in the slightest. While I'd be remiss to deny that I editorialized, I reported the facts of the page, Anastar. Simply calling it my opinion is convincing no one.

In your opinion only. What you just said has not been stated anywhere by SE.

Said without any apparent realization to the irony. You say things SE has never said at ANY TIME quite often.

And how do you know mutual feelings aren't shared in the LA version?

Because an apathetic conversation is quite by definition one that does not have feelings. Even your 'disinterested conversation' would prevent feelings from being shared. Remember, the adjective modifies the conversation.

In the High Affection version only.

And those are the feelings we are told happened.
The high affection version is the one included in the game's timeline. The version called 'most important' by SE themselves.

And many of those sources specify that romantic feelings are exchanged in the High Affection version only, which means it is optional.

You have your logic very much backwards.
We have sources that say those feelings are exchanged, period. We have other sources that say it happens only in one version. That means the version in which those didn't happen is prevented from being the version that happened.

Only in your opinion.

There you go again- you have no argument, so you just call it opinion. Meanwhile, you're arguing a completely different stance than your friend Aerbear, who argues that Deviations like a character's very gender CAN have canon outcomes.

You say my manner of thinking is leading me to the wrong conclusion when you have no right to judge whether my conclusion is correct or not. SE is the only one who knows the true answer.

Ah, strict agnosticism. Such a silly thing. Also, the very field of narrative analysis disagrees.

And your standards seem to be to "ignore any evidence that supports Clerith and twist things in order to see Cloti."

Well, let's check the record- which person was caught using lies and quote mines?
Not GLD.

From now on, I'm only going to answer things that contain an actual debate point. Insults aren't worth spending my time on.

Yeah, no. That's code for 'I will begin ignoring points I don't like because they offend me'
It fools no one.

If Cloud and Tifa are the official couple, why is it that they're never shown to be a couple on any relationship chart? Not even the 20th AU shows them as a couple - they're only labeled as "childhood friends". If the FTOIL page has made Cloti canon, then why doesn't the same book show them as being in a relationship other than "childhood friends"?

Because those 'relationship' charts in the U20 concern themselves with the start of the game.
Wakka and Lulu are just childhood friends, too.
Cid still works for ShinRa.

For one, Tifa tells Cloud to in every English translation of CoT, so there must be a reason for it to be translated that way,

The English language requires more explicit language than Japanese does, even though this is not always warranted.

2) There is no evidence of a master bedroom where they both sleep,

There's no evidence of ANY other bedroom.

3) There's furniture and stuff in the room that makes it look like a man's room,

As a man with his own bedroom AND his own office, I can tell which kind of room that more resembles.

4) There's pictures all over the wall, like Cloud spends a lot of time there and like it's his "personal space",

Again, office.

5) There's no evidence of a master bedroom where both of them sleep.

There's, again, no evidence of ANY other room. Even a bathroom.

No, the chair is a chair that looks somewhat like this:
chair.gif

So, everyone, it's official, she is mistaking the WINDOWSILL for a chair.

The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing.

Buh, WHA? You don't think there's a door in the shot?
Your vision must be worse than you led us to believe. No, really. Not only is that a door on the right of the room, but I'm pretty sure you called it a door in a previous exchange with either Tres or Quex.

And the tool box could indeed be a tool box - except that you can't see inside of it, so how do you know what's inside?

You do kinda realize you're entire argument relies on 'could indeed', I hope.

Tifa was never said to be Cloud's koibito either. Cloud only called Tifa his "nakama", but not his "koibito."

And Woman was never said to be Aerith. Come on, you're not even TRYING.

And yes, Aerith was described as Cloud's koibito here:

ClerithEssay1.jpg


That doesn't mean that Cloud loves Tifa. The picture above, however, has the word Love over both Cloud and Aerith, so it applies to both of them.

Um. NO.
1. It says nothing about whose love.
2. It's from a COMMERCIAL that says there is also a 'hate that always was.' Whose hate always, was, Anastar? We keep asking you this, and you keep skirting the question
3. IT'S FROM A COMMERCIAL. And not even the original Japanese one. This was something an American Marketing team made up. So no, IT DOESN'T describe Aerith as his Koibito. At all.

