The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

Okay sorry for double posting, but I'm want everyone to see this. I enhanced my previous image a bit and labelled everything like everyone else did. It's a bit lighter so you can DEFINITELY see there's no chair.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3386/labeledroom.jpg

I would also like to bring to the table, these images:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2686/screenshotfinalfantasyv.png - IF there was a chair in the spot that Anastar said there was, it should be visible here, but we see no such thing.

Also:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/2686/screenshotfinalfantasyv.png
and
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/2686/screenshotfinalfantasyv.png


Not sure if those will help but... now I just have one question. One serious question that I would like an answer to:



How the hell did we talk about this for like 20 pages?

 

[Celes Chere]

lmao these charts about what is a chair and what isn't is so ridiculously hilarious. I haven't laughed this hard since the arguments about the shape of Aerith's bow and that red=pink.

 

[Ryushikaze]

lmao these charts about what is a chair and what isn't is so ridiculously hilarious. I haven't laughed this hard since the arguments about the shape of Aerith's bow and that red=pink.

Those, I must say, were epically hilarious.

Especially the glorious self-ownage that came from posting the Wall Market ribbon which proved her argument was not possible.

 

[Celes Chere]

Good times. *shakes head* I guess we need something ridiculous and new to match up with the arguments of the past.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We need to quit spamming and post in regards to the topic, not how insane the arguments are.

Insane they may be.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead.

You mean that 'love that could never be'?

Aside from the inaccuracy of allowing commercials and merchandise into the debate, who is to say that the 'love could never be' because she died. After all, it's been pointed out that Cloud can hate after death, so love is possible. Therefore death can't be the reason the 'love could never be', so it begs the question, what would stop Cloud and Aerith's love from forming? As it never can...(as stated in the commercial). Hmmm... could it be that Cloud is in love with someone else? O.o Fucking logic, how I love thee.

Seriously, stop using that retarded commercial or I'll use it as a Cloti point in rebuttal for the logical reasons stated above. You painted yourself into a corner by stating that death couldn't stop love, so if the love 'can never be' something else is in the way. Something with a fantastic rack and an awesome high-kick.

Honestly I always felt this but at the same time, it shows that Cloud being hung up on strong emotions in the past is less than healthy.

Well, Sephiroth burned down his home, killed his MOTHER, destroyed his dreams, and then tried to obliterate the planet while taunting him and killing more friends along the way. I can sort of understand how Cloud would harbor some lingering hatred for the guy. Just sayin'.

 

[Master Bates]

@furniture arguments. I lol'ed.

I asked guidance from the gods and I received answer from them for this hell-hole of an LTD/Love Polygon. Behold the solution:

MWF - Cloti, Zerith
TTHS - Clerith, Fack
Sundays - Clack, Aeti

There. Everybody happy.

Now I see Mako's mad at me, I'm going to get my ass kicked to ban city But there's just something I want to point out. I don't think this has been brought before.

Since someone has pointed out that the hand in the light is definitely Aerith (not that I disagree) because of obvious hints, what with the bgm being Aerith's theme and all... in the subject of themes, did anyone of you notice how Cloud's and Tifa's themes were playing simultaneously (overlapping each other's themes) when they were dangling on the cliffs during the ending sequence? I swear their themes were playing. What should we take from that then?

I'm not saying this is serious proof for C/T, I just thought it's a nice touch. And since I don't think anyone has ever pointed this out before, I'm bringing this observation out into the open.

 

[Anastar]

Tres

Not the point. When did the issues start? IMO, Cloud and Tifa had issues with each other during the game, too. Wouldn't Nojima be aware of that?

The domestic issues in CoT couldn't be issues during FFVII for the simple fact that the two weren't yet in a domestic setting. Things that haven't happened yet can't be an issue before they've happened.

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that, since the same issues often carry over to other settings. For example, my mother tends to get on my nerves with "over-protectiveness" when I'm shopping with her. If I stay overnight at her house, she does the same thing and I have the same reaction.

Of course they can. Once again, the date mechanism makes the feelings mutual between Cloud and whatever partner you pick. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then the affection of that partner increases for Cloud. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then Cloud's affection for that partner increases, too. Same thing happens in reverse if Cloud doesn't act nicely to the partner. The partner's affection for Cloud decreases, and Cloud's affection for that partner decreases.

Therefore, if you get the Low Affection version, Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud and Cloud has a low affection rating for Tifa. Therefore, their feelings are mutual in the Low Affection scene.

You're still applying a gameplay-only mechanic to the set-in-stone narrative, despite repeated official statements that Tifa loves Cloud romantically. Within the actual narrative, this is how she always will feel.

The player trying to change it with a gameplay mechanic will no more change Tifa's feelings than leaving Vincent in the basement of the Shin-Ra Manor will make him not join AVALANCHE. She loves Cloud, and Vincent joined the team. Those things cannot be changed.

And you're going on the assumption that love can never change. You're acting like there can't be degrees of love or something, but there can. For example, there can be platonic love as well as romantic love as well as parental love as well as sexual attraction as well as playboy crushes. All are quite different in nature and all are experienced at a different intensity in different ways by different individuals.

What you mean by "Tifa loves Cloud" may be very different than what another random Cloti supporter means by "Tifa loves Cloud". You may mean that Tifa has an intense sexual desire for Cloud while loving him romantically as a mutual partner. The random fan may see it as Tifa having no sexual desire for Cloud and loving him more as a mother loves a child, like Nomura described it in the following excerpt from the Reunion Files:

"Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." ~Nomura; Reunion Files

Nomura himself is saying that Tifa loves Cloud there, but he's saying that she loves him from a maternal perspective rather than as a sexual partner.

So, despite what you say, "Tifa loves Cloud" can have many different meanings, and not all meanings convey that he is a romantic partner.

Not to mention you're still pointing to a scene that simply does not exist.

And which scene is this? The Low Affection version of the Highwind scene? How can you say it doesn't exist when the script for it is given in the FFVII UO? You told us that the scripts for both versions were given in the FFVII UO when you visited the CxA Forum:

What you just described is the high affection version and the low affection version. That's all there is.

Again, the Ultimania Omega (pg. 201) provides the script for both versions, and the high affection version doesn't have more than one reaction for Tifa. That one reaction is "Were you watching?" followed by crumbling to the floor. ~TresDias, Nov 20, 2009
Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=297495&t=529440

Didn't you say that the script being available means that version is canon?

And I understand the 10th AU story summary has a picture of the Clerith date scene next to the summary of the date sequence. Does that mean the Clerith date is canon?

Que already cleared this misunderstanding up, but, no, the 10th AU's story summary does not have a picture of any date.

Hmm... well, I know it was featured somewhere. Maybe the FFVII UO? Sorry, I'd check for myself, but I don't have the books.