No, do we need to hear that Aerith loves Cloud again to know that?

What Aerith, Citizen? There's only Woman who says Cloud is her Beloved.

But not Cloud's.

She is said to have formed a family with him, be the mother of that family, be important to Cloud, have a future with Cloud, she views Cloud as the father of that family, worries about his love for her, etc.
Who else would it logically and parsimoniously be?

Back at ya. Since Cloud and Aerith are shown together under the title "Love Between Heroes" on the FTOIL page, and since CoLWhite says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and Cloud's name is actually used, then we know that Cloud and Aerith have a mutual love.

The logic doesn't follow for several reasons, but we'll start with the fact that Cloud was oblivious to Aerith's intentions. We'll continue with that COLW never says anything about an Aerith. Go read it. It's all about the woman. And if being unnamed prevents us from every figuring out who Tifa's a koibito to, then there's NO WAY we can figure out who Man and Woman are.

Which was neither dishonest nor quote mining, since the part I excluded did not contradict the part I did quote.

It was both dishonest AND a quote mine because you misrepresented the quote and altered the meaning as a result. Your 'does not contradict' standard is not required.

Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.

Which is ENTIRELY unrelated to the subject of Tidus LIVING or DYING.
You can't be misunderstanding this by accident. GLD even EXPLICITLY MENTIONED Tidus's 'becoming a real boy' and didn't mention the romance at all.

Seriously... is anyone buying this shit? I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational or break thread rules, but she's bold-face LYING and EVADING, quote mining and being blatantly, willfully ignorant while backhandedly insulting TLS members not in this thread to comment.

Oh, hell no. Anastar's far from innocent. She's been caught too often to claim she doesn't know what she's doing.

But really, I mean if we can't presume to know who Tifa is a koibito of, then we can't presume to know who 'Woman' is in CoLW.

Or man, for good measure.
There may be someone else entirely who focuses on Cloud WAAAYYY too much. I'll say Dyne. Because we can't say who it is so it could be ANYONE.

Are standards just not something understood here? Or am I missing some giant trollololol?

The phrase 'enough rope to hang themselves by' is appropriate here.

also:

Pay attention, I know you read the thread despite your claims not to. NO ONE--and I mean absolutely fucking NO ONE--is trying to argue that Yuna and Tidus' love is optional or not. NO ONE. What IS optional is whether Tidus COMES BACK at the end of X-2. What is CANON is that he DOES.

Now, I'll resume my seat on the sidelines and watch the show.

But FHS, It's never definitely referenced in any later title! We can't be sure that's what happened even though we're told that's what happened!
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing.

Okay.. really?... come on now Annie... I mean Aly.. I mean Ana... whatever I'm supposed to call you. Look closely now:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1853/cloudsroom.png

Do you really not see a door? I know your eyes are bad and I'm sorry about that but, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, if you honestly don't see a door I don't think you're in any position to tell us what is and isn't in Cloud's office.

EDIT:
And if Cloud honestly keeps his clothes in that tiny box, and sits on a windowsill (which sounds like something I'd try to do in the sims, in fact I think I WILL try to do this :awesome:) and has to keep his belongings in boxes scattered all over the place... then I feel pretty bad for him. His desk doesn't even have a chair... I mean I know I'm all for Cloud abuse and stuff, but I find it very hard to believe that that's what was intended for us to believe. It's just kind of silly. Can we meet you half way? Cloud may or may not have an actual room room, but we don't know for sure?

EDIT:
Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.

Are you trying to say that only scenes with romance can't have canon versions? ... I really really don't get what you're trying to say.

and repost

In the same commercial, SE also talks about Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth, which is saying that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are the exact opposite of his feelings for Sephiroth: who Cloud loves vs. who Cloud hates. In the same commercial, Tifa is only seen with the other members of Avalanche under the title of "Friendship".

It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead. Furthermore, the idea that love can continue beyond death is also proven by Yuna's continuing love for Tidus in FFX-2.