Oh, but I did find this from the FFVII UO:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/FFVIIUOimpressivescenes.jpg

It's the Impressive Scenes pages, and you forgot to mention that Aerith's death scene is there, too. You know, the part where Cloud is holding a dead Aerith in his arms and saying, "What are we going to do?" I always thought that it would be rather weird for Cloud to say "we" to mean "Avalanche" because Avalanche didn't know about Holy until Disk Two. So it's more likely that Cloud means "me and Aerith" when he says, "we". Then there's the pic of Cloud laying Aerith into the water during the funeral. Ye know, the same pic they used in the commercial with the caption "Love" over it:

The same scene which was re-enacted in AC/ACC, so I'd say it has some significance.

But anybody who's played the game knows that he's talking about his feelings for her as a kid when he says that line. There's nothing saying that those are his feelings for her now, except on an optional basis.

The quote doesn't say "past feelings" or "his feelings when they were children." Just "his feelings for Tifa." That's straightforward.

But it can't be Cloud's feelings for her now, except on an optional basis - even SE says so when they specify in the 20th AU that the HW scene has a deviation and when they specify in the FFVII UO that the HW scene has a Low Affection and a High Affection version. Plus, they give the script for both versions in the FFVII UO.

Shall I look it up for you?

PRECEPT II.--Treat different topics in separate paragraphs, and distinct sentiments in separate sentences.
Source: http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Grammar-of-English-Grammars48.html

Yeah, stop trying it. You're really trying to argue that the two lines are grouped together separate from the rest of the shit on the page, but have no relation to each other? That those two lines are just randomly floating on the page, disconnected from any cogent message? Bull. Shit. You don't believe that.

And you obviously have no way to argue the point since you're resorting to insults as the only possible comeback.

Exactly my point. If it's not shown in the HA version, what makes you think it's shown in the LA version?

If you don't require it to be shown in the HA version, and you're relying on the description which says they communicated mutual feelings without words, then why do you require that it be shown in the LA version? Why isn't it enough that we are told that their conversation is apathetic?

If it's enough for the HA version that SE tells us what they said (or demonstrated without words), then it should be enough for the LA version that SE tells us what they said.

Yeah, except the high affection version does show us what we've been told it contains. We see Cloud looking for the words to convey his feelings, come up short, and then Tifa recommend a physical display instead.

You're inventing a scene that does not exist.

But I've already shown you that SE does describe the LA version, and we know it exists because the script for the LA version is given on page 201 in the FFVII UO (according to you).

Then why does SE say it exists?

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If the conversation is apathetic, then the two of them are indifferent to one another.

Don't ask me to show where this happens in the LA version when SE says it happens. If you don't have to show where it happens in the HA version because SE says it happens, then the same standards should apply to the LA version.

SE didn't say what you're claiming they did. Not only is it absurd to claim that Tifa could be disinterested in Cloud, but you keep referring to this concept of a "disinterested conversation scene" as though it makes any kind of sense.

Fuck's sake, the word you've insisted on labeling "apathetic" ("tanpaku"; 淡白) makes more sense as "candid" or "simple." A conversation can be candid/simple and end short.

Which is another problem with your claims about the low affection version of the scene: you keep claiming that a quote that says the scene ends short somehow indicates that a longer conversation happened after Cloud and Tifa said they were going to sleep.

LMAO... I love the how you randomly accuse me of things.

For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

But no matter... fine, let's go with "candid". Candid means honest, does it not?

candid ~adjective
1. frank; outspoken; open and sincere: a candid critic.
2. free from reservation, disguise, or subterfuge; straightforward: a candid opinion.
3. informal; unposed: a candid photo.
4. honest; impartial: a candid mind.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/candid

So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like, "Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."

It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player. That's also why the characters didn't demonstrate their feelings with actions in the movie, too. SE wanted it left open to the interpretation of the players.

IF SE wanted to canonize a couple, they could easily have had Cloud act it out with one of the girls with a kiss or embrace. Instead, SE tossed out subtle hints for both girls (although I thought it was more obvious with Aerith) in the movies, and left it up to the player to decide.

Well, if you don't have to pay any attention to our quotes, why should I have to pay any attention to your quotes?

I am paying attention to the quote, goddammit. I'm just not examining it in a vacuum like you are, and then applying the vacuum-sealed results of an isolated analysis to everything outside the vacuum.

Once again, let's get personal about each other's approach so that we can avoid actually answering.

You're ignoring two other quotes from Nomura that contradict your claim of what he said there.

Know why I'm ignoring them? You're the first person to PM those quotes to me. The only parts of this thread I read are the posts sent to me in PM. If you don't send it to me in PM, then I don't read it.

First

The one Que posted several days ago that was said in May 2004:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=369931&postcount=1382

More than a year before Advent Children was released, Nomura was asked what the relationship between Cloud and Tifa was -- and responded that the movie shows it.

Actually, Nomura didn't say that, according to Quex's post:

"What is the relation of Cloud and Tifa."
Nomura: I believe that this volume [the movie] is able to deeply grasp the truth concerning the relationship between the two. It's easy to completely explain using words but..."

Nomura said that the movie grasps the truth concerning the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. He didn't say the movie shows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

However, I think you're being too hard on Nomura. He obviously knows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, but he said he didn't know the relationship between them in the Nov interview. I think what he's doing is very obvious. He says he doesn't know because he doesn't want to reveal it. Parents do that to kids all the time - it's an old tactic. People do that when they're trying to keep a secret.

Do you see the problem with your claim that he has no idea what their relationship is? He'd already said he did know.

And I guess I'm too subtle for you, since I was trying to show that SE didn't want to reveal the relationship between Cloud and Tifa - they wanted to leave it open to the interpretation of players/viewers. In saying that he "doesn't know", Nomura obviously means he "doesn't want to tell".

Either he was trying to stir shit up in that quote you keep coming back to, or he was saying he didn't personally know what went on in the two years between FFVII and AC/C, but did know what the status of their relationship was after that. In either case, he hasn't said that he doesn't know.

Which most likely means he doesn't want to tell - he wants people to figure it out for themselves.

Second
In the Reunion Files, Nomura says that one of Tifa's roles is that of a koibito. Even if you refuse to admit that it's referring to Cloud, given your insistence otherwise that koibito implies mutual feelings, if Tifa's somebody's koibito, Nomura should damn well know what the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.

FACT: it does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE. Therefore, you cannot assign that role to anyone that you want to. SE has to do that.

And for the last goddamn time, it's not my quotes and your quotes. They're all SE's quotes.

Yes, dear. It's short for "SE quotes that I use" and "SE quotes that you use".

And Nomura being one of the writers of the movie isn't important, either:

"When Nomura joined Visual Works on the project, way back in 2003, the CG movie had been originally planned and announced as a 20-minute short. "It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa," remembered Nomura. "It was a good piece in itself, but as an entertainment piece or product, 20 minutes is too short and the story wasn't enough." So Nomura came up with a more intricate plot himself, and had scenario writer Kazushige Nojima-- who also worked on FFVII, VIII, and X with Nomura-- flesh out the scenes. "The new story turned out to be approximately an hour and since then we kept adding scenes and episodes. But the 20-minute piece is still the base of what we have now." (Anime Insider's October Issue, 2005)

So Nojima didn't write it by himself. Nomura was involved in the writing, too.

To be accurate, that isn't the same as writing the script (not to mention that Nojima's the one who decided that Cloud and Tifa would be together, and is the one responsible for their characterization), but, yes, I'll grant you that Nomura played a significant role in crafting the plot.

IMO, crafting the plot is actually more important than crafting the script, since you can't have a script without a plot to base it on. Usually, too, the script writer consults with the plot writer before making any changes.

And Nojima didn't say whether "together" meant together romantically or together as friends, did he? I mean, you could say that Cid and Shera were together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town in FFVII, but Cid and Shera weren't romantically involved at that time.

By the way: Why are you still referring to interviews when you've already said you only want to go by what's in games, movies and novellas? Apply an even fucking standard.

No, what I said was that I would only go by what's in games, movies, and novella's to canonize a pairing. I never said we had to ignore interviews. To quote me:

The point is that you are claiming that something is established as canon without it ever being backed up by what happened in the games/movies/novellas. IF something is made canon, it will be established as canon in the games/movie/novella FIRST and then mentioned in the book(s). If something has NOT been established as canon in the games/movies/novellas first, then I will not accept that it is canon because it's mentioned in the book.
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...highlight=games,+movies,+novella's#post370478

Where did I say we had to ignore interviews?

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

Yeah, bullshit. Que's already pointed to where hito said "koibito" can be one-sided pre-Case of the Lifestream (Ryu did too).

The meaning was always the same. Your attempt at rewriting history with lies? FUCKING FAILED.

No, it didn't fail at all, since what I quoted showed that Hito was using both meanings - the meaning of "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend" and the meaning of "beloved". You only acknowledge the one meaning.

The word "koibito" can be translated both ways. That means a possible meaning for the word's usage in CoLWhite is "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend", in which case Cloud loves Aerith, too.

Actually, there is. See what I have labeled as "cabinet" in the following picture?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png

That pic's lightened, but you can find the original here:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555669.png

At any rate, that thing in the corner that I labeled as "CABINET" looks like it has drawers to me. Then there's an open trunk right in front of it where he could put clothes.

Annie, your "cabinet" is a box. One not even as tall as the desk. And that "trunk" isn't even as thick as the motorcycle tire laying beside it.

"Am not!!!" "Are so!!!"

When you stop to think that he was living in Aerith's Church without a bed or change of clothes or shower or kitchen for several months IIRC, then why do you think he'd be so fussy about the furnishings in his room?

'Cause he's been demonstrated to enjoy the finer things in life (his motorcycle, his clothes, his jewelry, his weapons, etc.), and it doesn't make any kind of sense for his bedroom to be any exception to the thorough attention he gives everything else in his life.

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room, since he puts money into what he wears and the motorcycle he rides instead of where he lives. A shrink would most likely say that he's trying to dissociate himself from the Seventh Heaven that way.

As for how long he was at the church, I don't think that's ever really been specified.

It's not on the Timeline published at TLS, but I've always heard it's at least a couple of months.

Also notice the MIRROR - no need for that in an office.

I'm really not seeing a mirror. And, yeah, actually, I've seen mirrors in lots of offices.

Turns out that's the window of the door, as shown in this picture:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555559.png

Then all the boxes, probably for him to store his personal stuff.

Instead of business supplies?

Point is, it could be either one - and we don't know for sure which one it is.

 

[Celes Chere]

it does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE.

So.. is she a koibito to HERSELF then? Who else could she be a koibito to, other than Cloud?

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room,

Lol.

 

[Dashell]

Anastar, I have officially lost my patience with you. You wanna debate, fine, but stop with the obvious lies and finger pointing. I didn't let them attack you when you first came here, and I'm not going to let you attack them. And no I'm not talking about saying stuff like "Cloti isn't canon" or "the FTOIL page says both couples are optional." I mean stuff like this:

It's the Impressive Scenes pages, and you forgot to mention that Aerith's death scene is there, too.

He posted a SCAN of it. Anyone with two eyes can see that Aerith's death scene is there. First of all, why the hell would he have to mention something that obvious that ANYONE can see? And even if you didn't see him post it, or you didn't happen to see it this time around, I happen to know for a fact that I've pointed out that very scan to you before.

Second of all, I believe it was a member trying to argue against Cloti that originally said Aerith's death was NOT there and Tres posted the scan saying, "Yes it is."

And why should he have to mention it when it's not even relevant to his point? His point was the HA scene is important to the staff and has a better chance of being canon. What does Aerith's death have to do with that? Does Aerith's death somehow negate the HA scene? Because YOU think it's romantic? Your argument that Aerith's death is somehow romantic is only your OPINION! It's not our opinion that the HA scene is romantic, we've been TOLD this. So where are the scenes that we've been told are romantic for CxA?... oh that's right... there isn't any.

And of course Aerith's death is an impressive scene. I mean that should go without saying.

No, it didn't fail at all, since what I quoted showed that Hito was using both meanings - the meaning of "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend" and the meaning of "beloved". You only acknowledge the one meaning.

So

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

You admit you LIED here when you said before CoLW Hito said it always meant mutual attraction? And you just told another lie about Tres. Tres said it could be translated as boyfriend/girlfriend/lover depending on the context. What the hell? I sent this to you like twice. There's no reason you haven't seen it. Stop trying to attack his credibility with lies. It's just ridiculous. Should I do that to you?

Not only did you do this to Tres, now you're dragging me into it for some reason.

For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

Yeah I'm going to do it... guys go ahead and give me a warning for bringing up other forums if need be:

Okay, now in all seriousness Anastar, what did I do to you to deserve being on the other end of your lies? I've been trying to help you and you here and you go and tell a lie about me? Maybe you're trying to attack my credibility with translations and... well you don't need to, we all know I suck at it

Look here:

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=323113&t=531419

When I posted TRES's translation saying it was "candid" and ends short, you said "I disagree, I've always seen apathetic."

So this
For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

Is a lie. And you're using CHIBICA's translation of that line BTW, not mine.

Afterwards I even said to you:
Actually I didn't do these translations, I think Tres did. But the word used for "apathetic" or "candid" is tanpaku, which is basically a way of saying it's indifferent, plain or simple, so really I think either word works. It's blah, I think is the point

http://www.nihongodict.com/w/57740/tanpaku/

Full topic here:
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/531419/1/

What is your logic, woman? This is just getting insane. (and I already screenshot everything so don't bother trying to edit it)

Whatever it is you're doing, please stop it. If you want to have an honest debate here and really try to disprove Cloti, fine, we can do that. But if you want to try to lie about things people have said and try to attack people's credibility, you can take me on. I have nothing to lose. I'll go solo, one on one with you. Do you want that? Do you want or do you want to stop lying and attacking credibility and be honest? I'm fine either way.