Okay first thing I'll say is I don't disagree with you about the love or hate beyond death. So let's just get that out of the way. No argument here.

However, I would like you to respond to three things for me.

1. The quote says "A hate that always was." and shows Sephiroth. You don't see Cloud at all, so I don't think you can really say for sure that it's Cloud's hate for Sephiroth. It COULD be Sephiroth's hate for Cloud, or Sephiorth's hate for mankind or anything like that. So, do you know for sure it's talking about Cloud's hate for Sephiroth or is it possibly Sephiroth doing the hating?

2. The commercial says "A hate that always was." The problem here is... Cloud didn't always hate Sephiroth. And those other things I pointed out, Sephiroth didn't always hate mankind or always hate Cloud either. Thus, this statement isn't accurate. If this statement isn't accurate, how do we know the first statement is accurate?

3. As others have pointed out, commercials don't always portray the truth. SE commercials in particular seem to stretch the truth quite a bit. I'm aware that you can't watch videos, but to back up my claim I need to point these out. All of these are SE commercials for FF games. I'm also aware that some times it's argued that the FF commercials always show the canon couples so I'll talk about that a bit too:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RBiZHV5X5M
This commercial shows 4 people who are... cosplaying or something. Does this have any truth to the FF world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4149plFj4
Shows artwork of a man who never appeared in the game along with some clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNgG4RIqaiU
This is the FFIV commercial. It's an ostrich running around.. nothing to do with the game even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uB8gbWAuV4
more ostrich nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5YIUbwB8Q
"Final Fantasy, it ain't over til it's over!"... uh... okay what does that even mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mEhrj308k
FFV. Shows creatures coming out of a hole to attack a chocobo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72DmCaczYMc
Terra attacking Tokyo, which didn't happen in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBG4TUPxQ0U
Shows Mog having creatures audition for being in the game. But was Mog really responsible for the creatures being in the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR5fRq2vqyY
There's a canon couple in this game right? I don't see it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGGihZAml4
No Ingus Sarah here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5anPD3yvqMg
Kind of suggests a triangle that's not there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsT1DTtZcNU
Are Rosa and Rydia the couple? That's the only 'pair' I see in this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps6cES5hRKo
No couples shown here. Unless Garn/Eik..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDY7F6EUhVI
Shows people talking on each other on the phone and none of them are in the game as far as I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlLh0yeu1ls
Says the FFIV LT is Kain -> Cecil <- Rosa, not Cecil -> Rosa <- Kain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuUPzmkCBms
This is the Final Fantasy 8 ad which states it's "A quest to win the heart of the woman he loves."

All of these commercials, particularly the last two, portray inaccurate information. So if all these commercials, all commercials of Final Fantasy games, contain inaccurate information about the plot, characters and various other points, why should I believe that the FFVII one is showing the truth? Why is that one commercial the exception?

Also for reference, the FFVII Japanese ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ8FA0u3-RI

Nothing about a love, hate, or anything else like that. Why would Square not say Cloud loves Aerith in the Japanese commercial, and only let overseas people know about that information? It would seem to me that the Japanese people would be the first people they'd want to know.

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love.
Is there any reason then for Square to say that FF8 is about a man trying to win a woman's heart, or that the FFIV LT is Kain -> Cecil <- Rosa, or that Mog is responsible for the monsters in FFIII?
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
For the record I don't believe where Cloud sleeps or not has any bearing on whether he's romantically with Tifa. Personally speaking I wouldn't be getting up to much lovin' with two kids in the house that aren't even mine....would be kind of awkward. But that is just speculation on my part :monster:

This is gilding the lily, but I spent all of 5 mins in Photoshop doing this so:
office2edit.jpg

office3.jpg

So I can see where you might think there is a chair, but really the back of the chair is the window ledge and wall, and the bottom is one of the tyres. and really. Look at how high it is in comparison to Tifa, what kind of chair is that? Has someone been sawing the legs off to accomodate dwarves? :huh:

Furthermore that is a window in the door. Which begs the question. Why the hell would you put a window in your bedroom door? Unless you were an exhibitionist? Windows in office doors are fairly commonplace though.