 

[Master Bates]

I am so going to regret this, but whatever. Will comment on a few things.

See here, Miss Annie. I believe every female has a maternal side to them. It's inherent in women. Tifa feeling maternal towards Cloud doesn't make her Cloud's momma, nor does it negate any romantic feelings from her to Chocobutt. It is an addition to her feelings (a newfound one), not a transformation.

I'm a guy and even I know that. Seriously, this "Tifa/Aerith is Cloud's mother" argument needs to die because it makes no FUCKING SENSE (yes, senses nowadays are sexually active).

Second, the thing with the Aerith's death being included in the "Impressive Scenes" means that the event is SIGNIFICANT, same with the "Highwind scene", "The Rufus Shinra first encounter scene", and the "Shinra Tower scene". It does not necessarily make Aerith's death romantic. Otherwise, I would argue that Rufus is an eligible candidate for Cloud's romantic affection as well, what with him in the impressive scenes and all.

Third, it's true that the "koibito" word can be translated as "sweetheart/lover/boyfriend/girlfriend" as well as "beloved", but as Hito pointed out in this post that explains the infamous word, that the translation would depend on the context. He explicitly stated the subjectivity of feelings. Now in examining the koibito word with regards to how it's used in Tifa's RF and in CoLW (the woman is unnamed, btw), this is where you should apply Occam's Bloody Razor.

And as to the rest of the post... I think I had some dejavu. It's like... I've seen this before.

 

[Dashell]

Missed this:

Turns out that's the window of the door, as shown in this picture:

You just said two posts ago that you didn't see the door.

The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing.

Is there a door or isn't there? Give us something here.

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room,

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN? D:

 

[Master Bates]

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room,

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN? D:

LOL when I first read that I was reminded the, "son, you were conceived on the motorcycle" joke from some time ago.

To make this post relevant: Cloud and Tifa fucked like there's no tomorrow under the Highwind. Trufax.

 

[Theozilla]

Tres

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that, since the same issues often carry over to other settings. For example, my mother tends to get on my nerves with "over-protectiveness" when I'm shopping with her. If I stay overnight at her house, she does the same thing and I have the same reaction.

And you're going on the assumption that love can never change. You're acting like there can't be degrees of love or something, but there can. For example, there can be platonic love as well as romantic love as well as parental love as well as sexual attraction as well as playboy crushes. All are quite different in nature and all are experienced at a different intensity in different ways by different individuals.

What you mean by "Tifa loves Cloud" may be very different than what another random Cloti supporter means by "Tifa loves Cloud". You may mean that Tifa has an intense sexual desire for Cloud while loving him romantically as a mutual partner. The random fan may see it as Tifa having no sexual desire for Cloud and loving him more as a mother loves a child, like Nomura described it in the following excerpt from the Reunion Files:

"Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." ~Nomura; Reunion Files

Nomura himself is saying that Tifa loves Cloud there, but he's saying that she loves him from a maternal perspective rather than as a sexual partner.

So, despite what you say, "Tifa loves Cloud" can have many different meanings, and not all meanings convey that he is a romantic partner.

Are you really asking a poster on the LTD thread to define what they mean by "Cloud loves Tifa"?
Also all of what you arguing could just as easily be applied to Aerith, who is also described as having a maternal relationship with Cloud as well.
And having a maternal relationship and a sexual relationship is not mutually exclusive.
And the Ultimania's compile Cloud's relationships/interactions into the section where all the other Final Fantasy characters' romantic relationships are compiled, meaning those interactions are categorized as romantic.

TresAnd which scene is this? The Low Affection version of the Highwind scene? How can you say it doesn't exist when the script for it is given in the FFVII UO? You told us that the scripts for both versions were given in the FFVII UO when you visited the CxA Forum:

What you just described is the high affection version and the low affection version. That's all there is.

Again, the Ultimania Omega (pg. 201) provides the script for both versions, and the high affection version doesn't have more than one reaction for Tifa. That one reaction is "Were you watching?" followed by crumbling to the floor. ~TresDias, Nov 20, 2009
Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=297495&t=529440

Didn't you say that the script being available means that version is canon?

Hmm... well, I know it was featured somewhere. Maybe the FFVII UO? Sorry, I'd check for myself, but I don't have the books.

Oh, but I did find this from the FFVII UO:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/FFVIIUOimpressivescenes.jpg

It's the Impressive Scenes pages, and you forgot to mention that Aerith's death scene is there, too. You know, the part where Cloud is holding a dead Aerith in his arms and saying, "What are we going to do?" I always thought that it would be rather weird for Cloud to say "we" to mean "Avalanche" because Avalanche didn't know about Holy until Disk Two. So it's more likely that Cloud means "me and Aerith" when he says, "we". Then there's the pic of Cloud laying Aerith into the water during the funeral. Ye know, the same pic they used in the commercial with the caption "Love" over it:

The same scene which was re-enacted in AC/ACC, so I'd say it has some significance.

But it can't be Cloud's feelings for her now, except on an optional basis - even SE says so when they specify in the 20th AU that the HW scene has a deviation and when they specify in the FFVII UO that the HW scene has a Low Affection and a High Affection version. Plus, they give the script for both versions in the FFVII UO.

And you obviously have no way to argue the point since you're resorting to insults as the only possible comeback.

But I've already shown you that SE does describe the LA version, and we know it exists because the script for the LA version is given on page 201 in the FFVII UO (according to you).

LMAO... I love the how you randomly accuse me of things.

For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

But no matter... fine, let's go with "candid". Candid means honest, does it not?

candid ~adjective
1. frank; outspoken; open and sincere: a candid critic.
2. free from reservation, disguise, or subterfuge; straightforward: a candid opinion.
3. informal; unposed: a candid photo.
4. honest; impartial: a candid mind.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/candid

So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like, "Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."

It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player. That's also why the characters didn't demonstrate their feelings with actions in the movie, too. SE wanted it left open to the interpretation of the players.

IF SE wanted to canonize a couple, they could easily have had Cloud act it out with one of the girls with a kiss or embrace. Instead, SE tossed out subtle hints for both girls (although I thought it was more obvious with Aerith) in the movies, and left it up to the player to decide.

Once again, let's get personal about each other's approach so that we can avoid actually answering.

Know why I'm ignoring them? You're the first person to PM those quotes to me. The only parts of this thread I read are the posts sent to me in PM. If you don't send it to me in PM, then I don't read it.

Actually, Nomura didn't say that, according to Quex's post:

"What is the relation of Cloud and Tifa."
Nomura: I believe that this volume [the movie] is able to deeply grasp the truth concerning the relationship between the two. It's easy to completely explain using words but..."

Nomura said that the movie grasps the truth concerning the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. He didn't say the movie shows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

However, I think you're being too hard on Nomura. He obviously knows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, but he said he didn't know the relationship between them in the Nov interview. I think what he's doing is very obvious. He says he doesn't know because he doesn't want to reveal it. Parents do that to kids all the time - it's an old tactic. People do that when they're trying to keep a secret.

And I guess I'm too subtle for you, since I was trying to show that SE didn't want to reveal the relationship between Cloud and Tifa - they wanted to leave it open to the interpretation of players/viewers. In saying that he "doesn't know", Nomura obviously means he "doesn't want to tell".

Which most likely means he doesn't want to tell - he wants people to figure it out for themselves.

FACT: it does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE. Therefore, you cannot assign that role to anyone that you want to. SE has to do that.

Yes, dear. It's short for "SE quotes that I use" and "SE quotes that you use".

IMO, crafting the plot is actually more important than crafting the script, since you can't have a script without a plot to base it on. Usually, too, the script writer consults with the plot writer before making any changes.

And Nojima didn't say whether "together" meant together romantically or together as friends, did he? I mean, you could say that Cid and Shera were together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town in FFVII, but Cid and Shera weren't romantically involved at that time.

No, what I said was that I would only go by what's in games, movies, and novella's to canonize a pairing. I never said we had to ignore interviews. To quote me:

The point is that you are claiming that something is established as canon without it ever being backed up by what happened in the games/movies/novellas. IF something is made canon, it will be established as canon in the games/movie/novella FIRST and then mentioned in the book(s). If something has NOT been established as canon in the games/movies/novellas first, then I will not accept that it is canon because it's mentioned in the book.
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...highlight=games,+movies,+novella's#post370478

Where did I say we had to ignore interviews?

No, it didn't fail at all, since what I quoted showed that Hito was using both meanings - the meaning of "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend" and the meaning of "beloved". You only acknowledge the one meaning.

The word "koibito" can be translated both ways. That means a possible meaning for the word's usage in CoLWhite is "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend", in which case Cloud loves Aerith, too.

"Am not!!!" "Are so!!!"

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room, since he puts money into what he wears and the motorcycle he rides instead of where he lives. A shrink would most likely say that he's trying to dissociate himself from the Seventh Heaven that way.

It's not on the Timeline published at TLS, but I've always heard it's at least a couple of months.

Turns out that's the window of the door, as shown in this picture:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555559.png

Point is, it could be either one - and we don't know for sure which one it is.

How many times does this need to be repeated? Yes, the Ultimania's include the deviations, they also do it for the other Final Fantasy Games, because they are deviations in the gameplay, however this does not mean there is not a canon version for the narrative. Like in Final Fantasy X-2 there are two possible endings, but the one where Tidus comes back is the canon one. Likewise the HA Highwind has been stated to be the canon version to the narrative.

And of course Aerith's death scene is significant to the narrative, it was significant to gamedom in general, that does not make romantic. And previous posters have repeatedly debunked the accuracy of the commercial, and how commercials in general are not meant to show the canon significance of stories. And how the commercial itself is not that great a support for Cleriths in general.

grasp (grsp)
v. grasped, grasp·ing, grasps
v.tr.
1. To take hold of or seize firmly with or as if with the hand.
2. To clasp firmly with or as if with the hand.
3. To take hold of intellectually; comprehend. See Synonyms at apprehend.
v.intr.
1. To make a motion of seizing, snatching, or clutching.
2. To show eager and prompt willingness or acceptance: grasps at any opportunity.
n.
1. The act of grasping.
2.
a. A firm hold or grip.
b. An embrace.
3. The ability or power to seize or attain; reach: Victory in the election was within her grasp.
4. Understanding; comprehension: "only a vague intuitive grasp of the meaning of greatness in literature" (Gilbert Highet).

That means the movie shows how to understand the truth of Cloud's and Tifa's relationship.

And there is no evidence that Cloud considers his motorcycle his "room", especially when he was living in 7th Heaven for before he even purchase the motorcycle. Especially when at the end of states ACC he is returning to his home.

If someone is called a kobito, that means they are a kobito to someone, like how someone cannot be called beloved/sweetheart/greatly cared for unless they are considered that by someone else. So, Tifa has to be by logic considered a kobito by someone, and has others posters have said Cloud is the only logical option.

(I accidentally did some duplicate posts of this, I'll delete them later when they show up. Sorry)

EDIT: Thanks Ishtar

 

[Dashell]

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room, since he puts money into what he wears and the motorcycle he rides instead of where he lives. A shrink would most likely say that he's trying to dissociate himself from the Seventh Heaven that way.

He just has to get away from that kid that Aerith lead to him, right? Too much damn stress, taking care of the child your lover brings to you.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Wow, that anonymous tip saying things had gotten even crazier than usual in here was right. Even Q snapped. Bravo btw Quex. So, let's see what we got here...

Tres

Is not me, and I'm gonna comment anyway. Please don't parrot the "Why are you answering for Tres?!" thing again just because I voice my own thoughts, kthnx.

And you're going on the assumption that love can never change. You're acting like there can't be degrees of love or something, but there can. For example, there can be platonic love as well as romantic love as well as parental love as well as sexual attraction as well as playboy crushes. All are quite different in nature and all are experienced at a different intensity in different ways by different individuals.

We were told it is romantic love. Not platonic. Platonic makes no sense for inclusion on the FTOIL page, not the fact that Tifa is someone's koibito, not any of the various other Cloti supporting evidence.

What you mean by "Tifa loves Cloud" may be very different than what another random Cloti supporter means by "Tifa loves Cloud".

If they're both Cloti supporters, we can be reasonably sure they both mean "romantic" love. Otherwise they wouldn't be Cloti supporters.

You may mean that Tifa has an intense sexual desire for Cloud while loving him romantically as a mutual partner. The random fan

A random fan does not equate to a Cloti supporter, pick one.

may see it as Tifa having no sexual desire for Cloud and loving him more as a mother loves a child, like Nomura described it in the following excerpt from the Reunion Files:

Nomura said no such thing and you know it. ONE of the roles Tifa was stated to fill is to be like a mother, yes, and she does have some maternal feeling for Cloud. Its already been said that there is nothing wrong with or abnormal about that, I know my girl mothers me some when needed. Aerith has a motherly streak for Cloud too, so that's all but meaningless either way. But go ahead and ignore that the quote much more likely describes her as like a mother TO THE KIDS, if it gets ya to sleep at night. Just don't lie to us about it.

]"Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." ~Nomura; Reunion Files

Bolded for emphasis, emphasis included FGJ.

Nomura himself is saying that Tifa loves Cloud there, but he's saying that she loves him from a maternal perspective rather than as a sexual partner.