Just saying.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Shitoutlined.png


Here, I even labeled and outlined things for you. There's a door, with a window. No mirror. A windowsill and window recess, not a chair.
But seriously, feel free to continue being silly.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
I don't know about the rest of you, but I tack up my billing invoices and post cards on my bedroom wall. Hurr Durr...

Also, why does any Clerith use 'Love that could never be' to float your ship? I mean, I know most shit being spewed makes no sense anyway, but that is literally retarded to use as evidence FOR something when the quote itself says it DOESN'T HAPPEN.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
I want to retract my statement about the window. Turns out its the same in Marlene and Denzels room too. Which is frankly, bizarre. Who knows? Maybe they got a job lot of windowed doors on the cheap :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Anastar, why is it that whenever one line of argument from you is shown to be invalid you retreat into another previously invalidated line? So, now we're back to the relationship charts from the U20 Character guide again.

I know from years of observation where this is going to go. You're going to scream from the rooftops that the "childhood friends" description on FFVII's chart tells us all there is to know about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. You're going to insist that data circa early game must apply to late- and post-game. You'll also pretend that because they both have "Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania" in their titles, the Character and Scenario guides came out at the same time (they didn't; the first came out in January 2008, the second in April of that year).

Meanwhile, you're going to refuse to justify why Cloud and Tifa are the sole exception to a standard that doesn't have to be upheld by other couples, both within and outside FFVII (even amongst other main protagonists). You won't explain why Cid and Shiera can get by with a description that he treats her poorly, yet can still be a couple. You won't explain why Dagger and Zidane can get by with a description that they're important people to one another, yet can still be a couple. And you definitely won't explain why Lulu and Wakka can get by with the same "childhood friends" description that Cloud and Tifa got.

No, you'll focus on a single word from a commercial from 1997 that was designed to sell you something. You won't even explain what the "hate that always was" is supposed to be, or to whom it belongs (Cloud didn't always hate Seph, and Seph didn't always hate the world, so we're clearly dealing with hyperbole). You won't explain how FFVIII was about Squall trying to win Rinoa's heart, when the opposite is the case. And you certainly won't acknowledge that the notion of "a love that can never be" is antithetical to the very claim you wish to substantiate -- that Cloud and Aerith not only could (i.e. did) have a romantic relationship while she was alive, but that this relationship can (i.e. does) continue after her death. Your focus on screenshots of Cloud and Aerith while ignoring the surrounding words began long before the "For the One I Love" page came along.

You'll just quote mine hito to hell and gone. insist -- despite more than one later explanation from him of what he meant -- that he said something other than what he actually said. Even though that would make it factually inaccurate. That it's something different than what all of us are saying. And, of course, refuse to identify what the consequences of that would be for the "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files.

You'll insist that the counterintuitive meaning you derived from a hyperbolic, misleading advertisement produced 14 years ago by the marketing department of another company's foreign subsidiary is a more insightful indication of the intentions of FFVII's developers than a score of statements to have come since from SE and the game's developers.

And you'll do all of this without even recognizing that the position you're putting forward is inconsistent with the position of neutrality and open-ended optionality that you claim to hold.

Your move, doll. Please show me I'm wrong.
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Gym Leader Devil

Bring it.

Yes, I asked it above, but I'm still waiting for an actual response. There is no reason to put Cloud and Aerith's picture on a page about "Love Between Heroes' unless Cloud and Aerith are two heroes between whom love can exist.

An actual response has been given by Tres, and I have actually kicked myself for not seeing it already. I think he sent a response off to you, so you should see it, but it bears repeating just in case.

Essentially, the dates all contain an attempt to confess feelings to Cloud. Said feelings are romantic in nature, even in the Barret date in a strange and creepy way. That is how they get their blurb on the FTOIL page. Those dates are relevant to the topic of love between heroes.

It is still irrelevant to this debate, however, since Cloud remains oblivious to the confessions. It isn't until the Lifestream Sequence that he becomes aware at all, and then the HW scene comes along and gives us a successful declaration of feelings (if a "declaration" can occur without words :monster:) that turn out to be mutual. That's how it got ITS place on the page. The much larger and more fleshed out place, as compared to the tiny blurb about the optional date sequences.

And yes - I said "CAN" exist, since I think it's optional between Cloud and Aerith just like it's optional between Cloud and Tifa.

Y'know, I wasn't gonna touch on this much, but Ryu's asking aerbear has me curious. When and why did you change your position from "Clerith is canon" to "there is no canon" exactly?

If you insist that Cloti is canon and that the HA HW scene is canon, then there's no need to mention it at all. The Date Mech no longer has any relevance if SE is declaring one of the couples canon. Yet, SE not only brings it up, but they show Cloud with Aerith.

Answered above with regards to why they brought it up at all. As for why they used a picture of Aerith, she WAS the other point on the triangle.

That's the point - not only does SE mention the deviations and both couples, but they also specify that the scenes are optional. SE didn't do that for any other couple on the page. Why do it for FFVII? Because it's optional.

And again, no such specification of "oh btw this is totes optional" is present for the HW scene. The fact that THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE STORY is spelled right out for us. The date scene is spelled out as having optional outcome, the HA HW scene is not.

You can't decide that.

*Mathew McConaughey from Dazed & Confused voice* It'd be a whole lot cooler if I could. :monster:

Only SE can. So stop trying to act like you can make decisions for SE. This is nothing but your opinion, just like the "Love Triangle is Over" article is nothing but Ryu's opinion.

And this is the sticking point for you it seems. Because SE DID decide this. You do not like their decision, you do not accept the evidence that it IS their decision, and you continue to decry the words on the page as somehow being nothing but opinions. The words ON THE PAGE are the words of SE. Not me, not Ryu or Tres or anyone else's. SE chose the content.

Now, turn that around. Your claim that the HW scene is optional? Yeah, you're not the one who decides that. SE is. And they chose to summarize the story with the HA version.

In your opinion only. What you just said has not been stated anywhere by SE.

SE has to spell out "this deviation, had it existed, would make absolutely no sense given the events that follow it" for you to see it?

And how do you know mutual feelings aren't shared in the LA version?

This has been said so many times, I hear it in my sleep. Again. But, one more time couldn't make it much worse. ...right? :monster:

Ok, so we know for a fact Tifa loves Cloud. That is a given, and no silly talk about affection values needs to be brought into it. From childhood through ACC, there should be no doubt about that. We are told Cloud's feelings match, we are told they have a future together, we are told they raise a family together and belong together, and we know Cloud thinks they can succeed at all this because he has Tifa in a way that is different from before. All things which flow nicely from the HA version of the HW scene.

Now, switch it to LA. Tifa still loves Cloud, but no confirmation of feelings takes place. It is now a short and apathetic conversation. So how does Cloud have her in a way that is different from before if nothing has really changed? None of what we know to have followed after the HW scene makes SENSE while seen from the LA side.

In the High Affection version only.

Yes, in the HA version only. Which is why what follows in the story makes no sense if you use the LA version instead. And it doesn't MATTER if its only in the HA, because HA is what happened.

And many of those sources specify that romantic feelings are exchanged in the High Affection version only, which means it is optional.

No. Just, no. Yes, it is specified that the romantic feelings are confirmed only in the HA version. That doesn't mean "either version could have happened" and you bloody well know it. You have in the past agreed that a scene with a deviation can still have a canon outcome. This is not possible if you use the simple fact that things happen DIFFERENTLY in the DIFFERENT versions where events DEVIATE as evidence that there is no canon.

Only in your opinion.

Oh, so now you ARE claiming that a deviation precludes a canon outcome then? Bravo on that flip-flop dear lady, bravo.

You say my manner of thinking is leading me to the wrong conclusion when you have no right to judge whether my conclusion is correct or not. SE is the only one who knows the true answer.

Why are you even here, in a DEBATE, if you do not want your conclusions challenged? And, as a consequence of challenging said conclusions, the thought process that led you to them? That's a big part of how debates WORK.