Re-read that with my bolding. "Like Aerith, she [Tifa] has a maternal side to her" he says. And in a different sense too. So perhaps Tifa is the one who wants to fuck the "big kid himself" rather than Aerith?

Or maybe this whole line of reasoning is retarded and should just be let go. Yeah, that sounds right.

So, despite what you say, "Tifa loves Cloud" can have many different meanings, and not all meanings convey that he is a romantic partner.

Tifa's love for Cloud is not up for question. It is confirmed as romantic interest. End of, quit trying to convince anyone of that. This would ideally include yourself.

It's the Impressive Scenes pages, and you forgot to mention that Aerith's death scene is there, too.

No he didn't, as Quex already said. The only person claiming it was not there was not arguing from the Cloti position at all if I remember, so turn that accusation somewhere else.

You know, the part where Cloud is holding a dead Aerith in his arms and saying, "What are we going to do?" I always thought that it would be rather weird for Cloud to say "we" to mean "Avalanche" because Avalanche didn't know about Holy until Disk Two. So it's more likely that Cloud means "me and Aerith" when he says, "we".

Your belief here is, as usual, unsupported assumptions made by way of seeing where you want the evidence to lead and hitting it with a hammer until it points there. "We" most simply and likely refers to the living, who now have to get by without their good friend/best healer/excellent magic user. Also the girl straight up told Cloud she was "the only one who can stop Sephiroth" which, hey, she was both right and wrong about. So it is a perfectly valid question for him to ask in regards to AVALANCHE, no romance with the newly dead girl required.

Then there's the pic of Cloud laying Aerith into the water during the funeral.

You mean Cloud STANDINg in the water? Being as he carried her out there for burial at sea[/sea] pond and all? He's not exactly lounging out there with her corpse.

Ye know, the same pic they used in the commercial with the caption "Love" over it:

We've seen the still image from the commercial. It is FROM THE COMMERCIAL. THIS MAKES IT LESS THAN USEFUL, AS HAS BEEN SAID TO YOU MANY TIMES. And as I pointed out, I'll not respect a thing you say so long as you are bringing up bullshit like commercials and merchandise placement. That goes not only for the dishonest, but the irrelevant as well. You wanna talk commercial, remember that the very image you keep referring to calls it a "love that can never be" so if it IS talking about Cloud and Aerith, then IT CAN NEVER BE.

Honestly, at least pull out some nonsense that doesn't sink your ship.

The same scene which was re-enacted in AC/ACC, so I'd say it has some significance.

Nothing was re-enacted. Re-enacted implies the same thing was done again. Instead, that was a literal flashback to the same event. It was an important event. Nothing about that says romance, since it was not romantic THE FIRST TIME WE SAW IT.

But it can't be Cloud's feelings for her now, except on an optional basis - even SE says so

Gonna keep saying this till it gets through. No they DON'T.

when they specify in the 20th AU that the HW scene has a deviation and when they specify in the FFVII UO that the HW scene has a Low Affection and a High Affection version. Plus, they give the script for both versions in the FFVII UO.

Acknowledgement and explanation of a deviation does not null and void the canonical outcome of the deviation. Deal.

And you obviously have no way to argue the point since you're resorting to insults as the only possible comeback.

Just as predicted, you are using the "pretend this is insulting so I don't have to acknowledge it" card. I'd hoped you'd be better than this, but I am not surprised you are not. Actual points are raised by Tres in the sections you claim are "nothing but insults because he has no way to argue." I saw his points. So wanna try reading that again Annie? Or do you need someone to read it to you without the mean ol' "insulting" bits?

And for the record, having someone call bullshit on you is not insulting if you are indeed shoveling said excrement of male bovine around.

But I've already shown you that SE does describe the LA version, and we know it exists because the script for the LA version is given on page 201 in the FFVII UO (according to you).

No one ever argued the LA does not exist. Just that is not canon, that the HA is, and that the meaning you claim the LA version has is total rot. When he says "The scene you describe is something you just made up" that is what he means, that you are inventing details of the meaning of that scene by way of pulling them straight from your ass.

LMAO... I love the how you randomly accuse me of things.

I love how you are accused of things in a very orderly fashion, that is to say WHEN YOU DO THOSE THINGS, and you ignore this or call it an insult. No, wait, I absolutely loathe it when you do that.

For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

Why you gotta lie and shit about Quex? She's done a lot of sticking up for you in this thread (and elsewhere, I gather) and this is how you're gonna repay that kindness? Dick move, lady.

Anyway, on to the paragraph that blatant lie was used to set-up. I'm as usual omitting the definition since I'm confident we all know what candid means.

So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like, "Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."

Now I am gonna pull a dickish move of my own and not even discuss that, cause get this: THE LA VERSION DOESN'T MATTER. It is irrelevant if Cloud could or could not have gone into a "you're like a sister to me" line in the LA version because it is NOT WHAT HAPPENED. How do we know that? We've already spelled that out multiple times. Thank you and goodnight.

If anyone else, like Tres (at whom this double-barreled load of crap was aimed) wants to go over this, I will eagerly await the next batch of twisting in Anastar's response to such.

It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player.

Its more than obvious when you get to talking out of your ass about SE's motivations for IF they wanted to do this or WHY they did that.

That's also why the characters didn't demonstrate their feelings with actions in the movie, too. SE wanted it left open to the interpretation of the players.

Or, and I know this is crazy, but ROMANCE WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE MOVIE. Gravity offending sword fights and impossible chase scenes were more important to the film than kissy faces.

IF SE wanted to canonize a couple,

Didn't I just comment on this tendency of yours? Wow you make this difficult, how am I gonna come up with something that soon? Oh right, ye olde filibuster attack.

they could easily have had Cloud act it out with one of the girls with a kiss or embrace. Instead, SE tossed out subtle hints for both girls (although I thought it was more obvious with Aerith) in the movies, and left it up to the player to decide.

Yes, so much more obvious with Aerith. Which is why in your lengthy essay, there was not a bit of supporting evidence that actually stacks up to any single crumb Cloti has going for it. And yet its all up to interpretation.

Except for all the stuff we've pointed out a (insert VERY large figure here) times that can only be interpreted any way other than "Cloud and Tifa are together as a romantic couple AND parents" is if you will allow yourself to see ONLY evidence of Clerith your preferred ship and nothing else.

Once again, let's get personal about each other's approach so that we can avoid actually answering.

Keep on pretending people are insulting you so that you do not have to actually discuss the point. Its not hypocritical at all.

Actually, Nomura didn't say that, according to Quex's post:

Nomura said that the movie grasps the truth concerning the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. He didn't say the movie shows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Same. Fucking. Difference.

However, I think you're being too hard on Nomura. He obviously knows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, but he said he didn't know the relationship between them in the Nov interview. I think what he's doing is very obvious. He says he doesn't know because he doesn't want to reveal it. Parents do that to kids all the time - it's an old tactic. People do that when they're trying to keep a secret.

And I guess I'm too subtle for you, since I was trying to show that SE didn't want to reveal the relationship between Cloud and Tifa - they wanted to leave it open to the interpretation of players/viewers. In saying that he "doesn't know", Nomura obviously means he "doesn't want to tell".

Hallelujah, a concession disguised as an argument. The only one here right now who was claiming Nomura DIDN'T know the truth here is YOU, Annie. Everyone else involved just about has pointed out at least once that he MUST KNOW from his involvement alone, and that in typical Nomura fashion he didn't want to come out and just SAY IT. This does not mean "open for interpretation" so much as "everything you need to find the correct answer is all there, go figure it out."

Which most likely means he doesn't want to tell - he wants people to figure it out for themselves.

I'd quote My Fair Lady with a nice rendition of "By George I Think She's Got It" if I thought you really did. Yes, he wants you to figure it out for yourself. And everything you need to find the CORRECT answer is there. Not at all open to interpretation.

FACT: it does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE.

FACT: It does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE because it is understood that to be a koibito at all, SOMEONE must love/desire her. Do we need a press conference for the already understood definition of words before you'll accept them now too?

Therefore, you cannot assign that role to anyone that you want to. SE has to do that.

This doesn't change the fact that she is loved by SOMEONE, and that Cloud is the only one who makes sense in any sort of context, ergo CLOUD LOVES TIFA. SE DID do that, but as with the Nomura example you just now seem to be twisting vaguely back to its proper shape they didn't spell it out in plain words for you. They gave you what you needed to figure it out. We did, you refuse to.

IMO, crafting the plot is actually more important than crafting the script, since you can't have a script without a plot to base it on. Usually, too, the script writer consults with the plot writer before making any changes.

Aren't you all against opinions? So against them, in fact, that you accuse facts of BEING opinions just to argue against them?

And Nojima didn't say whether "together" meant together romantically or together as friends, did he? I mean, you could say that Cid and Shera were together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town in FFVII, but Cid and Shera weren't romantically involved at that time.

This argument has been weighed, it has been measured, and it has been found wanting. I'm sure someone will point out to you where this was done already, but I know you won't bother to listen to the logic that was expressed there so I for one will not be bothering on this rather silly little point you made.

No, what I said was that I would only go by what's in games, movies, and novella's to canonize a pairing. I never said we had to ignore interviews. To quote me:

The point is that you are claiming that something is established as canon without it ever being backed up by what happened in the games/movies/novellas. IF something is made canon, it will be established as canon in the games/movie/novella FIRST and then mentioned in the book(s). If something has NOT been established as canon in the games/movies/novellas first, then I will not accept that it is canon because it's mentioned in the book.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...highlight=games,+movies,+novella's#post370478

Interesting difference from your demands that SE say, presumably in an interview or ultimania, that "Cloti is canon" before you would accept it. I'm also noticing you still ignoring the fact that their relationship is substantiated by the games/movie/novellas, and that this substantiation is exactly what the interviews and guide books are in reference to.

Where did I say we had to ignore interviews?

Why would anyone here adhere to your ever shifting standards if you had?

No, it didn't fail at all, since what I quoted showed that Hito was using both meanings - the meaning of "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend" and the meaning of "beloved". You only acknowledge the one meaning.

You failed. No less than five people called you out on your blatant quote mine. I remember, even if no PM informed you of those responses. Your dishonesty has been called, defending yourself on the matter just makes it worse. Like quicksand, the more you struggle, the quicker it sucks you down.

The word "koibito" can be translated both ways. That means a possible meaning for the word's usage in CoLWhite is "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend", in which case Cloud loves Aerith, too.

Ignore the part about context determining if mutuality is conveyed or not. And how there is absolutely no context indicating a damn thing about Cloud's feelings in CoLSW. And how, with no such context, the translation would be more accurate in showing Woman's (as many have said, SE never confirms Woman is actually Aerith, apply your own standards or gtfo) feelings for Cloud and implying NOTHING about his feelings in return. I freely admit that I know jack shit about translating Japanese to English, but my own minimal research is enough to know that much.

"Am not!!!" "Are so!!!"

How is this an argument, and not the very thing you're accusing Tres of in your post? That being, total evasion of serious acknowledgement on the subject he was gracious enough to try and discuss with you?

Well, simple answer is that it is not. You really cannot argue that the things in that room are what you originally claimed. This is damning because by all appearances they're mostly business related stuff that makes sense for an OFFICE. Quex's additional stills of the office actually help drive that home considering how much business related crap he has on the wall, plus the additional angles to prove there is no dresser hidden behind the door or anything. Ergo, you DID exactly what you pretended Tres was doing, you made a smarmy reply with no real response, thus you didn't have to deal with it.

TL;DR, calling bovine excrement on you again.

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room, since he puts money into what he wears and the motorcycle he rides instead of where he lives. A shrink would most likely say that he's trying to dissociate himself from the Seventh Heaven that way.

This is so absurd it hurts my head. I am now taking tylenol because of this. I know not why you would even say something like "maybe he considers his motorcycle to be his room." That makes even less sense than your demands that his office be recognized as his bedroom.

Turns out that's the window of the door, as shown in this picture:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555559.png

No shit Annie, once again nearly everyone present has already told you this. Pictures were posted with labels. Further pictures were posted to show it from different angles in deference to your eye problems, to help make sure you didn't miss it. On behalf of everyone who grew ever more frustrated as you claimed there was a mirror there, thank you for this concession. Care to admit there is no chair now?

Point is, it could be either one - and we don't know for sure which one it is.

And yet, considering that one normally has a dresser/chest of drawers/armoire/anything other than cheap ass boxes for their personal belongings, coupled with the fact that he has to be keeping the paper invoices he has tacked up all over the place somewhere... we can say which is more likely. And here's a clue, it ain't what you want it to be.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

**noms popcorn** Holy bucket of crazy up in here...

I know it's a small thing, really, in the whole scheme of things but:

Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room, since he puts money into what he wears and the motorcycle he rides instead of where he lives. A shrink would most likely say that he's trying to dissociate himself from the Seventh Heaven that way.

Wait, wait... he's using the bike that TIFA BOUGHT HIM to dissociate himself from 7th? You are aware that she bought him Fenrir, right? She's paying for it with a LIFETIME of free meals and drinks from HER bar. LIFETIME...sounds like Cloud had planned on sticking around for quite awhile before geostigma gave him a case of the 'helpless'.

Seriously, know your fucking facts before spouting of nonsensical bullshit ramblings.

/early-morning-not-enough-coffee-fact-slap

 

[Guts]

Man, even if I fully understand the merit of establishing a solid canon in your universe, I think it's low that optional choices such as Shadow or the romance in FFVII is discounted entirely in future works. It's like they wish for the player's experience to become retroactively linear. Don't most FFs besides X-2 and VII suffer from this painful hands off quality enough as is without some post mortem clarification keeping it all woven into one possibility tree and completely invalidating the time you put into their game?