And your last sentence is incorrect. The folks at SE are the ones who made the true answer. Then they shared it with us. Ergo, they are not the only ones who know said answer.

And your standards seem to be to "ignore any evidence that supports Clerith

Provide something concrete that supports Clerith and I won't ignore it.

and twist things in order to see Cloti."

And luckily, I've had to do no such thing. Cloti has plenty of straight and to the point supporting evidence. No twisting required.

From now on, I'm only going to answer things that contain an actual debate point. Insults aren't worth spending my time on.

So long as you stop insulting us with quote mines and other forms of dishonesty, I am entirely ok with that.

If Cloud and Tifa are the official couple, why is it that they're never shown to be a couple on any relationship chart? Not even the 20th AU shows them as a couple - they're only labeled as "childhood friends". If the FTOIL page has made Cloti canon, then why doesn't the same book show them as being in a relationship other than "childhood friends"?

This I cannot really answer, myself. With regards to the relationship charts, that is. Cloti is most definitely the canon ship here. I'll leave it up to someone else to describe the relationship chart situation, or get back to you if the ability to do so comes upon me.

For one, Tifa tells Cloud to in every English translation of CoT, so there must be a reason for it to be translated that way, 2) There is no evidence of a master bedroom where they both sleep, 3) There's furniture and stuff in the room that makes it look like a man's room, 4) There's pictures all over the wall, like Cloud spends a lot of time there and like it's his "personal space", 5) There's no evidence of a master bedroom where both of them sleep.

For one, if it is Cloud's office then he literally has ownership of that room. Ergo, "your room" can mean exactly what it says without implying it is a bedroom. 2) There is no evidence of Tifa having a room of her own either, so does she sleep with Cloud on his shitty cot or what? 3) There is no such furniture in the room that could be construed as looking like it belongs in a man's room, 4) Every office I've ever been in had decorations of this nature all over the place, photos of family and friends, drawings done by the owners kids, etc, 5) You said this twice.

No, the chair is a chair that looks somewhat like this:
chair.gif

Again, I know what a chair looks like, having spent much of my life sitting in one chair or another. There is nothing in Cloud's office that resembles that, the closest match I see is the window sill.

The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing.

There is a door showing. The door Tifa entered through, which swings inward to the room instead of opening out from it? Its in the foreground of the shot, and has a typical office-door type window that you are mistaking for a mirror somehow.

And the tool box could indeed be a tool box - except that you can't see inside of it, so how do you know what's inside?

Ok, so maybe it isn't a tool box. That seems a parsimonious answer considering Cloud needs to keep his tools for the upkeep on Fenrir somewhere, and he has a spare tire or two laying around right beside said box. But, it MIGHT be something else. But its most certainly not a chest of drawers, a dresser, an armoire, etc.

Now, I at least have agreed that we cannot 100% for certain claim Cloud sleeps somewhere else, if only because we have not seen another place for him to sleep. I was expecting you to join in there and admit that you cannot be 100% for certain that Cloud DOES sleep there because it does not look in any way like a bedroom (again, cheap ass cot) and is referred to as an OFFICE. Silly me, eh?

In short, if you are going to demand we prove our claims (we'll ignore the part where you then ignore or twist the proof for the moment), do stop making silly claims you cannot prove.

Tifa was never said to be Cloud's koibito either. Cloud only called Tifa his "nakama", but not his "koibito."

He never called Aerith his koibito either. Aerith called him hers, but not the other way around. Tifa WAS said to be SOMEONE'S koibito, however. Someone loves/desires her. This cannot be ignored or denied. And who makes sense for that role? Someone who lives with her, has a future with her, belongs together with her, and has her in a way that is different from before perhaps?

And yes, Aerith was described as Cloud's koibito here:

ClerithEssay1.jpg

Calling bullshit, right here and now. That is an image from the blasted commercial. I honestly didn't believe you would do that again, so just to be sure I looked it up and double checked. That is where this picture came from. Again, you go to the well of advertisements to make your claim and expect that it will somehow trump what is shown in the games/novellas/film/ultimanias. You will get no respect for your arguments for me for so long as you continue to do this. And no, nothing from that ridiculously inaccurate advert will ever count as "described as" on the level of an actual description in an Ultimania.