It's why IX is a favourite of mine, so undeniably videogameish and without much post game material to keep a continuity. It's hard to imagine it separate from the player.

I highly dislike it when they try to ignore people play their games and should be a part of their experience, as they are in Souls series, Dragon Quest, ME and even freakin' Pokemon.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I may or may not respond in part or in full to Anastar's post later, but there is something I would like to address first-

I've been informed by a sexy woman that several people are under the misapprehension that they have been told that Japanese lacks personal pronouns such as 'your,' 'mine,' and 'their.'
I would like to officially state that the language DOES have these things. What was expressed in this thread was that these were not, in fact, used during the 'go drink in' sequence in the original Japanese - and revised Japanese- versions of CoT.
Similarly, pronouns were not used during the end sequence of FF7. Cloud never utters the word 'I' (any of the various forms, from ore, boku, watashi, etc) in the sequence. He just says a verb combination. 'Can Meet think' (A very literal translation).
'her' is also never mentioned. This doesn't mean Cloud was not talking about a 'her' it means he did not say the word.
Technically, Tifa never says 'we' either, but she does use the first person plural tense. Tifa's line is the closest to a pronoun used in that sequence.

Lastly, that Tifa's 'beloved-er' is never called out by name no more makes them non-existent or unidentifiable than it makes 'Man' in COLB or 'Woman' in COLW.
Of course, if we really cannot identify the 'beloved-er' because he or she is never identified then how can we ever be certain who either the man or the woman are, since they are never identified either?
A conundrum, that's what it is.

ADDENDUM: Theozilla, I deleted all the moderated instances of your post. You do not need to worry about those.

 

[Dashell]

BTW

Because YOU think it's romantic? Your argument that Aerith's death is somehow romantic is only your OPINION! It's not our opinion that the HAHW scene is romantic, we've been TOLD this. So where are the scenes that we've been told are romantic for CxA?... oh that's right... there isn't any.

In case anyone tries to say "The Clerith date is romantic, Square told us." I would like to point out that that pesky text that is so often glossed over and ignored mentions ALL the dates. So the Cloti date is also romantic. So Cloti still comes out on top.


and one more thing Anastar. Square never called the LA scene "Low affection." that term is 100% coined by the fans as well as "high affection." So you can stop trying to use the argument, "Square calls it low affection so there's low affection..." or whatever it is you were saying.

 

[Vendel]

Man, even if I fully understand the merit of establishing a solid canon in your universe, I think it's low that optional choices such as Shadow or the romance in FFVII is discounted entirely in future works. It's like they wish for the player's experience to become retroactively linear. Don't most FFs besides X-2 and VII suffer from this painful hands off quality enough as is without some post mortem clarification keeping it all woven into one possibility tree and completely invalidating the time you put into their game?

It's why IX is a favourite of mine, so undeniably videogameish and without much post game material to keep a continuity. It's hard to imagine it separate from the player.

I highly dislike it when they try to ignore people play their games and should be a part of their experience, as they are in Souls series, Dragon Quest, ME and even freakin' Pokemon.

So if I follow you correctly. You are upset that SE puts out materials that explain the story and lay down the correct series of events (for the most part). And you are upset with this because this somehow invalidates your play experience?

I'm not sure I can wrap my brain around this. Do people honestly play a game thinking "I am the one in control here. This is my story"? Most games do have a story involved. And barring that an ending. And barring that you are still playing with what the developers let you play with.

And even though you never mentioned it once, this is the LTD thread. So I can only assume this post was a roundabout way of saying you are mad at SE because they told you who Cloud loves rather than letting you decide that? And since you are upset about that I would also guess that SE didn't choose the same girl (or Barret) that you did?

 

[Guts]

I'm not sure I can wrap my brain around this

I can see people are edgy about their fictatious couples to where hyperbolic strawmen like this phrase are necessary when replying. Does the difference in my opinion so utterly and completely baffle you, to where you are forced to demonize it as something you can barely comprehend as you really hate me having that opinion?

"Your opinion is so stupid I can barely imagine someone thinking this!" Yes, I love you too. But do you have to say exactly that (thinly veiled as something less offensive) as if you're projecting an insecurity?

I'm not going to fight my corner to someone who's made up their mind. You'll probably never know what I mean, some people don't get as immersed in a videogame or particular role as others... But I wanted to ask that.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

...the romance in FFVII is discounted entirely in future works.

Just want to point out that Cloti was canon as of 1997 in the game itself. Even if the player had a hard-on for Aerith, the Lifestream sequence happens as does the Highwind scene (either version, doesn't matter because Cloud loves Tifa in either scenario, the variation is if she 'matches' that affection), so while I understand your overall statement and dislike, it should be clarified that newer installments didn't invalidate the 'romance' of FFVII. Nothing changed. The point was simply hammered home.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can see people are edgy about their fictatious couples to where hyperbolic strawmen like this phrase are necessary when replying. Does the difference in my opinion so utterly and completely baffle you, to where you are forced to demonize it as something you can barely comprehend as you really hate me having that opinion?

"Your opinion is so stupid I can barely imagine someone thinking this!" Yes, I love you too. But do you have to say exactly that (thinly veiled as something less offensive) as if you're projecting an insecurity?

I'm not going to fight my corner to someone who's made up their mind. You'll probably never know what I mean, some people don't get as immersed in a videogame or particular role as others... But I wanted to ask that.

Not only is this an overreaction to a legitimate post, but you've now entirely gone off topic regarding the LTD here.

Either discuss said LTD or please move on. Melodramatic responses towards entirely different topics are not necessary here.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I'm not going back a bajillion pages, but I see Anastar is still trying to push the same nonsense.


I don't think anyone can see how a page that puts C&A and C&T side by side and labels one as optional and the other as narrative fact, is in any way saying that Cloud and Aeris are at all possible outside a dating mini-game that is irrelevant to the actual story.


Cloud and Aeris' picture is not included on the FTOIL page with the intention of establishing them as a possible couple. The caption right under it prevents any such interpretation. It basically says that whoever you get on the date is irrelevant to the narrative as it's entirely player-controlled. It has as much effect on the actual narrative as which chocobos you breed.


The reason it is included, since you keep asking, Anastar, is because FFVII is the only game where you can date 4 people. The deviation is mentioned, and it is then immediately clarified that the romantic scene under the Highwind is the romance supported by the actual narrative.


That page basically labels Aeris as optional and Tifa as what actually happened in the narrative. Which is right in line with what Nojima says – who frames Cloud and Aeris in entirely hypothetical terms when he says “perhaps things would have gone well with Aeris”, but even then he goes on to add a “but”. Whereas Cloud and Tifa's relationship (even if troubled) is the starting premise of CoT and AC. Meaning Cloud and Tifa happened.