That doesn't mean that Cloud loves Tifa.

It means SOMEONE loves Tifa. Cloud is the only one who makes sense, given the word koibito appears while describing Tifa in AC/C. Sucks that this does not please you, but it is still the truth.

The picture above, however, has the word Love over both Cloud and Aerith, so it applies to both of them.

The picture above, however, is meaningless.

No, do we need to hear that Aerith loves Cloud again to know that?

Nope! But we need to hear the Cloud loves her for your arguments to amount to anything.

But not Cloud's.

Who else then? Who else makes any kind of sense to be the one who loves/desires Tifa in the context of the quote?

Back at ya. Since Cloud and Aerith are shown together under the title "Love Between Heroes" on the FTOIL page, and since CoLWhite says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and Cloud's name is actually used, then we know that Cloud and Aerith have a mutual love.

Make up your mind. Are CloudXAerith the canon couple, or is there no canon? Cause the part I bolded, in addition to being dishonest and incorrect, sounds like you're falling back to your old position.

The FTOIL page has already been spelled out for you above and by others, so I'll let that stand for the moment. On the subject of CoLW, no. Just no. Simply identifying the person who is HER koibito by name does not imply mutuality of desire, let alone confirm it. Aerith calling Cloud her koibito means she loves him, it says NOTHING of Cloud's feelings and you know it. Tifa being CALLED koibito means someone loves her, and as stated it is very plain that the someone is Cloud.

Which was neither dishonest nor quote mining, since the part I excluded did not contradict the part I did quote.

Bullshit, but you have been called out on this particular dishonest piece of quote mining several times already.

Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.

You do that on purpose, there is no other explanation. With regards to FFX and X-2. I have not spoken of Yuna and Tidus' love, I have spoken of the deviation where Tidus DOESN'T COME BACK after fading out of existence. I distinctly referred to THAT deviation, love did not come into the example at all. Care to go back, re-read what I actually said, and try again? Here, I'll make it easy.

I said: Tell me how HA-HW is different from Tidus' canonical return to being a real boy, despite both having a deviation in which the events are different?

:monster:
 

Vendel

Banned
I want to retract my statement about the window. Turns out its the same in Marlene and Denzels room too. Which is frankly, bizarre. Who knows? Maybe they got a job lot of windowed doors on the cheap :monster:

I also find the window in the kids door to be odd. But to be fair between the window and the air Vent you can see through about half of Cloud's office door. While the kids room has a smaller window set where the adults can check in (I would guess).

So if the kids want privacy they just need to put something over that window. Cloud would need a new door. Which IMO just further shows that it is an office door and not a bedroom door.




Also that is interesting info about the "Undying feelings" quote.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
or they just used whatever doors were lying around :monster:

no really... Edge is made from junk from Midgar.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
What kind of office doesn't have a chair?

... /is not particularly interested in debating furniture.
It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead.
Honestly I always felt this but at the same time, it shows that Cloud being hung up on strong emotions in the past is less than healthy. I felt like a large part of the movie was him to stop letting things from the past dictate his future.

That said, you still have to convince people here that he loved her. And if he did, why he wouldn't move on even if feelings still linger. Locke/Rachel, Lulu/Chappu, Aerith/Zack are just as equal of examples going the other way.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead.

Except no one argued that Cloud couldn't love Aerith after death. I believe they wanted you to prove he love her when she was alive...

EDIT
also:
Ok, so maybe it isn't a tool box. That seems a parsimonious answer considering Cloud needs to keep his tools for the upkeep on Fenrir somewhere, and he has a spare tire or two laying around right beside said box. But, it MIGHT be something else. But its most certainly not a chest of drawers, a dresser, an armoire, etc.

Cloud keeps his pet turtle, Steve, in the box. Prove I'm wrong :awesome:
 
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